April 08, 2020, 06:15:44 PM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 315921 times)

Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3435 on: January 05, 2020, 12:10:09 PM »
The problem here is apathy about our use of military power and the mostly unrestrained power of the presidency to order action. On a related note, I wish the media would call the attack on this general what it is: an assassination.

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Offline Bender

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3436 on: January 05, 2020, 03:59:51 PM »
I doubt this would get to war, but Trump is playing a dangerous game. Using war as a excuse for brownie points with the voter base and being provocative on twitter is double edged sword.

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Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3437 on: January 05, 2020, 05:30:59 PM »
I think America is prepared to go to war (again) to maintain a growing presence in the Middle East, but is more likely to co opt a state to provide them further bases in the interests of stability in the region.
They think they're prepared to go to war in Iran. They are not.
Iran won't be Iraq2.0, as many believe.
Iran has 80 Mio. Inhabitants, the same amount as Germany with four times the area (which is as hospitable as Mordor mostly) and Teheran is bigger than NYC. This will be Vietnam2.0 only worse for all parties involved (and likely that means the whole world).
This war must not happen.

Not only that, but the country is very mountainous. Mountains are very easy for guerrilla forces to defend. And regardless of how unpopular the government may or may not be, even the most liberal and secular minded Iranians would probably resent American occupation immensely.

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3438 on: January 05, 2020, 09:17:13 PM »
The problem here is apathy about our use of military power and the mostly unrestrained power of the presidency to order action. On a related note, I wish the media would call the attack on this general what it is: an assassination.
They now do. After we learned that the Trump admin asked Iraq to mediate between Iran and the US and that thhat was the reason Souleimani was there.

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Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3439 on: January 06, 2020, 11:37:26 AM »
They way that Trump in particular, but every American president since Bush, has treated Iraq really gets under my skin. When Trump last went to Iraq, he showed up unannounced, addressed some American troops stationed there and then left. He didn't speak to the Prime Minister or Foreign Minister or anything. Iraq is a sovereign, independent country, and the American government and media treat it like its a big military base.

Even when people in American media are critical of the American government, they focus on how the invasion and occupation impacted Americans and the effect it had on the lives of Iraqis is never brought up. Hardly anyone mentions the support the US gave Saddam Hussein that kept him in power for years, or Henry Kissinger encouraging the Iraqi people to rise up after the first Gulf War, only to stand aside and let Saddam slaughter them.

So I was very pleased to hear about the vote in the Iraqi parliament. Hopefully this will remind Trump's minders that they shouldn't let their pet take America's allies for granted.

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3440 on: January 08, 2020, 01:40:25 PM »
Well it takes a remarkable amount of precision not to kill anyone with 22 missiles. lets hope that is the end of it for the moment.

Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3441 on: January 08, 2020, 08:18:27 PM »
I heard they told the Iraqis which bases they were aiming for and the Iraqis told the Americans so they had time to make sure no one got hit. They weren't aiming to kill anyone, just to show Trump that they can hit the bases if they want to.

That should be the end of it. I do think Trump genuinely does want to avoid war if he can, it's just that he struggles to, because he has no clear strategy, or indeed, any idea what he is doing.

Offline Bender

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3442 on: January 08, 2020, 08:26:11 PM »
I do think Trump genuinely does want to avoid war if he can, it's just that he struggles to, because he has no clear strategy, or indeed, any idea what he is doing.

Personally, I think lots of people don't give him enough credit. He's a very street smart person. He knows threat of war and posturing would get him the redneck votes...but an actual war (esp when soldiers get killed) would go against him. He's playing on knife's edge and it seems to be working well.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3443 on: January 08, 2020, 08:30:15 PM »
Quote
I heard they told the Iraqis which bases they were aiming for and the Iraqis told the Americans so they had time to make sure no one got hit. They weren't aiming to kill anyone, just to show Trump that they can hit the bases if they want to.

