October 21, 2017, 10:25:24 PM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 113234 times)

Online Bradley Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2310 on: September 17, 2017, 09:36:14 AM »
I'm not sure where to post it. Depression and struggles? Science for science fiction? Here? Decided for here since climate change is highly political.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html

I guess some of you already read it since it was debated a lot.
Some said this article is to alarmistic and that it doesn't help to scare people. I say if only 10% of this is true, then people need to be informed and yes, scared (hopefully into action).

Quote
In his recent book-length essay The Great Derangement, the Indian novelist Amitav Ghosh wonders why global warming and natural disaster haven’t become major subjects of contemporary fiction — why we don’t seem able to imagine climate catastrophe, and why we haven’t yet had a spate of novels in the genre he basically imagines into half-existence and names “the environmental uncanny.”

get to work everybody

Online ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2311 on: September 17, 2017, 09:55:22 AM »
Thanks xia. That *is* scary! :o
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Offline Nora

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2312 on: September 17, 2017, 01:30:22 PM »
Quote
In his recent book-length essay The Great Derangement, the Indian novelist Amitav Ghosh wonders why global warming and natural disaster haven’t become major subjects of contemporary fiction — why we don’t seem able to imagine climate catastrophe, and why we haven’t yet had a spate of novels in the genre he basically imagines into half-existence and names “the environmental uncanny.”

get to work everybody

Well, here's some reading for you : https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/33858905-the-end-we-start-from?ac=1&from_search=true

Quote
In the midst of a mysterious environmental crisis, as London is submerged below flood waters, a woman gives birth to her first child, Z. Days later, the family are forced to leave their home in search of safety. As they move from place to place, shelter to shelter, their journey traces both fear and wonder as Z's small fists grasp at the things he sees, as he grows and stretches, thriving and content against all the odds.

This is a story of new motherhood in a terrifying setting: a familiar world made dangerous and unstable, its people forced to become refugees. Startlingly beautiful, Megan Hunter's The End We Start From is a gripping novel that paints an imagined future as realistic as it is frightening. And yet, though the country is falling apart around them, this family’s world – of new life and new hope – sings with love.
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Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2313 on: September 17, 2017, 03:49:39 PM »
Vaguely interesting half-fantasy half-climate change fact - apparently the map of Westeros looks a *lot* like some of the projections of what the British Isles will look like with rising sea levels.

In any case... yeah, people need to wake up on this. Even if they're sceptical... I mean, even in a nice neighbourhood, you spring for good locks just in case. Well, spending a bit of cash just in case we're making the earth uninhabitable seems reasonable.

We seem to be living in an age where we respond to fear by looking for something to punch in the face though. Or by believing whoever tells them the opposite, how utterly incredible it may be. I saw an article recently in which the New Statesman was saying making people curious was the best way to get them to change their mind.

http://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2017/09/internet-s-bigotry-problem-how-google-searches-reveal-our-dark-side

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2314 on: September 17, 2017, 04:26:18 PM »
That actually makes sense. I know for me, I'm more likely to believe something if someone proposes a question that I need more information to answer. If I'm shouted at, I'm less likely to care.

Offline Nora

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2315 on: September 17, 2017, 10:15:44 PM »
Why though?! If I'm shouted at by various very worried scientists about bee population decline and it's catastrophic consequences, I'm way more likely to believe them and want to research that than if I'm asked to answer questions.
Why so much distrust or disdain for hard science or facts depending on the way they are delivered? If it sounds bothersome and likely serious, we should check it out for ourselves.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2316 on: September 18, 2017, 12:45:52 AM »
That's not my point. Being shouted at makes you curious. Not me. Reading articles doesn't make me curious. Hearing people talk can make me curious, but there's still a good chance it won't. Bring it up in a discussion format though... That's when I'll start listening to what people say and digging things up. That's what makes me curious.

I also think it's an age thing. If people shout at me to do something, I'm still fighting the instinct to ignore them out of spite. Granted, I'm way better at resisting it nowadays, but I'm still at a point in my life where I don't like being told what to do.

Online ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2317 on: September 18, 2017, 09:26:24 AM »
It's interesting how the preferred styles of learning that we get in school continue throughout our lives, some getting spurred on by questions, others by reading, others yet by visuals.

I think people and organisations that are trying to pass on important messages should be aware of this, and do it through a variety of methods.
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Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2318 on: September 18, 2017, 10:01:43 AM »
If people believe strongly in some cause, whatever it may be, they will try very hard to get others to join them to support it. Some will oppose, some will promote. Sometimes people will appear to shout and keep on and on, which can be annoying. It may not necessarily in any abusive or bullying way, but because of their strong belief that their cause is right and they want it to succeed.

The most important thing is to look past the people shouting, whichever their side, and to calmly and logically see where the facts fit in with your own personal moral values or considered research. Then make your own decision or be prepared to change your original opinion because of what you have learned.

This is very pertinent just now here, because something incredibly important is soon to be decided. Some people are saying "I won't vote A or B because I don't like the way the A or B side are commenting."

