July 11, 2020, 07:57:22 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 337686 times)

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3585 on: June 21, 2020, 02:07:23 AM »
So in the UK a Libyan National (A country that has slave markets since the Arab Spring) has murdered three people and wounded up to 10 others. He was rugby tackled by an unarmed police officer and detained. I have no doubt he would have been shot dead in America, maybe rightly so.

THE BLM narrative in the UK has been police are all the same, everywhere. I continue to find this dishonest.

Offline cupiscent

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3586 on: June 21, 2020, 04:17:21 AM »
THE BLM narrative in the UK has been police are all the same, everywhere. I continue to find this dishonest.
I probably wouldn't phrase it like that. I might say "All police, everywhere, should be closely monitored to ensure the fair dispensation of justice." Which barely scratches the surface of the US problems, but remains a concern through the world, and especially in the Commonwealth.

Here in Australia, I believe police have to undergo a thorough investigation every time a weapon is discharged, let alone anyone wounded or killed. But "black deaths in custody" remains a very contentious issue here--and rightly so. A key part of that question is the extent to which people die in custody who would not even have been arrested if they were white. A recent case involved a woman travelling to visit family who got drunk on the train, had an altercation with police, was arrested and restrained, and died in her cell. I cannot count the number of drunk white people I've seen on trains. I cannot count the number of times my husband has steered overintoxicated white friends through interactions with police. No one gets arrested. No one dies.

Offline Rostum


Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3588 on: June 21, 2020, 06:46:34 PM »

I probably wouldn't phrase it like that. I might say "All police, everywhere, should be closely monitored to ensure the fair dispensation of justice."

Just to be sure I understand what you're saying - you wouldn't phrase what needs to happen like that, or you wouldn't phrase the narrative coming out of BLM as that?
This is the blog of Peat - http://peatlong.blogspot.co.uk/

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3589 on: June 21, 2020, 09:09:59 PM »
I was going to let it slide but the job of the police is to uphold the law and has nothing to do with justice for very good reasons.

In the UK the police arrest for public safety or hand out warnings in various forms Or gather evidence to pass to the CPS. The CPS determine if the evidence presented meets the standard to allow prosecution and a court is convened to carry out that prosecution before a jury of their peers.

I agree the police should be held to the same standard of the law as everyone else and should not be allowed to investigate themselves, but certainly should not be judged by social media or any organisation which is hostile towards them.   

And on a slightly divergent path Ayishat is a compelling and thoughtful speaker and worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuAd_IAkOl4
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 09:22:45 PM by Rostum »

Offline cupiscent

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3590 on: June 21, 2020, 11:25:20 PM »

I probably wouldn't phrase it like that. I might say "All police, everywhere, should be closely monitored to ensure the fair dispensation of justice."

Just to be sure I understand what you're saying - you wouldn't phrase what needs to happen like that, or you wouldn't phrase the narrative coming out of BLM as that?

I couldn't comment on what messaging is coming out of BLM in any country, I haven't really engaged with it. I would phrase what I think needs to happen like that. I don't think overblown rhetoric negates the very real issues.

I was going to let it slide but the job of the police is to uphold the law and has nothing to do with justice for very good reasons.
Not directly. But when the police decide who does and doesn't get arrested - thereby coming before the justice system - they are participating in injustice when they uphold the law unevenly.

But I'm happy to rephrase my statement as: "All police, everywhere, should be closely monitored to ensure the law is upheld fairly."

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3591 on: June 21, 2020, 11:48:24 PM »
Hardly contentious. Everyone should agree the law is applied evenly and fairly without favour or fault and due process is evident. If you think there should be exceptions look at countries where there are and decide if you want to live in them.

I don't see that as the case anywhere in the first world. I have first-hand experience of it not being the case in Eastern Europe.

And before America is brought up please provide a single shred of evidence that is not the case if you can? Not the feeling of, or out of context video clips on Facebook, but actual evidence.

