August 21, 2017, 05:24:09 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 106164 times)

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2220 on: August 12, 2017, 06:25:15 PM »
:O

Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2221 on: August 12, 2017, 06:36:07 PM »
I have to admit, on the whole, I kind of feel bad about teasing the American exchange students about Trump in the days before the election.

I never thought he'd actually win.
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Offline Bradley Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2222 on: August 13, 2017, 08:49:45 AM »
Yeah Chuck Tingle makes a killing spending half day writing 15-page stories about unicorn football teams gangbanging an astronaut it's ridiculous.  Not surprised he went for Trump.

I've been feeling very nonpartisan lately (nooooo, not into the KKK hate rally in the Carolinas or the dipshits at Fox News)... but, while I find hardliners on international policy deplorable in every way, there's one point where I agree: The Iran deal was a bad idea, and N. Korea needs to not have nukes. Like for reals we need to stop it.  Nukes need to be gone, the left shouldn't be like "oh we're just being selfish everyone should have nukes!" nooooo nukes need to go the f** away, like ASAP.  Granted I think today's Repubs are completely insincere and just say the opposite of dems on like everything-- I mean they *did* sell weapons illegally to Iran to finance an illegal war in Nicaragua while campaigning on being hard on Iran during the hostage situation, they sold chemical weapons Iraq before drumming up a war with them... so yeah the words are just words, but Bush Sr. (SENIOR, not his trainwreck crackbaby of a son), *did* do some amazing things for arms reduction, and I have mad respect for that man for accomplishing that, an there's a couple, like McCain that at least have a concept of the horrors of war, so there's hope in the mix somewhere.

I'm also pretty nonpartisan on healthcare.  Single payer, individual mandate, I think it's awful.

Finally drugs. I've never met anyone who's life has been destroyed by LSD, ecstasy, Mushrooms, peyote, marijuana.. all of which carry terrible sentences. But I've had family members die of oxy--  and those that didn't die had their lives completely destroyed.  Dr.s that are like "pain pills blah blah blah" can seriously fuck off.  That shit needs to be against the law.  It needs to not be manufactured.  It needs to be shut down. (I will note that coke and amphetamines have destroyed plenty of lives and are still illegal... but still oxy is wayyyy to readily available... also side note alcohol has done a serious number on people too... but enough about drugs)

So I guess this is my olive branch to my republican friends.  Sure your base is Nazi psychos that confuse grotesque spin and fear mongering a third grader should be able to see through for news, and your leaders are unabashed liars that manipulate the public like a hand puppet... but if we were to look at the issues as issues, there are places where we may have far more in common than one might think.  So here's a virtual hug to all you repubs out there.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 08:51:28 AM by Bradley Darewood »

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2223 on: August 13, 2017, 05:10:05 PM »
I think being nonpartisan is the best position you can be in. I really don't like what either party is doing right now. No one wants to work together and it's tearing this country apart. In this next election I'm going to do a lot of research on who in my voting district has made efforts to work with both sides and who seems reliable enough that they will do so in the future. Maybe it will start to make a difference if people focus on these things as a priority.

Me and my Mom were talking about this yesterday. Federalized health care would be a great thing if done right, but we still don't understand why they won't issue a law demolishing state lines for health insurance plans. It would make them a lot cheaper, and benefit everyone on the market. Poor people like me who can't afford health insurance right now might be able to find something if companies were forced to lower their rates through competition. And from talking to people on both sides, I have yet to meet anyone against it. There must be a group of lobbyists from all the insurance companies at work.

the Iran deal is a mess and I don't know why anyone wanted it. Or didn't think to make it more sensible. Like surprise inspections. I still don't understand why we are supposed to give them so much warning before we go look at what they're doing. I think disarming nukes is a great idea in theory, but everyone will hide one. And someone might be good enough at hiding them that we don't know until it's too late. They definitely should put a limit right now. Apparently Russia and the United States have 1800 nuclear warheads ready to be launched, which seems insane.

Please don't shoot me for what I'm about to say. I'm sad to see the Robert E. Lee statue and park turn into a KKK riot. I didn't agree with them renaming the park and removing the statue. It's an unpleasant part of our history. That doesn't mean we should remove all traces of it. It's like any Civil War symbol has to symbolize slavery, even though that's only a fraction of what the war was about. The conflict had been building ever since the beginning of the century. I was hoping the protests would be more historically based, not KKK rallies. Now that they are, there's probably no going back. They have to stick with their decision because it has become a symbol of white supremacy. Which sucks.

