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Author Topic: The King's Paws (with one holding a bottle of Peri Peri sauce.)  (Read 1048217 times)

Offline Raptori

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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1200 on: July 05, 2015, 12:47:23 PM »
My tagline reminds me of this image:

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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1201 on: July 05, 2015, 02:26:03 PM »
As far as I know (and was taught), americans use that comma while british don't.

I would never read the second sentence the way it's portrayed :)
In a list, you need an 'and' before the last item, so to mean the picture, it would have to be "I had eggs and toast and orange juice."
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Offline Raptori

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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1202 on: July 05, 2015, 02:32:10 PM »
As far as I know (and was taught), americans use that comma while british don't.

I would never read the second sentence the way it's portrayed :)
In a list, you need an 'and' before the last item, so to mean the picture, it would have to be "I had eggs and toast and orange juice."
Weird, I've always used it since it just makes more sense to me.

Not sure what you mean by that last sentence, I'm confused now...  :-[
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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1203 on: July 05, 2015, 02:46:45 PM »
Let me try to explain:

* "I had eggs, toast and orange juice" --> for me this is obviously a list with 3 elements: 1 (eggs), 2 (toast) AND 3 (juice)

I would never read it thinking that he had toast with juice on.

* "I had eggs, toast, and orange juice" --> that last comma is totally redundant to me.

In my brain, to describe a list of things you have to say "1 AND 2", or "1, 2 AND 3", and so on.
So to think that "I had eggs, toast and orange juice" equals 2 items doesn't make sense to me, because then you are saying "1, 2" -- with no AND.
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Offline Raptori

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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1204 on: July 05, 2015, 03:01:22 PM »
Let me try to explain:

* "I had eggs, toast and orange juice" --> for me this is obviously a list with 3 elements: 1 (eggs), 2 (toast) AND 3 (juice)

I would never read it thinking that he had toast with juice on.

* "I had eggs, toast, and orange juice" --> that last comma is totally redundant to me.

In my brain, to describe a list of things you have to say "1 AND 2", or "1, 2 AND 3", and so on.
So to think that "I had eggs, toast and orange juice" equals 2 items doesn't make sense to me, because then you are saying "1, 2" -- with no AND.
I still think that argument has a flaw - the separation of the final two items is implied, but not everyone will always read it with that implication in mind, and there are situations where the implication is not enough. As an example: you want to list three snacks that you had, and each snack contains a drink and some food. To me it only makes sense with an oxford comma, without it the sentence becomes very confusing. It's a more obvious example of what can go wrong when you don't include that comma in a less complex list imo.

I had chocolate and coke, cookies and tea, and cake and smoothie.

vs

I had chocolate and coke, cookies and tea and cake and smoothie.

(I wish)  :P

In that earlier example, what if they had been listed in the order juice, eggs, and toast? Structuring it as "juice, eggs and toast" makes it unclear whether the eggs and toast are separate items in the list (especially if there had been more than three items in the list).
 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 03:03:25 PM by Raptori »
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Offline Doctor_Chill

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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1205 on: July 05, 2015, 03:24:56 PM »
As far as I know (and was taught), americans use that comma while british don't.

So what you're saying is the Americans finally have something up on the British? Hell yeah I'll take it.

But I can't understand why anybody wouldn't use the Oxford comma. It's maddening.
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Offline JMack

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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1206 on: July 05, 2015, 03:37:41 PM »
There's a book titled "Eats, Shoots and Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation.

