July 19, 2019, 01:30:42 PM

Poll

Should contest winners be ineligible to win the next one or two contests?

Yes, two months is fair
0 (0%)
Yes, but one month is enough
1 (5.6%)
No, there is no reason to change the rules like this
15 (83.3%)
I don't care
2 (11.1%)

Total Members Voted: 18

Voting closed: October 20, 2016, 01:09:22 PM

Author Topic: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?  (Read 12512 times)

Offline DaveEllis

Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2016, 02:04:18 PM »
I'm new to the site, and am considering taking part in the contest going forward as a way of kickstarting my writing.  I wouldn't be put off entering if the same few kept winning, but I wouldn't expect to have a chance of winning. 

I would prefer an anonymous posting, for instance one of the moderators posting all the stories as they receive them, to give a little more fairness to the comp, as it prevents voting for the name rather than the story.

Offline Raptori

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Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2016, 02:22:23 PM »
I would prefer an anonymous posting, for instance one of the moderators posting all the stories as they receive them, to give a little more fairness to the comp, as it prevents voting for the name rather than the story.
This would also prevent people from deciding not to vote for someone because they've won it several times recently (which is a good thing imo). Not sure if people actually do that, but someone (m3m?) mentioned it above. Only way to find out how it would affect the votes is to give it a go!
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Offline xiagan

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Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2016, 02:43:39 PM »
I got it. We're trying this next month!
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Offline night_wrtr

Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2016, 02:45:13 PM »
I like the anonymous posting idea.

EDIT: also, should all the stories be posted all at once when the submissions are final?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 02:50:00 PM by night_wrtr »

Offline Nora

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Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2016, 03:11:29 PM »
I dislike the anonymous posting idea because it'll basically kill off the discussion thread entirely, as if people say "yay, finally posted!!" You'll know it's them.
It also means I can't re read and edit my own story once it's submitted without sending X many emails to the moderator in charge.
It also means we can't talk about the ideas we had or misgivings we encounter. Like "hey I've decided to write in present tense and this is bothering me, what do you think?" > only one present tense story means it's yours.
The critic thread is pretty dead too, so we'd never talk about our stories basically...

I think that implementing a forced review time for example, to make sure everyone gets a constructive critique, would be way more appealing (at least to me) than an anonymous thread.
I'll completely recognize Jmack, rukaio or m3m or tebakutis entries. I'll also enjoy working on the stories less if we can't talk about them. The liveliness of the discussion thread is the only thing that half convinces me to keep working on this month's idea.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 04:04:18 PM by Nora »
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Offline Raptori

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Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2016, 03:55:55 PM »
Alrighty then. Hopefully I didn't screw the spreadsheet up, but I'm pretty sure these are accurate!

Important facts before we start: the total number of contests run so far is 65, and the total number of winning stories is 71 (due to tied months).

Entries before first win for all winners:

People who have won with their first entry account for 40% of all winning stories. Repeat victories only account for 31%, first-time winners 69%.




Regulars who have not yet won a contest:

Obviously there a huge number of contest entrants - 242 - but only 47 have entered 5 contests or more. Of those, only 14 have not yet won one (30%). They tend towards the lower number of total entries, with a couple of outliers. In other words, if you consistently enter the contest, your likelihood of having won one increases. Duh.  :P




Total wins and total entries for contest winners:

At a glance, it looks like these stats show that the people with multiple contest wins have a) entered many times, and b) won within their first three or four entries, with one exception who won with their sixth entry. I'll let someone else work out if these have any more insight to give!







I dislike the anonymous posting idea because it'll basically kill off the discussion thread entirely, as if people say "yay, finally posted!!" You'll know it's them.
People posting "yay, finally posted!!" isn't exactly a discussion though. There's arguably more to discuss if the identities are not known - who the author of each story is, which regulars have entered and which haven't, etc.

It also means I can't re read and edit my own story once it's submitted without sending X many emails to the moderator in charge.
It's not difficult to hold off on submitting until the final day or two, which would mean you'd have just as much time to get edits in.

It also means we can't talk about the ideas we had or misgivings we encounter. Like "hey I've decided to write in present tense and this is bothering me, what do you think?" > only one present tense story means it's yours.
Depends on what's being discussed. In that example, you could easily say "I'm thinking about writing in present tense, what do you guys think of it", which leaves it unclear as to whether or not you'll actually do so in the end. Just requires a bit of thought about what others will understand from your comments.
 
