August 09, 2020, 12:54:15 AM

Author Topic: How to Avoid Scaring Away Male Readers - Too Much Touchy Feely Stuff (literally)  (Read 19933 times)

Offline Nora

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We were discussing if he could get alot of women showing up if he offered free sex.

But I just don't understand your point! I'm out, having fun with a couple of friends of mine, when a hot random guys shows up, flirts with me, and offers some casual sex. Would I say yes? That's "spontaneous sex" right?
Why did you even put money in the equation? Many rich men go about in distressed jeans and old jackets, looking half as punk as the average poor student.
Were you implying that women would offer more spontaneous sex if the random guy had a tuxedo, a rolex and drove a jaguar?

A rich guy or a poor guy has nothing to do with "a good shag". If my goal is to have sex, spontaneously and with no consequences with a perfect stranger, I can free swear to you that as long as he's not too poor to afford a shower and clean clothes, I do not give a shit about his bank account or the price of his clothing.

So I'd say, YES, a handsome-ish guy with lots of charm can get spontaneous sex, even being poor as.
Of course he's not going to get as much as his libido wishes. But who ever does?
I think that it's quite odd that you'd even get the richness of a man into account. We're talking about a fantasy setting too, in the end. Is your hero very rich? It's in your power to make him just as irresistible as you'd want him/her to be to get the amount of sex you want to grant them.

If that were the case, the divorce rate wouldn't be 60%. Most women settle down with who is willing to devote themselves to her once she's finished finding herself and done establishing herself in career and is finally ready for marriage. That's the stable guys, which are seen as dull.

haha! Oh come on, this is such a sophist argument. You're telling me people don't settle down with people that please them because 60% end up divorcing? Why, you've never heard of people growing apart, arguing, cheating on each other, or just getting bored of each other? Not everyone makes a wise decision in their initial choice, however enamoured they might once have been.
It certainly doesn't change than they judged the other once decent enough to marry.

I'd say only a minority of the guys in this world (not as low as 1% by any means) are doing anything close to "fornicating". The rest are getting dull sex and reluctant birthday blowjobs. Many get nothing at all.
And some girls also struggle, don't get as much love or sex as they'd wish, or are just very ugly and never get boyfriends. Or many guys and girls stay in dreary, abusive relationships because they're afraid of loneliness.
That's life. Why are we arguing about this?
 
And those guys are shamed for being vain, egotistical, jerks and prissy. They are rarely called sexy.
No, those guys get 50 shades of Grey readers and your average vain woman who think hardcaps are a hot fashion statement.

Exactly, women prefer men hidden. So  I doubt the appeal of the nude male body during sex.

Why would you say something so generalist? Hell NO women don't prefer the men covered.
Here is a meme example :





What you're saying is like me going, "men love nurse uniforms and school uniforms, not to mention lingerie, so men aren't interested in the women's naked body".
There is a lot of everything in this world. Some people have a shoe fetish, some feet fetish. Some men love boobs, some women have a huge fixation for men bums (trust me) or beards and tattooed chests, ect ect.
Of course we don't like our men under some burqa! Some women might close their eyes during sex, but hardly the case for all!
Maybe women get more shy, but some like to see what's going on. Mirrors in the bedroom aren't an erotic thing that were invented for males only.

Those are the limbs and muscles that go into picking things up. Into working. When you say that it looks to me like you're attracted by physical signs of ability to do labour. If you said you found penises to be cocaine for your eyes, something that serves no other purpose beyond sex, then I'd believe women valued sex inherently. But alas most women seem to find penises ugly, nothing but tools, and think it's appearance can be "improved" by cutting it. How many things that have ornamental value are "improved" by taking a knife to it? Zip. None. 

Ok no, this is so weird.
First off, you can't say thing like "if you told me you loved penises, then I'd believe women value X and Y". I'm not women, I'm Nora. I'm the only person I know with a hand partialism.

