November 18, 2017, 08:23:04 AM

Author Topic: Naming a country conundrum  (Read 300 times)

Offline Bradley Darewood

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Naming a country conundrum
« on: November 15, 2017, 03:43:05 AM »

So originally my WIP took place in Ara Valon b/c I wanted it to be a riff off of Avalon, but in retrospect Ara Valon is too much like Tar Valon so I think i'm going to change it.  I like that people from there are called "Valonians" tho, so I figured if I changed it to something-Vale or Vael, I could still keep the Valonian adjective.

GRRM already has a place that's just "The Vale", Terry Brooks has "Shady Vale".... but there's room here. The place is full of temperate forests and greeness and castles and whatnot, so I want to possibly consider that. The problem here is that Something's Vale can sound too folksy and not like a whole country's name.

Option one: adjectives
The Golden Vale (the Golden Vael?)
The Emerald Vale
The... Royal?... Vale..
The IDK Vale

Option two: proper names
Aran's Vale
King's Vale
Olbion's Vale

Option three... ????

any ideas?

Offline CameronJohnston

Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2017, 07:41:56 PM »
I think a proper name sounds better than using adjectives.
I'm thinking Vale of X:
Vale of Aran
Vale of Olbion
etc

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Offline xiagan

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Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2017, 08:42:48 PM »
I think a proper name sounds better than using adjectives.
I'm thinking Vale of X:
Vale of Aran
Vale of Olbion
etc
Seconded. Listen to this man, Bradley Valewood.
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Offline cupiscent

Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2017, 08:48:24 PM »
Depending on how long the place has been called that, consider conflated names. I mean, people are lazy, and long multi-word placenames get smooshed.

Vale of Aran > Valovaran > Valvaran > Varan
Or Aran's Vale > Aransvale
Whatever floats your goat.

Offline Peat

Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2017, 10:20:19 PM »
I think a proper name sounds better than using adjectives.
I'm thinking Vale of X:
Vale of Aran
Vale of Olbion
etc

But then they're Arans, or Olbini, or whatever.

Why not just Valon?
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Offline Dark Squiggle

Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2017, 10:37:32 PM »
Why not a take off on Avalon's furst name?
Toyota >>>> Oyota >>>Tyoa  :o ;)

Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2017, 01:41:37 AM »
One question - is this one of many vales of similar size & significance? Are not its inhabitants simple men of The Vale? Valemen?
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Offline Bradley Darewood

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Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2017, 02:33:32 AM »

So many good ideas!!! You guys are the best!!!

I think a proper name sounds better than using adjectives.
I'm thinking Vale of X:
Vale of Aran
Vale of Olbion
etc
Seconded. Listen to this man, Bradley Valewood.

@xiagan  I'll have you know my name is Barley Redwood, or haven't you read Lanko's story yet?

Offline Skip

Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2017, 04:38:57 AM »
I suppose it's too late to suggest Vicki Vale.  ::)

Offline Ray McCarthy

Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2017, 04:54:09 PM »

So originally my WIP took place in Ara Valon b/c I wanted it to be a riff off of Avalon, but in retrospect Ara Valon is too much like Tar Valon so I think i'm going to change it. 

Avalon is a late corruption of Ynys Afallach (Welsh) and Inis Abhlach (Old Irish) = Isle of Apples.

In Celtic Irish, the bh can be somewhere between an "f" and "v" in sound as mh is "v" to "w" (Samhain, Naimh etc)

No connection at all to Glastonbury, because it is Isle of Glass, a real place.
Ynys Afallach may or may not have been ruled by a Fay King and later Three,  four,  seven or nine Queens / Fay Princesses.  The Welsh "good neighbours"/"People of the Woods", French Le Fay, North of England/ScottishBorder  Elves, The Irish Fair Folk / Aes Side, Scottish Sith  are essentially the same and the people that managed Avalon.
In the earliest stories Morgan Le Fay is one of 3, 4, 7 or 9 "Ladies of the Lake", perilous fay folk that might do good or ill, not a relative of Arthur. Actually Arthur, then Lancelot, Gwain, Mordred, Morgeuse and the Grail only appear in later French stories not the early Welsh ones.
Guinevere means "White Elf". She's one of the Fay, not human in oldest stories.
Manannán's Welsh equivalent is Manawydan fab Llyr and is supposed to have been involved in creation of Avalon, which is a Celtic Otherworld, not a place you can get to without Magic.
Manannán' mac Lir =  Manawydan fab Llyr is ambiguous. Is he simply Fay, or a God, or a half Fay son of Ler (God of the sea, Lir is genative). Note the Lir in the Children of Lir is merely someone with the same name.

