July 11, 2020, 08:10:43 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 337690 times)

Offline Magnus Hedén

  • High Lord of commas and Grand Master of semicolons
  • Ambient Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
  • Total likes: 324
  • Gender: Male
  • My name is Magnus. I make stuff up.
    • View Profile
    • My Patreon
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3600 on: June 25, 2020, 09:53:27 AM »
Those people you mentioned who were brutalised and killed by the police would also have been helped by the ideas that BLM in general stand for: the defunding and complete reformation of the US police force, which currently is poorly trained, or not trained at all, at de-escalation (and instead tend to escalate the violence when they arrive), is using up a massive budget for what basically qualifies as weapons of war, and is so corrupt that it literally allows cops to get away with murder.

What puts the focus on black people is that they're disproportionately affected. But lifting up even more cases of police getting away with brutality and murder doesn't weaken the arguments of the BLM movement, it strengthens it. The fact that anyone needs to fear being assaulted or killed by a police officer who won't be held unaccountable is horrific, no matter the colour of their skin. But some people have a much bigger reason to fear it more than others, and that is because of the colour of their skin.

While I agree that sometimes the conversation gets skewed towards some issues to the detriment of others, for example how native Americans are seldom mentioned even though they also suffer much worse than the average white person from systemic injustice, the core of the problem remains the same. If the US police are defunded and reformed (in the true sense of the word, as in rebuilt from the ground up), everyone benefits. I don't see how the fact that black people (among others) will benefit more because they've been affected more by the injustice is in any way an argument against the idea.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 07:24:18 AM by Magnus Hedén »
You can find stories on my Patreon
I'm also on Twitter and the Book of Faces

Offline xiagan

  • Writing Contest Organizer
  • Powers That Be
  • Ringbearer
  • *
  • Posts: 6181
  • Total likes: 2745
  • Gender: Male
  • Master Procrastinator
    • View Profile
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3601 on: June 25, 2020, 08:35:53 PM »
I don't want to get into this discussion because I don't have the time and energy to do so.

Two points, though:
Statistics show very clear that blacks suffer significantly more from police violence in the US. I don't get why you try with so much effort to disprove a fact that's proven dozens of times over. You are neither American nor a police officer, so I don't understand why.

A career criminal who held a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach while his friends robbed her house. I suspect not.
This is alt-right propaganda. They either claim that Floyd and his killer were friends and his death was faked (for "deepstate reasons") or that he was such a bad guy that he deserved what he got.
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3602 on: June 26, 2020, 07:41:56 AM »
BLM stands for an end to capitalism an end to police powers an end to the nuclear family and really only cares about black lives when they are ended by whites because racial tension is their business. If this were not the case they would be talking about the horrific number of young black men killed by other black men every day in the USA.

So anyone care to talk about encounters with the police by race in America or the vastly disproportionate levels in violent crime within the black American population or would that be deemed racist?

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Rostum on June 25, 2020, 02:27:33 AM

    A career criminal who held a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach while his friends robbed her house. I suspect not.

This is alt-right propaganda. They either claim that Floyd and his killer were friends and his death was faked (for "deepstate reasons") or that he was such a bad guy that he deserved what he got.

Excuse me. Where his court records faked? Were his multiple prison records faked? The 5 years he was imprisoned for this offence I feel are factual. These are a matter of public record in the states, but I guess in the progressive world you can't question BLM or you are a racist.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 08:05:11 AM by Rostum »

Offline Magnus Hedén

  • High Lord of commas and Grand Master of semicolons
  • Ambient Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
  • Total likes: 324
  • Gender: Male
  • My name is Magnus. I make stuff up.
    • View Profile
    • My Patreon
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3603 on: June 26, 2020, 11:13:33 AM »
BLM stands for an end to capitalism an end to police powers an end to the nuclear family and really only cares about black lives when they are ended by whites because racial tension is their business.

