July 11, 2020, 09:47:41 AM

Author Topic: The Virus thread  (Read 11978 times)

Online ScarletBea

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Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #255 on: June 03, 2020, 08:49:14 PM »
Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Unless Americans are very different - Europe has had lockdown for over 2 months and there haven't been protests or riots on this scale.
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Offline Skip

Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #256 on: June 04, 2020, 05:54:33 AM »
The U.S. has deep cultural divisions, an incompetent government, the highest death rate from the virus, and the highest unemployment. Europeans and American have their differences, but those differences pale in comparison to the differences in socio-economic conditions. Different conditions usually lead to different results.

I sincerely hope no European nation ever has to go through what we've been enduring. And yes, I know we brought it on ourselves.


Offline Caith

Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #257 on: June 04, 2020, 08:44:57 AM »
The UK has deep cultural divisions - if by divisions you mean the difference between the elite, the top 1% and the rest of us.
The UK has an incompetent government - check - see next point for evidence of same.
The UK has the highest COVID death rate in Europe and we're close to the top in the world.
High unemployment? - not yet but stick around for a few months.

Not so different conditions between the US and UK? Maybe we're closer to civil unrest than we think? What's happened in the US with the demonstrations appears to have happened remarkably quickly and on first inspection seems to have come from nowhere. Thats what tipping points tend to loook like. You don't know you're at one until its too late.

Offline Rostum

Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #258 on: June 04, 2020, 02:11:42 PM »
Just a point or two.

To be in the global 1% you need cash or assets in excess of $850,000 about the price of a garage in Islington, you know the trendy bit of London where Labours manifesto is drawn up. and the cultural differences are?

Politics has very little to do with Government, the machine is largely unchanged despite which MPs are involved.

How about considering why the UK and USA have such high death rates? Are our health services so poor? Are they treating an ageing and unhealthy population? Are we detecting and treating a lot of the underlying conditions that are missed or not there in other countries populations? Are we reporting Covid as the cause of death accurately?

In April the UK spent as much as it spent in 2019. This will inevitably have an effect, but probably not as much in the UK as in the USA. Our economies are very different and thankfully the safeguards here much greater.
The traditional way of getting out of recession or depression is growth in the economy and part of that process is governments printing bonds. I wonder will there be a Euro bond that levels the wealth of those partaking in this currency or will the 4 or so countries that actually pay in to the EU protect their own economies over those of southern and Eastern Europe? Brexit could be very secondary to the economic fragmentation of the EU.

Quote
Not so different conditions between the US and UK? Maybe we're closer to civil unrest than we think? What's happened in the US with the demonstrations appears to have happened remarkably quickly and on first inspection seems to have come from nowhere. That's what tipping points tend to look like. You don't know you're at one until it's too late.

This is very interesting to me. I suspect we get our news and commentary from very different sources. I would say that this situation has been inevitable since the LA riots in America and largely because 'lessons were not learned'and while we have had race riots in the UK I don't see the same factors in the UK as in  the USA

Offline Skip

Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #259 on: June 04, 2020, 04:10:50 PM »
I'm not sure if we're talking about the protests against Covid lockdowns or the protests against police brutality. We've got both.
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Offline Rostum

Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #260 on: June 04, 2020, 05:02:19 PM »
Is there a clear line delineating the two any more?

Offline Skip

Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #261 on: June 04, 2020, 10:02:28 PM »
Absolutely there's a clear line. Two completely different factions, which speaks to one of the several cultural divides in America. Also, there are distinctions to be made among those who are out on the streets, both now and in the earlier anti-lockdown movements.

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Offline xiagan

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Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #262 on: June 05, 2020, 08:58:11 AM »
I don't think @The Gem Cutter is so wrong. There is a (so far unprecedented in newer history) crisis because of Corona and existing problems like police brutality, racial inequality, a healthcare system that is as bad as it is expensive or class warfare - which were simmering until now, suddenly ignite and explode. A crisis always exposes the weak points in a system and the US has/had a lot of those weak points. Stressed and combined, it's really not that surprising and I think the USA are at a breaking point/crossroads now.
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Offline Peat

Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #263 on: June 05, 2020, 09:28:36 AM »
I'm not sure if we're talking about the protests against Covid lockdowns or the protests against police brutality. We've got both.

Man, I'd completely forgotten those anti-lockdown protests were a thing. But yeah, they were, and they were totally different. And crazy.

Although I guess not that crazy if you're someone who thinks the key virtue of the US should be the freedom to do things and to distrust anything looking to take it away.
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Offline Skip

Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #264 on: June 05, 2020, 04:36:56 PM »
> the key virtue of the US should be the freedom to do things
Emphatically not our key virtue, though there are those who do believe that. "Freedom to do things" is the ideal of middle schoolers.
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Offline Rostum

Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #265 on: June 06, 2020, 12:14:52 AM »
Absolutely there's a clear line. Two completely different factions, which speaks to one of the several cultural divides in America. Also, there are distinctions to be made among those who are out on the streets, both now and in the earlier anti-lockdown movements.

The devil often lurks in the details, but so does understanding.


The way its being commented on here in the UK a lot of Americans are angry and protesting some have been very eloquent in the why others not so much. A lot just seem angry and scared and are facing an uncertain future.

A lot of the tacticool brigade whom the BBC in particular like to paint as gun toting fascists seem to totally support the protest of Floyds death but are prepared to shoot looters should things turn violent in their neighbourhoods. Only in America! It is a sign of how far out of step the police are with the public opinion.

Moving over to a more appropriate thread for some thoughts on this.

http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/general-discussion/politics-and-other-ailments-of-the-real-world/

« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 12:17:32 AM by Rostum »

Offline Peat

Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #266 on: June 06, 2020, 10:15:36 AM »
> the key virtue of the US should be the freedom to do things
Emphatically not our key virtue, though there are those who do believe that. "Freedom to do things" is the ideal of middle schoolers.

Without disagreeing with you on how it should be, it feels like there's a need for a big discussion on that in America. Not that it's alone in having a major faultline split in terms of national self-image.
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Online ScarletBea

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Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #267 on: June 06, 2020, 06:48:53 PM »
Can we have these installed everywhere, please?

http://www.odo.co/dropkick
"Dropkick, a pedestrian button that is designed to be kicked, was birthed out of an observation that pedestrian crossing buttons get kicked by users reluctant to use their bare hands."

The other day I was trying to cross a road, and the light would only turn green if I pressed the button, and I *really* didn't want to do that... ended up using my elbow, but on the way back it was a different setting and my elbow wasn't thin enough to trigger the button, hehe, had to use my finger covered by a bit of jacket.

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Offline Magnus Hedén

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Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #268 on: June 06, 2020, 10:07:00 PM »
Buttons on pedestrian lights are placebos in most places. The lights activate go by sensors, but whenever the buttons were removed, people were upset. So they put the buttons back but they don't actually do anything, and people were happy again because they felt they were in control.

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Re: The Virus thread
« Reply #269 on: June 06, 2020, 10:28:20 PM »
Buttons on pedestrian lights are placebos in most places. The lights activate go by sensors, but whenever the buttons were removed, people were upset. So they put the buttons back but they don't actually do anything, and people were happy again because they felt they were in control.

Silly humans.
Oh in many locations that is definitely true! I remember when I lived in the other flat and walked to work every day, there was a crossroads that always turned red/green on a given schedule, but still there was a button for pedestrians and people still clicked it and expected the green, even though it didn't do anything.
This one I mentioned was definitely just activated by the button, and would never turn green to pedestrians otherwise, as it wasn't at a crossroad.
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