Fantasy Faction

Fantasy Faction Writers => Monthly Writing Contest => Topic started by: m3mnoch on December 06, 2016, 08:20:48 PM

Title: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on December 06, 2016, 08:20:48 PM
so, i had a thought in the shower this morning -- because, duh, that's where i do all my best thinking.

what if we took the top 3-5 stories each month and assembled a "Fantasy Faction Contest Anthology 2016"?  if you think about it, four stories per month, at 1500 words each, is 72k words.

also known as a book.

i was thinking we could even put it up on the kindle store (or somewhere) and the proceeds could go towards funding the server costs and author events and such for the site.  or, maybe even a professional editor for the 2017 edition.

while we poor, lowly authors wouldn't necessarily get paid for something we already do willingly for free, we'd hopefully get a skosh more name recognition out there in the wild, right?  of course, anyone can opt out of their stories being included any time.

as to how we'd determine which stories would be included, i was thinking choosing based on gold, silver, and bronze medals each month.  it should come out to 3-5 stories per month because we usually have ties and the like.

actually, lemme go back and look at the stories for this year.

stand by.

. . .

kk.  i'm back.

so, just going by 3rd place and better finishes, these are the stories through the first 10 months of this year that would make the theoretical cut:
Quote

january:
1 - But, I’m a F#@%ing Dragon! - m3mnoch
2 - A Twist Two Far - Rukaio_Alter
3 - Narrative Friction - OnlyOneHighlander
3 - The Wall of Going Forth - Nestat
3 - Kendrick -  night_wrtr
3 - SKELETON WALKS INTO A BAR - Jmack
3 - Sponge Riot - tebakutis

february
1 - Mistaken Identity - Rukaio_Alter
2 - Bulls and Horses - m3mnoch
3 - TROJAN HORSE - Jmack

march
1 - A Gift for the Nightmare Man - tebakutis
2 - Mare Ridden - Patchwork Mind
3 - Keep Turning - Hedin

april
1 - Everything in Frame - tebakutis
2 - The Hound of Arnas - Nora
3 - Our kind of Watchman - Peat

may
1 - The Magical Lamp - Lanko
2 - The Strangled Heart - tebakutis
2 - Sweet Release - m3mnoch
3 - How I Met Your Mother - Jmack
3 - The Wolf of Tales - Nora

june
1 - One Last Drink - tebakutis
2 - The Gambit - ArcaneArtsVelho
3 - Curse the Schedule - m3mnoch
3 - Cat Country 100.3FM - Lady_Ty

july
1 - Conan meets Nietzsche - Lanko
2 - The Frosted Glass - tebakutis
3 - The Cake Won't Kill You - Anonymous

august
1 - Goldenfoot, The Brave - night_wrtr
2 - Potion, Potion, Potion - Anonymous
3 - Love Potion - m3mnoch

september
1 - The Rule of the Curse - SugoiMe
2 - The Treasure of Saint Curio - tebakutis
3 - The Precious Cargo - Elfy

october
1 - Where there's a will
2 - Is it Really Graverobbing if it's for Science?
3 - Harry
3 - Blink


hrm.  looking at that list, it's looking like 3.8 stories per month, so 6k words per month average seems about bang on.

so, is this something that anyone is interested in?  what do you guys think?  should i pull together a sample book and we can see what it looks like?
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Nora on December 06, 2016, 08:31:28 PM
I, of course, definitely support this idea. Find it very cool. You can use all my three stories, and any more that might crop up.
Now you almost make me sad I skipped three months this year.

I'd love to get a kindle version of this.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: xiagan on December 06, 2016, 08:56:03 PM
I have thought about this before but shied away from it because of the work.
I edited, formatted and published books before (at my university) and self-pubbed a small anthology too, so I know exactly how much work it is.

But we have a great bunch of talented writers, critique givers and artists (anthology cover will be @m3mnoch's goat in daisy dukes of course) here, so if we spread the work on many hands, it may be doable!
If Marc agrees with this (and I don't see why he shouldn't. I think he thought about this too at some point but more important stuff got in the way), we would have a hell of exposure through the main site and the FF twitter/facebook.

As cool as this sounds, we have to consider the danger for our contest too.
If this takes off, our contest will get a lot more exposure too, more writers will join and besides the problem of voting for 30+ stories, the temptation to cheat (i.e. have five family members vote for their story) will be higher if this means to be part of the next anthology.

So what do you think?

