May 25, 2019, 08:20:10 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 228201 times)

Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3060 on: March 14, 2019, 12:42:01 PM »
England not the UK? Submitting to an unchanging (despite what May would have us believe) deal dictated by Eurocrats concerned as Peat pointed out with punishing the UK over any deal that actually cuts ties. Presumably May will have a great career in Europe following her inability to do her Job here.

Politics is what you make it and I am very forgiving of those wonderful American allies who funded, supplied and trained terrorists of both religious persuasions to allow them to run protection rackets at home for 25+ years and a lot of kneecapping of Irish youth went on far more than there were shootings or bombings. A certain amount of control has to be exercised if your intent is to strike terror into the civilian population after all.
As for the IRA there were about 600 actively involved from the 70's to it's supposed dissolution. When the guns went away the kneecapping increased.

@Rostum you're right, the US has an awful history, and Americans are culpable in helping fund the IRA.

I'm not saying the IRA is Ghandi, that they didn't profit from the conflict, or even saying much about whether N. Ireland would be better off as part of Ireland given generations of (largely Scottish) migration and economic reliance on the UK. I'm saying distilling the conflict to N vs. S Ireland is blatantly untrue, and especially disturbing hearing an English woman do it.

As for atrocities there are certainly some throughout the last 1000 years of Irish history but fewer than are in local lore and far fewer than were brought up when the tin was rattled in Boston Pubs. I would say the greatest repression in Ireland's history is religion and a moderate churchman is hard to find in both the South and North

Care to talk about the bones America is built on? Plenty of atrocity there after all and that's modern history for the main part.

In an earlier edit of that post, I had compared it to people in the US claiming that white people bore no responsibility for generations of inequality since black people sold each other into slavery.  I edited that out b/c that comparison was a bit intense and I didn't want to go overboard (I wanted to acknowledge that we have jackasses here too, but I didn't want to say the Irish conflict was equivalent to slavery in the US). But yeah, we have a long list of awfulness, genocide against indigenous peoples, and continued awfulness we're committing today in places like Yemen or pretty much almost any country we operate in.

None of that makes it okay for that woman to re-frame the Irish conflict in such a blatantly false and self-serving way. Our awfulness doesn't undo any of hers, no matter how much worse ours may be.

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3061 on: March 14, 2019, 01:02:25 PM »
England not the UK?

England and Wales. Not the UK, because Scotland, and, more importantly in the context of the Irish Troubles, Northern Ireland rejected Brexit in the referendum.

Care to talk about the bones America is built on? Plenty of atrocity there after all and that's modern history for the main part.

That's quite a bit of Whataboutery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism). Can't Bradley or any other American comment on the Irish Troubles, and the UK's significant contribution to them, just because the US have quite a bloody past? Well, we all do, that's no excuse to determine what people are entitled to discuss or not.

Presumably May will have a great career in Europe following her inability to do her Job here.

I think this just proves that there is an almost incurable divide at this point, between my interpretation of what's going on as a Remainer, and yours as a Leaver. To think that Europe looks at May in any amicable way befuddles me, but perhaps that's because I follow some of the European Press, not just the British version of events on this.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3062 on: March 14, 2019, 04:42:19 PM »
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@Rostum you're right, the US has an awful history, and Americans are culpable in helping fund the IRA.

I'm not saying the IRA is Ghandi, that they didn't profit from the conflict, or even saying much about whether N. Ireland would be better off as part of Ireland given generations of (largely Scottish) migration and economic reliance on the UK. I'm saying distilling the conflict to N vs. S Ireland is blatantly untrue, and especially disturbing hearing an English woman do it.

Yeah it's a gut reaction on my part when Americans comment on Ireland. Largely from suffering unwanted diatribes from Americans who know how to fix the problem that is older than their Country and rather more complex than they comprehend without whichever religious flavour of Christianity they had adding to the problem. BTW Americans funded Protestant organisations as well but that was less reported here and presumably there. Ireland became a protection racket and little else from the mid 80's but yes there is very little Eire had to do with the political situation in the North in the latter part of the 20th century and to say so was disingenuous, but I find Americans views on the subject very skewed from my own perspective.

