January 27, 2020, 10:14:20 PM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 301747 times)

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3390 on: December 12, 2019, 12:23:06 AM »
Yeah Democracy in the Uk has become voting for the party that will do least harm.

I have probably posted this before but it's still great.

 “It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"
"What?"
"I said," said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, "have you got any gin?"
"I'll look. Tell me about the lizards."
Ford shrugged again.
"Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happenned to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."
"But that's terrible," said Arthur.
"Listen, bud," said Ford, "if I had one Altairian dollar for every time I heard one bit of the Universe look at another bit of the Universe and say 'That's terrible' I wouldn't be sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.”

? Douglas Adams, So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

Offline Magnus Hedén

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3391 on: December 12, 2019, 06:38:46 AM »
I don't think this will go down well, but I'm not going to be voting. I hate both the Conservatives and Labour, and I don't like the small parties very much either. Not that a vote for them would do anything under First Past the Post.

The country's going to crash and burn regardless of who wins, and if I don't vote I at least won't be morally responsible for any of it.

So your country is going to shit and your reaction is to attempt to void yourself of responsibility? Well I'm sorry, but you can't. Not voting is also a choice that affects what happens with your country, like it or not. There's no hiding in a hole and saying "this wasn't my fault."

And if you stay at home because you're disillusioned, the likes of Boris Johnson will win. And then you'll be properly fucked. Stop thinking of politicians and political parties as someone you have to like. It's always going to be about choosing between options that don't suit you in order to keep the even worse ones away from power.
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Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3392 on: December 12, 2019, 07:50:09 AM »
I don't think this will go down well, but I'm not going to be voting. I hate both the Conservatives and Labour, and I don't like the small parties very much either. Not that a vote for them would do anything under First Past the Post.

The country's going to crash and burn regardless of who wins, and if I don't vote I at least won't be morally responsible for any of it.

So your country is going to shit and your reaction is to attempt to void yourself of responsibility? Well I'm sorry, but you can't. Not voting is also a choice that affects what happens with your country, like it or not. There's no hiding in a hole and saying "this wasn't my fault."

And if you stay at home because you're disillusioned, the likes of Boris Johnson will win. And then you'll be properly fucked. Stop thinking of politicians and political parties as someone you have to like. It's always going to be about choosing between options that don't suit you in order to keep the even worse ones away from power.
This, a million times over!

I live here, I've lived here for over 12 years. I pay taxes, a lot of them. I have ZERO say in what happens. I vote in every single local council election, as it's the only one I'm allowed.
Please vote, you *have* to be responsible!

And Rostum, I love that passage, it should be given out in leaflets all across the country!
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Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3393 on: December 12, 2019, 08:52:11 AM »
I'm terrible at keeping up with Icelandic politics, simply out of disillusionment. But my father once said to me: "If you're lucky enough to live in a democracy, you have a duty to drag yourself to a voting station on those rare occasions." And so I do, voting for whoever seems most likely to work against the rich assholes that dominate our political landscape.
It's also a bit of an Icelandic custom to, if you really don't like any of the candidates, to show up anyway and turn in an empty ballot as a form of protest. Those do get counted and announced.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3394 on: December 12, 2019, 10:50:22 AM »
Quote
I don't think this will go down well, but I'm not going to be voting. I hate both the Conservatives and Labour, and I don't like the small parties very much either. Not that a vote for them would do anything under First Past the Post.

The country's going to crash and burn regardless of who wins, and if I don't vote I at least won't be morally responsible for any of it.

And morally you have no right to complain when it happens if you choose not to participate. Spoil yourr ballot by writing none of the above on it. It may not effect the result but at least you participate. I would encourage everyone to exercise their right to vote. You have the right and duty to do so even if you choose to spoil it.



Quote
I live here, I've lived here for over 12 years. I pay taxes, a lot of them. I have ZERO say in what happens. I vote in every single local council election, as it's the only one I'm allowed.
Please vote, you *have* to be responsible!