Oh, and if we do this, I would take February out. I'm not sure having Fanfic in there would be a good idea...
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: ScarletBea on December 06, 2016, 09:13:18 PM
I realy liked the idea...
and then I read this:
As cool as this sounds, we have to consider the danger for our contest too.
If this takes off, our contest will get a lot more exposure too, more writers will join and besides the problem of voting for 30+ stories, the temptation to cheat (i.e. have five family members vote for their story) will be higher if this means to be part of the next anthology.
which is a very real danger :-\

So... dunno...
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Nora on December 06, 2016, 09:13:52 PM
Agreed on fanfic.

However, if we do the work of assembling this anthology ourselves, then we can also decide to keep it for ourselves? I mean, it can be a pay-per-print thing, or as I said, I'm happy with an ebook, and these are easier to put together.
Getting the anthology could be a 'present' of sorts for the people who participated in the contest.

Whether we want more coverage or not... Hmm... Not sure that I do want to read 30+ stories, but it might happen either way, since the contest did go bigger each year, right?
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on December 06, 2016, 09:39:54 PM
personally?  i feel like it will be a bit more realistic to think the dozens of new writers flooding into our contest in the terms of "anthology sales".  my off-the-cuff estimate would be in the neighborhood of dozens per year -- and most of them to the existing members.

i don't suspect the contest would be that much more popular if we had a neatly-packaged anthology for readers.  i mean, it's not like posting the winning stories on the main site draws an enormous crowd currently.

don't get me wrong, i feel like we can continue the trend upwards, but i feel like it would be more in the neighborhood of 20%, not 200%.

there are a LOT of reputable short story anthologies out there published monthly.  i doubt if we'd contend with them with our once-per-year release, and only if you place top-three, and only if you write to our specific theme.

and, honestly, i don't feel like the fanfic thing is that big of a deal either.  but you guys know me on that one.  i've got a fairly loose view of copyright laws.  however, if you think about it, we're currently publishing them anyway on a site that's asking for money -- so how is this any different?
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: tebakutis on December 06, 2016, 10:01:21 PM
EDIT: My post is super long and rambling. Short version.

Like the e-book idea, if implemented as follows. Only include the stories that win each month (the ones we publish anyway). Make this clear in the guidelines that already state they'll appear on the site. All this is is an alternate method to view what is already published anyway, so no more motivation for "cheating" than already exists. Give e-book away free to people who donate any amount through e-mail, don't sell directly.

LONGER POST BELOW

Hmm, an interesting idea fraught with peril! In other words, it must be a m3mnoch post. (Just kidding :p) I like the idea, but see issues.

To start, we all know (or should!) that Fantasy-Faction is funded by donations. So if we were to make an e-book of contest stories to support the site/forums, I feel like it should be sent to people who donate as a thank you gift for donators, not sold directly. Basically, it would be a nice bonus for people who donate to keep this site we all enjoy running. If that were the method of distribution (I imagine Overlord could add a link to the e-book in his "Thank you for donating!" automated e-mail) you would get a nice feel good treat for helping the site run.

As to the problems will selling it, there are two big reasons I think selling the e-book directly (say, on Amazon or other services) is a bad idea.

1) Even if authors opt-in and agree, it's still technically selling an author's work in exchange for "exposure", which has become somewhat of a dirty word to many authors today (and something more established authors advise newbies against, because it's so often BS). Also, what if they *don't* agree?

In this case, F-F is well known enough that I think there would actually be truth to exposure, but *only* if the included authors already have existing books for sale elsewhere. Because the authors aren't getting paid for their donated stories, they'd only benefit if someone liked a donated story enough to buy the author's OTHER WORK. So do you list their other work in the e-book? If you don't, why not? And what about people who have no other work to sell? It just gets complicated and messy fast.

2) Amazon and NOOK take a cut of every e-book they sell (that's why they'll sell anything!) and in some cases, a big cut (I assume other services are similar). If you were to price the e-book at less than 2.99 on Amazon, for instance, they would take 75% of the book price. That leaves on 25% of the price as an actual donation to F-F ... the rest is a donation to Amazon. >.>  If you put the price above 2.99, Amazon's royalty drops to %35 ... but they're still siphoning money away from F-F, which seems to defeat the point.

Then, of course, there's also the financial and tax stuff. Amazon requires a real SS / bank account / etc before you can sell stuff, which means someone (presumably Overlord) would have to set that up on Amazon, which seems like a lot of trouble. If you have someone else running the account with their bank account, then donating the money to Overlord, you're adding more complexity and probably more fees. While setting up an Amazon author account for this might be something Marc is willing to do (if you're reading the thread, Marc, chime in!) there's still the issue of Amazon's cut.

So, in summary: since F-F is already publishing winning stories on the site ANYWAY, providing them in e-book format doesn't seem to be doing anything but offering another way to consume them. But it would make more sense as a reward (donate whatever amount you want, and receive a free e-book!) that a book sold on a vendor with a set price.