This is so sad, because the basic question is about a moral choice which will affect the lives of thousands of people, not about how the actual manner in which people on either side are expressing their opinions.
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Offline Lanko

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2319 on: September 18, 2017, 03:30:01 PM »
I don't like the "shouting" approach either, but I guess in the end it comes down to how the shouting is done.

If the speaker comes condescending, or shaming/fear inducing, or aggressively, stuff like "Oh, how can you not believe in X but believe in stuff like Y?", "How the f#@% can you not see X", "You are X, Y and Z if you think this", etc.

I feel like they either aren't being very honest and have something to hide or have no proper arguments but that's what they really believe, regardless if it's correct or wrong, and don't care.

Doesn't matter if it's a random Joe, a Nobel winner or the Pope. Their renown means nothing to me. In fact, the more someone is renowned and do this, the more they just sound arrogant and perhaps even dishonest.
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Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2320 on: September 18, 2017, 08:49:52 PM »
Recent studies indicate that what we've always believed is true for neurological reasons - convincing requires the convincer to work from a point of common ground. Otherwise, the one to be convinced will literally remain impassive to any and all arguments - not solely from stubbornness, but because they literally will not perceive the merits of the argument, evidence, etc. Convincing requires time and thought, trust, and respect. So the idea of transmitting a message in a simple A to B way and changing minds is flawed. And while we can judge person X for not seeing Y, the principles apply to us all. Our own blind spots, biases, and prejudices remain just as entrenched, and just as embarrassing, even though we do not see them.
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Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2321 on: September 19, 2017, 04:11:57 AM »
Regardless of anyone's views on climate change it is pretty dire that this had to happen to preserve scientific data.
At least those involved had the foresight to recognise the need.

https://qz.com/891201/hackers-were-downloading-government-climate-data-and-storing-it-on-european-servers-as-trump-was-being-inaugurated/
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Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2322 on: September 26, 2017, 08:50:54 PM »

The most important thing is to look past the people shouting, whichever their side, and to calmly and logically see where the facts fit in with your own personal moral values or considered research. Then make your own decision or be prepared to change your original opinion because of what you have learned.

This is very pertinent just now here, because something incredibly important is soon to be decided. Some people are saying "I won't vote A or B because I don't like the way the A or B side are commenting."

Was this pertaining to the recent debate on gay marriage in Australia? Something highlighted by facebook exchanges that resulted in mother being summoned to inform someone that they were a C U Next Tuesday?

The thing is, yeah, you're right that's how it should work with being calm and logical but it doesn't work like that. I'd like to think I'm very placid and logical minded but it doesn't work for me like that, not all the time. And there's so many examples of people who don't do it at all (like the one I mentioned above). Which means political victory goes to the people who can work with the wonderfully irrational people we are. Sometimes short term you can win through shouting and panic, but long term, I think long term you need to make friends with them.

Long process though. News over here is full of the fact the BBC had to give its political editor to go to the Labour party conference. Pretty depressing. Female politicians asking how comes its female journalists having the worse problems, male politicians mumbling about other things. Very depressing. But gotta keep going.
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Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2323 on: September 27, 2017, 02:03:56 AM »
Yes @Peat that was in my mind, but can apply to any debate about moral choices. I am very sorry your mother was abused, this has become commonplace and some of the insults on both sides are very cruel, but really don't want to discuss this subject here.  It is distressing and the decision has been aggravated by along complicated process.


The thing is, yeah, you're right that's how it should work with being calm and logical but it doesn't work like that. I'd like to think I'm very placid and logical minded but it doesn't work for me like that, not all the time. And there's so many examples of people who don't do it at all (like the one I mentioned above). Which means political victory goes to the people who can work with the wonderfully irrational people we are. Sometimes short term you can win through shouting and panic, but long term, I think long term you need to make friends with them.
I agree absolutely, I am far from passive and very passionate about certain causes, so have to tread carefully among my friends and family.  As you said humans are irrational and it is good to convince by winning over, and I mentally play Devil's Advocate on many things, but discussion is often frustrating with someone who has a closed mind and refuses to be fully informed, whatever the subject.

For example, we have a Republic or Not debate looming in the future, that too has been going on for years, and it floors me that so many focus on "I'll vote Yes/No for an Aus Republic because I hate/love the Royal Family"  instead of  "OK let's look at the advantages and disadvantages for Australia." 

Once this is decided and if it is Yes, it will take at least another decade of argument on how are we going to make it happen practically and to ensure we elect a fairly sane and intelligent President.  :P  ;D
 
But the reason for my comment  above was that voting or writing off a particular cause just because you didn't like the way they made comment, whether too persistent, too shouty or too offensive, should not influence you either way when making a personal decision on the basic facts of the case.

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Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2324 on: September 27, 2017, 06:46:06 AM »
You misunderstood the mother comment; I was referring to the screenshot of a Facebook conversation that made its way round Twitter re said debate. I'm guessing you saw it - if you're still in the dark send me a PM.

And I thought about the only relevance the Royal Family still had for Australia was whether you like them or not!