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Author Topic: Fight Scenes...  (Read 19652 times)

Offline Nyki Blatchley

Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2015, 12:00:07 AM »
A very good example of that was Lord Howard of Effingham, Lord High Admiral of the English navy that defeated the Armada. He didn't actually know a great deal about seamanship, but he was very good at listening to advice and knowing when to take it. He had loads of great captains under him - Drake, Raleigh, Hawkins and many more, none of whom had the social status to be put in command of the rest - and he used that talent to win. That contrasts with the Spanish admiral, the Duke of Medina Sidonia, who also had little naval experience, but considered it beneath his dignity to take advice from underlings. The result was a resounding English victory.

Offline Elfy

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Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2015, 01:20:35 AM »
Some good points being made here about the goal of a fight, whether it's a battle or an individual one on one conflict, and that's the goal of it for the participants or the director of it. I used to do tae kwon do, and one of our instructors also taught self defence. He was a big man and that coupled with his martial arts knowledge (I think he was a 3rd dan black belt at the time) meant that he wasn't likely to be challenged by too many people, but even he advocated one thing in a self defence situation. You do whatever you can to get your opponent off their feet and once they're done, run like hell away. So, the goal in most one on one situations in the street, and I can't imagine it was much different many years ago to now, is that if you're attacked, is to put your opponent at enough of a disadvantage to buy you time to get away, not to kill them or permanently disable them. On the other hand you've got characters like Inigo Montoya who are just out for revenge on a certain individual at any cost.
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Offline Raptori

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Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2015, 10:43:16 AM »
Some good points being made here about the goal of a fight, whether it's a battle or an individual one on one conflict, and that's the goal of it for the participants or the director of it. I used to do tae kwon do, and one of our instructors also taught self defence. He was a big man and that coupled with his martial arts knowledge (I think he was a 3rd dan black belt at the time) meant that he wasn't likely to be challenged by too many people, but even he advocated one thing in a self defence situation. You do whatever you can to get your opponent off their feet and once they're done, run like hell away. So, the goal in most one on one situations in the street, and I can't imagine it was much different many years ago to now, is that if you're attacked, is to put your opponent at enough of a disadvantage to buy you time to get away, not to kill them or permanently disable them. On the other hand you've got characters like Inigo Montoya who are just out for revenge on a certain individual at any cost.
That reminds me of something my old karate instructor said once. Before showing us how to counter and disarm someone attacking using a knife, he said that if anyone threatened him with a weapon for real he would always surrender immediately. He's the European chief instructor for that karate union so it's not like he doesn't have enough skill, it's just that there's far too much risk involved.
I wish the world was flat like the old days, then I could travel just by folding a map.

Offline Yora

Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2015, 11:02:18 AM »
That is because most strangers who might threaten you have a goal that has nothing to do with harming you. Their goal is to get your money and to avoid an actual fight breaking out (because they might get hurt as well, even if the win). By giving them your money, you have successfully avoided harm.
Unless "keep my money" is a higher priority for you than "stay unharmed".

Offline Yora

Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2015, 11:03:07 AM »
(wrong button)

Offline JMack

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Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2015, 11:46:08 AM »
This thread has been very interesting, and useful already!
In my monthly story entry (not yet posted), I had characters going through a castle to confront an evil wizard. Then I realized, no, they just want to get out of there! Screw confronting the wizard. He'll probably win!
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
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Offline Yora

Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2015, 03:03:32 PM »
One series that really surprised me in its approach to fighting is Kane. Kane is an immortal who has been around since the dawn of mankind and plenty of people consider him to be the most evil man who ever lived and who has killed thousands of very powerful warriors over the ages. And he is one of the worlds best swordsmen, but also very careful when it comes to fighting. Not quite sure why he is constantly running away from enemies who outnumber him, but perhaps he could be killed even though he doesn't age and is afraid of what awaits him in the afterlife, or perhaps he doesn't want to suffer endless torture if he gets overwhelmed and captured. The stories I've read didn't say, but he does bleed and gets weakened by injury, so he tries to avoid getting hit by a blade like everyone else. And even though he is ancient and incredibly skilled, he always tries to play it very safe and still gets beaten up quite badly.
And he is supposed to be the best in the world.