Most of the shootings I have watched flair up from nothing and actually complying with the police instead of escalating would prevent that ever happening. People lose their lives over a $40 traffic violation and that is due in part to the relationship America has with guns.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 12:33:27 AM by Rostum »

Offline cupiscent

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3592 on: June 22, 2020, 01:55:28 AM »
And before America is brought up please provide a single shred of evidence that is not the case if you can? Not the feeling of, or out of context video clips on Facebook, but actual evidence.

Most of the shootings I have watched flair up from nothing and actually complying with the police instead of escalating would prevent that ever happening. People lose their lives over a $40 traffic violation and that is due in part to the relationship America has with guns.

...are you kidding? When we literally just saw George Floyd killed in the street while being arrested for allegedly passing a fake twenty dollar bill? A "crime" which I have seen at least four white guys claim they've committed in the United States and not even had the police called, let alone been arrested for. I'm not sure where to start with a litany of white serial killers and active shooters who get arrested uninjured, with white kids who get warnings on petty crimes that black youth gets imprisoned for, or black women who get pulled over by police for being in a car with their white partners and asked to prove they aren't prostitutes.

Not to mention cases like Philando Castile, who was shot for literally obeying the law and complying with police, while having a gun he was allowed to be carrying under law. Yes, the police officer who shot him got jail time for that. That does not bring back the man, nor does it do anything for the trauma of his four year old daughter who was in the car at the time.

But it's not my job to educate you. Do your own homework.

If the law were being upheld fairly by police forces in the United States, they shouldn't have a problem with significantly increased oversight because there's nothing to hide. That's how it goes, right? If you've done nothing wrong, you  have nothing to fear.

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3593 on: June 22, 2020, 07:41:25 AM »
No I am not kidding you, and I am unhappy with where you have gone.
Has any evidence been released to suggest this was a racially motivated killing? I guess if the police were not black they were white, right?

I guess your response was emotional and ill-informed as I know you to be a thoughtful and eloquent writer with empathy and compassion but your assumption is racist. If four black officers killed a white man in handcuffs I doubt you would have gone there but if four 'white' (you might want to look that up) officers kill a black man it must be racist.

What should the police have done when called, not responded when the description was of a stoned black man? Are you suggesting if Floyd was white they wouldn't have responded?

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I'm not sure where to start with a litany of white serial killers and active shooters who get arrested uninjured, with white kids who get warnings on petty crimes that black youth gets imprisoned for, or black women who get pulled over by police for being in a car with their white partners and asked to prove they aren't prostitutes.

Yeah, please go there if you feel it's relevant.

Philandro Castile was shot by Jeronimo Yanez (I guess he is white as well if we are playing the race game)and  went to prison for it. What more do you want a lynching? Nobody white or black comes back from being killed, your point is?

Sadly I took it on myself to try to understand why America kills so many of its own I would suggest you educate yourself and not look for outrage on social media because you will find it but little context and plenty of bias.

Quote
If the law were being upheld fairly by police forces in the United States, they shouldn't have a problem with significantly increased oversight because there's nothing to hide. That's how it goes, right? If you've done nothing wrong, you  have nothing to fear.

OK Got curtains up in your house? Tell people your credit card number? Everyone has something to hide now please provide evidence that the law is not applied fairly?

Not that I think you will watch it but here is Candace Owens video that got her called lots of nasty racist things by the Left who have decided she doesn't think right and needs cancelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fij8TP0FE00


Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3594 on: June 22, 2020, 09:36:35 AM »
Wiki gives the rate of death by police shooting at 4.66 per million for the US - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country

This site gives the rate of death by police shooting for black ethnicity at 30 per million for the US -
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Even if each and every killing was legal, there'd still be a huge disparity in how the police used their power depending on the colour of their skin. Occam's razor suggests a huge problem with unchecked institutional racism and that for the majority of these killings, even if the killing was not directly a case of racism, it was fed by the institutional prejudice that causes them to clearly behave very differently with people depending on skin colour. It's a killing coming direct from an issue with race.

@ cupiscent - I figured, but wanted to see.

Offline cupiscent

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3595 on: June 22, 2020, 09:53:35 AM »
I guess if the police were not black they were white, right?
I certainly didn't say that. Though the intersectionality of race and police-force is another fascinating area.