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Quote from: Rostum on Today at 12:20:01 PM

    England not the UK?

England and Wales. Not the UK, because Scotland, and, more importantly in the context of the Irish Troubles, Northern Ireland rejected Brexit in the referendum.

And as a democratic entity the UK voted to leave the EU and as the UK (was) joined to this organisation not the independent countries that make up the UK. As far as the troubles go Scotland has played it's part for the last 500 years and continues to do so with it's sectarianism at home.

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That's quite a bit of Whataboutery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism). Can't Bradley or any other American comment on the Irish Troubles, and the UK's significant contribution to them, just because the US have quite a bloody past? Well, we all do, that's no excuse to determine what people are entitled to discuss or not.

I worked for American firms for over 25 years and through work and socially I have yet to meet an American who was either well informed about a tiny island their ancestors may have come from or were not politically and religiously polarized to lean one way or the other. Ireland is very small and far away in distance and time.

That said it's a forum the idea is free discussion. I certainly don't want anyone to feel they can't/shouldn't post on anything but an even footing. I am aware that Bradley is eminently better qualified to discuss Irish history and Anthropology than I am, however aware lots of Americans have tales of grief and woe with no factual reference at all as tales morphed through the generations and the telling. The truth is horrific enough the folk lore infinitely worse. A knee jerk reaction on my part but no one has any moral high ground in a debate on Ireland.

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I think this just proves that there is an almost incurable divide at this point, between my interpretation of what's going on as a Remainer, and yours as a Leaver. To think that Europe looks at May in any amicable way befuddles me, but perhaps that's because I follow some of the European Press, not just the British version of events on this.

Don't make me agree with you over something @Saraband but I think some of it is perception. My real issues with the EU are probably not what you think likewise my views on Scottish independence are different than you expect.



Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3063 on: March 14, 2019, 07:43:21 PM »
I like how you can have a heated debate and remain (mostly) civil. Good job, guys! :)
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Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3064 on: March 15, 2019, 12:04:24 AM »
BTW Americans funded Protestant organisations as well but that was less reported here and presumably there.

I did not know that!

I worked for American firms for over 25 years and through work and socially I have yet to meet an American who was either well informed about a tiny island their ancestors may have come from or were not politically and religiously polarized to lean one way or the other. Ireland is very small and far away in distance and time.

This is very true of Americans.

I am aware that Bradley is eminently better qualified to discuss Irish history and Anthropology than I am, however aware lots of Americans have tales of grief and woe with no factual reference at all as tales morphed through the generations and the telling. The truth is horrific enough the folk lore infinitely worse. A knee jerk reaction on my part but no one has any moral high ground in a debate on Ireland.

Haha don't give me too much credit! I had a friend that worked for a human rights org in N. Ireland many many many years ago.  She did not enjoy her experience being at the center of the fire, and was pretty agnostic when it came to picking sides.

Most of my expertise lies in conflict and development in the Americas, SE Asia and West Africa. I just dabble in European stuff, so I still have much to learn.  One thing my experience with the topic has taught me: trade might mitigate transnational conflict (in many cases but not always), but it foments and intensifies civil wars (in many cases but not always), steepens patronage networks (pretty much always) and hastens environmental destruction (pretty much always).
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 12:08:37 AM by J.R. Darewood »

Online ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3065 on: March 15, 2019, 07:54:20 AM »
Waking up to the Christchurch terror attack :'(
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Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3066 on: March 15, 2019, 08:14:23 AM »
Waking up to the Christchurch terror attack :'(

Yeah. A massacre of Muslims, presumably by someone who denounces Muslims as being violent. And who has almost certainly never suffered at the hands of Muslims in any way. Just another angry shit who needed enemies.

