December 11, 2017, 07:30:57 AM

Author Topic: Ask a Brit/American what this means  (Read 41944 times)

Offline Yora

Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #555 on: September 28, 2017, 06:11:10 AM »
"Have had" also exist in German as "gehabt haben". It's not quite the same as "hatten". Not sure if old style guides permit it, but it's definitly something that shows up in German, and not extremely rare, I believe.

A typical sentence in German would be "Back when we've had horses, ..." But alternatively "Back when we still had horses, ..." The version "Back when we had horses, ...." would probably fly, but I think it sounds clunky.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 06:15:26 AM by Yora »
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Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #556 on: September 28, 2017, 08:10:37 AM »


So so so sorry @Lanko. These English verbs are bastards, remember the dreaded has hads etc now  have had appears. ::) I'll try to help -

Quote
There is something guarded in his expression that was not there before, you notice distantly, through horror and wonder. Later, when you've had time to get past this, you and he will have to talk. Now there are more important considerations.

The have had is referring to all of time to get past this and it all becomes an action which still has to happen BUT will be in the past by the time "you and he will talk".

Not knowing context but assuming - some urgent practical action (such as escape or destroy something) you and he must carry out, before you have a heart to heart to help him get over his reaction to whatever has just caused his present horror and wonder.

Compare it with this same but more simple structure

When you have had the operation to remove your appendix, you and the surgeon will have to talk.

Quote
Also, would it be wrong if it was something like:

"Later, when you'll have time, you and he will have to talk"  or "Later, after getting through this, you and he will have to talk" or simply "Later you and he will have to talk"

Not wrong, all perfectly fine, because first sentence makes it clear that something pretty huge is happening. But "the time to get past it" does help stress there is an action of urgency or importance to be done first before the talk.

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Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #557 on: September 28, 2017, 08:10:50 AM »
Also, would it be wrong if it was something like: "Later, when you'll have time, you and he will have to talk" or "Later, after getting through this, you and he will have to talk" or simply "Later you and he will have to talk"?
I can't help with the technical aspects, it's been too long since I learnt and now it just comes automatically, but in this specific case your suggestion doesn't work because the narrator (not sure at what point you are and I don't want to give out a spoiler) is telling the story in the future.
So the situation is that "you've had time" means he knows what will happen, and it requires her to have time (despite what she thinks at that specific moment), with "will have to talk" simply meaning that the talk will happen sometime after the current situation.
The narrator is giving her time to consider.

Not wrong, all perfectly fine, because first sentence makes it clear that something pretty huge is happening. But "the time to get past it" does help stress there is an action of urgency or importance to be done first before the talk.
And this is also what I was trying to say ::) thanks, Lady Ty!
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Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #558 on: September 28, 2017, 08:15:40 AM »
Thanks ScarletBea, I don't know the context of that story so had to try and explain in the dark.  Hope it all helps Lanko sort it out . ;D

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Offline Jmack

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Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #559 on: September 28, 2017, 11:32:54 AM »
Hmm. My only comment on Bz's reading is that the narrator is describing the character's thoughts in the present of the narration, not (in this instance) a reflection based on future events. Yes, the narrator stands in the future, but describing the then present.

'Later, when you've had time to get over this, you'll have to talk."
The character, not the narrator, is thinking: "I have to get over this. And when I do, we're going to have to talk." But because the narrator is essentially telling the story to the POV character, the grammar changes. In the style of the book, the narrator never does "thought tags" (I.e. Thought bubble version of dialogue tags). The narrator doesn't say: "You're thinking, 'I need time to get over this, and after I do, we're going to need to talk.'" So without that structure, and with the fundamental structure as second person present, you get:

"Later (after the present moment), when you have had time (moving us to that future time and looking backward) to get over this, you will (in that future time) have to talk."

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Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #560 on: September 28, 2017, 01:00:25 PM »
Thanks Jmack, that might describe it better.

This discussion is actually another of the reasons why I love Jemisin's books: the language is precise, and used in ways that we don't see regularly.
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Offline Lanko

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Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #561 on: September 28, 2017, 08:39:24 PM »
Thanks everyone that helped!
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Offline RobertS

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Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #562 on: October 04, 2017, 08:12:34 PM »
Quote
There is something guarded in his expression that was not there before, you notice distantly, through horror and wonder. Later, when you've had time to get past this, you and he will have to talk. Now there are more important considerations.

This has been said, but here is another flavor of explanation.

This expression indicates that the emotions and understanding of the event are too much to face at the moment. Often this expression or one like it is used by an adult to a child to indicate that it will never, ever be discussed again. It is also used when someone wants to say, "Let's talk, but not in front of these people," in a way that does not directly say to the people around that you don't want to include them in the conversation.
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Online Eli_Freysson

Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #563 on: December 03, 2017, 11:29:56 AM »
"Behold my powers of necromancy, brought on by needing a particular word!"

Anyway, I'm writing a space battle scene, and boy is writing three-dimensional fighting tricky. A big ship is being attacked by multiple smaller ones. It mostly keeps stationary and merely spins to protect the aft thrusters. Then when the bad guys do get into position to target them, the big ship quickly moves in place so the underside (and all its guns) are facing the smaller ships.

What is the proper word to use for the move? Upend? Pitching forward? Let's keep in mind that there is no up or down in space.
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Offline Jmack

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Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #564 on: December 03, 2017, 12:16:57 PM »
Read the first few Honor Harrington books by David Weber. Great fun, and great 3D space battles.