Read the oldest Welsh, Norse and Irish Celtic legend.
There are certain parallels between the them. Avalon / Ynys Afallach /  Inis Abhlach / Isle of Apples like Asgard is an "otherworldy" place. The Goddess Iðun has magic apples that keep the Aesir / Vanir in Asgard young and healthy. Ynys Afallach is a place of healing with magic apples (in one story dying Arthur is taken there by three Fay ladies of the lake, one of whom is Morgen le Fay (Morien).  Fay is masculine in French, hence le and not la.

Dead/dying Norse/Skandi are taken to Valhalla and also Freya's hall in Asgard, to be ready for fighting at Ragnarök.
Dying Arthur and others taken to Avalon to arise for some future threat to Wales or Celtic Britain. Note Welsh is Anglo Saxon for Foreigners and before Queen Elizabeth 1st after Normans, only the Welsh, Cornish (Great Britain) and Bretons (Little Britain = Brittany) were British.
Queen Elizabeth 1st insisted to French and Spanish that the English were British too, to cement claims in the New World, because a Welsh prince was alleged to have discovered it. Curiously Vikings really did, before Columbus. Obviously the people living there had a different view.
QE1 was in reality part Welsh anyway.
Much of Shakespeare's Fairy stuff is based on Celtic Welsh and scraps of Celtic myth surviving in England. There is a good free Victorian book about background to a Midsummer Nights Dream (Elves / Fairy / Puck/Robin Goodfellow) with sources in entirety on Gutenberg.org
There are different kinds of Irish Celtic fairy, one is the Púca. The irish Fair Folk, the shee (Aés Sidhe) (Tall, pale, live forever unless you kill them, magical) used the mounds as gateways to their otherworlds. Sometimes they are confused with the Tuath Dé, later erroneously called the Tuatha Dé Danaan.
Tolkien based his Dwarves on the Norse ones, but his elves are unmistakeably Celtic, see the oldest tales.
North of England "Elf" story like Welsh / Irish Fair folk (the people that ran Avalon) is 'Thomas the Rhymer"

I could write much more ....


« Last Edit: November 16, 2017, 04:57:12 PM by Ray McCarthy »

Offline Dark Squiggle

Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2017, 09:22:15 PM »

So originally my WIP took place in Ara Valon b/c I wanted it to be a riff off of Avalon, but in retrospect Ara Valon is too much like Tar Valon so I think i'm going to change it. 

Avalon is a late corruption of Ynys Afallach (Welsh) and Inis Abhlach (Old Irish) = Isle of Apples.

In Celtic Irish, the bh can be somewhere between an "f" and "v" in sound as mh is "v" to "w" (Samhain, Naimh etc)

No connection at all to Glastonbury, because it is Isle of Glass, a real place.
Ynys Afallach may or may not have been ruled by a Fay King and later Three,  four,  seven or nine Queens / Fay Princesses.  The Welsh "good neighbours"/"People of the Woods", French Le Fay, North of England/ScottishBorder  Elves, The Irish Fair Folk / Aes Side, Scottish Sith  are essentially the same and the people that managed Avalon.
In the earliest stories Morgan Le Fay is one of 3, 4, 7 or 9 "Ladies of the Lake", perilous fay folk that might do good or ill, not a relative of Arthur. Actually Arthur, then Lancelot, Gwain, Mordred, Morgeuse and the Grail only appear in later French stories not the early Welsh ones.
Guinevere means "White Elf". She's one of the Fay, not human in oldest stories.
Manannán's Welsh equivalent is Manawydan fab Llyr and is supposed to have been involved in creation of Avalon, which is a Celtic Otherworld, not a place you can get to without Magic.
Manannán' mac Lir =  Manawydan fab Llyr is ambiguous. Is he simply Fay, or a God, or a half Fay son of Ler (God of the sea, Lir is genative). Note the Lir in the Children of Lir is merely someone with the same name.

Read the oldest Welsh, Norse and Irish Celtic legend.
There are certain parallels between the them. Avalon / Ynys Afallach /  Inis Abhlach / Isle of Apples like Asgard is an "otherworldy" place. The Goddess Iðun has magic apples that keep the Aesir / Vanir in Asgard young and healthy. Ynys Afallach is a place of healing with magic apples (in one story dying Arthur is taken there by three Fay ladies of the lake, one of whom is Morgen le Fay (Morien).  Fay is masculine in French, hence le and not la.