Now you're going off the rails misrepresenting the BLM movement so that you can straw man it. Please read up on the movement on the purposes somewhere other than on alt-right blogs. If we're going to have a conversation, you need to approach it with a genuine interest in following the facts, wherever they may take you.

Quote
Excuse me. Where his court records faked? Were his multiple prison records faked? The 5 years he was imprisoned for this offence I feel are factual. These are a matter of public record in the states, but I guess in the progressive world you can't question BLM or you are a racist.

Yes, George Floyd was a criminal with a violent incident in his past, but his misdeeds have been exaggerated and strengthened with lies by people who also seem to believe that because he was a criminal (who had served his time, no less), he deserved to be strangled to death in the streets.

You can read more about his past and about the events leading up to his death in the Snopes report. He served 5 years in prison aggravated robbery, but the part about a pregnant woman is made up.

Quote
If this were not the case they would be talking about the horrific number of young black men killed by other black men every day in the USA.

So anyone care to talk about encounters with the police by race in America or the vastly disproportionate levels in violent crime within the black American population or would that be deemed racist?

As for black-on-black violence, yes, it's true that it's overrepresented in the statistics. There's a long history of contentious debate over that. Racist pundits use it as 'evidence' for homebrew theories of blacks being more violent.

I can't tell you the whole story, but what I do know is this:

1. Socioeconomic status and level of education are two of the biggest predictors of criminal behaviour (except for gender). The two are often tied together, particularly in the US where the quality of public schools is directly affected by the taxes brought in by the school district (so poorer districts get less funding for their schools), and where higher education costs a lot of money.

2. The economic divide between black and white people in the US is huge. White households have 10 times as much wealth as black households in the US. And it's not hard to see why, when after being emancipated from slavery, African Americans started out with virtually nothing in a country full of white people with more money and social status than them, many whom they had slaved themselves to death making very rich. Then the African Americans suffered through centuries of racial violence (including lynchings and outright massacres), discrimination, segregation, and systemic racism. While the letter of the law has changed, many of the problems remain and are deeply rooted in society and its systems.

3. Poverty begets poverty. Despite the idea of the American dream, people who are poor tend to stay poor, generation through generation, regardless of how hard they work. Yes, there are people who break out, but they are an exception. You can read more about it here.

Put those together, and you're on solid ground for explaining those statistics. On top of that, there's overwhelming evidence that police actions are racially biased, and that this actually ends up 'masking' the racism in police killings of black people. You can read more about that here. Statistics is an incredibly complex subject, and as such, conclusions based on them should not be made by those without ample experience of the subject.

But of course, even if you set aside all that and only see that blacks are overrepresented in violent crime in the US, you do understand that's not an excuse for cops to treat every single black person as a suspect, right? You understand that the justice system must treat people equally; provide evidence for the crime and allow them to stand a fair trial? Otherwise, that makes the cops judge, jury, and executioner (a phrase familiar from dystopian comic Judge Dredd).

People are protesting and calling for change because that's exactly what's happening; the police are killing people on the suspicion of a crime, and it disproportionately affects black people. The killings even involve people who have been innocent of crime like Atatiana Jefferson, Stephon Clarke, and Philando Castille (to name a few of the more high profile cases).

Yes, white people are also affected, but if anything that's a reason for us to support the current protests against police brutality, not go against it. BLM is a movement that rose up against police violence, and it focuses on black people because they're the ones most affected. But now I'm repeating myself, so please read my previous response. And herein lies the problem.

Rostum, you're very happy to make assumptions about BLM and 'progressives' and to assume that people are all part of some homogenous group who all think and act the same. You're also very good at putting words into their/our mouths, stating that "their narrative" is what you want it to be, or that such and such isn't allowed by 'progressives'. Yet in this thread, people are spending a lot of energy to have an open discussion with you (a fact that on its own disproves some of your statements). But you continuously answer with more wild assumptions and baseless statements or alt-right talking points.