Quote
Who would have thought a book about punctuation could cause such a sensation? Certainly not its modest if indignant author, who began her surprise hit motivated by "horror" and "despair" at the current state of British usage: ungrammatical signs ("BOB,S PETS"), headlines ("DEAD SONS PHOTOS MAY BE RELEASED") and band names ("Hear'Say") drove journalist and novelist Truss absolutely batty. But this spirited and wittily instructional little volume, which was a U.K. #1 bestseller, is not a grammar book, Truss insists; like a self-help volume, it "gives you permission to love punctuation." Her approach falls between the descriptive and prescriptive schools of grammar study, but is closer, perhaps, to the latter. (A self-professed "stickler," Truss recommends that anyone putting an apostrophe in a possessive "its"-as in "the dog chewed it's bone"-should be struck by lightning and chopped to bits.) Employing a chatty tone that ranges from pleasant rant to gentle lecture to bemused dismay, Truss dissects common errors that grammar mavens have long deplored (often, as she readily points out, in isolation) and makes elegant arguments for increased attention to punctuation correctness: "without it there is no reliable way of communicating meaning." Interspersing her lessons with bits of history (the apostrophe dates from the 16th century; the first semicolon appeared in 1494) and plenty of wit, Truss serves up delightful, unabashedly strict and sometimes snobby little book, with cheery Britishisms ("Lawks-a-mussy!") dotting pages that express a more international righteous indignation.

Sounds like a book we should all own.
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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1207 on: July 05, 2015, 03:39:53 PM »
I've read it, it's great :D
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Offline Nora

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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1208 on: July 05, 2015, 04:15:46 PM »
Wow! That sure sound strange. I've never ever met a single Canadian who'd fit such a harsh description. They're generally nice, helpful and polite and easy going. Never had a hassle with one, work with a few and climbed with others.
But hey, every country in the world has these kinds of people.
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Offline Elfy

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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1209 on: July 06, 2015, 12:34:43 AM »
There's a book titled "Eats, Shoots and Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation.

Quote
Who would have thought a book about punctuation could cause such a sensation? Certainly not its modest if indignant author, who began her surprise hit motivated by "horror" and "despair" at the current state of British usage: ungrammatical signs ("BOB,S PETS"), headlines ("DEAD SONS PHOTOS MAY BE RELEASED") and band names ("Hear'Say") drove journalist and novelist Truss absolutely batty. But this spirited and wittily instructional little volume, which was a U.K. #1 bestseller, is not a grammar book, Truss insists; like a self-help volume, it "gives you permission to love punctuation." Her approach falls between the descriptive and prescriptive schools of grammar study, but is closer, perhaps, to the latter. (A self-professed "stickler," Truss recommends that anyone putting an apostrophe in a possessive "its"-as in "the dog chewed it's bone"-should be struck by lightning and chopped to bits.) Employing a chatty tone that ranges from pleasant rant to gentle lecture to bemused dismay, Truss dissects common errors that grammar mavens have long deplored (often, as she readily points out, in isolation) and makes elegant arguments for increased attention to punctuation correctness: "without it there is no reliable way of communicating meaning." Interspersing her lessons with bits of history (the apostrophe dates from the 16th century; the first semicolon appeared in 1494) and plenty of wit, Truss serves up delightful, unabashedly strict and sometimes snobby little book, with cheery Britishisms ("Lawks-a-mussy!") dotting pages that express a more international righteous indignation.

Sounds like a book we should all own.
That title always reminds me of the joke about a wombat. 'What does a wombat do?'
'Eats, roots, and leaves.'
It helps if you know the slang meaning of the word 'root' in Australia (it is not barracking for a sports team).
I will expand your TBR pile.

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Offline Rostum

Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1210 on: July 06, 2015, 01:11:07 AM »
Missed an & not a comma, British don'tcha know.

Quote
Wow! That sure sound strange. I've never ever met a single Canadian who'd fit such a harsh description. They're generally nice, helpful and polite and easy going. Never had a hassle with one, work with a few and climbed with others.
But hey, every country in the world has these kinds of people.

It was very shocking and surprising. We were moved hotels after two days by our travel agent it was that bad.
Canadians everywhere else have been great, but it's irresistable fun to ask them which part of the USA they are from.

Offline Nora

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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1211 on: July 06, 2015, 03:15:21 AM »
Oblivious french in Oz is oblivious...
However late I might be... Happy independence day guys.

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Offline Nighteyes

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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1212 on: July 06, 2015, 05:24:00 AM »
There's a book titled "Eats, Shoots and Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation.