This assumes you could get a volunteer to format the stories in a readable format (Kindle and Nook are different, and I'm not sure about others) and actually create the e-book (I know you do it automated m3m, but I'm not sure how it compares to the quality vendors expect, as I usually read online). There's very specific things you have to do to get a book to look "good" in Kindle and Nook (I know, since I've published books!), to get chapter headings to work, and so on. So though you almost certainly know that, I just want to call it out for discussion.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on December 06, 2016, 10:23:41 PM
Give e-book away free to people who donate any amount through e-mail, don't sell directly.

i LOVE this idea!


Hmm, an interesting idea fraught with peril! In other words, it must be a m3mnoch post. (Just kidding :p) I like the idea, but see issues.

. . . and also this!  ha!


To start, we all know (or should!) that Fantasy-Faction is funded by donations. So if we were to make an e-book of contest stories to support the site/forums, I feel like it should be sent to people who donate as a thank you gift for donators, not sold directly. Basically, it would be a nice bonus for people who donate to keep this site we all enjoy running. If that were the method of distribution (I imagine Overlord could add a link to the e-book in his "Thank you for donating!" automated e-mail) you would get a nice feel good treat for helping the site run.

or links to the patreon folks!

it'd be like another asset to help balance the cost/benefit equation in our favor!

bam!


As to the problems will selling it, there are two big reasons I think selling the e-book directly (say, on Amazon or other services) is a bad idea.

1) Even if authors opt-in and agree, it's still technically selling an author's work in exchange for "exposure", which has become somewhat of a dirty word to many authors today (and something more established authors advise newbies against, because it's so often BS). Also, what if they *don't* agree?

In this case, F-F is well known enough that I think there would actually be truth to exposure, but *only* if the included authors already have existing books for sale elsewhere. Because the authors aren't getting paid for their donated stories, they'd only benefit if someone liked a donated story enough to buy the author's OTHER WORK. So do you list their other work in the e-book? If you don't, why not? And what about people who have no other work to sell? It just gets complicated and messy fast.

2) Amazon and NOOK take a cut of every e-book they sell (that's why they'll sell anything!) and in some cases, a big cut (I assume other services are similar). If you were to price the e-book at less than 2.99 on Amazon, for instance, they would take 75% of the book price. That leaves on 25% of the price as an actual donation to F-F ... the rest is a donation to Amazon. >.>  If you put the price above 2.99, Amazon's royalty drops to %35 ... but they're still siphoning money away from F-F, which seems to defeat the point.

Then, of course, there's also the financial and tax stuff. Amazon requires a real SS / bank account / etc before you can sell stuff, which means someone (presumably Overlord) would have to set that up on Amazon, which seems like a lot of trouble. If you have someone else running the account with their bank account, then donating the money to Overlord, you're adding more complexity and probably more fees. While setting up an Amazon author account for this might be something Marc is willing to do (if you're reading the thread, Marc, chime in!) there's still the issue of Amazon's cut.

sold!


So, in summary: since F-F is already publishing winning stories on the site ANYWAY, providing them in e-book format doesn't seem to be doing anything but offering another way to consume them. But it would make more sense as a reward (donate whatever amount you want, and receive a free e-book!) that a book sold on a vendor with a set price.

This assumes you could get a volunteer to format the stories in a readable format (Kindle and Nook are different, and I'm not sure about others) and actually create the e-book (I know you do it automated m3m, but I'm not sure how it compares to the quality vendors expect, as I usually read online). There's very specific things you have to do to get a book to look "good" in Kindle and Nook (I know, since I've published books!), to get chapter headings to work, and so on. So though you almost certainly know that, I just want to call it out for discussion.

i spent a few weeks working out a publishing pipeline for my own stuff.  it includes all the interesting front and back matter and that sort of business.  i should just copy-paste it and assemble a sample version so we can see what it looks like.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Nora on December 06, 2016, 10:42:03 PM
Why publish only the first one though? What's the motivational point for readers who already follow and read the published stories? It's only 12 stories, you can read that in a 30min sitting.
While I think the donation idea is great, I believe m3m idea of including more work is better. Sometimes the difference between 1st and 2nd or 3rd is only one vote, and the quality isn't so different, it's all so subjective, so I think the "top" stories are often great and all worth the read, even if they don't always match what I vote for, and making a yearly anthology might as well be a fatter book rather than a leaflet.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on December 06, 2016, 10:45:30 PM
Why publish only the first one though? What's the motivational point for readers who already follow and read the published stories? It's only 12 stories, you can read that in a 30min sitting.
While I think the donation idea is great, I believe m3m idea of including more work is better. Sometimes the difference between 1st and 2nd or 3rd is only one vote, and the quality isn't so different, it's all so subjective, so I think the "top" stories are often great and all worth the read, even if they don't always match what I vote for, and making a yearly anthology might as well be a fatter book rather than a leaflet.

i don't think he meant only one story per month.  or, at least, i didn't read it that way.

i was thinking teb meant that we'd only pick from stories that were already published -- which is ALL the stories in the contest, not just the winner.  meaning, we wouldn't include random stories by our authors.

or did i understand that wrong?
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Nora on December 06, 2016, 10:53:32 PM
Quote
Only include the stories that win each month (the ones we publish anyway). Make this clear in the guidelines that already state they'll appear on the site.

Speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on December 06, 2016, 11:20:05 PM
Quote
Only include the stories that win each month (the ones we publish anyway). Make this clear in the guidelines that already state they'll appear on the site.

Speaks for itself.

oh.  i see what you're saying.  i bet he meant the ones published on the main site.

yeah.  ALL the stories entered in the contest are published.  anything we write here, even if it's not a winner which was "published on the home page" is still considered published.  if you're posting your story in the contest, fantasy faction basically consumes your first publication rights of that story.

http://writersrelief.com/blog/2013/11/what-is-considered-previously-published-writing/
http://www.rightsofwriters.com/2010/11/can-i-say-that-my-story-was-not.html

it's important to note, this does not apply to the private writing group section of the site.  it's just the public contest part.  (and public critique requests, i suppose)

i would imagine that's why most of the working writers in our forums don't ever enter stories into our contests.  folks like cameron, cupiscient, jrtroughton, etc.  but, i could be wrong.

anyway.

my long, boring point is:  stories in the contest are already published.

regardless, we'd ABSOLUTELY get permission from all the authors to publish their work in the anthology.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Nora on December 06, 2016, 11:39:22 PM
For once it's me who thinks I might have misunderstood? I didn't think it was an issue of right publication?
My argument is for size. Of course all entries count as "published", since even posting on a blog or fb count as published.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Lanko on December 06, 2016, 11:46:11 PM
Will we be able to revise for typos or that odd sentence that totally missed us in the final week when we wrote it?
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on December 06, 2016, 11:52:11 PM
Will we be able to revise for typos or that odd sentence that totally missed us in the final week when we wrote it?

of course!

possibly even heavier editing?  adjustments based on critiques?  even if it pushes over the wordcount?

/shrug

whatever it is that we agree to.  it would be our thing, after all.  i just wouldn't want to accidentally damage the stories after they've already been voted in.


edit:  tho, i suppose there is some value-add there.  a "director's cut" of the story, if you will.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Lanko on December 07, 2016, 12:09:06 AM
Yes, just typos or better polishing, wasn't thinking no heavy modifying (though it's up to you). After all, it's ours (and the forum's) image for eternity! Specially if you're someone who just loves to write in the last days ( ::)) and sometimes have to rush.

After all, people love authors who manage to get their ideas across clearly and economically, which means that readers can easily follow what they write. Readers prefer clear, economical prose.

Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: tebakutis on December 07, 2016, 01:27:10 AM
EDIT: Full disclosure - I am not disagreeing with the alternative methods, and could easily be overthinking this.

oh.  i see what you're saying.  i bet he meant the ones published on the main site.

Yes!

yeah.  ALL the stories entered in the contest are published.  anything we write here, even if it's not a winner which was "published on the home page" is still considered published.  if you're posting your story in the contest, fantasy faction basically consumes your first publication rights of that story.

Right, we've had that discussion before, but where it starts to get murky is when real money becomes involved (even for donations).

You published your story on a public forum and people read it - No problem!

You published your story on a public forum, and people read it, and then people pay real money (not to you, but to F-F) and for paying money, you get an e-book with the story - Tricky!

I think it's when the real money gets involved that you could possibly get into trouble or murky territory from an author's rights standpoint. *I* don't have any objection, and many people who have posted here do not, but that's not to say that other folks wouldn't (and wouldn't be correct in having one).

The reason I'm suggesting we only include the "winner" stories is because they are already published on the F-F main page (which is more "official" - the story was published by F-F, not the author) whereas all the other stories are just published here on the forum, by the author themselves. It's a subtle difference, but one we should consider. And yes, me posting on the forum myself counts as first publication, but it's still not being given away in exchange for money changing hands, and not in the same way as those F-F chooses to publish on the main site (which is said up front).

Basically, I am being super overly cautious. :)

i would imagine that's why most of the working writers in our forums don't ever enter stories into our contests.  folks like cameron, cupiscient, jrtroughton, etc.  but, i could be wrong.

anyway.

