September 22, 2019, 05:39:25 PM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 261860 times)

Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3120 on: May 19, 2019, 10:01:38 AM »
I'm pretty sure almost all 'news' these days is just repeating official statements put out by politicians and institutions on Twitter. If I had Twitter, I probably wouldn't bother with the news at all.

Offline Lady Ty

  • Blessed River Lady and Defender of Baby Dragons
  • Ta'veren
  • **
  • Posts: 3454
  • Total likes: 2916
  • Gender: Female
  • So-Old-That-She-Can-Nearly-Be-Called-Oldest-Ty
    • View Profile
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3121 on: May 20, 2019, 07:37:19 AM »
@ScarletBea  From the Eurovision thread. Moved it here not to spoil what was a fun place.
Quote
@Lady Ty, I know it's a stupid thing to say (and in the wrong thread), but sometimes I feel that people don't deserve democracy ::)
Or maybe Australia saw the UK and the US going down the drain and wanted to join them? ;D

 I tried to answer your question Scarlet Bea but my first two attempts got far too long. Of course. So here are some basic thoughts.

It is not a stupid question at all because there have been changes in the last decade in particular that have left people upset and confused and they are not to blame or less deserving.  Everyone who wants a Democratic rule deserves one, because they assume that they are choosing for themselves who/what*  to vote for based on the facts they are given or have learned of the different proposals, policies, outcomes of the sides or parties. If they don't bother to vote they don't deserve it, but not much will change that unless you live in a country where it is compulsory like Australia.

People in general assume that what they have learned from the various media – TV, radio, press, both print and on line, is correct and true. They expect each side will decry the policies of the other and argue against them but people still believe what they hear and choose accordingly.

Obviously there have been lies and twists used forever but in general it worked. But the advent of a media baron like Rupert Murdoch controlling majority all media in a country, plus the impact of Google, FaceBook and, to a lesser extent Twitter etc, spreading news and messages instantly to vast international audiences things have changed and are escalating.

Just a couple of examples from here
Labor fought on action about climate change and cutting down on coal, working up to renewable energy in a big way. There were legitimate worries about mining jobs, which is what you would expect. But also the Govt spread panic about how wind and solar power would raise the cost of electricity, it wouldn't work if the sun didn't shine, or there were thunderstorms.  This is Australia. Don't you have wind turbines in the North Sea?? Heating and cooling is already expensive so people worried.

Any good measure is twisted to make it look as though it favours some and disfavours others. When Labor said they will try to have electric cars introduced widely to gradually reduce petrol ones, it was  translated by press "You need to have charging stations in every garage, tradesmen will have to give up their Utes**  because they can't be electric".

Absolute garbage, but these examples spread like wildfire, all around the nation and people panic, believe and pass it on. The media never denies it because that is what Murdoch wants and we do not have any media except ABC (like BBC) and The Guardian online who are not Right Wing. Even ABC is no longer unbiased because the govt blackmails it with funding cuts. There are incessant robot calls on phones, leaflet drops, placards, so many lies and insinuations spread all the time, everywhere but in the media less chance given or ignored to call them out. All this is hammered in day after day for six weeks or more and people get terrified and believe.

These are drops in the ocean, but also financial corruption kept hidden. Politics is complex and unless you are immersed & interested, it is very boring  for most people who are struggling along with work, families and living, so I don't blame them for not knowing or not being aware.

So Democracy  is broken because of lies and very powerful influences and you cannot blame people for being misled. People absolutely deserve the truth to make a democratic choice, but  I believe this is gone forever now.

Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Leonard Cohen



*Brexit, Scottish Independence being 'whats".
**work trucks in UK

Note Just looked through this again and it sounds so simplistic, there were many many complex reasons why we lost the election, but basically I  was only addressing the democracy question in that context to illustrate the mind numbing power that wealthy media control exerts to influence peoples reaction and increase their control.

Some may wish to comment or criticise or discuss, feel free, but I am probably not going to respond. Have worked in so many ways for the last six years to promote & advocate for a party who would change us for better in so many ways. Had high hopes, but it all down crashed on Saturday and I am not in a balanced mood :-X >:( :'(
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 07:59:35 AM by Lady Ty »
“This is the problem with even lesser demons. They come to your doorstep in velvet coats and polished shoes. They tip their hats and smile and demonstrate good table manners. They never show you their tails.” 
Leigh Bardugo, The Language of Thorns: Midnight Tales and Dangerous Magic

Offline J.R. Darewood

  • aka Duckly Breadgood
  • Writing Group
  • Master Namer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2490
  • Total likes: 1464
  • Gender: Male
  • Zork. And it was all downhill from there.
    • View Profile
    • Nerd Empire
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3122 on: May 20, 2019, 11:32:26 PM »
Bea--

it's a topic often explored in political science, with a million series named "Democracy and its Discontents" riffing off of Freud and his "Civilization and it's Discontents". Aristotle's Politics gets into the mob-rule issue, including the role of wealth in manipulating government.