Dead/dying Norse/Skandi are taken to Valhalla and also Freya's hall in Asgard, to be ready for fighting at Ragnarök.
Dying Arthur and others taken to Avalon to arise for some future threat to Wales or Celtic Britain. Note Welsh is Anglo Saxon for Foreigners and before Queen Elizabeth 1st after Normans, only the Welsh, Cornish (Great Britain) and Bretons (Little Britain = Brittany) were British.
Queen Elizabeth 1st insisted to French and Spanish that the English were British too, to cement claims in the New World, because a Welsh prince was alleged to have discovered it. Curiously Vikings really did, before Columbus. Obviously the people living there had a different view.
QE1 was in reality part Welsh anyway.
Much of Shakespeare's Fairy stuff is based on Celtic Welsh and scraps of Celtic myth surviving in England. There is a good free Victorian book about background to a Midsummer Nights Dream (Elves / Fairy / Puck/Robin Goodfellow) with sources in entirety on Gutenberg.org
There are different kinds of Irish Celtic fairy, one is the Púca. The irish Fair Folk, the shee (Aés Sidhe) (Tall, pale, live forever unless you kill them, magical) used the mounds as gateways to their otherworlds. Sometimes they are confused with the Tuath Dé, later erroneously called the Tuatha Dé Danaan.
Tolkien based his Dwarves on the Norse ones, but his elves are unmistakeably Celtic, see the oldest tales.
North of England "Elf" story like Welsh / Irish Fair folk (the people that ran Avalon) is 'Thomas the Rhymer"

I could write much more ....
Can you please post a link, or at least a title and an author's name for that book?

Offline Bradley Darewood

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Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2017, 10:06:10 PM »

So originally my WIP took place in Ara Valon b/c I wanted it to be a riff off of Avalon, but in retrospect Ara Valon is too much like Tar Valon so I think i'm going to change it. 

Avalon is a late corruption of Ynys Afallach (Welsh) and Inis Abhlach (Old Irish) = Isle of Apples.

In Celtic Irish, the bh can be somewhere between an "f" and "v" in sound as mh is "v" to "w" (Samhain, Naimh etc)

No connection at all to Glastonbury, because it is Isle of Glass, a real place.
Ynys Afallach may or may not have been ruled by a Fay King and later Three,  four,  seven or nine Queens / Fay Princesses.  The Welsh "good neighbours"/"People of the Woods", French Le Fay, North of England/ScottishBorder  Elves, The Irish Fair Folk / Aes Side, Scottish Sith  are essentially the same and the people that managed Avalon.
In the earliest stories Morgan Le Fay is one of 3, 4, 7 or 9 "Ladies of the Lake", perilous fay folk that might do good or ill, not a relative of Arthur. Actually Arthur, then Lancelot, Gwain, Mordred, Morgeuse and the Grail only appear in later French stories not the early Welsh ones.
Guinevere means "White Elf". She's one of the Fay, not human in oldest stories.
Manannán's Welsh equivalent is Manawydan fab Llyr and is supposed to have been involved in creation of Avalon, which is a Celtic Otherworld, not a place you can get to without Magic.
Manannán' mac Lir =  Manawydan fab Llyr is ambiguous. Is he simply Fay, or a God, or a half Fay son of Ler (God of the sea, Lir is genative). Note the Lir in the Children of Lir is merely someone with the same name.

Read the oldest Welsh, Norse and Irish Celtic legend.
There are certain parallels between the them. Avalon / Ynys Afallach /  Inis Abhlach / Isle of Apples like Asgard is an "otherworldy" place. The Goddess Iðun has magic apples that keep the Aesir / Vanir in Asgard young and healthy. Ynys Afallach is a place of healing with magic apples (in one story dying Arthur is taken there by three Fay ladies of the lake, one of whom is Morgen le Fay (Morien).  Fay is masculine in French, hence le and not la.