Tangent: I've often wondered that too! It's never stopped me from submitting, because I write these stories in a couple of hours (two tops) and consider them great writing exercises, but not necessarily work I would ever publish. But I also write really fast. I can see how people who write slower and have actual writing deadlines for paid work might be hesitant to devote time to the writing contest. For me, at least, every story I write for here is written fresh for here, so I'm not losing anything.

my long, boring point is:  stories in the contest are already published.

regardless, we'd ABSOLUTELY get permission from all the authors to publish their work in the anthology.

Yes, but as I'm pointing out (just to be cautious) published on public forum for free != published in an e-book that is sent to folks in exchange for real money.

As soon as you involve the exchange of real money for these stories (even donations) I think the ethics of everything get a bit trickier. By only including the story that wins each month, you can much more clearly lay out how the contest works simply by changing the contest description to "If your story wins, it will be published on the Fantasy-Faction website and (with your permission) included in our donation reward anthology".
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Lanko on December 07, 2016, 01:52:51 AM
Confirming with the author would solve all problems with that, I suppose? Specially if it's written (an e-mail or something)?

But I totally agree with @tebakutis being cautious with that.

And then I will add another topic in here: One of the winner stories is mine and is a parody featuring Conan and Nietzsche. Technically Conan *should* be public domain since 2006 or even before, but there's a lot going on regarding that, but I'm not sure if it only applies to films, comics or toys and similar merchandising. Couldn't exactly find it.

Sherlock passed through the same thing, he's public domain, just can't use some features/characteristic added in certain books released in the 40s that got somehow 95 years of copyright. Except for that, he is free game to be published by anyone. Might be the case with Conan too, but who knows, I couldn't find it.

No problem ditching that story if need be just to be safe, though.

Also, it sadly means our Fanfic month entries will have to go too, as @m3mnoch and @Jmack entries also features Conan. And stuff from Jim Butcher, GRRM and Moorcock.
I don't believe any of them would sue us or FF, but their publishers might, since the rights are in their hands and there is money involved. So I believe it's safe to cut the entries from Fanfic.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: The Gem Cutter on December 07, 2016, 03:31:44 AM
My strong agreements:

I think it's a fine idea, if we think the culture here can support growth and change. There's no risk of failure. In fact, all the risks lie in the area of success.

I strongly second the caution. So strongly, in fact, that I typed it twice: I strongly second the caution. I advise whomever is officially responsible for the site to contact a lawyer.

There's two kinds of people who hire lawyers - those who hire them to prevent problems from arising, and those who hire them to get themselves out of problems. The first option is cheaper but is often considered unnecessary; the second option is much more expensive, and utilized heavily by those who thought option 1 was too pricey. I'd get a consult, because F-F is just a website, it has no legal anything, and it certainly has no rights; whatever legal entity exists beneath and behind it carries all the risk. If no business entity exists, then it's the individuals themselves who carry that risk. If one does exist, the type and origination of that entity matter. Not to me, and probably not to many of you. But to some, it's  potentially very important.

Letting my imagination wander, I see the site itself has inherent value - that makes it targetable. (Just because I am paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you). For the price of a lawsuit, someone could acquire a website with a huge following that's just dying for banner ads and (un)official book/author plugs. The fact it is not used for monetary gain now doesn't mean it's not looked at that way, or couldn't be made that way.

My ignorance of intellectual property rights is profound, but I do believe they are not the same in every country. Claiming publication rights carries with it a geographical context in many situations, and acquiring consent is potentially meaningless if you don't know what legal entity or entities are looking at that consent, and in what context.

Consider: the exchange of things, even non-monetary things, depending on whose Government we're talking about, is often considered taxable - or even just reportable. If it's considered compensation, especially. Advertising is compensation, and in this day and age, defining "advertising" is a three-hour debate. All this relates to inherent value, but our opinions on what is or isn't valued are irrelevant. It's what the law says that will matter, probably in more than one place. And while a single transaction may seem like no big thing, a few hundred of them can begin to tally up fines and, you see where I am pointing.

Again, I love the idea - and this post was not intended to come across as a "sky falling" warning. Perhaps all my concerns are baseless - I hope they are. I'm just doing my job as a friend to bring them up so they can be dismissed, or taken into consideration.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Lady Ty on December 07, 2016, 06:15:28 AM
Wonderful dea and would be happy to support, but would prefer no benefit to Amazon in any way at all only to the FF site.

Cat Country was fun between friends, but is cram full of less than subtle and some direct references to other peoples' work as take-off/parody/fanfic so shouldn't be included, much as I would be honoured. Would be sure to upset someone. ;)
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Nora on December 07, 2016, 11:00:31 AM
Why are we all scared of offending people when website's like Wattpad are oozing bad fanfic through every pore?
It'd be an anthology of pre published works. Do fanfic communities refrain from doing anthologies because they write fanfic?  ???
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Lanko on December 07, 2016, 05:05:48 PM
Why are we all scared of offending people when website's like Wattpad are oozing bad fanfic through every pore?
It'd be an anthology of pre published works. Do fanfic communities refrain from doing anthologies because they write fanfic?  ???