Secondly, I didn't share this like a casual anecdote. It's a genuine thing, check it out, it's even on the American list of paraphilias : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partialism

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Partialism is categorized as a fetishistic disorder in the DSM-5 of the American Psychiatric Association if it is not focused on genitals and causes significant psychosocial distress for the person or has detrimental effects on important areas of their life. In the DSM-IV, it was considered a separate paraphilia (not otherwise specified), but was merged into fetishistic disorder by the DSM-5. Individuals with partialism sometimes describe the anatomy of interest to them as having equal or greater erotic attraction for them as do the genitals.

Welcome to my world. Where a contact with an appealing hand arouses me probably as badly as a beautiful pair of breasts rubbed in the back of your common man.
I used to spend long minutes staring at my boyfriend doing the dishes, or cooking. I have folders of pictures of hands I took (I'm a professional photographer), and my facebook page banner is a former lover's hands, and my iphone background is a painting of a man holding a cigarette.
An average man with hot hands becomes a hot guy, a handsome guy with horrible hands just creeps me out weirdly. I dread contact with hands I find unappealing, especially the ones of strangers.
This has nothing to do with the ability of a man to do manual labour! And I was born in a posh family in 1990, it's not like I was brought up to value manual labour at all!

When you talk of women wanting to cut penises, I think you're fucking miles off. You've never been in on a discussion between chicks. What do you believe? That we all hate penetration and would rather just be hugged and paid for by a bunch of eunuchs?
Jeepers no! You need to go out with some girls sharing how they rode their man hard, or how they can't believe they didn't get that dude's number off the club cause he had the nicest cock ever, or how they gossip about guys having tiny penises, or how the best penises though aren't so much about length but circumferance and whether they ever bedded circumcised men, ect.
Do you think even lesbians don't use substitute for penetration? Even girls who don't want a man involve use plastic penises or whatever object.
I think you're making very broad generalisation without knowing what women really think or talk about.

My sister - who has a biomedical degree- told me flat out what I'm telling you.

To the risk of sounding cruel... Is your sis the ultimate reference? Is a biomedical degree the utlimate reference in social behaviour study and sexual behaviourism?
Is your sister a better source than proper studies with professional statistics? And then, if stats say that a majority of women are attracted to status first and foremost, what of it?

You can't write about a woman who falls for a man's look and banter? You can't write about a woman who fell for another woman? You can't write about a distopian society where women are the stronger sex and men a superfluous accessory groomed for their physical aspect and prized like sex tys but not much else, kept indoor to vain occupations while amazon-like women wage war and run businesses?

By your own words, display of independence/mystery/non conformity. Someone who generates his own ideas instead of following another. This is one form of displaying leadership quality.

You're bending whatever I say to suit yourself. You were talking about displays of wealth and status, and suddenly a dude in a plain grey jersey who is a loner, has rather unremarkable kind features becomes a mysterious independent, leader type of man?
Who isn't supposed to be independent at 38? He's a student, and an employee. How leader is that?
What do I even care? I'm independent, have my place, my job, my money and my hobbies, that's what matters. 

Of course alot of women hate it too. You don't think millions of men find James Bond shallow trash? That doesn't change the point.
So despite millions of people hating 50 shades, you can still make globalisation off the millions that love it? That's twisted rhetoric.

Yet  women are just too bashful or shamed to buy a book or watch a movie where some female warrior acts like James Bond but with men as the objects of desire?

How many of such movies are made? How many women vs men in the directing/producing of movie industry?

Also :

[youtube]KaTTr5-JmuU[/youtube]

Looks on point? A lesbian, bdsm, amazingly shot movie! Wait, directed AND written by Peter Strickland
Shall we make bets about how much positive versus horrified critics it will receive? And whether any of those critics ultimately matter?
Wait, it has 93% on rotten tomatoes...

Romance stories tend to be by women for women, with men taking very little interest in the genre. So who's going to shame them? Other women?
So? What of romance novels written by men? Like the Black dagger brotherhood?
What a weird example again. Reading is a thing done in the comfort of your own home. no one needs to know what you're reading. If you don't tell anyone, no one will know you enjoyed the adventures of some spanked up lady who killed hundreds of men by snoo-snoo while on her quest for the Dragon Diamond to put on a ring on her pinky.
Why do you argue about that? Once again, should you not write about what you like just because "women tend to do this" and "men tend to not do that"?

