January 22, 2018, 08:10:16 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 127621 times)

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2505 on: December 13, 2017, 04:55:04 AM »
Doug Jones WON!

Also the poor horse Roy Moore badly rode over a hill to vote has a Twitter account with 11.4k followers.

https://twitter.com/RoyMooresHorse

Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2506 on: December 13, 2017, 08:23:46 AM »
Doug Jones WON!

Well, how about that?

Still, the fact that he won by a very slim margin against such an abhorrent, walking bag of bigotry is cause for concern. Alabama clearly has a serious problem.

And it is very unnerving how much the free press is under attack by certain segments of America. A free press is THE most important aspect of democracy, I feel.

Last semester I took a course in Critical Thinking, and it really left me feeling that these days it should be a grade school course.
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Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2507 on: December 13, 2017, 08:33:03 AM »
Very glad US has some good news today for a change.  ;D

After all the hurdles the voters had to overcome, 'they persisted' and it paid off. Thanks mainly to a high percentage of Black voters turning out in force.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2508 on: December 13, 2017, 09:39:01 AM »
I have maintained for years that in a democracy you do not vote for a candidate but against one. I cannot think of a better example. Can this result be passed off as fake news? Can Moore now be prosecuted or does the statute of limitations apply?

Now about the 48% who feel voting for a sexual predator and bigot because he is prepared to tell other people what they can do with their bodies in the name of god.
I believe anywhere else in the first world Moore would have stepped down due to the allegations against him or lost by a landslide.
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Offline Bradley Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2509 on: December 13, 2017, 09:49:27 AM »
Doug Jones WON!

Well, how about that?

Still, the fact that he won by a very slim margin against such an abhorrent, walking bag of bigotry is cause for concern. Alabama clearly has a serious problem.

And it is very unnerving how much the free press is under attack by certain segments of America. A free press is THE most important aspect of democracy, I feel.

Last semester I took a course in Critical Thinking, and it really left me feeling that these days it should be a grade school course.

Yeah I'm less celebratory and more horrified that 49% of Alabama voted for him.  So their next candidate can be a serial killer and a rapist just not a pedophile and they'll get that extra 1%  It's just grossly disturbing. 

A friend had this to say, which I pretty much agree with:
Quote
Jones did not win. Moore lost. Anti-trump doesn’t exist until 2018 and you see Mississippi, Texas, Kansas, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Utah, Wyoming, Nebraska, Arizona, and Nevada, and Tennessee go BLUE. So far this is one state BARELY electing a Democrat vs a pedophile. BARELY. Democrats are STILL weak.

Democrats still have to hold WA, OR, CA, MT, ND, MN, NM, HI, WI, MO, MI, IN, OH, FL, VA, WV, PA, NY, ME, VT, RI, MA, CT, NJ, DE, MD. And if you think Republicans can’t win in North Dakota, Montana, Missouri, Indiana, Ohio, and West Virginia in 2018……YOU AIN’T PAYIN’ ATTENTION. So one little Alabama election now and six losses in 2018 means 57 Republicans in the senate. they could easily also turn FL, MI, NM, or Maine to make a 60 filibuster proof senate.....

not every republican running in those races will be pedophiles.

the pundits on these channels are so full of shit. these are the same people who claimed that Hillary was a shooo-in. Shhhhhh. a pedophile BARELY lost. that is NOT a sign of strength for Democrats. If anything, it shows how strong Republicans still are. 49% voted for a PEDOPHILE instead of a Democrat! cray!

So this is pretty revealing it just came out today and explains WTF is going on with the DNC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKKjYLst-5I

Definitely worth watching but all the DNC's money mysteriously went to 5 consultants and the executive committee isn't even given access to the budgets.  Bernie Sanders's rep tears them all apart.

Between this and the FCC thing (what, millions of fake comments against net neutrality, many from Russia? While the Repub FCC chair pushes his corrupt telecom agenda), I swear to god we are a third world country.  I'm not exaggerating, this place has reached new levels of corruption, there is no accountability for the govt whatsoever anymore.

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2510 on: December 13, 2017, 10:14:25 AM »
So the Democrats spent a billion pretty much on 5 consultants with no oversight while candidates were left to self fundraise while fighting an election.
Losing to Trump shocked the world perhaps it shouldn't have done. Asleep at the wheel is the phrase that comes to mind.

Offline Bradley Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2511 on: December 13, 2017, 10:57:18 AM »
So the Democrats spent a billion pretty much on 5 consultants with no oversight while candidates were left to self fundraise while fighting an election.
Losing to Trump shocked the world perhaps it shouldn't have done. Asleep at the wheel is the phrase that comes to mind.