But those are free. Well, I think it is? Or... actually they're not?

I think some here want it free for everyone and some for a very cheap price to help the forum.
If it's free, available for everyone, then no problem, keep all the Fanfic. Or even if it's free with a donation button.
If it's paid and we put it in the Amazon store, *maybe* we should consider removing Fanfic. I don't really know if there could be implications of actively using characters like Harry Dresden, Daenerys Targaryen, etc and charging for it, even if we say it was a Fanfic themed month.

But of course I support the anthology.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: ScarletBea on December 07, 2016, 05:13:33 PM
Also note that F-F is a british-based site, so I assume the legal environment would be UK and not USA (it's very different - that's all I know about it).
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: JMack on December 07, 2016, 05:45:30 PM
For the record I am ALL FOR THIS!!
 ;D

Just have to figure out how "Skeleton Walks Into a bar" works in an ebook.
Worked great on the site by using spoilers.....
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Lanko on December 07, 2016, 06:12:06 PM
For the record I am ALL FOR THIS!!
 ;D

Just have to figure out how "Skeleton Walks Into a bar" works in an ebook.
Worked great on the site by using spoilers.....

Hyperlinks on the choices! Pretty much like selecting a chapter in the index table.

That's something our publisher, m3m & noch house, can do. I think.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: TOMunro on December 10, 2016, 11:58:17 PM
I think it's a great idea.  It would need a cover though! anybody any good at drawing?

I agree with the distribution through the website to FF supporters/donators (rather than through amazon etc - which would be complex)

12 does seem like a small number of stories though.

If you made it 52 that would work out at about 80,000 words and you'd be giving people a short story a week for a year.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: night_wrtr on December 12, 2016, 06:24:27 PM
Been thinking about this and still can't decide if I fall into the "yay" or "nay" category.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on December 13, 2016, 03:28:56 PM
i've got a two hour train ride this morning.  maybe i'll try to get something cobbled together for us to look at as a test.


For the record I am ALL FOR THIS!!
 ;D

Just have to figure out how "Skeleton Walks Into a bar" works in an ebook.
Worked great on the site by using spoilers.....

Hyperlinks on the choices! Pretty much like selecting a chapter in the index table.

That's something our publisher, m3m & noch house, can do. I think.

i was thinking something simpler, like numbered sections.  old-school gamebook style.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on December 21, 2016, 12:59:48 AM
okey dokey.  i went ahead and finished up a sample book as sort of a test to see where the holes are.  it's kind of a mess in that it needs better formatting for the introduction on each month, the table of contents needs some work, some stylesheet polishing, actual metadata content, a real cover -- all of that before we dig into the individual story formatting.

*shrug*

it's kind of fun, tho.

==================================================================
- Anthology Downloads -
standard epub:
http://m3mnoch.com/static/ff-books/2016-contest-anthology-2016-12-20.epub

kindle mobi:
http://m3mnoch.com/static/ff-books/2016-contest-anthology-2016-12-20.mobi

rich text document:
http://m3mnoch.com/static/ff-books/2016-contest-anthology-2016-12-20.rtf
==================================================================
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: night_wrtr on December 21, 2016, 01:45:22 AM
How many pages is the average anthology?
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Lanko on December 21, 2016, 01:57:20 AM
Depends what the anthology is about. I'm reading 2016 Best SFF Novellas Anthology and it has ~530 pages.

Anyway, so far (without November and December) there are 38 stories. Assuming all of them reaches the limit of 1500 words (some don't), we have a total of 57k words.

Assuming manuscript format (250 words per page) we have a total of 228 pages. Of course, published stuff usually appears to have 300-350? So our anthology can range from 163 to 228 pages long, depending on the formatting.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on December 21, 2016, 02:43:23 PM
i just opened the rtf in word and looked at the count.  so far, we're at 52k words.  it'll probably end up around 62k-65k once we add the 1750-word time traveling stories and the top dragons.

so yeah, what lanko said.  probably about 200 pages in book format.


edit:  oh.  i forgot to add this bit about page count.  these are some popular ones on goodreads and are anywhere from 300-800.  so, ymmv, i guess.  *shrug*

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9633064-hexed
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20168816-rogues
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/77232.Legends
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: night_wrtr on December 22, 2016, 06:21:49 PM
I like it @m3mnoch
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: night_wrtr on December 29, 2016, 07:24:51 PM
okey dokey.  i went ahead and finished up a sample book as sort of a test to see where the holes are.  it's kind of a mess in that it needs better formatting for the introduction on each month, the table of contents needs some work, some stylesheet polishing, actual metadata content, a real cover -- all of that before we dig into the individual story formatting.