If you wish these things to chenge too, the best way is to write different things. Open new perspectives for the readers. Implant in their minds ideas that'll grow and resonate in their life.


On the other point I said society would question why a straight man is so interested in invading a solely female space and speaking for lesbians.
Wow, and why not? Seriously, these sorts of consideration never came to me. By these standards, as a straight woman, I can't write about lesbians, gays, and male masturbation, because why would I have an interest about invading a space and speaking for lesbians or gays or guys?

Also can't write about psychos, murderers, terrorists, cops, teachers, cheerleaders, indian, martian, from the 26th century ect, ect. Who am I to speak for them?

People and I would say almost anyone who hears about a lesbian story written by a straight male would already assume it was written for fetishist reasons.

Let's make a public pole on that forum to see if you're write. I would never assume such a thing. It shocks me that you'd assume "almost anyone" would believe so. First almost never know the sex of the writer I'm reading. Takes me a while to even remember their name, and I tend to know only the last.
Took me forever to realise Hobbs is a woman and still don't remember if Fowles is a man.
I'd be very keen to see a pole on that topic, indeed.


No one hearing about a story about two gay men written by a straight female would assume it was written for fetishist reasons.
Says who? Again, your personal view that differs with mine?
So what about japanese manga? The gay ones, written for the sex scenes, and the lesbian ones? How many, do you think, I drawn or written by men vs women? Do you hear a lot of controversy amongst fans because that hot and steamy, unrealistic lesbian scissoring was written and drawn by a male mangaka?

Do whatever you like. I think, if you're a great writer meant to be an economical success, people would be hooked by the time you have the first sex scene, and if you don't switch from SF/F to erotica then there is no reason why the minority who is a bit put off by your description of the deed doesn't forgive you because your story is enthralling and your style captivating.

And then, I don't know what OP wants, but I'd rather get a small success for a novel I wrote from the bottom of my heart than write whatever plot would hopefully seduce masses.
End up like that...

[youtube]XkLqAlIETkA[/youtube]
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Offline TBM


But I just don't understand your point! I'm out, having fun with a couple of friends of mine, when a hot random guys shows up, flirts with me, and offers some casual sex. Would I say yes? That's "spontaneous sex" right?
Why did you even put money in the equation? Many rich men go about in distressed jeans and old jackets, looking half as punk as the average poor student.

Men derive confidence from status, so the difference would be that the wealthy one would have that secret and be sure of himself more. Like the prince in disguise.
 
My overall point is that you can tell just from hearing the way women talk about men that men are completely de-sexualized. Women talk about men being "cute", an entirely non sexual term. They talk about non sexual  and entirely functional parts of the male body, their arms, all the better to lift your bags with. Their hands, all the better to work the trade. Nails cut as short as possible to not interfere with work, hairstyle short and basic, clothes dark and without patterns, that covers up the body and allows freedom of movement and that isn't tight. Drab looking functional shoes. No signs that the man took alot of time on his appearance, that is vain and unsexy/prissy because it's time he could have spent providing and working. He should be able to hold a conversation but not talk about himself much as it's sexier when he puts her first and he should retain mysteriousness, meaning not be vulnerable. The male body is the butt of easy jokes now. Gone are the d ays where it was a depicted as a thing of artistic beauty, which were male driven art movements in the first place. The value of sperm is inherently low, and a man who talks about how he's sexy is mocked with laughter, as is a man who strips, whereas a man who talks about how hard he works for his wife and kids is given respect as a "Real Man". The only time men are afforded such praise and respect.   

So when women chase men in fiction for sex for the sake of sex, It's a "Gimmie a break" moment, NOT because there's something wrong with a sexually liberated woman, it's the idea of women treating men as if they are sexual creatures with high sexual value when in reality women prefer men de-sexualized.

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Were you implying that women would offer more spontaneous sex if the random guy had a tuxedo, a rolex and drove a jaguar?

Alot less likely to call him a creep too. And he can get away with more conversational blunders. Dr Phil had a show on this where the man with the lexus and expensive clothes caused a total 180 in the women's  warmth compared to when he was dressed down. 