I'm not saying that a guy with the confederate flag on the back of his Pick-up truck isn't most likely racist. but not everyone with one hanging in their yards is. Some have had stories passed down of relatives who fought in the war. Maybe there was a remembered incident right in front of their home. It's a way of remembering. I think it's extremely judgmental to assume everyone with one is a racist.

Offline Doctor_Chill

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2224 on: August 14, 2017, 12:46:38 AM »
Bradley, have you ever considered the Libertarian Party? Denuclearization, health care outside the realm of the federal government, decriminalization of nonviolent drugs (though I'll argue with you about LSD and ecstasy, having seen what it does to people), along with a probably liberal slant toward most social issues?

I'm still unsure about the health care bit myself, thinking that if it could be implemented on statewide levels instead of at a national level, it may do better. Though, the part about state line insurance plans and employment mandated health insurance might make that more complicated and moot. It's a bigger issue here than merely implementing single payer across the board or removing *some* regulations.

Europeans have a hard time fathoming that Texas or the East Coast is nearly as big as their entire continent, and countries like Liechenstein are as big (population and land wise) as the small town I'm in currently. Single payer health care, along with a few other policy ideas, works in homogeneous, high density populations that average around 40 to 60 million. USA has 320+ million last I checked. There's less land to regulate, as well. It's why I'll always argue states rights for anything that revolves around the economy.

Exactly why I try not to discuss the matter.

But yeah, look into them. My biggest love for them is their lack of warmongering and overall focus on nonviolent approaches for foreign policy and civil rights/liberties. That's one reason I've detested the past few presidents and nominees. They want to send people like me off to get killed over insults and threats and oil that could be solved in this day and age by drones or better economic policies. Or they want me to continue paying for a statistically failing War on Drugs, Poverty, Opioid Crisis, etc.
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Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2225 on: August 14, 2017, 01:37:46 AM »
I think it's extremely judgmental to assume everyone with one is a racist.
Symbols carry weight, and while it is a nice notion to believe that a person can carry a symbol for whatever reason they like, the people around them will interpret the symbol based on a broader view. I live in Georgia, where the Con. Flag is not at all uncommon. And yes, even last week before Charlottesville, every time I saw it, I thought two things: "Redneck" and "Trump Supporter", both of which have a racist tinge that is deepening as we go. It was "neutral-to-mildly-anti-minority"; it's now "Anti-minority".

Expecting the general population to give the benefit of the doubt is unrealistic and unreasonable. If I wear a stormtrooper outfit, people think "Star Wars fan". If I wear a Nazi Stormtrooper outfit, people think "Neo-Nazi" - and rightly so. That's what neo-Nazi's do. And while I suppose it is sad that a German cannot celebrate his history without being associated with Nazism, it's unavoidable. The symbols have to be left behind because they're indelibly tainted.

After this weekend, the Confederate Flag's association with racism is stronger than it was before, and it wasn't weak in the racism area. Displaying it is essentially communicating things that are fresher and stronger than just a few days ago - and it's time for people to start deciding what kind of country they want to live in - a nation where all men are created equal, or a nation where some are trying to ensure that not all of us are. I don't like this, but I think it's the truth.
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Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2226 on: August 14, 2017, 04:51:22 AM »
I understand why the confederate flag is scene as a racist symbol. I just think there are situations where it is acceptable to display. Outside your home where a historic battle occurred for example, or a historic area where Confederate soldiers did something noteworthy. Someone's T-Shirt or pick-up truck wouldn't qualify.

But renaming a park and removing a statue... It feels too much like sensory.

Offline Magnus Hedén

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2227 on: August 14, 2017, 02:57:02 PM »
The Confederate flag represents a nation that fought a war to defend the right to enslave people by law, specifically 'Africans' (as was written into their constitution).

The flag should not be erased from history, but if someone waves one in the streets or hangs one in their yard, they are inevitably eluding to the values and laws of the Confederate States of America, whether they wish it or not.

Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2228 on: August 14, 2017, 03:58:59 PM »
If my grandfather had fought for the SS I would not be displaying THAT flag on my car.
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Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2229 on: August 14, 2017, 04:25:41 PM »
I have strong feelings about "heritage not hate". I don't think I'll get into them on here, as anything I said would just be me screaming angrily at those who mostly agree with me. Instead I'll just say "fuck Nazis".

