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Author Topic: What's the point of romance in fantasy?  (Read 6498 times)

Offline shadowkat678

Re: What's the point of romance in fantasy?
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2016, 09:33:38 PM »
Quote
My position is that it's one tool to bring out a character's humanity like any other. Neither essential or inherent to good or complete characterization. However it's seemed to gain a privileged status amongst the tools of this craft. With many arguing that stories, and even characters are missing something essential unless their love life is touched upon.

That much I can agree on. The rising narcissism and such I can't. Humans have always been narcissists.

A few years ago there was a mailman who ran into a burning house to rescue a little girl, just to go on delivering mail after. When he was tracked down, his response was "She was in danger. Isn't that what anyone would do?"

Another man saved a child, a stranger's child, from drowning in a river, damaging his spine so he was paralyzed while doing so. He later died of his injuries.

There was a boy who saved a bus full of fellow students to die himself. Can't remember what it was from though. Fire maybe? This might have been somewhere between 2-3 years ago.

There was a old man who was a sword expert who ran into his neighbor's house to fight off a robber that broke into her home.

Watch the show "What would you do?". There's a lot of jerks that don't do anything, but there are examples of people standing up for absolute strangers. Some in potentially dangerous situations. How would it be less likely to happen with someone you've fallen in love with? Many of these people weren't in danger themselves. Yet they went in and risked their necks. Why? Because there are decent humans still out there.

How about you respond to some of us as well? Nora isn't the only one replying to you.

These were all very recent.
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Offline Rukaio_Alter

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Re: What's the point of romance in fantasy?
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2016, 10:29:36 PM »
*Sigh* I've tried to avoid this topic from the beginning because it seemed to me to be a fairly silly conceit, but this comment made me so angry I had to chime in anyway.

Quote
What part of the poor dead boyfriend's actions strike you as subconscious reflex, as the girlfriend explains that her boyfriend had her squat down, kept his hand on her head and soothed her, telling her she'd be fine, and everything was going to be ok, until he was shot?
The man obviously kept his cool and managed the situation as best he could.

It's not obvious at all. Because she is in grief, and in front of the world's media. I hate to come off as unfeeling here, but claims made in that context are subject to potential embellishment.
With all due respect, what the actual hell is wrong with you?! You know nothing about this situation, you were nowhere near when it happened, you have no kind of first-hand knowledge about it, yet you're calling this lady honouring her dead boyfriend a liar because it doesn't fit your own petty little worldview? That's a horrible thing to say. You can hide it behind words like 'potential embellishment' all you want, but you're calling her a liar. Despite that fact that, unlike her and her boyfriend, you weren't there. You have zero knowledge of the situation but you feel the need to shit over her story without anything to back your view up other than 'I reckon'. That's not just 'unfeeling', that's disgusting. You're a perfectly reasonable and likeable member of this community, but I think that comment was way out of line.


Besides which, people have given you more than enough examples to show that not everyone goes out for themselves in a panicked situation and that such traits are valued by our current generation or whatever you're trying to argue. And you don't really seem to have kind of argument against that other than 'I reckon that's not true'. It's fine to go against the grain and challenge sacred cows and whatever, but you need some actual evidence other than your own views. At this point in the argument it seems you're twisting facts to suit theories rather than theories to suit facts. Plenty of people are perfectly willing to help/save loved ones or strangers in the case of a dangerous situation, rather than letting self preservation trump all. Not all, but plenty.

Hell, if you want to go into the Psychology of it all, there are evolutionary reasons some of us are wired that way. By instilling in us a need to protect our offspring/mate, that increases the chance that our genes will be passed down to future generation. Plus there's stuff like pack mentality, a need to protect the pack, respect towards those who do etc etc. That's stuff that still remains with us to this day. Certainly, it's impossible to tell whether you'll be able to put it into practise when the time comes, but there are reasons certain people do react that way.

Also, while we're on the topic of Psychology (and so I can get a bit more mileage out of my A-Level on the subject), levels of narcissism probably aren't rising nowadays. Certainly, if you look at the stats from a distance, it may seem that way. But that's because, like with autism, we've gotten significantly better at identifying and diagnosing it. Therefore it's perfectly natural for numbers to seemingly rise. However, in actuality we're just more likely to identify narcissists nowadays who, 10 years ago, would've slipped under the radar. If you adjust for that, the percentage of people who are narcissists is most likely about the same as previous decades/centuries or possibly even less. Also the idea that modern romances have only just started to be about control is just plain hilarious and tells me you need to learn a lot more about cheap old-timey romances.
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Offline shadowkat678

Re: What's the point of romance in fantasy?
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2016, 10:33:26 PM »
*Sigh* I've tried to avoid this topic from the beginning because it seemed to me to be a fairly silly conceit, but this comment made me so angry I had to chime in anyway.

Quote
What part of the poor dead boyfriend's actions strike you as subconscious reflex, as the girlfriend explains that her boyfriend had her squat down, kept his hand on her head and soothed her, telling her she'd be fine, and everything was going to be ok, until he was shot?
The man obviously kept his cool and managed the situation as best he could.

