April 06, 2020, 09:29:29 PM

Poll

Readers perfer authors of their own sex, yay or nay?

Yay
3 (10.7%)
Nay
4 (14.3%)
It depends (tell why, is it the genre for example?)
0 (0%)
I don't care about gender
21 (75%)

Total Members Voted: 27

Author Topic: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds  (Read 7368 times)

Offline cupiscent

Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2016, 12:59:28 AM »
I think @m3mnoch is right - epic fantasy is seen as a playground for boys. In much the same way as the sciences and gaming are still seen as boys' playgrounds.

My view is: the system isn't fair. I wish it was as well. I wish gender (and race, and sexuality, and religion, and...) didn't matter. But that isn't the system we have at present.

So, if we care about fairness - about getting to a situation where stuff that shouldn't matter doesn't matter - what are we doing to help? We can't really do anything directly to change the publishing / editing / marketing level. All we can control as readers is what we read, what we buy, what we tell other people they should try reading and/or buying (and hope that the message gets through to the publishing/editing/marketing level - Hollywood seems to be sloooowly getting it, maybe publishing will too).

I don't really see any way to do that other than reading more lady authors and stories about ladies?

Offline Nora

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Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2016, 01:51:11 AM »
Still disagree on the "importance" of editors. Just because you can't name one doesn't mean they aren't important. The history of literature is full of editors who accepted writers who went from zero to hero, and might have stayed completely unknown, in times where self pub existed only for the mega rich as a form of vanity.
It isn't a flattery of the editor, since sometimes authors were refused 10, 20 times and nearly gave up, but if they had given up, then they wouldn't be known (and how many geniuses did we lose because of editors?)
Just because you can't name one doesn't mean that they aren't a crucial cog in the industry.

I also think that we're not talking of the exact same scene. I've never been to the states, I'm not talking about the states, beyond my nurse example. I talk about Europe mostly, because it's what I understand best.

In Finland 50% of doctors are female. In Estonia, Latvia, Crotia and other countries, 3/4 of doctors are women. Apparently 14 UE countries have more female than male physicians, compared to 12 countries where the opposite is true :

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Healthcare_personnel_statistics_-_physicians#Healthcare_personnel

Which doesn't mean that women aren't discriminated... but my personal experience in medicine in France is that I never struggled to find women physician, and hardly ever had anything else. My GP, dentists, and gyneco were all females. The only domain I ever only consulted with males was optometry for some reason.

You what sells links has quite a few women in it. 3 out of 5 in the 'top 5' are women.
Honestly I'm way more sad to see Meyer in the top 5 than to see that 1/3 of beest selling books come from women.
I just don't see an issue with it. Until it's proven that they sell more because they're written by men, it doesn't bug me. Also the list includes old classics from days where women where totally under-represented.
What about the best selling authors published in 2015 or 2014? –I don't have the answer, I'm just curious to see what modern publishing looks like– because this last year I've read a lot of amazing books by women (uprooted, novik, lady trent novels, the long way...)

Quote
you're confusing equal success with equal opportunity.  guaranteed success is a terrible idea.  guaranteed opportunity to prove yourself good would be awesome.

Yes that's what I was answering to, but I think it's because it's also what you react to. I mean, you give me finished %, of what sells at the end, who gets hired at the end, etc. The percentage that's visible, once success is visible. But to have a better idea of equal 'opportunity', the % I'd like to see is :

- from females submitting MS to editors, what % gets published.
- from males submitting MS to editors, what % gets published.
- male to female ratio of wannabe authors.

By showing percentages of what sells, you're not proving to me that women don't get equal chance to publish in SFF, as of today.

Because if it turns out that an editor sees 60% male MS, and the market has 60% male authors, then truly the problem comes from women not trying to get published enough, or willing to, or interested to.

We're having an argument, again, by pointing fingers at the white male. But he's not the culprit. Where is the culprit in the system? Where is the reform supposed to start, hmm? To overthrow the white man?
Is it editors? is it too few female authors? is it female authors not being as interested in fantasy as men for some reason? or is it parents not raising they daughters with enough shovels of LOTR, Narnia and HP?

You know what, at the end of the day, if it were thoroughly proven that female authors generally prefer writing non SFF fiction to SFF, of their own free will, and the field stayed at 60% male authors, so long as I have equal chance in the eye of my editor, I honestly don't care.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline Sindran

Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2016, 04:54:42 AM »
Welp, I posted this about a year ago and suddenly got lots of emails saying this had been replied to. Glad to see this thread came back to life. Interesting ideas everyone!

Offline Nora

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Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2016, 05:34:24 AM »
Not trying to rub anything anywhere, but I was browsing through the Goodreads best books 2015 awards, where the common readers vote an nominate their favorite books and was pleased by the Fantasy results :

Out of 20 nominees, 12 authors are female. The award goes to Gaiman, but he only has 3.000 votes over VE Schwab.
This on 33.681 voters.