Dr. Helen Fisher, a biological anthropologist at Rutgers University who has studied romantic love extensively, said studies have widely shown that women like men with resources: They have since the beginning of time because they need someone to help take care of their young.

Men with lots of fancy cars who live in the right part of town are sending an evolutionary message that they can provide. And while this study showed that the conspicuous spenders didn't have a long-term advantage, Fisher argued they weren't at a disadvantage either.

"The bottom line is when you take a look around the world, women -- if they can win over the Porsche guy -- they'd rather have the Porsche guy," Fisher said.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1345520/What-women-REALLY-want-To-marry-rich-man-stay-home-children.html

There are exceptions of course and you may be one of them, but you must admit that is the rule^.
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haha! Oh come on, this is such a sophist argument. You're telling me people don't settle down with people that please them because 60% end up divorcing? Why, you've never heard of people growing apart, arguing, cheating on each other, or just getting bored of each other? Not everyone makes a wise decision in their initial choice, however enamoured they might once have been.
It certainly doesn't change than they judged the other once decent enough to marry.

All more likey when the person you married wasn't your first choice. 70% of men aged 20-34 aren't married anyway and in increasing numbers are opting out.
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And some girls also struggle, don't get as much love or sex as they'd wish, or are just very ugly and never get boyfriends. Or many guys and girls stay in dreary, abusive relationships because they're afraid of loneliness.
That's life. Why are we arguing about this?

  Show me these girls who are complaining that they can't get laid at all. (Not I can't find a good man) rather I can't find ANY man who'd touch me. What girl has ever made that complaint?  You going to link a burn victim? That's another "gimmie a break" moment, the idea that a non celibate female hero can't get any despite wanting to. 

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Here is a meme example :

You just linked a bunch of men in the work uniforms of a dangerous job, showing high capacity for work. A job that literally requires the protecting of others. This  doesn't debunk my assertions.   

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No, those guys get 50 shades of Grey readers and your average vain woman who think hardcaps are a hot fashion statement.

They get women, but are still shamed by society. Hell even the woman who goes for them calls them "assholes" and "jerks".

Exactly, women prefer men hidden. So  I doubt the appeal of the nude male body during sex.


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What you're saying is like me going, "men love nurse uniforms and school uniforms, not to mention lingerie, so men aren't interested in the women's naked body".

Bahaha. The difference is that men actually talk about a woman's body like it's sexual. Men don't say things like "her neck is so hot", or her "fingers are amazing" But you're not the only woman who talks like that. You'd get some talking about his eyes or his smile and his teeth or his cleanliness etc. That's the kind of thing you say when you don't find it sexy at all and are trying to convince someone you do. Hell I'd go as far as to say it's the kind of thing a gay man who in no way understands the sexual appeal of women - might say  to convince another he's straight.
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Welcome to my world. Where a contact with an appealing hand arouses me probably as badly as a beautiful pair of breasts rubbed in the back of your common man.
I used to spend long minutes staring at my boyfriend doing the dishes, or cooking. I have folders of pictures of hands I took (I'm a professional photographer), and my facebook page banner is a former lover's hands, and my iphone background is a painting of a man holding a cigarette.
An average man with hot hands becomes a hot guy, a handsome guy with horrible hands just creeps me out weirdly. I dread contact with hands I find unappealing, especially the ones of strangers.
This has nothing to do with the ability of a man to do manual labour! And I was born in a posh family in 1990, it's not like I was brought up to value manual labour at all! [/i]

But your ancestors were. Evolution.

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When you talk of women wanting to cut penises, I think you're fucking miles off. You've never been in on a discussion between chicks. What do you believe? That we all hate penetration and would rather just be hugged and paid for by a bunch of eunuchs?

Maybe I was too vague in my rhetoric. I said cut penises. I didn't say cut penises OFF!  :o (not unless you're sharon Osborne and the ladies from The Talk, they get a good laugh out of that - see youtube) I was referring to women's common preference for a circumcised penis over an uncircumcised one.