As you have property here and intend to spend your future here why not apply for citizenship? when it looked like I would be working full time in Denmark or more recently Hungary residency then citizenship were in my planning.


Offline isos81

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3395 on: December 12, 2019, 10:54:30 AM »
I once read something like, "Voting is partnership in crime".

And this: "Why vote when the candidates are all serving to the same purpose".

What do you think about these?

Ps: I've always voted
Kallor shrugged. 'I've walked this land when the T'lan Imass were but children. I've commanded armies a hundred thousand strong. I've spread the fire of my wrath across entire continents, and sat alone upon tall thrones. Do you grasp the meaning of this?'

'Yes' said Caladan Brood. 'You never learn'

Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3396 on: December 12, 2019, 11:14:49 AM »
As you have property here and intend to spend your future here why not apply for citizenship? when it looked like I would be working full time in Denmark or more recently Hungary residency then citizenship were in my planning.
Oh I was considering it, but now I'm waiting to see what happens.
It's quite an investment (at least £2000), and apart from the voting, at the moment the rights and duties are the same.

My sister became a citizen this year, she says it was quite a complex process.


I once read something like, "Voting is partnership in crime".

And this: "Why vote when the candidates are all serving to the same purpose".

What do you think about these?
About the first one, I disagree: voting is the only way to make your voice heard in the society we live in, by selecting the parties with the policies that are more aligned with what we believe how it should be run.
We'll never like everyone, but we're not voting for leaders and charisma, we're voting for policies and actions.
As much as I'm disillusioned about it at the moment, I have to believe that.

As for the second sentence, that's far too general and therefore wrong. I assume that by 'same purpose' it's refering to their own interests rather than 'society's purpose'.
You have to work within the system if you ever want to make changes.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 11:18:18 AM by ScarletBea »
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Online Eclipse

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3397 on: December 12, 2019, 11:43:41 AM »
I’ve voted

Quite a busy poll station, there might be a youthquake in this election.

I had the

Con
Lab
Lib
Green

Three independents

To pick from.

I don’t like first past the post system.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 11:53:11 AM by Eclipse »
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Online Yora

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3398 on: December 12, 2019, 12:26:54 PM »
It's stupid. I think it's probably the worst possible system.

When you absolutely have to have a winner takes it all system, at least have a second voting round between the top two candidates for the post when neither gets over 50%.

Of course I am biased, but I think the German system is best. New Zealand basically copied it. And apparently Scotland and Wales used something similar for their regional parliaments.

We elect one MP for our electoral district, and then we also separately vote for the total assignment of seats to all parties. First all the MPs who won an electoral district get their seats, and then the remaining seats are allocated to the parties so that every party gets MPs proportional to the popular vote.
It's really easy, lets people chose who represents their district, and assigns MPs according to the popular vote. Not only does it prevent unified extremist blocks to take power against democratic politicians who are split over multiple parties. It also is much better at letting the people chose who will be the MP for their district. From what I hear, in the UK it is common to put important party members up as candidates for easy to win districts to make sure they get a seat, regardless of whether they have any connections to that district. Here in Germany, it's the local party committees that select one of their own to be candidate for their district, not the national leadership.

This is what our ballot sheets look like. (Local MP candidates left, popular vote right.)
And this is how our parliament looks like.
We actually have choices who we want to vote.

But I admit that we only developed this election system in 1949 and designed it specifically to make it idiot proof to prevent the development to a two-party system split between a hardcore right and a hardcore left, as happened before. Meanwhile the British and American systems are still medieval.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 12:30:55 PM by Yora »
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Offline isos81

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3399 on: December 12, 2019, 12:38:47 PM »
Turkish system is one of the worst.

You can't even get into Parliament (Grand National Assembly of Turkey) if your party is below %10 in the general elections (This was a measurement put into action by Kenan Evren, coup general/president in order to prevent Kurdish people from getting into the Parliament).

The law is still active and primarily used by the majority to increase their parliamentarian count.
Kallor shrugged. 'I've walked this land when the T'lan Imass were but children. I've commanded armies a hundred thousand strong. I've spread the fire of my wrath across entire continents, and sat alone upon tall thrones. Do you grasp the meaning of this?'