It appears to me you don't really read any messages that question your statements, but just roll in with new claims. This has happened before as well. I urge that you read what people are saying and look into it. Be willing to look at things from a different angle than the one you're being served by whatever sources you get your information from (information that in many cases have been proven incorrect). Be willing to question the motives of those who provide your sources of information. And be willing to be open to new information, even if it goes against your current beliefs and knowledge.

I'm here and I'm willing to listen to reasoned arguments and examine the evidence. I've changed my mind about fundamental issues many times in the past, and I have no doubt I will again in the future. It's difficult every time because we're pre-programmed to stick to our guns no matter what. It's easier to simply believe we know how the world works. But it's also foolish to believe we have nothing to learn.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 11:22:57 AM by Magnus Hedén »
You can find stories on my Patreon
I'm also on Twitter and the Book of Faces

Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3604 on: June 26, 2020, 12:32:30 PM »

People are protesting and calling for change because that's exactly what's happening; the police are killing people on the suspicion of a crime, and it disproportionately affects black people. The killings even involve people who have been innocent of crime like Atatiana Jefferson, Stephon Clarke, and Philando Castille (to name a few of the more high profile cases).

Yes, white people are also affected, but if anything that's a reason for us to support the current protests against police brutality, not go against it. BLM is a movement that rose up against police violence, and it focuses on black people because they're the ones most affected. But now I'm repeating myself, so please read my previous response. And herein lies the problem.


Kinda tagging on -

The fact that black people see these incidents as part of a pattern of systematic bias against them, while when it happens to white people it's usually seen as isolated bad apple cases and not something that is part of bias against them that needs correcting, tells a tale of it's own.
This is the blog of Peat - http://peatlong.blogspot.co.uk/

Offline hexa


Offline Skip

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3606 on: June 27, 2020, 02:54:46 AM »
>As for black-on-black violence, yes, it's true that it's overrepresented in the statistics. There's a long history of contentious debate over that

If there's ongoing debate it's only because certain parties persist in misunderstanding the issue. Franz Fanon (in his book The Wretched of the Earth) spoke to this something like seventy years ago and his observations remain true. I hope recent events mark a turning point, but I'm skeptical.
Visit Altearth

Offline Magnus Hedén

  • High Lord of commas and Grand Master of semicolons
  • Ambient Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
  • Total likes: 324
  • Gender: Male
  • My name is Magnus. I make stuff up.
    • View Profile
    • My Patreon
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3607 on: June 27, 2020, 08:04:02 AM »
I hope recent events mark a turning point, but I'm skeptical.

I don't think we'll see the sweeping, overnight systemic changes that people might be dreaming of. But I do think it will bring positive change in the long run.
You can find stories on my Patreon
I'm also on Twitter and the Book of Faces

Offline NedMarcus

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3608 on: June 27, 2020, 02:09:00 PM »
BLM stands for an end to capitalism an end to police powers an end to the nuclear family and really only cares about black lives when they are ended by whites because racial tension is their business.

Now you're going off the rails misrepresenting the BLM movement so that you can straw man it. Please read up on the movement on the purposes somewhere other than on alt-right blogs. If we're going to have a conversation, you need to approach it with a genuine interest in following the facts, wherever they may take you.

Although I don't know where BLM stands on the family, I do know that BLM (the organization) is a political organization and stands for dismantling capitalism. Here's an extract from their UK fund raising page.

We’re guided by a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world. We build deep relationships across the diaspora and strategise to challenge the rise of the authoritarian right-wing across the world, from Brazil to Britain.


The link is here https://uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

Offline Rostum

« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 07:46:15 AM by Rostum »

Offline Magnus Hedén

  • High Lord of commas and Grand Master of semicolons
  • Ambient Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
  • Total likes: 324
  • Gender: Male
  • My name is Magnus. I make stuff up.
    • View Profile
    • My Patreon
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3610 on: June 29, 2020, 08:58:58 AM »
@Rostum

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

Thanks for the link. So reading that, it seems the only thing you got remotely right was their resistance to the idea of a nuclear family, though there's nothing there about wanting to outright end it.

Quote
We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.
(My emphases.)