If four black officers killed a white man in handcuffs I doubt you would have gone there but if four 'white' (you might want to look that up) officers kill a black man it must be racist.
If four black people killed a white man in handcuffs on video in America do you really think it would have taken a week of protest to get all four of them brought up on charges?

What should the police have done when called, not responded when the description was of a stoned black man? Are you suggesting if Floyd was white they wouldn't have responded?
I'm suggesting that if Floyd were white, their response would have been vastly different.

Five minutes on google gets me a paper on racial inequality in traffic stops, discretionary searches and corresponding arrest data.

Quote
Results show that despite being subject to higher rates of discretionary and nondiscretionary searches, Black drivers were less likely to be found with contraband than matched Whites and were more than twice as likely to be subjected to a field interview where no citation is issued or arrest made. Black drivers were also more likely to face any type of search, as well as high-discretion consent searches, that end in neither citation nor arrest.
Coincidentally, this paper was quoted in another paper talking about how the overwhelming data on racial inequalities in America (policing and otherwise) doesn't seem to actually convince people that change is necessary.

Not that I think you will watch it but here is Candace Owens video that got her called lots of nasty racist things by the Left who have decided she doesn't think right and needs cancelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fij8TP0FE00
I'm afraid I quite literally don't have time to watch a 17 minute video - is there a transcript anywhere? Or could you summarise?


ETA: Since I have had unexpected internet-surfing time during the evening - while policing my small-person, amusingly enough - some more links:
All I did to get these is google "black racial policing". These were all on the first page of hits. (I used a slightly different search term for my earlier material, I think I used the term "arrest" in there as well.)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 01:16:12 PM by cupiscent »

Offline Skip

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3596 on: June 22, 2020, 04:25:55 PM »
I was listening to one of my favorite tracks yesterday, Inner City Blues by Marvin Gaye. This line jumped out at me:
crime is increasing
trigger happy policemen

That was 1970.

The issue of corrupt police goes back over a century, pretty much from the creation of police forces in the USA (I can't speak to other police forces, except for Venice in the Renaissance, which I'm pretty sure isn't relevant).

This is what we mean when we talk about a systemic problem. It's not about the individual officers or even whole departments. It's what is embedded in the structure itself. And if the problems lead to a disproportionate number of deaths, if the problems lead to excessive use of force, then it is legitimate to talk about reform or even dismantling and restructuring that system. Pointing to individual cases, whether they be reprehensible or virtuous, actually takes focus away from where it should be.

It's not that we don't want policemen. It's not that we don't want policemen to have guns. It's that we don't want
trigger happy policemen

Nobody does. The question is, will piecemeal, internal reforms improve the situation? The answer, verified by over a century of efforts, is no. Therefore, let us try something new.

Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3597 on: June 24, 2020, 07:07:05 AM »
Well Atlanta is about to find out how it gets on without its police force. Nothing official yet but it looks like over 70% of precincts have walked after the DA's press conference and announcement that he will be prosecuting both officers involved for a combined13 felonies in regard to the Rayshard Brooks shooting.

The Georgia Bureau of Investigation who investigate police shootings who have an ongoing investigation were unaware of this and say they will continue their investigation and provide the DA with their conclusions upon which the DA is supposed to make his case if appropriate.

FWITW the situation is horrible, but the shooting looks legal under American law.

@The Gem Cutter I was doubtful of your assessment 6 months ago now I am not sure it goes far enough.

I am most worried about the convergence of the resurgence of the virus and the election. I believe much of the magnitude of the reaction to pre-existing (but terrible) societal problems (healthcare, racism, corruption, etc.) comes from worry and (technically) unrelated stressors (employment, isolation, etc., etc.). This isn't a punch or even a one-two-punch, it's a Mike Tyson 8-punch combination, that seems to just keep on coming. Prices are rising for food; healthcare (and now law enforcement) are stressed; jobs are insecure among those who have them; those who do not have shrinking opportunities; the list goes on.