Asleep at the wheel is too kind.  More interested in skimming money than winning is more accurate.  Dem politicians-- (with the notable exception of Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren) are generally not committed to so a social justice agenda so much as they really want to be as corrupt as the repubs but they know the can't get re-elected b/c dem voters aren't as uniformed as repub voters so they find other ways to be corrupt while strategically half-assing their day job.  Obama had a Dem congress for 2 years.  He did nothing.  Trump did more in 3 days than Obama did in the first half of his term.  As soon as the Congress goes Red, he starts trying to do stuff but "oops congress wont let me, I guess we can't do all that stuff I promised after all..."  Basically the story of nearly every dem politician-- go out of your way to avoid addressing inequality and human rights while pretending to be committed to it.

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2512 on: December 13, 2017, 03:01:49 PM »
Doug Jones WON!
Thank God! I shouted for joy when I heard this last night.

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2513 on: December 13, 2017, 04:53:07 PM »
Quote
Thank God! I shouted for joy when I heard this last night.

I am very happy you are not a party first, regardless guy.

Offline Skip

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2514 on: December 13, 2017, 09:27:11 PM »
I'm happy Doug Jones won; or, more accurately, I'm happy Roy Moore lost. As others have said, therein lies the real problem. The Dems continue to fail to offer anything to inspire me or even to attract my attention. They continue to pin their hopes not on leadership but on revulsion toward the other guy. That is just possibly a way to win, but it's no way to lead.

I also think it's a mistake to cast all the Roy Moore votes as coming from people who know he's a sexual predator (or at least was), but voted for him anyway. I saw any number of interviews where the individual asserted forcefully that they believed the accusations were false. Now, if you believe the accusations are false, and you are ardently pro-life, anti-gun control, then Roy's your guy.

Beyond that, I heard Alabamians dismissed in arrogant, condescending terms by any number of people, from Big Media to casual comments. It's admittedly hard to hold one's tongue or one's derision. But consider: if you're the target of this rhetoric, it's easy to feel one's self under assault by outsiders. It's easy to call up the whole tradition of the South standing against the arrogant Yankees who want to tear down one's way of life. If Roy Moore becomes the symbol of that, then you get people voting for him regardless of what he's done, because to do otherwise is to yield to those who look down on you, on your state, and on the South (which still has a strong sense of identity despite long-term demographic change).

These are just a couple of other ways of viewing the results. If the Dems continue to write off that 49% as just a bunch of bigoted crackers, they are not going to win in 2018 or later. These folks are part of America, too, no matter how appalled some people (myself included) are by them. Problems generally don't get solved by laughing at them.

Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2515 on: December 14, 2017, 12:47:38 AM »
There will be a variety of breakdowns for the Alabama votes, but to me this is by far the most telling and a true indication of who made the real difference.



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Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2516 on: December 14, 2017, 10:03:10 PM »
These are just a couple of other ways of viewing the results. If the Dems continue to write off that 49% as just a bunch of bigoted crackers, they are not going to win in 2018 or later. These folks are part of America, too, no matter how appalled some people (myself included) are by them. Problems generally don't get solved by laughing at them.

I'm sad to say, I actually disagree with this, and I think recent elections (dem successes) have proven it out. There are a certain group of diehard Trump supporters who are, in my opinion, unreachable. They simply will not accept anything but their own (Fox News/Breitbart) reinforced reality. Nothing we do can reach them.

Suggest the look into the accusations of sexual harassment by Trump? FAKE NEWS. Suggest they look into what he's doing to our reputation abroad? FAKE NEWS. Suggest he's destablized the middle east by moving our embassy to Jerusalem? JESUS IS GUIDING TRUMP (some of his die-hard supporters actually believe that, and say it prominently whenever they can).

In my opinion, these people are unreachable. That's not to say we abandon them in terms of protections - the financial and environmental protections progressives want to keep (as well as ensuring Trump supporters continue to have access to affordable healthcare, despite their struggles to destroy it for themselves) still benefit them. But as far as getting these people to abandon Trump (and to a lesser extent, Republicans) and actually vote progressive? Not gonna happen. You cannot have a conversation when the other side will not acknowledge FACTS, and insists on living in their own made up world.

In my opinion, progressives need to focus on reaching two groups of people - their Democratic base (in particular black voters, who were INSTRUMENTAL in the Alabama win) and people who *did not vote*. Remember, in the 2016 election, over 50% of Americans did not vote at all. These people, for whatever reasons, did not feel motivated to vote for a progressive agenda.

So, Democrats need to pivot hard to their base. They need to fight for universal healthcare, fight for a new Voting Rights Act to deal with rampant voter suppression of minority votes, and fight for tax cuts for the poor and middle class while fairly taxing the rich and corporations. They need to energize the base and pick up new voters from those who do not like Trump and actually accept facts, but did not vote.