When Kane fights, it usually consists of a lot of running away when he is outnumbered or injured. He has a hard time fighting two enemies at once and doesn't try to take on three if he can in any way avoid it. And Wagner wrote him and his enemies in a way that explains to the reader what they are trying to achieve right now, and how they plan to take out an enemy while minimizing risk to themselves. I find that to make the stories a lot more interesting than if he would just walk through a sea of enemies with their weapons bouncing off of him and cleaving through them with no effort.

Offline silvijanus

Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2015, 04:03:22 PM »
This thread has been very interesting, and useful already!
In my monthly story entry (not yet posted), I had characters going through a castle to confront an evil wizard. Then I realized, no, they just want to get out of there! Screw confronting the wizard. He'll probably win!
I hope this is not based just on my post. Running away would make them deserters. Cold feet, survival instinct, just wanting to stay alive is normal reaction during battle... Fear and stress should have minimum impact on veterans and well trained units special units (like Royal Bodyguards for example).  Lots of details can be involved, my advice is to keep it simple... just don't make a hero riding skateboard down stairs.

Offline JMack

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Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2015, 04:54:54 PM »
This thread has been very interesting, and useful already!
In my monthly story entry (not yet posted), I had characters going through a castle to confront an evil wizard. Then I realized, no, they just want to get out of there! Screw confronting the wizard. He'll probably win!
I hope this is not based just on my post. Running away would make them deserters. Cold feet, survival instinct, just wanting to stay alive is normal reaction during battle... Fear and stress should have minimum impact on veterans and well trained units special units (like Royal Bodyguards for example).  Lots of details can be involved, my advice is to keep it simple... just don't make a hero riding skateboard down stairs.
Skateboard... Bicycle.... Hmmmm
No, stop yourself. No more story ideas.  >:(
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
You are being naive if you think that any sweet and light theme cannot be strangled and force fed it's own flesh. (Nora)
www.starlit-lands.com

Offline Raptori

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Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2015, 05:04:12 PM »
This thread has been very interesting, and useful already!
In my monthly story entry (not yet posted), I had characters going through a castle to confront an evil wizard. Then I realized, no, they just want to get out of there! Screw confronting the wizard. He'll probably win!
I hope this is not based just on my post. Running away would make them deserters. Cold feet, survival instinct, just wanting to stay alive is normal reaction during battle... Fear and stress should have minimum impact on veterans and well trained units special units (like Royal Bodyguards for example).  Lots of details can be involved, my advice is to keep it simple... just don't make a hero riding skateboard down stairs.
Skateboard... Bicycle.... Hmmmm
No, stop yourself. No more story ideas.  >:(
Better to just put them all into one single story I think, otherwise you'll have far too many WIPs (or WsIP?).  ;)
I wish the world was flat like the old days, then I could travel just by folding a map.

Offline Elfy

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Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2015, 01:22:30 AM »
Some good points being made here about the goal of a fight, whether it's a battle or an individual one on one conflict, and that's the goal of it for the participants or the director of it. I used to do tae kwon do, and one of our instructors also taught self defence. He was a big man and that coupled with his martial arts knowledge (I think he was a 3rd dan black belt at the time) meant that he wasn't likely to be challenged by too many people, but even he advocated one thing in a self defence situation. You do whatever you can to get your opponent off their feet and once they're done, run like hell away. So, the goal in most one on one situations in the street, and I can't imagine it was much different many years ago to now, is that if you're attacked, is to put your opponent at enough of a disadvantage to buy you time to get away, not to kill them or permanently disable them. On the other hand you've got characters like Inigo Montoya who are just out for revenge on a certain individual at any cost.
That reminds me of something my old karate instructor said once. Before showing us how to counter and disarm someone attacking using a knife, he said that if anyone threatened him with a weapon for real he would always surrender immediately. He's the European chief instructor for that karate union so it's not like he doesn't have enough skill, it's just that there's far too much risk involved.
I think Seth also advocated that. He was mainly directing his comments along the lines of if someone accosts you wanting to molest you and they're not armed, then do what you can to get them down, then run. We did an exercise once where one participant would grab your wrist and you had to react. Most people lost that one, because they tried to get free. The first thing you were meant to do was shout as loudly as you could right in their face to shock them and then use your free hand to slap or claw at their face, this makes most people let go, then you run. We found the female members of the class were really good at slapping, we tried this out on the pads and some of them had very powerful arms.