Dead/dying Norse/Skandi are taken to Valhalla and also Freya's hall in Asgard, to be ready for fighting at Ragnarök.
Dying Arthur and others taken to Avalon to arise for some future threat to Wales or Celtic Britain. Note Welsh is Anglo Saxon for Foreigners and before Queen Elizabeth 1st after Normans, only the Welsh, Cornish (Great Britain) and Bretons (Little Britain = Brittany) were British.
Queen Elizabeth 1st insisted to French and Spanish that the English were British too, to cement claims in the New World, because a Welsh prince was alleged to have discovered it. Curiously Vikings really did, before Columbus. Obviously the people living there had a different view.
QE1 was in reality part Welsh anyway.
Much of Shakespeare's Fairy stuff is based on Celtic Welsh and scraps of Celtic myth surviving in England. There is a good free Victorian book about background to a Midsummer Nights Dream (Elves / Fairy / Puck/Robin Goodfellow) with sources in entirety on Gutenberg.org
There are different kinds of Irish Celtic fairy, one is the Púca. The irish Fair Folk, the shee (Aés Sidhe) (Tall, pale, live forever unless you kill them, magical) used the mounds as gateways to their otherworlds. Sometimes they are confused with the Tuath Dé, later erroneously called the Tuatha Dé Danaan.
Tolkien based his Dwarves on the Norse ones, but his elves are unmistakeably Celtic, see the oldest tales.
North of England "Elf" story like Welsh / Irish Fair folk (the people that ran Avalon) is 'Thomas the Rhymer"

I could write much more ....

Wow! That was educational!  i knew about a quarter of it... but i was surprised by some of it-- i had no idea Guenevere was non-human in the OG stories!

So 1) why do you say "erroneously" if Tuatha De Danaan was just a later variant on previous stories of the Tuatha De?  I thought Danaan was a Celtic river goddess and Tuatha De Danaan was supposed to indicate some sort of lineage 2) My understanding was that in irish mythology the Tuatha De invaded from some otherworldly location in the sky (hmmm like stargate?), held parts of ireland until they were essentially exterminated by the Milesians. They were ceeded the space "under the ground", so fairy mounds were actually graveyards.  Aés Sidhe were what the Tuatha De became after death, like the banshee haunting the places they once lived.  I'm not sure how all of that relates to the Fay.  i get my mythology confused...

Offline Ray McCarthy

Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2017, 10:52:06 AM »

So 1) why do you say "erroneously" if Tuatha De Danaan was just a later variant on previous stories of the Tuatha De?  I thought Danaan was a Celtic river goddess and Tuatha De Danaan was supposed to indicate some sort of lineage 2) My understanding was that in irish mythology the Tuatha De invaded from some otherworldly location in the sky (hmmm like stargate?), held parts of ireland until they were essentially exterminated by the Milesians. They were ceeded the space "under the ground", so fairy mounds were actually graveyards.  Aés Sidhe were what the Tuatha De became after death, like the banshee haunting the places they once lived.  I'm not sure how all of that relates to the Fay.  i get my mythology confused...
1)
Danu is a Celtic River Goddess. Most Celts lived in Europe. They ruled German Tribes. She is the Goddess of the Danube. All the major European rivers had Celtic Goddesses. She was never an IRISH Goddess. When the Irish Monks were writing down the oral tales, or sometimes copying stuff it's thought today they didn't delete or change much. They did add Christian stuff like Gaelic one of the languages  straight after Tower of Babel and the stone Jacob used as a pillow being the the Stone of Destiny* (a typo or mistranslation, more likely Stone of Shadows, the ancient coronation stone sent to Scotland). The top Irish river goddess are Sionna and Bóinn (Rivers Shannon and Boyne)
The Shannon river is named after Sionna, a goddess  whose name means “possessor of wisdom”.
In the Irish language the noun sionnach means “fox” but the genitive version sionnaigh means “of the fox”. The more common modern Irish is "red dog" madra rua  (Though dearg rather than rua is usual for red or even ginger hair).
Main Irish River Goddesses:
Boann,Bóand,Bóinn, Bóinne (of the River Boyne),
Sionna,Sionann (older spelling: Sínann or Sínand) (the River Shannon)
Érne (Rivers / Lakes Erne)
Eithne (River Inny)
Odras (The River Odras, in modern Irish Odhras, must correspond to the today’s River Boyle, an Bhúill in Irish, flowing from Lough Garra, through the village of Boyle and into Lough Key, Co. Roscommon.)

I can't find a definitive list of Irish river goddesses. Anna is modern for the Liffey. The Bann (two rivers with Lough Neagh in the middle, the two or three main Blackwater Rivers (Ulster & Cork), Lagan and the three sisters Barrow, Nore & Suir must have associated Celtic Goddesses. Perhaps the Place Name poems explain.

