March 29, 2020, 07:28:57 AM

Author Topic: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®  (Read 4333 times)

Offline TBM

Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2016, 02:05:25 AM »
The fact that he's a professional author bringing up the hotly debated subject of rape on his commercial blog http://www.robertjacksonbennett.com/books, I find distasteful. Lets leave it at that. 

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He writes female characters extremely well, to be honest, and you can take that from a female reader. Also, I don't think you have to be a woman, or a black/asian/whatever-non-white male (???) to express an opinion on the message of a movie.

"Have to" has no relevance here. He's entitled to free speech.
However why am I hearing this from a man:

(because we really don’t: rape, abuse, and domestic violence are woefully underreported, and are often received with reactions of indifference or scorn).


What exactly qualifies him to speak authoritatively on women's experiences? His writing? Is that it?

So he got mad enough to tell us how mad he got. Is he mad FOR women? Are potentially offended women such hypo-agents in his mind that he feels he has to be mad on their behalf and rant online? 

The conceit that he would take it upon himself to speak for a group that's very capable of sending the message themselves, is using a hero/damsel dynamic.
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Do you actually disagree with his argument?

Yes.
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do you think the depiction of Mrs Dunne is a positive depiction of the empowerment of women?

"positive depictions" and and "empowerment" are limitations of characterization. If offended women want to self impose limitations that's one thing. But it's not his place to do it.


Offline Nora

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Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 10:16:07 AM »
Right.

So you should stop talking about it as well, because it's not your place to do that as well.

But you're right. Disagreeing with people expressing their opinions is totally gonna help on the subject. Somehow reading you makes me agree even more with him.
But let's drop the topic, since you're not a woman.

Also, what you heard from a man is what bare statistic tell anyone who cares to look for them. Also, I could get you the recent video of a reporter explaining how a judge had just suggested a rape victim that "she should have kept her knees together", if only that could help.
However you're the last person I want to have this conversation with, I'm sorry. I'm out of this thread before I get offended.

I'm sorry for bringing Gone Girl up mammae!
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

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Offline TBM

Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2016, 06:10:53 PM »
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Right.

So you should stop talking about it as well, because it's not your place to do that as well.

It's not my place to talk about his conceit?  ???

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Also, what you heard from a man is what bare statistic tell anyone who cares to look for them. Also, I could get you the recent video of a reporter explaining how a judge had just suggested a rape victim that "she should have kept her knees together", if only that could help.

You'd think a man who took it upon himself to speak on women's experiences on serious issues would at least cite sources. As I said, just another white knight online. 

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However you're the last person I want to have this conversation with, I'm sorry. I'm out of this thread before I get offended.

Answer me this. When did I tell you my sex,  gender or gender identity? Because as the Blackmanga, I have never expressed that online. Ever.

People on Lytherus assume female, morons on here assume male. Whatever.

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2016, 06:41:08 PM »
People on Lytherus assume female, morons on here assume male. Whatever.

*sigh*

that's probably because we're just a bunch of cucks around here.

Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 07:05:45 PM »
I am surprised to discover over the last year, and during my months in this forum and its Facebook presence in particular, that gender and sexuality are the electrified third rail of the fantasy genre. Few other topics elicit such strong reactions. No one seems to care about politics or issues of class, etc., to the same extent.

Is this correct, or do you all see other issues that shine as bright or brighter? Or am I mistaken, and only a few outspoken individuals care deeply about gender and sexuality? Is this unique to fantasy, or are the other genres similarly sensitive to these issues?
The Gem Cutter
"Each time, there is the same problem: do I dare? And then if you do dare, the dangers are there, and the help also, and the fulfillment or the fiasco. There's always the possibility of a fiasco. But there's also the possibility of bliss." - Joseph Campbell

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2016, 07:36:23 PM »
no, it's not unique to fantasy.

it's a product of women "intruding" on traditionally male entertainment strongholds.  the primary other example in recent history being gamergate: http://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for-non-geeks-1642909080

essentially angry for this intrusion, gg'ers do "battle" with "social justice warriors" because the world is a zero-sum game where mutually beneficial situations are non-existent.  women are taking away what rightfully belongs to men.

they will often use tactics like "but, i didn't tell you what gender i am" to trigger folks into assuming they're female and "i'm going to assume the voice of a cartoon feminist stereotype in order to mansplain to you what you should be feeling, you idiot woman" in attempts to irritate the unconvertable into angry explosions while winning over those still on the fence with their "wit and understanding".  they even have "guidebooks" on places like reddit or 4chan (i'm not linking to 4chan...) that will explain exactly how to achieve these goals through the use of misdirection and logical fallacies.

because sjws are "morons" who won't know the difference.

it's the basic, fundamental misunderstanding of how inclusive-vs-exclusive worlds rotate around each other that makes them the ire of the public eye.  this misunderstanding is why these explicit-misogynists get lumped into the alt-right conversations.

they can't understand why everyone doesn't just stay in their own little stereotypical worlds and stop trying to take their stuff from them.  dammit -- women are supposed to read stephenie meyer, not george r. r. martin!

Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2016, 08:37:28 PM »
Thanks M3m, you've simultaneously made me smarter, mildly angry, and disappointed in society along an entirely new line.
The Gem Cutter
"Each time, there is the same problem: do I dare? And then if you do dare, the dangers are there, and the help also, and the fulfillment or the fiasco. There's always the possibility of a fiasco. But there's also the possibility of bliss." - Joseph Campbell

Offline cupiscent

Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2016, 01:42:15 AM »
M3m's covered it well. Though I would add that race is also a very volatile subject - for fantasy and other literature - along almost exactly the same lines.

Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2016, 01:59:22 AM »
So I've been digesting M3mnoch's info on the GG thing, and observing other threads here and elsewhere that indicate gender, sexual orientation, and race are hot topics that elicit strong emotions and deep feelings.

So why isn't this forum a hotbed of vitriol? I've seen some threads get fairly contentious here, but almost always very polite, rarely much more than snarky in terms of insult. Why is that? Is it mod-driven discipline or is this just a very restrained cloister that is somehow immune?

Or perhaps I am just missing it all - which is good. If I am, don't show me where to look.
The Gem Cutter
"Each time, there is the same problem: do I dare? And then if you do dare, the dangers are there, and the help also, and the fulfillment or the fiasco. There's always the possibility of a fiasco. But there's also the possibility of bliss." - Joseph Campbell

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2016, 02:12:22 AM »
because our community kicks ass.

we're inclusive around these parts, not exclusive.  it's one of the reasons why it's my favorite place on the internet.

Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2016, 03:04:12 AM »
because our community kicks ass.

we're inclusive around these parts, not exclusive.  it's one of the reasons why it's my favorite place on the internet.
This.
Sometimes I'm also amazed at how we work around here, when I hear (or see) some true horror stories from "outside" - I imagine that people who 'want fights' simply don't last long here, not that I've ever seen them post.

You got lucky to have found us, Gem ;D
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 03:07:44 AM by ScarletBea »
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Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2016, 03:09:49 AM »
You got lucky to have found us, Gem ;D

I won't deny it - I've always had amazing luck. I totaled up all the times I should have died and it's an incredible list of about thirty times I probably should have gotten smeared, but sailed through unscathed. Perhaps it's due to my 2-item list for success I devised when I was young and alone in the world:
1. Be polite.
2. Be lucky.
The Gem Cutter
"Each time, there is the same problem: do I dare? And then if you do dare, the dangers are there, and the help also, and the fulfillment or the fiasco. There's always the possibility of a fiasco. But there's also the possibility of bliss." - Joseph Campbell

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2016, 03:23:20 AM »
1. Be polite.
2. Be lucky.

i'm SOOOOOOOO stealing that!!

Offline Eclipse

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Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2016, 07:00:07 AM »
Arse not ass you damn fecking Americans! I'm so inclusive ;-)

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you do know I'm only teasing y'all
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Offline m3mnoch

Re: Gender-Swapping the Bad Guy®
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2016, 06:59:39 PM »
for those of you familiar with the twitters, here's v.e. schwab rapping about a similar subject (dudebros vs female fantasy writers):
https://twitter.com/veschwab/status/781542404314783744

for the non-tweeters, here's the copy/paste gist:
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Things male writers have done/said to me at conferences/pro events:
1. Insinuated that I'm only successful because I'm young/female/attractive/a pawn.
2. Told me I was in the wrong place when I took my seat on their panel.
3. Assumed I was unpublished and proceeded to explain to me how to write fantasy.
4. Accused me of not being funny/bro enough when I stood up against micro--and major--aggressions.
5. Mocked me in front of my publicists for asking to be taken seriously.
6. Speculated to my face on why I am a bestseller (and no, none of those speculations had to do with talent).
7. Called me self-absorbed for taking pride in my work.
8. Accused me of taking myself too seriously when I asked them to stop their harassment.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 07:13:43 PM by m3mnoch »