Offline Nyki Blatchley

Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2015, 06:16:14 PM »
One series that really surprised me in its approach to fighting is Kane. Kane is an immortal who has been around since the dawn of mankind and plenty of people consider him to be the most evil man who ever lived and who has killed thousands of very powerful warriors over the ages. And he is one of the worlds best swordsmen, but also very careful when it comes to fighting. Not quite sure why he is constantly running away from enemies who outnumber him, but perhaps he could be killed even though he doesn't age and is afraid of what awaits him in the afterlife, or perhaps he doesn't want to suffer endless torture if he gets overwhelmed and captured. The stories I've read didn't say, but he does bleed and gets weakened by injury, so he tries to avoid getting hit by a blade like everyone else. And even though he is ancient and incredibly skilled, he always tries to play it very safe and still gets beaten up quite badly.
And he is supposed to be the best in the world.

When Kane fights, it usually consists of a lot of running away when he is outnumbered or injured. He has a hard time fighting two enemies at once and doesn't try to take on three if he can in any way avoid it. And Wagner wrote him and his enemies in a way that explains to the reader what they are trying to achieve right now, and how they plan to take out an enemy while minimizing risk to themselves. I find that to make the stories a lot more interesting than if he would just walk through a sea of enemies with their weapons bouncing off of him and cleaving through them with no effort.
It's many years since I read the Kane stories (I loved them, and they've been quite an influence on me) but I think he could be killed, though he healed better than mortals.

Offline Elfy

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Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #72 on: April 09, 2015, 12:38:50 AM »
I don't know if anyone here has watched it, but there's a TV show called Kingdom about an MMA gym. In an early scene in that one of the lead characters encounters a couple of 'home boys' cruising around during his morning run and they nearly run him off the road. He remonstrates, they get out of the car and one of them pulls a gun. He's a trained MMA fighter, as well as a super villain (it's played by Frank Grillo, who is in Captain America: The Winter Soldier), so he takes them both out with his MMA skills, leaves them laying on the road and continues his run. The incident comes back to haunt him later in the show, so that's another consequence of a fight. I have to admit the fight scenes in the show are very well choreographed. I'm also wondering if Grillo really has MMA experience, because he played a similar character in Warrior as well.
I will expand your TBR pile.

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Offline JMack

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Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #73 on: April 09, 2015, 12:46:39 AM »
Speaking of MA, something I don't follow, there's Gina Carano in Haywire. Love that movie.
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
You are being naive if you think that any sweet and light theme cannot be strangled and force fed it's own flesh. (Nora)
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Offline Rostum

Re: Fight Scenes...
« Reply #74 on: April 10, 2015, 06:14:08 PM »
Yora I feel has nailed it. A while bak. When someone is likely to die you don't fight unless there is much to gain or much to lose. If you have to fight you want to make sure you have the advantage of numbers and ground and you don't want to get drawn into a fight if you are likely to hang for it.
However if someone tries to unsheath a sword at close quartets sticking a knife in them before it's half drawn may be your best option.
Fighting two (or more) is never something you look to do and if you have to do so you break out of that situation and don't get back into it.

Fighting in lines or shield walls works because the whole is greater than the parts.
 You don't look to kill anyone you look to stay alive and keep the men at you're shoulder unharmed eventually if all goes well there is less of them than you and then you work their flanks until you can encircle them, if they are silly enough to let you. I suspect that usually one side took enough hurt to withdraw as no one is looking to die.

I have no real idea what a fight to the death is like. I do have 20+ years steel weapons combat, mostly reenactment and would like to think that gives me a little insight  into how you get out of a fight and live to tell the tale.