The critic thread is pretty dead too, so we'd never talk about our stories basically...
Nothing stopping everyone discussing which entry was written by whom after the fact, which could actually be a pretty interesting discussion, especially if people note down who they originally thought each story was written by.

I think that implementing a forced review time for example, to make sure everyone gets a constructive critique, would be way more appealing (at least to me) than an anonymous thread.
As in people would be forced to critique others work? Doesn't sound good to me. If people are interested in critiquing, there's already a thread for that. If it's mostly empty, then it means people aren't interested, so forcing them to critique means you're forcing them to do something they don't want to do. Don't see how that could be anything but an awful idea!

I'll completely recognize Jmack, rukaio or m3m or tebakutis entries. I'll also enjoy working on the stories less if we can't talk about them. The liveliness of the discussion thread is the only thing that half convinces to keep working on this month's idea.
People rarely give away everything about their story while discussing it though, so it's a matter of keeping things more vague rather than not discussing at all!
I wish the world was flat like the old days, then I could travel just by folding a map.

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2016, 03:58:08 PM »
I would prefer an anonymous posting, for instance one of the moderators posting all the stories as they receive them, to give a little more fairness to the comp, as it prevents voting for the name rather than the story.
This would also prevent people from deciding not to vote for someone because they've won it several times recently (which is a good thing imo). Not sure if people actually do that, but someone (m3m?) mentioned it above. Only way to find out how it would affect the votes is to give it a go!

yup.  that was me.

mostly, i was channeling my inner dialog over the last year when i would read jmack, tebakutis, or rukaio stories.  i'm like, "dammit.  that's in my top tier.  stop writing such good stories so i can vote for someone else!"


I dislike the anonymous posting idea because it'll basically kill off the discussion thread entirely, as if people say "yay, finally posted!!" You'll know it's them.
It also means I can't re read and edit my own story once it's submitted without sending X many emails to the moderator in charge.

ooooh.  good point.  i hadn't thought of that.

tho, @night_wrtr has a good point in that they need to be posted at once anyway -- i think that fixes those issues.

i suspect we'll only do this for one month once @xiagan comes to grips with how much work it is to post and edit 15 stories.


It also means we can't talk about the ideas we had or misgivings we encounter. Like "hey I've decided to write in present tense and this is bothering me, what do you think?" > only one present tense story means it's yours.

meh.  i think that's okay.

if someone REALLY wants to put the sleuthing in, they can totally figure it out regardless.  there are online tools that recognize author prose.  (the google keyword is "stylometry")


The critic thread is pretty dead too, so we'd never talk about our stories basically...

I think that implementing a forced review time for example, to make sure everyone gets a constructive critique, would be way more appealing (at least to me) than an anonymous thread.

this is a wholly different matter.

tho, forcing it?  erg.  i'd hate to do anything that kills off participation.  that strikes me as something that would.

makes me wonder, tho, if we as a group could figure out some low-friction tools to help with critiques.

one of my favorite short-but-sweet tools is one i learned from mary robinette kowal.  basically, just fill this in:
Quote
Regarding my story, tell me --
Something Awesome:


Something Boring:


Something Confusing:


Something Unbelievable:





I'll completely recognize Jmack, rukaio or m3m or tebakutis entries.

you won't recognize mine!  i'll just skip the image next month and fade into anonymity . . .

so, ha!  take that!

you don't know me.

i'm an ENIGMA!


I'll also enjoy working on the stories less if we can't talk about them. The liveliness of the discussion thread is the only thing that half convinces to keep working on this month's idea.

i disbelieve that any discussion thread you're a part of wouldn't be lively.

srsly, i think we've got this.  i'm hopeful that the anonymity will bring in more new writers and that will make up for any bumpy transition things.

but, yeah, we'll see.

at the very least, it's easy (for everyone but xia!) and worth a try.

Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2016, 04:10:46 PM »
@m3mnoch  I want to thank you - you're my filter. I just wait for your posts and /nod.
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Offline Nora

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Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2016, 04:18:44 PM »
That's the point. I won't be part of any discussion that completely and utterly prevents me from mentioning my story.
My "present tense" example was only an example. People asking "hey, is it fine to do space pirates?" is just another example. Who do we ask that if asking publicly cancels out the idea of anonymity?

All I'm saying is that I'm personally tittering on the edge of dropping the contests, because I haven't been very motivated recently, for various reasons, but I think that the impossibility to discuss anything but wide topics (aka be in another, more theme oriented Kings Paws?) is not going to help my motivation at all.
I like people knowing it's my work. Anonymity is cool when it comes down to choice...

What of people who sometimes re-use characters or older stories? Like Rukaio, or when I got Hades out of his box again? I write another Hades short story, and everyone will know it's mine.

I just don't understand why we want to go for another change, when we've very clearly voted in wide majority that we're happy with the contest as it is?
Maybe make a poll over anonymity if you want, but I'll vote no on that.

And yes m3m, I was thinking of similar mini reviews. Can't remember who was doing them for a while? Night? Having the option to write a couple of quick notes about what we like/dislike about each story would make mini reviews a thing, maybe? I mean, it's easier than having to re-read stories for the people who asked for reviews, when we're already busy writing the next month's short. But it should remain optional. I just think that if we try it out and like it, it could sort of install itself as well. If 10 people give you a short 2/3 lines critic, you'd feel like doing the same as you read through everything I'm sure.

"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

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Offline night_wrtr

Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2016, 04:21:45 PM »

It also means I can't re read and edit my own story once it's submitted without sending X many emails to the moderator in charge.
It's not difficult to hold off on submitting until the final day or two, which would mean you'd have just as much time to get edits in.


Yeah, I am terribly bad at posting my story as soon as I finish, then edit it every other day until the end. Nothing major, but a word here or there, misspellings, etc. But, I agree with Raptori that we could wait until its actually done, then submit it as the final version when the time comes.

Quote from: Raptori

The critic thread is pretty dead too, so we'd never talk about our stories basically...
Nothing stopping everyone discussing which entry was written by whom after the fact, which could actually be a pretty interesting discussion, especially if people note down who they originally thought each story was written by.

I think that implementing a forced review time for example, to make sure everyone gets a constructive critique, would be way more appealing (at least to me) than an anonymous thread.
As in people would be forced to critique others work? Doesn't sound good to me. If people are interested in critiquing, there's already a thread for that. If it's mostly empty, then it means people aren't interested, so forcing them to critique means you're forcing them to do something they don't want to do. Don't see how that could be anything but an awful idea!

this is a wholly different matter.

tho, forcing it?  erg.  i'd hate to do anything that kills off participation.  that strikes me as something that would.

makes me wonder, tho, if we as a group could figure out some low-friction tools to help with critiques.

one of my favorite short-but-sweet tools is one i learned from mary robinette kowal.  basically, just fill this in:
Quote
Regarding my story, tell me --
Something Awesome:


Something Boring:


Something Confusing:


Something Unbelievable:



I agree forcing a critique may drive people away, however a simple template like m3m posted might be easy enough for people to drop one or two sentences about it if they wanted. I also think that the critique thread would likely take off because we have been holding back our comments through the month. It would be a great time to engage in a conversation in more depth because at the point we have a critique thread, everyone has read each others stories and can actually provide some insights or convos. I know during the month when someone posts a comment about their story and things they have tried, I forget about the comment entirely by the time the story is read. Perhaps, maybe, possibly, we could have our own little Cambrian Explosion of critique/discussion threads.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 04:26:17 PM by night_wrtr »

Offline Nora

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Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2016, 04:32:11 PM »
I also think that the critique thread would likely take off because we have been holding back our comments through the month. It would be a great time to engage in a conversation in more depth because at the point we have a critique thread, everyone has read each others stories and can actually provide some insights or convos. I know during the month when someone posts a comment about their story and things they have tried, I forget about the comment entirely by the time the story is read. Perhaps, maybe, possibly, we could have our own little Cambrian Explosion of critique/discussion threads.

I don't agree with that.