It's not obvious at all. Because she is in grief, and in front of the world's media. I hate to come off as unfeeling here, but claims made in that context are subject to potential embellishment.
With all due respect, what the actual hell is wrong with you?! You know nothing about this situation, you were nowhere near when it happened, you have no kind of first-hand knowledge about it, yet you're calling this lady honouring her dead boyfriend a liar because it doesn't fit your own petty little worldview? That's a horrible thing to say. You can hide it behind words like 'potential embellishment' all you want, but you're calling her a liar. Despite that fact that, unlike her and her boyfriend, you weren't there. You have zero knowledge of the situation but you feel the need to shit over her story without anything to back your view up other than 'I reckon'. That's not just 'unfeeling', that's disgusting. You're a perfectly reasonable and likeable member of this community, but I think that comment was way out of line.


Besides which, people have given you more than enough examples to show that not everyone goes out for themselves in a panicked situation and that such traits are valued by our current generation or whatever you're trying to argue. And you don't really seem to have kind of argument against that other than 'I reckon that's not true'. It's fine to go against the grain and challenge sacred cows and whatever, but you need some actual evidence other than your own views. At this point in the argument it seems you're twisting facts to suit theories rather than theories to suit facts. Plenty of people are perfectly willing to help/save loved ones or strangers in the case of a dangerous situation, rather than letting self preservation trump all. Not all, but plenty.

Hell, if you want to go into the Psychology of it all, there are evolutionary reasons some of us are wired that way. By instilling in us a need to protect our offspring/mate, that increases the chance that our genes will be passed down to future generation. Plus there's stuff like pack mentality, a need to protect the pack, respect towards those who do etc etc. That's stuff that still remains with us to this day. Certainly, it's impossible to tell whether you'll be able to put it into practise when the time comes, but there are reasons certain people do react that way.

Also, while we're on the topic of Psychology (and so I can get a bit more mileage out of my A-Level on the subject), levels of narcissism probably aren't rising nowadays. Certainly, if you look at the stats from a distance, it may seem that way. But that's because, like with autism, we've gotten significantly better at identifying and diagnosing it. Therefore it's perfectly natural for numbers to seemingly rise. However, in actuality we're just more likely to identify narcissists nowadays who, 10 years ago, would've slipped under the radar. If you adjust for that, the percentage of people who are narcissists is most likely about the same as previous decades/centuries or possibly even less. Also the idea that modern romances have only just started to be about control is just plain hilarious and tells me you need to learn a lot more about cheap old-timey romances.

Two things. As an aspie I would like to thank you for bringing up the bit about autism. As a psychology geek, thank you so much for pointing that biology thing out. It's true, and personality is also a very big factor.
Be not a writer, but a Storyweaver. For that, my friend, is how you'll truly leave your mark.

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: What's the point of romance in fantasy?
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2016, 01:36:51 AM »

Quote
I have to agree with ultamentkiller and Peat. Saying that kind of stuff just makes you look like you're raging against a feeling you've rarely felt/don't believe in. You don't want to see other people's proof, you don't want to admit that you might be wrong when no one on this thread agrees with you (making this a poll you loose 1 to many).

Ad Hominem fallacy and Argumentum ad Populum. The number of people who agree on a premise has no bearing on the validity of that premise. The toilet argument is a direct refutation to the fact that people were making arguments like this: "Um...because it's a big part of being human? "

Maybe I'm being too blunt here...
Seriously, what happened to you? I think you need to get off this thread, and talk about it with someone you trust. You've got regrets. And the only way I can tell is because I have them too. The difference is I haven't given up.

Offline Nora

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Re: What's the point of romance in fantasy?
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2016, 01:49:58 AM »
Thanks Rukaio, I was a bit at a loss for words myself, you nail my sentiments.


As for TBM, I'm off this conversation, since you happily say "people don't believe in this", and when put upon written proof that many do, you reply that they don't know what they're talking about, since they weren't put in that situation. First off you can't tell, you don't know them, but more importantly, you were talking about the wider public's opinion, not enlightened opinions.

Newsflash : opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got one. If people's opinions could be dismissed because they weren't based on first hand experience, there would be a lot less magazines for sale, and a lot less youtube videos, a lot less everything, if you catch my drift.

Just because you don't like people disagreeing with your views doesn't mean that you can dismiss it or reshape your exigencies to make arguing harder.

I'm also mildly offended that you won't take my own word of my own experiences as true, so apparently you can only accept "for argument's sake" that people party after a life endangering event... Great, never mind what I personally witnessed. I assembled some serious proofs to back my first hand accounts, but actually can't muster the will to offer rational arguments any more, if they're to be disbelieved, or labelled under "bad characterization".


Quote
The number of people who agree on a premise has no bearing on the validity of that premise.

I don't want to be preposterous and speak for everyone on this thread, but I do believe that this sentence pretty much seals this entire topic.
It appears that even if every single one of us where to offer personal opinions as well as examples, we would only be part of this "wide mass" who is wrong–no matter that this mass of wrong people are the one buying the books that aggravate TBM–and so there is nothing we can do to change his mind on the topic and might as well drop it before we get into more damaging arguments.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 02:07:04 AM by Nora »
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Offline m3mnoch

Re: What's the point of romance in fantasy?
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2016, 02:04:13 AM »
wtf is going on in this thread?  please don't make me godzilla-stomp through this.

Offline CryptofCthulhu

Re: What's the point of romance in fantasy?
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2016, 12:46:49 PM »
This is mildly entertaining.
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