That would be my assessment. Iran needs to save face at home + test a ballistic missile system but had no wish to escalate. I think they will step up attacks through proxies and look for closer ties with Iraq to cut out American involvement.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 08:32:10 PM by Rostum »

Offline isos81

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3444 on: January 09, 2020, 07:16:44 AM »
Trump is certainly not an idiot as claimed by many. He just have different motivations (imo).
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'Yes' said Caladan Brood. 'You never learn'

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3445 on: January 09, 2020, 12:55:44 PM »
By the time an American president gets elected he has done so many deals he has no motivations of his own. Backers must be paid back and deals honoured everything left is largely ego. If not an idiot unable to see anything except his own narrow view,

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Offline Aldarion

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3446 on: January 09, 2020, 07:05:50 PM »
The problem here is apathy about our use of military power and the mostly unrestrained power of the presidency to order action. On a related note, I wish the media would call the attack on this general what it is: an assassination.

Eh, US had been carrying out assassinations since forever - including assassinations of other statesmen. I believe it was Obama who started unrestricted drone warfare, though he never - to my knowledge - targeted high officials of a legitimate government. EDIT: Not with drones, anyway.

Offline Matthew

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3447 on: January 09, 2020, 09:21:52 PM »
It's how countries have always been run. We spy on our allies and kill anyone who poses a threat. I really don't understand the surprise that people declare when this stuff happens. It always happens. Over and over.

Like someone else mentioned, the US kept Hussein in power (hell, they put him there and gave him chemical weapons). They trained and armed Al Qaeda against the Soviets. They've also spent the last 20 years dismantling Iranian friendly nations in the area, leaving them essentially alone in any conflict.

Iran AIR QUOTES on the other hand END QUOTES worked to keep the Syrian government intact during their civil war. They have a special military force formerly headed by the assassinated general that actively arms and sponsors terrorism across the globe. They've also declared outright that they won't rest until Israel is wiped from the map.

This is how the world works. This is how it will always work. We don't live in Gene Roddenberry's head. Resources are finite. Wealth and prosperity belong to the people who can pry it from the cold dead hands of others. Is that morally right? no, of course not, but the alternative is the 'civilised' world taking a huge step backwards in our quality of life. This is why we will never stop our governments from waging wars.

South Park said it best "You people who are for the war, you need the protesters. Because they make the country look like it's made of sane, caring individuals. And you people who are anti-war, you need these flag-wavers, because, if our whole country was made up of nothing but soft pussy protesters, we'd get taken down in a second. That's why the founding fathers decided we should have both. It's called 'having your cake and eating it too.'"

Offline Bender

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3448 on: January 09, 2020, 09:40:02 PM »
Is that morally right? no, of course not, but the alternative is the 'civilised' world taking a huge step backwards in our quality of life. This is why we will never stop our governments from waging wars.

It's just be curtailing of excess. Lots of people live over and above their means and somehow luxury has become the definition for quality of life. In case of many rich people, it can alternatively be termed as gluttony as they necessity for more and more is never ending with no consequence being paid for humane or environmental concerns.

We certainly can have a good quality of life without the greed that comes with capitalism.
"I shall hunt your firstborn children and laugh with glee as I tell them of your death in terrible detail, with many unpleasant adjectives!" - M-Bot

"Who needs science when you have a dragon?" - Neil DeGrasse Tyson in Sharknado 6

Offline Matthew

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3449 on: January 10, 2020, 12:46:17 AM »
Is that morally right? no, of course not, but the alternative is the 'civilised' world taking a huge step backwards in our quality of life. This is why we will never stop our governments from waging wars.

It's just be curtailing of excess. Lots of people live over and above their means and somehow luxury has become the definition for quality of life. In case of many rich people, it can alternatively be termed as gluttony as they necessity for more and more is never ending with no consequence being paid for humane or environmental concerns.

We certainly can have a good quality of life without the greed that comes with capitalism.

Even those suffering from a state of near poverty in the developed world would see their quality of life decrease if the world population lived equally, just think about how many people in say India there is compared to whichever country you live in (I'm just assuming it's not China).

But I do agree that we use too much, desire too much, lead lives of pointless excess. Nonetheless, it's an impossible sell to the vast majority of people. It's why nobody actually stops capitalism running amok, or even appears to try.

It is the way it is. The human race is wired for greed and selfishness.