I tend to forget who wrote about what, mostly because I read as stories are published through the month if I'm done with mine early, and refresh my memory when doing the final read through for voting, but I usually vote early enough that by the time votes come out I've mostly forgotten people's work, and completely forgot what gripped me about it.
So doing a critique thread after would not help any more than it does now. What if story X was yours or someone else's? Cool. It's no motivation to go and re-read everything to link it to everyone, to be able to critique again. Critiquing post vote release has always been a process of re-reading the person's story for me. Anonymity would change nothing in that.

I re-read my story very often before posting, but posting formats the story differently and allows for better correction. I like being able to micro edit, and I always do it extensively if I post early enough.  :-\
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Offline Raptori

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Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2016, 04:41:35 PM »
That's the point. I won't be part of any discussion that completely and utterly prevents me from mentioning my story.
My "present tense" example was only an example. People asking "hey, is it fine to do space pirates?" is just another example. Who do we ask that if asking publicly cancels out the idea of anonymity?
All I'm saying is that I'm personally tittering on the edge of dropping the contests, because I haven't been very motivated recently, for various reasons, but I think that the impossibility to discuss anything but wide topics (aka be in another, more theme oriented Kings Paws?) is not going to help my motivation at all.
I like people knowing it's my work. Anonymity is cool when it comes down to choice...

What of people who sometimes re-use characters or older stories? Like Rukaio, or when I got Hades out of his box again? I write another Hades short story, and everyone will know it's mine.
@m3mnoch has already answered that thoroughly imo!

I just don't understand why we want to go for another change, when we've very clearly voted in wide majority that we're happy with the contest as it is?
Maybe make a poll over anonymity if you want, but I'll vote no on that.
"I don't think winners should be barred from the contest" does not equal "I think the contest should remain exactly as it is". It's great as is, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying an anonymous month to see if it makes it even better.

Another poll is definitely the best approach. I'd definitely vote yes!

And yes m3m, I was thinking of similar mini reviews. Can't remember who was doing them for a while? Night? Having the option to write a couple of quick notes about what we like/dislike about each story would make mini reviews a thing, maybe? I mean, it's easier than having to re-read stories for the people who asked for reviews, when we're already busy writing the next month's short. But it should remain optional. I just think that if we try it out and like it, it could sort of install itself as well. If 10 people give you a short 2/3 lines critic, you'd feel like doing the same as you read through everything I'm sure.
What's stopping you from doing mini-reviews right now? Waka did them for ages (at least I think it was waka), nothing to prevent others from doing the same.

I also think that the critique thread would likely take off because we have been holding back our comments through the month. It would be a great time to engage in a conversation in more depth because at the point we have a critique thread, everyone has read each others stories and can actually provide some insights or convos. I know during the month when someone posts a comment about their story and things they have tried, I forget about the comment entirely by the time the story is read. Perhaps, maybe, possibly, we could have our own little Cambrian Explosion of critique/discussion threads.

I don't agree with that.
We don't know whether it'll cause those things to happen because we haven't tried it out. You don't know either, it's all opinion. If it doesn't have a positive effect then at least we tried. It'd just be for one month.
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Offline Nora

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Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2016, 04:47:55 PM »
Nothing is stopping me to do mini reviews, and nothing is stopping anyone else. Yes, like I said, someone was doing them, and we could all try to do so.
I'm done voting this month and I already forgot most of the stories I voted on, so I'm not gonna do it. I have enough stuff to do irl at the moment, and I'm ages late in my critic group. No incentive really.

But we're discussing changes.
All I'm saying is that I'd rather have a change on the way we approach critic than on the way we post.

But yeah, I think we should poll this.
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Offline Raptori

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Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2016, 04:57:54 PM »
All I'm saying is that I'd rather have a change on the way we approach critic than on the way we post.
It'd be good, but are there any ways that could actually be done? Not sure changing the contest in any way would make it work without driving away people without the time or inclination to critique. Maybe if there were a couple of people who really wanted it to become a more common thing, and they did so every month, it'd encourage others to join in, but that feels like a long shot to me!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 05:07:34 PM by Raptori »
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Offline Eclipse

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Re: Should a contest winner be ineligible to win the next contest(s)?
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2016, 05:31:46 PM »
I think anonymous posting be fun to try out but  I don't  really think it matters, I always vote for the best stories not the authors and I don't think anyone here votes for who the authors are.
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