Those who still support Trump given how much of a disaster he has proven to be for the past eleven months cannot be reached with reason, or facts, or even empathy. We can still help them, but we can't get their vote. I hope Democrats (who are the only viable progressive party at the moment, as flawed as they are) will learn from the on the ground efforts in Virginia and Alabama and stop drifting further and further to the right in a vain attempt to recapture Trump voters. It's not happening.

Offline Skip

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2517 on: December 15, 2017, 04:19:33 AM »
I hear you. I have had this conversation with friends and relatives. Here are two comments, for your consideration.

One, I have a hard time abandoning my fellow citizens. There will always be people who will never vote the way I do, but the lines of conversation should be kept open. Just because they've given up (and I believe they have), is not a reason for me to give up. Nor for a political party to give up on them. There are reasons for their behaviors and their beliefs.

Two, it bothers me that we liberals (I count myself among the more radical of that group) talk frequently of understanding all kinds of marginalized groups. Even groups that behave badly, such as terrorist groups. We argue, rightly, that the way to defuse them in the long run is neither through ignoring them nor through fighting them, but through understanding them. There are reasons for their behaviors and beliefs.

But when it comes to our own hate groups, when it comes to the worst aspects of Southern crackers, we become condescending, dismissive, and condemnatory. We can refuse to allow the behavior even as we try to understand the beliefs, and try to correct the causes and conditions that underlie both.

That's what I see as absent from the Dems, and absent from the American Left generally. "Those people" are about a third of our country. What are we going to do about it? So far, the answer from the Left has been silence and indifference.

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2518 on: December 15, 2017, 06:45:48 AM »
That's what I see as absent from the Dems, and absent from the American Left generally. "Those people" are about a third of our country. What are we going to do about it? So far, the answer from the Left has been silence and indifference.

I think that's an excellent point, and I don't disagree in principle, but I think it's a matter of priorities at the moment. As it stands now, the extreme right wing controls most of the levers of power - presidency, house, senate, and a majority of state governerships and state senates. The problem now is that progressives can't really push the things that are going to make lives better for people in the US ... even Trump voters.

So, I wouldn't say I'm convinced we should "give up on them". But I do think we're tackling things in the wrong order. We are not going to convince Trump's most ardent supporters to abandon him and the Republican party while Republicans are still in power. So, for the time being, I think those people are lost as voters.

If Democrats focus specifically on the base, and new voters, we could (conceivably, though it's not likely, nor will it be easy) take back the Senate, possibly the House (though that will be difficult without an overwhelming push, thanks to gerrymanding) and the presidency, but also the many local and state governments now run by the radical right wing. That has to happen first, and that, combined with repairing the damage even now being done, must take priority (and will take a long time, if it gets done at all).

So yes, progressives should reach out to Trump voters ... eventually. But now is not the time, because they cannot be swayed so long as right-wing propaganda has them in thrall. It almost sounds like sci-fi, honestly, but progressives will have to take power, remain in power, and improve the US for everyone before Trump voters will even listen.

Then, once we've stopped the destruction of the US (hate toward LGBT folks, Muslims, minorities, and the hundreds of other toxic right wing policies) and started actually doing visible good that former Trump voters can see helping them, then we can reach out ... and maybe sway them.

But trying to sway them now, when they are lost in the bubble of Fox News, is a bad strategy.

Progressives need to support our base and energize new voters to such an extent we overcome gerrymanding and voter suppression (as was done in Alabama) and remove the radicial right wingers from power. Then, and only then, do we reach out to Trump supporters and try to gently pull them out of their right wing bubble.

Of course, like I said, this might well all be science fiction. I don't think it'll happen, honestly. But I do think we have to eliminate the cause of the problem (Trump voters being lied to and refusing to leave the lie) before we can actually have any chance of convincing them to stop voting against everyone's best interest.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 06:47:25 AM by tebakutis »

Offline Nora

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2519 on: December 15, 2017, 10:15:15 AM »
Fuck. For all the joy of seeing Alabama go blue for a while, rather than having Moore, Net neutrality was repealed.
Am I unaware of a second turn of voting or something? A last chance? Judges able to fight that?
It's fucking crazy.
I grew up learning that the USA was this land of liberty and opportunity where free expression was prided over anything else... and now the French president offers US scientists special bursaries to cross the Atlantic, and you loose access to large swathes of the internet.... like fucking China but under the guise of money instead of authoritarianism.

@Bradley Darewood just come and Mary me if it goes too crazy. Get you a French/EU passport  ;)
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