*shrug*

it's kind of fun, tho.

==================================================================
- Anthology Downloads -
standard epub:
http://m3mnoch.com/static/ff-books/2016-contest-anthology-2016-12-20.epub

kindle mobi:
http://m3mnoch.com/static/ff-books/2016-contest-anthology-2016-12-20.mobi

rich text document:
http://m3mnoch.com/static/ff-books/2016-contest-anthology-2016-12-20.rtf
==================================================================


Bumping this to get input from those that haven't voice an opinion. Surprised there hasn't been more commentary on this. A few have already voice their's for Yay or Nay, so wanting to hear from the others out there.

@m3mnoch
@Rukaio_Alter
@OnlyOneHighlander
@Nestat
@Jmack
@tebakutis
@Patchwork Mind
@Hedin
@Nora
@Peat
@Lanko
@ArcaneArtsVelho
@Lady_Ty
@Anonymous
@SugoiMe
@Elfy

Did I miss anyone?
@xiagan You too!
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: tebakutis on December 29, 2016, 07:46:10 PM
Bumping this to get input from those that haven't voice an opinion. Surprised there hasn't been more commentary on this. A few have already voice their's for Yay or Nay, so wanting to hear from the others out there.

I downloaded it to my Kindle Fire. Looks pretty slick! The only problem I can think of is possibly some concern with the rights for the images introducing each theme. For example, is it possible the Deadpool panel in the "Breaking the Fourth Wall" section might become a copyright problem (I'd guess it's Marvel's IP) if this ebook is distributed as a thank you for a donation to Fantasy-Faction?

It'd be nice to get a quick opinion from someone who knows legal laws in the UK. Since Fantasy-Faction is based there and the anthology would be a thank you for a UK citizen/site, I don't think US laws would apply, but I'm not a lawyer.

Also, it might be interesting to add a set of quick bios at the back of the anthology? A paragraph or so about each author and how you can find out more about them?

No worries or objections other than my lingering concerns about the low probability of legal issues. I'm actually really impressed that m3mnoch's script handles formatting this well!
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: JMack on December 29, 2016, 07:53:17 PM
Thanks for bumping. This was posted during a time I was out of touch, so I didn;t see it.
Will now be taking a look!
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: ArcaneArtsVelho on December 29, 2016, 08:30:24 PM
Bumping this to get input from those that haven't voice an opinion.
Nay.
I don't see the point of it. And I don't really want my story to be a part of it.

But don't let my withdrawal/absence stop you (as a whole) if you like the idea.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Hedin on December 29, 2016, 08:35:59 PM
I hadn't even noticed that I finished in the Top 3 and would even be included.  I am definitely all for this and agree that it should be used for donations to the site (either through Patreon or setup through some other way), the legal stuff I'll let people smarter than me figure that out.  I wouldn't mind having the chance to go back and make some minor grammar type edits (or more ideally have someone else look at it) but I want to make sure if we did that we kept within the spirit of the competition and only allow marginal word count increases.

Also, with regards to artwork I know we have several people post their art on the forum so maybe some of them would like to take a shot and come up with something for the monthly themes.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: night_wrtr on December 29, 2016, 08:38:38 PM
Also, with regards to artwork I know we have several people post their art on the forum so maybe some of them would like to take a shot and come up with something the monthly themes.

Great idea!
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: eclipse on December 29, 2016, 08:44:14 PM
It be more work but I would like to see old fashioned illustrations at the start of the stories.we don't seem to do them anymore.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Raptori on December 29, 2016, 09:20:31 PM
Happy for ours to be included, and we'd love to make the cover!  :P
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Nora on December 29, 2016, 09:26:42 PM
I gave my opinion already!!
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Rukaio_Alter on December 29, 2016, 09:55:58 PM
Yeah, I'm cool with my stories being included in this too.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: eclipse on December 29, 2016, 10:05:28 PM
I gave my opinion already!!

You shouldn't be so quietly reserved be a loudmouth like umm m3m  ;D
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Lanko on December 29, 2016, 10:08:56 PM
I will vote yes.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on December 29, 2016, 10:27:33 PM
I gave my opinion already!!

You shouldn't be so quietly reserved be a loudmouth like umm m3m  ;D

LOUDMOUTH WHO'S A LOUDMOUTH I'M NOT A LOUDMOUTH!!
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: eclipse on December 29, 2016, 10:31:13 PM
Loudly assertive!
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Lady Ty on December 30, 2016, 12:55:17 AM
Like what m3m's done very much, happy to be included as long as parodies give no offence but my 2 illustrations were taken from the google  real radio station so should not be used and the cat was from google  images so maybe should not be there either anyone's  big bossy cat would do. F-F can have my story gladly but not for Amazon at all.