I believe violence will get more organized, diverse, and widespread. My stockpiles grow and my home is becoming more and more fortress-like. My mountain of food, weapons, ammo, and other gear, which my wife once criticized, has become a badge of honor at home. She's thanked me and apologized for the flak she gave me about it and my guns. And she hates guns.
The Gem Cutter
"Each time, there is the same problem: do I dare? And then if you do dare, the dangers are there, and the help also, and the fulfillment or the fiasco. There's always the possibility of a fiasco. But there's also the possibility of bliss." - Joseph Campbell

Offline hexa

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3598 on: June 24, 2020, 07:29:11 PM »
The Netherlands indicts the president of Kosovo for war crimes

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53169808

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3599 on: June 25, 2020, 02:27:33 AM »
Tony Timpa, a white man was killed by Texas police in 2016 by being restrained and having a knee placed in his back after being cuffed. Officers are laughing and joking as they kill him. Eventually they were charged with assault a payout was made and all charges dropped and the officers who even say on video 'hey have we killed him, wake up Tony'. No Justice and no riots.

Joseph Hutchinson, before that was restrained and died 'in part' due to a knee in the back and knee preventing him from breathing. No Riots, his death was ruled homicide. A grand jury declined to charge four officers. Again he was White.

George Floyd may not have died if perhaps lessons were actually learnt.

The Narrative is a racist killing by racist cops. I don't know if there was a racial element in his killing but I doubt it. In all three cases incompetence is more likely.

I am very curious to know if the massive amount of white support would be there if Floyd had been white? A career criminal who held a gun to a pregnant woman's stomach while his friends robbed her house. I suspect not.

Quote
I am most worried about the convergence of the resurgence of the virus and the election. I believe much of the magnitude of the reaction to pre-existing (but terrible) societal problems (healthcare, racism, corruption, etc.) comes from worry and (technically) unrelated stressors (employment, isolation, etc., etc.). This isn't a punch or even a one-two-punch, it's a Mike Tyson 8-punch combination, that seems to just keep on coming. Prices are rising for food; healthcare (and now law enforcement) are stressed; jobs are insecure among those who have them; those who do not have shrinking opportunities; the list goes on.

My thoughts are it's the Democrats who are being come for. The sympathy and support towards the BLM/ATIFA/Occupy movements is being cynically played upon to either subvert the party further in line with their aims or to discredit them with voters and then subvert the party further in line with their aims after they are destroyed in the election. As they appear to have an untenable contender (again) who will allow a few really powerful people to make off with the campaign funds in consultancy fees a show of being opposition must be made I suppose.

The CHAZ/CHAD zones and their like are all in Democratic areas and have turned in a nightmare of drug fuelled crime and violence. What I think will really resonate with the country though is the segregation occurring in these areas is that what you really want to go back to as a Nation? Is that something any political party could support?

Quote
I believe violence will get more organized, diverse, and widespread. My stockpiles grow and my home is becoming more and more fortress-like. My mountain of food, weapons, ammo, and other gear, which my wife once criticized, has become a badge of honor at home. She's thanked me and apologized for the flak she gave me about it and my guns. And she hates guns.

Don't forget planning and preparation get you so far but having a community stand behind you is key to surviving the mob. And if all else fails Plan B always involves showing them a clean pair of heels as direct confrontation can only be got away with once and in the direst of circumstance.


Posted by: hexa
« on: June 24, 2020, 07:29:11 PM »

    Insert Quote


The Netherlands indicts the president of Kosovo for war crimes

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53169808

Yup I saw that. I have argued here (maybe earlier in this thread) and elsewhere that the UN was conned into going into Kosovo through largely bogus claims of ethnic cleansing and in part through their desire to end Miloservic, who really needed to get got for the atrocities he had committed elsewhere. The end result was of the 28,000 ethnic Serbs less than 800 still live in Kosovo. Many of those are bed ridden and the very old.
Handing over the city state to its criminal element really wasn't our finest hour. Even today when there are arrests for sex trafficking in the UK involving European girls there is a disproportionately large chance that a Kosovan has been arrested.