It physically hurts me to know a Nazi terrorist killed a woman for protesting fascism. I know Heather Heyer (the victim) was 32, but I doubt that leaves her parents hurting any less. Since I've had my own child, I know all too well the agony any parent would feel upon losing their child. Tragedies like this hit me harder than they used to.
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Offline Bradley Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2230 on: August 14, 2017, 10:51:15 PM »
Tragedies like this hit me harder than they used to.

This is f*ng ridiculous



What boggles my mind is that these alt-right guys are in their 20s... they're children... how did their minds get so twisted that it would be okay to run some people over, then protest the murder charge outside the courthouse?

I have strong feelings about "heritage not hate".

Here's where I think we've run into a big problem that liberals don't understand.  It's heritage AND hate.  The South had a certain social order-- things like slavery and sexism (which the North has as well, they just hide it instead of celebrate it) are a part of the southern heritage.  But it's a PART, not all of it.  People who were into the confed flag were indexing a southern rebelliousness to authority, a cultural configuration, like a Dukes of Hazard episode, that's more than slavery, but definitely includes it. 

Is that flag a trauma trigger for people of color? Of course it is.  I feel profoundly uncomfortable any time I'm around it.  But if I were approaching the debate on the flag like a general trying to win a war, I'd say liberals are making a big mistake by focusing on the flag.  There are so many important things to focus on: rights, accountability, structural inequality-- the flag is a cultural symbol, and in making it all about hate in our minds, we empower it as an instrument of hate.  Attacking cultural symbols like the confed flag is the sort of thing that makes the people who came out in droves in the last election feel like their way of life is being threatened. It's like when the US went in and outlawed the entire Ba'ath party in Iraq (which the whole military belonged to) and then were surprised they had an armed rebellion on their hands. Subverting the image, shifting it's meaning would be a far more effective strategy, or just picking something else to focus on would be much wiser. As a strategist I would say back off the cultural symbols and pick a fight that's rooted in substantial rights, accountability, or material inquality, b/c the product of this flag debate is a more consolidated and active right. 

Offline Magnus Hedén

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2231 on: August 15, 2017, 08:11:16 AM »
I agree, Bradley. It's easy to pour our feelings (hate?) into the symbols, rather than looking at the reasons why people end up waving them in the street in the 21st century.

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2232 on: August 15, 2017, 02:38:17 PM »
I think the choice to wear or display a confederate flag is a poor one as it flies in the face of reality. Not accepting something that happened strikes me as foolish in the extreme. For those unaware the American Civil War was fought for nearly three years before the issue of slave owning was brought up and the union thoughts on this were far from united. Anything else is revisionist history looking to give you clear and simple good and bad guys.
A clash between an industrial and agrarian ideology would be a better cause for the war and a determining of who held the real power.

When it comes to removing monuments there often comes a time when they become inappropriate and should not be left in situ.

Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2233 on: August 15, 2017, 05:04:11 PM »
I completely agree with Bradley about going after cultural symbols being a risky move in terms of winning the argument.


It's odd though. In terms of British politics, I find myself uneasily sat in the middle and wishing for a truly centrist party*. Then I look at American politics, and I see people sat in the middle, and my mind boggles because to me its one of the most straight-forward easy choices I've ever seen.


*I read a good article the other day making the point that really, centrism is small c-conservatism, which obviously can't be called out in the UK what with the actually quite radical Conservative party that a lot of small-c conservatives don't actually want to be associated with.
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Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2234 on: August 15, 2017, 05:11:36 PM »
Of course it seems like an easy choice for someone in Europe. You don't live here.

Not trying to insult you. it's just that most of Europe has more socialism. So you grew up with more socialism than us in America did. So for you, what we're doing seems ridiculous because it's completely outside of what you grew up with. It's also easy for Europeans to forget the size of America, both land and population. There's a lot more to consider.

but I feel like it's a losing battle. It's like trying to explain our right to bare arms, gun control issues not included. You didn't grow up with it, so it's a lot harder to understand where we're coming from. Which is why everyone chalks it up to "crazy Americans." and who knows? Maybe we are crazy. But it's easier to throw that word around rather than understand what's happening.