The Three Sisters:  Barrow, Nore & Suir
An Bhearú, An Fheoir and An tSiúr or Abhainn na Siúire. The English Suir is probably an old error. Triads are VERY important**

The Blackwater Rivers
Modern names. In Ireland, the name of the two rivers an Abhainn Mhór in Ulster (erroneously anglicized as the Blackriver and the Blackwater) signifies ‘Great River’, while the name of the river an Abhainn Dubh in Co. Cavan (Ulster) means ‘Black River’, and the name of the river an Uinsinn (the Unshin) in Connacht meant ‘the River of the Ash Tree’. These names are thus descriptive and involve no particular religious tradition. However it's likely they had older names associated with Goddesses.

Some Non-Irish (often Latinised) Celtic water Goddesses.
Rivers:
Sequana (River Seine)
Abhnoba (Avon, remember bh is often a v sound)
Sabrina (Severn)
Danu (Goddess of River Danube)
Souconna (River Saône)
Icauni (River Yonne)
Matrona (River Marne)
Verbeia (River Wharfe)


Fountain-goddesses: Acionna, Icovellauna, Coventina, Sianna/Stanna and Mogontia
Spring-goddesses: Damona, Sirona, Sulis, Bormana and Bricta. Possibly Divonna.

2) Tuath Dé, Tuatha de Danann, Fair Folk, Fairy Host.
"Aés Sidhe were what the Tuatha De became after death, like the banshee haunting the places they once lived.". That is in NO old Irish writing at all. It's a very late idea that the ban sidhe (woman fay) appearance is before a death. Also we don't know ANYTHING much about what ancient Celts before Christianity believed. Roman records are useless. It's thought they might have believed in re-incarnation.  Nowhere, even in 19th C is the idea that Aés Sidhe are dead Tuatha Dé, if there is, it's a modern idea like dead people becoming Angels.
The Book of Invasions has a history of peoples coming to Ireland. The Tuath Dé came from the north and displaced more primitive people (FirBlog = Men of the bags). They in turn were replaced by Celts, some of whom came from Spain (Milesian = of King Milius). This seems to be about 550BC, gradually then the "histories" get more historical so by 400AD or so we get probably actual people listed.
The Sidhe are also called people of the Mounds. It's really even the same word. In later folk stories the Sidhe live in the mounds, but it's also clear that the Fair Folk or Fairy Host were thought to use them as gateways to Fay (Fairy) otherworlds. Other Irish words for a Fay person/Fairy are Sióg and  Púca.
The later Celts seem to deify the Tuath Dé, but in the early stories they are like Bronze Age Celts, mostly not magical and the Fay (The Fairy Host or Aés Sidhe) are a separate magical people (all magical) that live in Otherworlds with a different sense of time (Oisin and other stories). Sometimes they help the Tuath Dé against the Fomorians (two kinds, pre -Milesian ones and later Celtic era "Sea pirates", probably early Scandi, Norse etc. Vikings are later). Other times they steal princes or princesses. Some characters are presented sometimes as Tuath Dé (human) or Sidhe (Fay).
Later legends are quite confused.

Why Tuatha De Danaan?
The monks were translating the bible into Irish, not just making Latin illuminated  stuff. Israelites are the Tribe of God, which in Irish is Tuath Dé. So the monks edited the name of the legendary people to Tuatha De Danaan. It's not 100% agreed that Danaan is really the genitive of Danu, nor known why they chose her.
The story is that after the final battle with the Milesian Celts, that Manannán Mac Lir led the Tuath Dé away to an otherworld via the mounds, hence the "allowed to have the underground".

* Stone of Destiny is an interesting story.
** The story of St Patrick and shamrock is probably myth. Celts then had a concept of three in one. The Morrígna and others. They and earlier Tuath Dé (probably based on real Bronze age Proto Celts) adopted the Triple Spiral of the Stone Age (pre 2000BC).

   

Offline Ray McCarthy

Re: Naming a country conundrum
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2017, 11:01:50 AM »
Fae = one fairy, Faerie = loads of fairies or of the Fae.
We get Fay from the French for fairy
Fey is unrelated, it's to do with a curse
The Medieval scholars argued about what the Sidhe/Good Neighbours/Elves (not the little mainland ones)/Faerie/Fay actually are. Some thought separate to Angels, Nephilim and humans.  Others thought a kind of angel exiled but that didn't join Satan.

The native language of the Sidhe is thought to be a little like Irish and is called in Irish "Tenga Sióg" (= Tongue of Fairy, as in older English Tongues = Languages see KJ AV book of Acts).