BLM stands for an end to capitalism

It doesn't say anything about that.

BLM stands for ... an end to police powers

It doesn't say anything about that.

BLM ... really only cares about black lives when they are ended by whites because racial tension is their business.

This is the most outrageous claim. Again, see my above response about black-on-black violence. But also:

Quote
We acknowledge, respect, and celebrate differences and commonalities.

We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people.

And:

Quote
To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.
You can find stories on my Patreon
I'm also on Twitter and the Book of Faces

Offline cupiscent

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3611 on: June 29, 2020, 12:31:33 PM »
I love the BLM statements on family and community, actually, those sound magnificent. In a similar vein, I am increasingly all in favour of ending capitalism. Especially in the US, where I hear Bezos is going to be a trillionaire all too soon, but my university-educated friend, working in a job that required that degree, with his wife also working, qualified for food stamps and was advised to get a second job. Capitalism is broken, it will eat its own tail in the foreseeable future, so we best start thinking about its end.

Offline Magnus Hedén

  • High Lord of commas and Grand Master of semicolons
  • Ambient Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 400
  • Total likes: 324
  • Gender: Male
  • My name is Magnus. I make stuff up.
    • View Profile
    • My Patreon
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3612 on: June 29, 2020, 02:25:08 PM »
I don't think ending capitalism is the solution; it's responsible for a lot more of the social progress in the world than some people want to give it credit for. I think part of the problem is how we prefer to think of package solutions found on one side of a binary spectrum; we either have to be full-on socialist or we have to have a completely unregulated free market -- but a better answer is going to be a lot more nuanced and lie somewhere in between the two extremes (or possibly outside of that spectrum, at least in part).

Capitalism, as envisioned by Adam Smith, was intended to create wealth for everyone, not just a fortunate few. But take any system and give people free reign and they'll find ways to profit from it at other people's expense. There will always be new problems and new loopholes to exploit, so any well-functioning system needs to have built-in error correction. That's where democracy can step in and regulate so that everyone gets a share. I'm not talking about complete economic equality; I don't think a system where everyone gets the same is realistic on a global scale. Egalitarian societies tend run into problems as soon as they grow beyond the size of a hunter-gatherer tribe (around 150 people, a number that we're actually genetically hard-coded with), and egalitarian cultures do not tend to survive long term once they encounter the non-egalitarian kind.

Our problems now are global, whether we like it or not, so the solutions must be global -- which is why the rise of nationalist movements everywhere is a big problem. We don't have time for these childish bouts of "America/UK/Sweden/etc. First" because the problems we have to deal with in the coming decades and centuries are of the type where we all win or we all lose.
You can find stories on my Patreon
I'm also on Twitter and the Book of Faces

Offline hexa

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3613 on: June 29, 2020, 06:44:07 PM »

Offline Caith

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3614 on: June 29, 2020, 09:31:07 PM »
I agree with Magnus on this, if you end capitalism then what do you replace it with?

 And capitalism, again as Magnus points out, is a broad spectrum of economic approaches. In the west in particular, the neo-liberal ideology of the Chicago School of Economics has held sway for some forty years and is now so entrenched that it is touted as 'economic common sense' and the 'only' viable approach.

Early in the lockdown, I was of the pessimistic mind that once the pandemic passed, it would be back to business as usual, same as after the 2008 financial crash. However, more recent events have made me more optimistic that we are entering a period of change.

 In the past few days, the UK government, by announcing a 'Rooseveltian' recovery plan, has thrown one of the main tennents of the neo-liberal dogma out the window, namely that the government should leave everything to the market to resolve.

Whether their rich supporters will allow any reversal of the other main areas neoliberal orthodoxy, de-regulation and privatisation, remains to be seen, and the UK government doesn't have a great record on delivering its promises but we'll see.

I continue to think that the broad support for the Black Lives Matter movement may be an overt expression of the discontent that many people feel about how unequal our socieites have become because of the neo-liberal approach to economics and government policy.