The ships in HH universe have a gravitational “wedge” as part of their propulsion and it is impenetrable in battle. So if a ship rolls to present its wedge then you can’t fire or you have to maneuver around it. Similarly, if you’re the ship the ship that has rolled its wedge, you can roll again to present your weapons to fire. Much strategy is when to do which, etc.
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Offline Ray McCarthy

Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #565 on: December 03, 2017, 12:29:03 PM »
Anyway, I'm writing a space battle scene, and boy is writing three-dimensional fighting tricky. A big ship is being attacked by multiple smaller ones. It mostly keeps stationary and merely spins to protect the aft thrusters. Then when the bad guys do get into position to target them, the big ship quickly moves in place so the underside (and all its guns) are facing the smaller ships.

What is the proper word to use for the move? Upend? Pitching forward? Let's keep in mind that there is no up or down in space.
Star Trek seemed to treat everything less 3D than Naval warfare, which has submarines and torpedoes since 19th C and aircraft since early 20th.

You can have "up and down" in a spiral galaxy, like our Milky way. Though which is up might be arbitrary, you could pick "top/up" based on spin of a galaxy, say regarding ALL as spinning "clockwise" and thus top is defined even for most globular galaxies. Then co-ordinates are confirmed by pulsars and would have an arbitrary zero degrees on disc, a +/- up down and a + out from centre. A ship would have degrees rotation on main axis and degree angle to plane of the galaxy or local star system if within say 25 light days of a star.
Each civilisation in a Galaxy might have zero go through own homeworld and a different decision on which is up. If you know that, their number of subdivisions of a circle and unit of interstellar distance, you can convert. How do you know? When you spy/steal a copy of a navigation database it will have the same pulsars.
One thing for sure, if there are ANY civilisations in any galaxy, they will use Pulsars as navigation beacons. The "gps" of the known universe. Already being used by us on internal Solar System navigation!
 

Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #566 on: December 04, 2017, 03:58:59 AM »
"Behold my powers of necromancy, brought on by needing a particular word!"

Anyway, I'm writing a space battle scene, and boy is writing three-dimensional fighting tricky. A big ship is being attacked by multiple smaller ones. It mostly keeps stationary and merely spins to protect the aft thrusters. Then when the bad guys do get into position to target them, the big ship quickly moves in place so the underside (and all its guns) are facing the smaller ships.

What is the proper word to use for the move? Upend? Pitching forward? Let's keep in mind that there is no up or down in space.

The short answer to your question: unlike 'turn', the verbs pivot, rotate, and spin connote turning in place without changing position. For example, in the new Battlestar Galactica series, the fighters would fly in one direction, pivot to bring their weapons to bear on their target, and strafe sideways.

Small suggestion: pick words for specific purposes and stick with them. Technical people, like pilots and ship captains, use specific terms to ensure their communications are clear. Hence starboard and port on ships; aft and forward; pitch, yaw, and roll in flight. Whatever you pick, be consistent.

When a ship pivots along its centerline, always facing the same way, that's rolling, but this is so often depicted while moving that it might be confusing. If it pivots horizontally, that's yaw, but that word is rarely used outside of aerospace. Pitch is changing your attitude by raising/lowering the nose.
So I advise these combinations:
- rolling clockwise while holding position
- rotating yawing, spinning, pivoting, or facing left or right
- pitching up/down

A bigger suggestion: devise a framework for describing such things and establish it with the reader BEFORE you get into the space battle, perhaps during a routine shuttle-docking sequence.

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Offline Ray McCarthy

Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #567 on: December 04, 2017, 11:45:23 AM »
… unlike 'turn', the verbs pivot, rotate, and spin connote turning in place without changing position. For example, in the new Battlestar Galactica series, the fighters would fly in one direction, pivot to bring their weapons to bear on their target, and strafe sideways.

… Hence starboard and port on ships; aft and forward; pitch, yaw, and roll in flight. Whatever you pick, be consistent.

When a ship pivots along its centerline, always facing the same way, that's rolling, but this is so often depicted while moving that it might be confusing. If it pivots horizontally, that's yaw, but that word is rarely used outside of aerospace. Pitch is changing your attitude by raising/lowering the nose.
So I advise these combinations:
- rolling clockwise while holding position
- rotating yawing, spinning, pivoting, or facing left or right
- pitching up/down

… devise a framework for describing such things and establish it with the reader BEFORE you get into the space battle, perhaps during a routine shuttle-docking sequence.
Also in space there is no friction and no ability to use surfaces. If you turn the original vector is unaffected and summed to new thrust. Every existing vector has to be cancelled by a sufficient duration thrust. Compared to hovercraft (bad) or missile (very bad), changing direction is complex and needs reverse thrust. A ship thus will continue in almost exactly the same direction no matter which of X Y Z axis you roll/rotate on.

Good advice from "The Gem Cutter", especially consistency and casual introduction of terms without info dump. Docking between two ships, or ship and station on different vectors, or different initial orbits are complex. Computer / autopilot with ability to manually abort would be normal for docking, at least to match vectors closely, including any axial rotation or tumbling of either object.

Offline Bradley Darewood

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Re: Ask a Brit/American what this means
« Reply #568 on: December 05, 2017, 12:27:01 PM »

So off the topic of spaceships...

Apparently Americans speak more like 17th century Englishmen than... Englishmen do.

http://the-toast.net/2014/03/19/a-linguist-explains-british-accents-of-yore/

also this video is referenced in the article and it's hillarious
https://youtu.be/WxB1gB6K-2A