'Yes' said Caladan Brood. 'You never learn'

Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3400 on: December 12, 2019, 01:25:29 PM »
I don't think this will go down well, but I'm not going to be voting. I hate both the Conservatives and Labour, and I don't like the small parties very much either. Not that a vote for them would do anything under First Past the Post.

The country's going to crash and burn regardless of who wins, and if I don't vote I at least won't be morally responsible for any of it.

So your country is going to shit and your reaction is to attempt to void yourself of responsibility? Well I'm sorry, but you can't. Not voting is also a choice that affects what happens with your country, like it or not. There's no hiding in a hole and saying "this wasn't my fault."

And if you stay at home because you're disillusioned, the likes of Boris Johnson will win. And then you'll be properly fucked. Stop thinking of politicians and political parties as someone you have to like. It's always going to be about choosing between options that don't suit you in order to keep the even worse ones away from power.

I should probably clarify that my opinion of Jeremy Corbyn is pretty much exactly as negative as my opinion of Johnson. I don't want either of them to win. Of course, one of them has to win. (Probably Johnson, because the Conservatives always win.) The worst option will win regardless of how we vote. I can't see a future for myself under either Johnson or Corbyn and I intend to get out of this country regardless of who wins.


I accept that I have no right to complain if I don't vote. And I'm not going to. I'm not going to start any arguments over politics with the family this Christmas. I can't blame anyone for voting for either side when the options they were offered were so atrocious.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 01:29:19 PM by Neveesandeh »

Online Yora

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3401 on: December 12, 2019, 01:53:30 PM »
Turkish system is one of the worst.

You can't even get into Parliament (Grand National Assembly of Turkey) if your party is below %10 in the general elections (This was a measurement put into action by Kenan Evren, coup general/president in order to prevent Kurdish people from getting into the Parliament).
We have a 5% threshold, which is generally accepted as being a pretty good compromise between not making it too difficult to get into parliament and avoiding having dozens of tiny parties represented and requiring coalitions of five or six parties to form a government.
In the 60s and 70s, there were only three parties in the national parliament. We got a fourth in the 80s and a fifth in the 90s, and are now at six, showing that it is quite flexible.

The 5% threshold does not apply to the MPs representing electoral districts, and when a party gets three or more such MPs, the 5% threshold is waived for the whole party. In one election in the 90s, a party won four districts, got the threshold waived, and ended up with 30 seats based on the popular vote.
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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3402 on: December 12, 2019, 03:15:42 PM »
Just saw the front page of today's SUN. Is it really legal for a newspaper to say "Please vote for Johnson"? What about journalism being the 4th power?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 03:19:43 PM by xiagan »
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Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3403 on: December 12, 2019, 03:35:12 PM »
Just saw the front page of today's SUN. Is it really legal for a newspaper to say "Please vote for Johnson"? What about journalism being the 4th power?
Oh wow, I didn't know that!
So now I understand this comment from a radio presenter as I was driving to work: he was going through the newspapers front pages and said "and we can't mention the Sun because that is illegal".

Campaigning on election day is totally forbidden!

Interestingly enough, in Portugal it's also forbidden on the day before an election, as that's considered "reflection and decision day".

Edit: I was still thinking about this when I saw some leaflets in my post today, so I tried searching for the rules.
Apparently it's only TV and Radio that are forbidden to 'promote candidates' on election day.
Quote
The regulations, however, are less strict for newspapers and online news sites. Newspapers often publish publish an array of content prohibited for broadcast, from last-minute polls, commentary and positive or negative articles about candidates and parties. Election content and ideological appeals to voters are also often plastered across front pages.
Social media is also exempt.
Isn't this stupid?? The rules should apply to all mediums!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 05:57:23 PM by ScarletBea »
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Offline Nighteyes

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3404 on: December 12, 2019, 10:54:17 PM »
Bugger.
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