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Jeepers no! You need to go out with some girls sharing how they rode their man hard, or how they can't believe they didn't get that dude's number off the club cause he had the nicest cock ever, or how they gossip about guys having tiny penises, or how the best penises though aren't so much about length but circumferance and whether they ever bedded circumcised men, ect.
Do you think even lesbians don't use substitute for penetration? Even girls who don't want a man involve use plastic penises or whatever object.
I think you're making very broad generalisation without knowing what women really think or talk about.

Or alternatively: YOU SENT ME A DICK PIC! PUT IT AWAY I DON'T WANNA SEE IT WHY'D YOU THINK I WOULD!!!!! ARGHH MY EYES!!! PLZ GUYS DON'T SEND ME DICK PICS!!!!

If a man said the same about a boob or vag pic you'd correctly assume he didn't like the look of breasts or vag. Or at all for that matter.

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To the risk of sounding cruel... Is your sis the ultimate reference? Is a biomedical degree the utlimate reference in social behaviour study and sexual behaviourism?
Is your sister a better source than proper studies with professional statistics? And then, if stats say that a majority of women are attracted to status first and foremost, what of it?

The survey follows controversial research published last week by Dr Catherine Hakim of the London School of Economics, which claimed more women are choosing to ‘marry up’ by picking wealthy men for their spouse than in the 1940s.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1345520/What-women-REALLY-want-To-marry-rich-man-stay-home-children.html

More feminism = More women choosing to marry up since 1940? Seems like women are attracted to status. When their relative status increases, they set their sights higher.


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You can't write about a woman who falls for a man's look and banter?

You can.
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You can't write about a woman who fell for another woman?

Again, even straight women find women more sexually arousing than men. I linked the article before.

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You can't write about a distopian society where women are the stronger sex and men a superfluous accessory groomed for their physical aspect and prized like sex tys but not much else, kept indoor to vain occupations while amazon-like women wage war and run businesses?

If women were the stronger sex thats already a very different evolutionary path.

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You're bending whatever I say to suit yourself. You were talking about displays of wealth and status, and suddenly a dude in a plain grey jersey who is a loner, has rather unremarkable kind features becomes a mysterious independent, leader type of man?

You called him mysterious.  That he can carry a conversation about interesting topic shows he's an ideas man.  He may be a 38 Y.o student but there are different kinds of independent. There's socially cut off in the sense that sometimes a man who doesn't wear or act "trendy" can show that he's not a follower in that respect. That he's comfortable setting his own trends. 

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So despite millions of people hating 50 shades, you can still make globalisation off the millions that love it? That's twisted rhetoric.

You're never going to see a universally appealing power fantasy. Not across an entire gender. But Twilight and 50 shades use tried and tested Harlequin Romance formulas. They're juggernaut franchises.



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How many of such movies are made? How many women vs men in the directing/producing of movie industry?


How many female writers are there compared to male? Alot. That logic that it's male dominated, doesn't apply when looking to other mediums and genres, yet it's a rarely seen thing, the story where the female is this Jamima Bond type.

Also :

[youtube]KaTTr5-JmuU[/youtube]
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Looks on point? A lesbian, bdsm, amazingly shot movie! Wait, directed AND written by Peter Strickland
Shall we make bets about how much positive versus horrified critics it will receive? And whether any of those critics ultimately matter?
Wait, it has 93% on rotten tomatoes...

 
Madeleine 4 months ago
male fantasy bs

Do Rotten Tomato critics judge these films the way the public does? Idk.
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So? What of romance novels written by men? Like the Black dagger brotherhood?
What a weird example again. Reading is a thing done in the comfort of your own home. no one needs to know what you're reading. If you don't tell anyone, no one will know you enjoyed the adventures of some spanked up lady who killed hundreds of men by snoo-snoo while on her quest for the Dragon Diamond to put on a ring on her pinky.

So why isn't there more of it? You basically just took shaming out of the equation. As you said no one needs to know.

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Also can't write about psychos, murderers, terrorists, cops, teachers, cheerleaders, indian, martian, from the 26th century ect, ect. Who am I to speak for them?