Quote
Who would have thought a book about punctuation could cause such a sensation? Certainly not its modest if indignant author, who began her surprise hit motivated by "horror" and "despair" at the current state of British usage: ungrammatical signs ("BOB,S PETS"), headlines ("DEAD SONS PHOTOS MAY BE RELEASED") and band names ("Hear'Say") drove journalist and novelist Truss absolutely batty. But this spirited and wittily instructional little volume, which was a U.K. #1 bestseller, is not a grammar book, Truss insists; like a self-help volume, it "gives you permission to love punctuation." Her approach falls between the descriptive and prescriptive schools of grammar study, but is closer, perhaps, to the latter. (A self-professed "stickler," Truss recommends that anyone putting an apostrophe in a possessive "its"-as in "the dog chewed it's bone"-should be struck by lightning and chopped to bits.) Employing a chatty tone that ranges from pleasant rant to gentle lecture to bemused dismay, Truss dissects common errors that grammar mavens have long deplored (often, as she readily points out, in isolation) and makes elegant arguments for increased attention to punctuation correctness: "without it there is no reliable way of communicating meaning." Interspersing her lessons with bits of history (the apostrophe dates from the 16th century; the first semicolon appeared in 1494) and plenty of wit, Truss serves up delightful, unabashedly strict and sometimes snobby little book, with cheery Britishisms ("Lawks-a-mussy!") dotting pages that express a more international righteous indignation.

Sounds like a book we should all own.
That title always reminds me of the joke about a wombat. 'What does a wombat do?'
'Eats, roots, and leaves.'
It helps if you know the slang meaning of the word 'root' in Australia (it is not barracking for a sports team).

Ummm that's kinda the point. It is supposed to remind you of the many varieties of that joke. The book actually uses the more innocent variation of the panda firing his gun, but there is a well known version of the joke which trades on another meaning for shooting.
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Offline Hedin

Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1213 on: July 06, 2015, 01:28:04 PM »
As far as I know (and was taught), americans use that comma while british don't.

So what you're saying is the Americans finally have something up on the British? Hell yeah I'll take it.

But I can't understand why anybody wouldn't use the Oxford comma. It's maddening.

I'm with you, that seems to be English 101.  Between this and adding in random u's all over the place I wonder if the English actually have English 101.

Offline JMack

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Re: The King's Paws
« Reply #1214 on: July 06, 2015, 01:58:31 PM »
Wouldn't you know it? One of the motivations behind Americans dropping the "u" was... profit thrift. Of course.  ;)

Quote
Besides political reasons, Webster also felt that he was creating linguistic order with his changes, and, in thrifty New England fashion, he made an argument that his spelling reforms would save money. In a 1789 essay, he wrote, “Such a reform would diminish the number of letters about one sixteenth or eighteenth. This would save a page in eighteen; and a saving of an eighteenth in the expense of the books, is an advantage that should not be overlooked.”

Here's the whole article. Pretty darn interesting.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Why We Have Both “Color” and “Colour”

Find out why Noah Webster simplified American spelling—and what differences weren’t his idea.
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/why-we-have-both-%E2%80%9Ccolor%E2%80%9D-and-%E2%80%9Ccolour%E2%80%9D

Have you ever wondered why the British spell “color” with a “u” and Americans don’t? Or why the British spell “theater” with an “re” at the end and Americans spell it with an “er” at the end? We all know that these spelling differences exist, but not everyone knows why they exist. Today, we’re going to find out!

It turns out that Noah Webster of Webster’s dictionary fame is behind many, but not all, of the spelling differences between British and American English, and his reasons for making the changes were as much political and philosophical as linguistic. I was inspired to do this podcast by a book I just finished, called The Forgotten Founding Father: Noah Webster’s Obsession and the Creation of an American Culture by Joshua Kendall. I know many of you reading are not Americans, but I hope you will indulge me and end up finding this story as interesting as I do.