Sorry to be brief but Christmas and  visitors have left me with exhaustion and flu but am indulging in audiobooks between drifting on and off to sleep today. waves weakly  :)
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Lanko on December 30, 2016, 01:07:25 AM
Loudly assertive!

Not loud enough, he didn't increase font size.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Nora on December 30, 2016, 02:18:43 AM
I don't feel like I need to strongly assert anything, so I'm happy with what I said, and too lazy to repeat myself.

I don't feel that strongly about the whole thing.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: eclipse on December 30, 2016, 08:34:21 AM
I don't feel like I need to strongly assert anything, so I'm happy with what I said, and too lazy to repeat myself.

I don't feel that strongly about the whole thing.

Lol you so funny!

you did realise I was joking I don't  think you reserved at all, I think you very confident in letting you views be known which is great.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Nora on December 30, 2016, 11:16:39 AM
Oh I never doubted that. I thought you wanted more fire on this very topic, that's all!
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: xiagan on December 30, 2016, 12:32:41 PM
I like it.

But:
- we need to know what @Overlord thinks and if he wants it or not
- we need to proofread/edit the stories. They have rough edges (that's in the nature of the content and to be expected) and need to be polished.
- we need to know if and what legal issues are or could be

There should be a small bio of every author and maybe a small description of our contest and of FF.
I like @Eclipse's idea with the old fashioned illustrations.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Nestat on December 30, 2016, 09:45:51 PM
I don't mind FF using a story I published here in an anthology, as it's already publicly available on the site. I might want to edit it a bit though.

The US & UK are both signatories to the Berne Convention, which will cover copyright issues.

The issue of "free for prestige" is moot, because all the work has already been written for fun. We've already consented to its free publication... by publishing the work ourselves for free on the site.

As good practice, I think an author not being paid for the work should retain all rights to the work.

If all the authors agree to have their work included, can agree on whether it's free or paid-for, and who gets the money then there's no problem. I think the money can either go to support FF or to charity (my preference). We could even donate it somewhere like Cool Earth (https://www.coolearth.org) and contribute to supporting the important Amazon.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: SugoiMe on January 03, 2017, 02:23:45 AM
I'm just seeing this now @m3mnoch, so sorry for late reply (but is it so surprising I'm lagging in my replies? Seems to be a bad tend of mine. I'm not even gonna use busyness has an excuse). I like the anthology, don't mind my work being showcased.

My only comments, which you and some other people may have said already, is to edit the stories for little grammatical/spelling errors and fixing up formatting. When you're doing the formatting, double check to see how different sections between scenes look. Some have a funky design, and I spotted one with just an "*". If we're putting those scene breaks in there, they should probably be consistent (I like the little design).

Those are my two cents.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Lanko on January 03, 2017, 02:36:14 AM
Well said about the *

I'm one who uses them in stories because I have no idea if two Enters will have the double line break desired effect in formatting, so I just make it sure with an *

Actually, that's a good question to ask @m3mnoch ...

Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on January 03, 2017, 02:16:11 PM
oh, absolutely.

when we for real assemble the book, we'd make sure everyone gets all the edits they want in there and the scene breaks are all consistent.

/thumbsup
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: The Gem Cutter on January 05, 2017, 08:21:19 AM
It's a long thread, so pardon me if it's been considered and discarded, but has there been any talk of building the winning stories out? How much would be an issue, and I assume overall space is limited and perhaps only the top stories would fit. But I thought that many stories could be greatly enhanced with even a small (10-15%) extra space. Most of the critiques point to things the writer just had no room for. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: JMack on January 06, 2017, 01:27:31 PM
@The Gem Cutter,
For me, it would be too much to do that for this particular publication. I have a number of my T-F stories that deserve a build-out, and I'm starting to work on one of them. And mostly they aren't ones that would go in this snook.

Your overall point is right on the money. Writing for the 1,500 limit is a wonderful but often frustrating exercise. And one I plan to keep doing  ;D
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: m3mnoch on January 06, 2017, 03:27:02 PM
yeah.  i think the most effort we can ask of folks would be some light editing.  expanded stories aren't as much an issue about space as they are about coordinating longer re-writes with half a dozen different authors and getting it done in a timely fashion.

personally, i would LOVE to see the custom monthly illustrations.  but, again, we're back at that dreaded triangle:  time, money, or quality -- pick two.
Title: Re: Contest Anthology 2016
Post by: Elfy on January 11, 2017, 05:16:44 AM
Sorry for not commenting earlier, but I've got no problems with my work being included in this.