Straight women can be those things and the latter ones are specuative fiction. Men can't be lesbians, there is a culture of men dehumanising lesbians by way of oversexualization and invading lesbian's boundaries, and there's also a problem with actual lesbian writers being under-represented and not having their stories heard and then a straight man coming along and getting his appropriation of lesbian culture published.  (1 in 20 or so women are gay) are 1 in 20 stories showing lesbian representation? Are 1 in 20 female authors lesbian? I doubt it).

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Let's make a public pole on that forum to see if you're write. I would never assume such a thing. It shocks me that you'd assume "almost anyone" would believe so. First almost never know the sex of the writer I'm reading. Takes me a while to even remember their name, and I tend to know only the last.
Took me forever to realise Hobbs is a woman and still don't remember if Fowles is a man.
I'd be very keen to see a pole on that topic, indeed.

Should try that yeah.
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Says who? Again, your personal view that differs with mine?
So what about japanese manga? The gay ones, written for the sex scenes, and the lesbian ones? How many, do you think, I drawn or written by men vs women? Do you hear a lot of controversy amongst fans because that hot and steamy, unrealistic lesbian scissoring was written and drawn by a male mangaka?

I don't follow Japanese culture. I wouldn't know.
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Do whatever you like.

I think you do what the character needs.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 08:35:51 PM by TBM »

Offline Francis Knight

You are using articles from a famously misogynistic reactionary paper to "prove" your point?

All you proved is you have no argument tbh

No article can prove all women do anything other than exist, and no I do not admit that all women (or even most) just want a rich husband so they can stay at home.

The fact that you keep moving the goalposts in the rest of your points is just the nail in the coffin. You're proving absolutely nothing, and even better* are trying to explain to women what it is like to be a woman. Like we, er, haven't guessed by now, actually being them

And lolling very hard at the attempt to equate being flashed at by random strangers with not liking penises. I love them, and I could tell you why if this was not such a family friendly forum. I don't want people sending me pics, ESPECIALLY people I do not know. Sending them like that is actually a crime.
I have now almost filled in my bingo card


Jeez, and I though I was a cynic!


*sarcasm
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 08:48:37 PM by Francis Knight »
My tongue has been in my cheek for so long, I've eroded a new mouth.


Duellists Trilogy (as Julia Knight) coming soon from Orbit!

http://www.juliaknight.co.uk/

Offline Arry

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Alright, I am going to step in here because I feel like this is one of those cases where people are just never going to see eye to eye or persuade the other to their viewpoint.

Plus, I've found some of the comments in here insulting to women in general by way of blanket statements, gross generalizations and pretty much just sheer inanity and would prefer the discussion moves on or wraps up.
“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only once.”
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Offline TBM

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You are using articles from a famously misogynistic reactionary paper to "prove" your point?

No, the survey of almost 1000 women within the article.

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All you proved is you have no argument tbh

No article can prove all women do anything other than exist, and no I do not admit that all women (or even most) just want a rich husband so they can stay at home.

Most did in that survey.  I also quoted an expert. I don't necessarily agree with the stay at home part but rich husband, yes. I suspect that people are reluctant to accept it because we've all been fed stories of entirely sentimental romances from childhood. Combined with alot of feminist influence, results in the reaction that to say that women want rich husbands = misogyny.

I don't know why people insist that every statement must be couched in "Not all women" in these types of discussions for their comfort level. It should be enough to say at the start, which I did, that we are necessarily talking in generalities, and move on.

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And lolling very hard at the attempt to equate being flashed at by random strangers with not liking penises. I love them, and I could tell you why if this was not such a family friendly forum. I don't want people sending me pics, ESPECIALLY people I do not know. Sending them like that is actually a crime.
I have now almost filled in my bingo card

Men don't mind such pics of women. Illustrating the stark differences in how male and female bodies are viewed by the opposite gender.  When we write under the assumptions that gender doesn't matter, the nuances and truths are lost to gender behaviour.



« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 09:42:29 PM by TBM »

Offline Arry

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Since I evidently wasn't clear enough, I am going to lock the discussion because this conversation has lost purpose/direction and has just degraded to where I don't think there's much useful left to be said. I think everyone has had their say and can just leave knowing not everyone will agree.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 09:57:26 PM by Arry »
“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only once.”
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