Early America

Noah Webster lived smack in the middle of the time when Americans were still trying to form a country and figure out who they were. To give you some perspective, the United States Constitution was ratified between the time Webster published his first spelling book and when he started working on his famous dictionary.

Americans were eager to break with Britain as fully as possible and weren’t even sure that English should be the primary language. Nearly 10% of the population spoke German, so some people suggested German should be our language. Others proposed Hebrew, and others thought we should call our language Columbian.

“Zee” Versus “Zed”

Noah Webster's influence is why Americans call the final letter "zee" instead of "zed."
Webster undertook his first big project--an American spelling book to replace the British book schools were then using--in part, to settle the matter and convince people that our language should be English, but American English. It was in this book that he took small steps to begin creating American spellings. It was also in the speller that he taught Americans to pronounce the name of the final letter of the alphabet as “zee” instead of “zed” as the British do.

Political Rationale for Spelling Reform

Webster is best known now as the dictionary writer, but in his time he was involved in politics and knew George Washington and Benjamin Franklin quite well. He regularly wrote political essays, letters, and tracts, and early in his career, he felt that an American language was necessary to hold the country together. In his lectures, he criticized Americans for studying Hebrew, Greek, Latin, French, and German, but neglecting English; and he wrote, “America must be as independent in literature as she is in politics---as famous for arts as for arms.”

The Compendious Dictionary: “Color” Versus “Colour” and More

Before he wrote his big dictionary, he wrote a smaller book titled the Compendious Dictionary, and it was in this work that he really got rolling on spelling reform. For example,

He dropped the “u” from “colour,” “honour,” and “a few words of that class” as he called them in his introduction.
He changed “theatre” (re) to “theater "(er).
He substituted an “s” for the “c” in “defence," “offence,” and “pretence.”
He dropped the second “l” in words such as “travelled” and “cancelled.”
He changed the “s” to “z” in a few words such as “patronise.”
He also included changes that had already been suggested by others such as omitting the “k” from the end of “magic” and “logic” and spelling “risk” with a “k” instead of a “que” at the end.

Simplicity and Order

Besides political reasons, Webster also felt that he was creating linguistic order with his changes, and, in thrifty New England fashion, he made an argument that his spelling reforms would save money. In a 1789 essay, he wrote, “Such a reform would diminish the number of letters about one sixteenth or eighteenth. This would save a page in eighteen; and a saving of an eighteenth in the expense of the books, is an advantage that should not be overlooked.”

Failed Changes

Some critics thought he went too far with his reforms, and in later dictionaries, he undid some of the changes he had published. For example, he had omitted the final “e” in words such as “doctrine,” “discipline,” and “medicine”, and spelled “ache” as “ake,” “soup” as “soop,” “tongue” as “tung,” “women” as “wimmen,” and “weather” as “wether.” These changes were later reversed, although he sometimes included notes recommending what he would then call alternative spellings.

“Program” versus “Programme”

One change difference between British and American spelling that isn’t Webster’s doing is the British spelling of “programme.” According to Fowler’s Modern English Usage, it was spelled without the final “me,” as Americans spell it now, in both British and American English until the beginning of the nineteenth century when the British adopted the French “-me” spelling and Americans did not.

[Note that the British spell the word "program" when writing about computer programs.]

“Aluminum” versus “Aluminium”

A second difference we can’t attribute to Webster is the American “aluminum” versus the British “aluminium.” Both Fowler and Garners Modern American Usage note that Sir Humphrey Davy, a British chemist who discovered the element in 1812, gave it the name aluminum. Soon after, British writers suggested that it be changed to “aluminium” to match better the names of other elements such as “sodium” and “potassium.” Webster recorded it as Davy had named it, and British dictionaries later included it in their books as “aluminium.”

Webster

By the time he finished his dictionary, which took about 28 years to write, Webster no longer seemed driven by the idea of an American language. He had turned his attention to word origins and made arguments for his changes based on etymology. Nevertheless, he was the creator of many of the spellings that characterize American English today. His story is fascinating, and I’m sure many of you would enjoy reading more about his life and work.
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