I think that is better value than any unknown poll, that women writing fantasy aren't in such a bad place these days.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline Eclipse

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Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2016, 06:35:25 AM »
Not trying to rub anything anywhere, but I was browsing through the Goodreads best books 2015 awards, where the common readers vote an nominate their favorite books and was pleased by the Fantasy results :

Out of 20 nominees, 12 authors are female. The award goes to Gaiman, but he only has 3.000 votes over VE Schwab.
This on 33.681 voters.

I think that is better value than any unknown poll, that women writing fantasy aren't in such a bad place these days.

Are you counting PR in that? As I call those book more romantic books then fantasy myself
According to some,* heroic deaths are admirable things

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Offline Nora

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Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2016, 08:57:42 AM »
I'm not counting anything, I did not even vote for it.

PR includes characters of the Fantasy realm, and hence fall under the Fantasy tag, which is broad by definition. This sort of poll I see just like democratie. You migh not like the outcome, but it's what the masses decided on.
Besides, it poses a problem to anyone who would say there are more male than female readers, since you'd think there'd be less PR in that case.
Or maybe you can argue there are more female than male goodread users?

33 thousand people had the whole field of fantasy to chose from, and 12 female authors came on top.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline Eclipse

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Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2016, 09:34:22 AM »
When did I say you voted for it? Goodreads contest is just a popularity contest in my view like others like it, its not the best written works that win its that the most famous authors who always come out on top.
According to some,* heroic deaths are admirable things

* Generally those who don't have to do it.Politicians and writers spring to mind

Jonathan Stroud:Ptolmy's Gate

Offline Eclipse

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Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2016, 10:00:58 AM »
I think you misunderstood me when I said counted I meant how many of those writers were PR as I don't regard them as fantasy in my view I regard them as romance.
According to some,* heroic deaths are admirable things

* Generally those who don't have to do it.Politicians and writers spring to mind

Jonathan Stroud:Ptolmy's Gate

Offline Nora

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Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2016, 03:30:37 PM »
No sorry, it's a double misunderstanding. I didn't imply you thought I voted for it, but I did understand your point, as in, I personally understand you but disagree.

In so far as fantastical horror is a subgenre of fantasy I don't read and consider as "horror" in the same way that a PR with vampires and elves might be a simple "romance" in your books, but belong to the wider Fantasy range–I think, whether you like it or not.

Of course it's a poll of opinion that makes famous people come on top, because they have more coverage, or because they are famous for a reason–bigger readership, etc–but regardless, people having to pick from the 2015 books chose those, and women author came on top.
I've read some PR, and most often I see it as a subgenre of UF, so I also find it disappointing, but I also don't read Gaiman, and didn't like A Darker Shade Of Magic either!

Of course for the sake of this argument it'd be better if we could have the same poll for fantasy books minus PR, but where do we draw the line after that? Anne Rice is definitely PR as well as Dark Fantasy, yet she is a monument of the genre...
Besides, maybe the people who voted for the PR books also read other more core fantasy works but preferred the PRs overall? Who knows... Maybe it's the ugly truth of the Fantasy genre, that PR is a main branch in it that attracts lots of disdain from the other branches, but is one of the main focuses of people coming from other genres?

I think PR's quality is that it can ensnare more regular fiction readers who'd be after a more original fiction, and might end up stuck in the deep shifting sands of Fantasy and sink ever deeper, all the way to the bottom where we dwell.
I've read pure epic fantasy along PR as a teen and remember both fondly.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline Eclipse

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Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2016, 04:53:46 PM »
Likes your reply, if it gets people into reading it can only be a good thing.
According to some,* heroic deaths are admirable things

* Generally those who don't have to do it.Politicians and writers spring to mind

Jonathan Stroud:Ptolmy's Gate

Offline Nora

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Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2016, 12:24:14 AM »
One can only hope...  ;D
But I see it happen with YA, teens discovering a series universe and then asking for more, and being open to suggestions of "more proper fantasy"... So we can hope that some of the overly excited female readership of stuff like the black dagger brotherhood reads other stuff.

Actually I think I'm going to go and follow on commenters profiles and see what the average PR fan had in her reading shelves.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline CryptofCthulhu

Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2016, 01:46:12 PM »
They needed a survey to figure out the obvious?
“Silence is only frightening to people who are compulsively verbalizing.” ~ William S. Boroughs

Offline Nora

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Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2016, 01:56:46 PM »
They needed a survey to figure out the obvious?

How is it obvious? It doesn't apply to me at least.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Readers prefer authors of their own sex, survey finds
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2016, 04:20:12 PM »
Based on the length of this discussion, I don't think it's obvious.