If you want something more recent than Aristotle I can recommend the following:

Manufacturing Consent (the 1988 book and the 1993 documentary) by Chomsky and Herman

What's the Matter with Kansas? by Thomas Frank

Century of the Self, a BBC documentary series that will BLOW YOUR MIND. It's 4 parts, 4 hours total.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnPmg0R1M04

If you want to go more academic: Democracy by Tilly
and if you want to get some historical context: Democracy in America by de Toqueville (1835) On Revolution by Arendt (1963) and Propaganda by Bernays (1928)

Of course the very best thing you can read on democracy (SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION WARNING) is by my non-fiction alter ego and can be found here (just push the download button in the upper right corner): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237085386_Participation_and_Democracy
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 11:34:57 PM by J.R. Darewood »

Offline ScarletBea

  • Welcome party and bringer of Cake. 2nd-in-Command of the Writing Contest
  • Powers That Be
  • Big Wee Hag
  • *
  • Posts: 10997
  • Total likes: 6353
  • Gender: Female
  • Geeky Reading Introvert
    • View Profile
    • LibraryThing profile
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3123 on: May 21, 2019, 08:14:06 AM »
Of course the very best thing you can read on democracy (SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION WARNING) is by my non-fiction alter ego and can be found here (just push the download button in the upper right corner): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237085386_Participation_and_Democracy
Printed to read later!

Thanks for the suggestions - I might try to check them out at the local library.
By the way, I read Tocqueville back at uni, but I don't remember much - it was *counts* *gulps* 31 years ago ;D
At home in the Fantasy Faction forum!

"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all" - Douglas Adams

Offline Saraband

  • Haggis eater, fantasy scribbler and a Writing Contest Regular
  • Writing Group
  • Master Namer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2283
  • Total likes: 1004
  • Gender: Male
  • Geeky Reading (and Writing) Introvert
    • View Profile
    • BrawBlether
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3124 on: May 24, 2019, 11:55:01 AM »
Theresa May's Trexited before we Brexited. So Shakespearean.
https://brawblether.com

"Poor gauzy souls trying to express ourselves in something tangible." - F. S. Fitzgerald

"Wherever I wander, wherever I rove,
The hills of the Highlands for ever I love." - Robert Burns

Online Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3125 on: May 24, 2019, 12:56:15 PM »
Theresa May's Trexited before we Brexited. So Shakespearean.

And how are Brits reacting?
I'll notify your next of kin... that you sucked!

Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3126 on: May 24, 2019, 01:09:41 PM »
Theresa May's Trexited before we Brexited. So Shakespearean.

And how are Brits reacting?

I've heard/had about 80 seconds of conversation with it, sent one private message that referenced it, referenced it in a text to a mate that was sent primarily to find out if I had credit, and now I'm back at my desk hoping there'll actually be some work to do. So's everybody else.

Best part of it was that when I sent that PM, Iron Maiden's No More Lies came on.
This is the blog of Peat - http://peatlong.blogspot.co.uk/

Online Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3127 on: May 24, 2019, 01:40:02 PM »
I watched her exit speech and pretty much all I heard was "Brexit, brexit, brexit, brexit and brexit."
I'll notify your next of kin... that you sucked!

Offline Saraband

  • Haggis eater, fantasy scribbler and a Writing Contest Regular
  • Writing Group
  • Master Namer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2283
  • Total likes: 1004
  • Gender: Male
  • Geeky Reading (and Writing) Introvert
    • View Profile
    • BrawBlether
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3128 on: May 24, 2019, 01:54:04 PM »
I watched her exit speech and pretty much all I heard was "Brexit, brexit, brexit, brexit and brexit."

I only heard the sound of my laughter. Not a morsel of sympathy. By the way, thousands of EU citizens in the UK were denied their right to vote in the EU elections yesterday, and her government was advised that these problems could happen, but she still ignored the electoral commission's recommendations to make the process easier for EU nationals to vote. Her government did nothing. Good riddance.
https://brawblether.com

"Poor gauzy souls trying to express ourselves in something tangible." - F. S. Fitzgerald

"Wherever I wander, wherever I rove,
The hills of the Highlands for ever I love." - Robert Burns

Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3129 on: May 24, 2019, 03:27:01 PM »
I certainly won't mourn her departure, but replacing her won't change anything. Both main parties are too busy infighting to achieve anything and our broken electoral system will prevent anyone else from gaining enough power to change things.

I don't expect her replacement to stick around very long either.

Offline ScarletBea

  • Welcome party and bringer of Cake. 2nd-in-Command of the Writing Contest
  • Powers That Be
  • Big Wee Hag
  • *
  • Posts: 10997
  • Total likes: 6353
  • Gender: Female
  • Geeky Reading Introvert
    • View Profile
    • LibraryThing profile
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3130 on: May 24, 2019, 04:08:15 PM »
I certainly won't mourn her departure, but replacing her won't change anything. Both main parties are too busy infighting to achieve anything and our broken electoral system will prevent anyone else from gaining enough power to change things.

I don't expect her replacement to stick around very long either.
I feel a bit like this too...  :-\
I feel like burying my head in the sand and ignoring the rest of the country/world, but it's not a very nice attitude to have.

I've been reading about the people who couldn't vote, what a shambles! It even looks like within the same council things aren't coherent, as I got a mail with the extra form plenty in advance and was allowed to just sign, scan and mail it back, while within the same council a hungarian friend of mine didn't receive hers (although her new husband did, and only because he's married to a EU national, as he's from Pakistan).
 ::)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 04:10:46 PM by ScarletBea »
At home in the Fantasy Faction forum!

"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all" - Douglas Adams

Offline xiagan

  • Writing Contest Organizer
  • Powers That Be
  • Elderling
  • *
  • Posts: 5935
  • Total likes: 2586
  • Gender: Male
  • Master Procrastinator
    • View Profile
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3131 on: May 24, 2019, 07:59:11 PM »
So there's a famous Youtuber in Germany (Rezo) who made a one hour long video titled "Die Zerstörung der CDU" [The destruction of the CDU (Merkel's party)] where he shows (with countless sources) that the CDU and the SPD (the two big center-right and center-left parties in Germany) are incompetent, make policy for the rich, destroyed 80,000 jobs in the solar industry to save 20,000 jobs in coal, trust the US blind even when war crimes with German involvement are proven (all drones are flown with the relay station in Rammstein) and don't take climate change and the younger generations serious.

He ends it with: If you want to live on a not fucked up planet (stay under +1.5°C) don't vote for those parties. 
The video got eight Million views in six days and every news outlet is talking about it. I'm curious about it's impact on the EU elections in Germany.
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)

Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3132 on: May 25, 2019, 12:42:56 AM »
I certainly won't mourn her departure, but replacing her won't change anything. Both main parties are too busy infighting to achieve anything and our broken electoral system will prevent anyone else from gaining enough power to change things.

I don't expect her replacement to stick around very long either.

If you want to be optimistic, every stress fracture in the Tory machine is another one closer to it completely wrecking itself and freeing up the country for something sane. The problem is ensuring is doesn't take the entire country with it.
This is the blog of Peat - http://peatlong.blogspot.co.uk/

Offline Bender

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3133 on: May 25, 2019, 01:15:15 AM »
Brexit is one of the biggest clusterfecks ever. The people have been lied to and a opinion poll is masquerading as a legal fact. Now that people look into details they realize they put themselves between a rock and hard place.

May's successor will only have 2 options, revoke the withdrawal by calling a 2nd referendum or exit without a deal. Second option will just make things far worse, but knowing the Tories... they'll just do that and Corbyn doesn't have the spine or balls to help the people.
Not all those who wander are lost

Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3134 on: May 25, 2019, 08:24:13 AM »
I certainly won't mourn her departure, but replacing her won't change anything. Both main parties are too busy infighting to achieve anything and our broken electoral system will prevent anyone else from gaining enough power to change things.

I don't expect her replacement to stick around very long either.
I feel a bit like this too...  :-\
I feel like burying my head in the sand and ignoring the rest of the country/world, but it's not a very nice attitude to have.

I've been reading about the people who couldn't vote, what a shambles! It even looks like within the same council things aren't coherent, as I got a mail with the extra form plenty in advance and was allowed to just sign, scan and mail it back, while within the same council a hungarian friend of mine didn't receive hers (although her new husband did, and only because he's married to a EU national, as he's from Pakistan).
 ::)

I wasn't able to vote, but that's because I didn't find out when the deadline for a postal vote was until after it had passed. I'm still a little bitter that no one I knew bothered to remind me.