Much has been said about the banality of evil, but I think the stupidity of evil needs to be acknowledged too.
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Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3067 on: March 15, 2019, 10:31:54 AM »
Today was a wonderful day when our schoolkids marched in tens of thousands to protest for action on Climate Change.  I went to watch and cheer them on in our city centre. Then came home and heard about Christchurch.
 
I wrote this on Page 2 of this Topic in 2015.

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My personal reasons for keeping out of these discussions is that here in Oz we have lived through two toxic destructive years. There has been seriously alarming authoritarianism and uncertainty in a jingoistic atmosphere of fear mongering. Australia's humanity has been internationally shamed and we have been made to look ridiculous in so many ways.  It has been frightening and depressing for so many different categories of people who both deserve and need help.

Since then the culture has worsened. Our govt has ignored and tacitly encouraged, or even in some cases MP's and Senators have openly endorsed white fascist and racist groups. This has been aggravated and encouraged by the Murdoch media who have a stranglehold on our Liberal National Government and are poisonous.

Our Liberals are not like UK or US Liberals, they are Right Wing Tories with extreme elements in the Cabinet. In addition the PM is an evangelical Christian Preacher of the Prosperity Theology. ie you are only poor if you deserve it and if so it's your fault. They think coal is king and Science is questionable. Corruption is rife. There is so much more I could say but it would be a rant and it has no place here. I hope in May we will have new govt but it has been along hard depressing six years.

As a result one of leaders of the  murdering bastards is an Australian and we have let that loose on our decent, kind progressive Kiwi neighbours.

I am shaking with anger and crying with sorrow and deeply ashamed. I am so very sorry, that my country is largely to blame for this.
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Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3068 on: March 15, 2019, 01:42:27 PM »
Seeing the way the media often portrays Muslims and the less focus given to the danger of the Far Right in spite of the far larger threat they pose, I feel in today's climate some atrocity like this was inevitable. We can only hope that from now on governments and the media put more effort into preventing the rise of groups and ideologies that ferment hatred like this.

I don't believe that most of our politicians, at least not where I live, are genuine racists but they have allowed anti-immigrant sentiment to grow so they can win votes through dog whistles. It's a disgusting approach to politics and it serves only to empower Far Right hate groups.

The Far Right is the main terrorist threat we face right now and both our leaders and the general public need to wake up to that fact.

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3069 on: March 15, 2019, 09:09:17 PM »
It's astounding and frightening how many people don't see this as a terrorist attack. You could almost think it has something to do with skin color if somebody is a terrorist or not...

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Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3070 on: March 16, 2019, 02:05:19 AM »
I was thinking earlier, the animal that did this filmed the whole thing and no doubt there are countless pathetic, vile individuals watching and cheering him on in the dark corners of the internet. The thought of it makes me feel sick. How did we get to the stage where there are so many of these white supremacist idiots infesting our society?

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3071 on: March 16, 2019, 09:52:31 AM »
I was thinking earlier, the animal that did this filmed the whole thing and no doubt there are countless pathetic, vile individuals watching and cheering him on in the dark corners of the internet. The thought of it makes me feel sick. How did we get to the stage where there are so many of these white supremacist idiots infesting our society?

Electing one of theirs to the Presidency of the world's most powerful country certainly didn't help. All the signs of Trump's racism have been clear since his birther obsession with Obama. And then he saw a neo-nazi rally and said some of them were "very decent people".

Trump is a symptom of a poison spreading across the whole world.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3072 on: March 16, 2019, 09:52:40 AM »
Quote
I was thinking earlier, the animal that did this filmed the whole thing and no doubt there are countless pathetic, vile individuals watching and cheering him on in the dark corners of the internet. The thought of it makes me feel sick. How did we get to the stage where there are so many of these white supremacist idiots infesting our society?

No this was the actions of a man. Animals rarely kill indescrimently. As for filming one of the dark sides of social media is that it only matters if others can see. I would like to think there are very few violent White Supremicists out there, and they are outliers just as I would like to believe that there are a tiny number of muslims prepared to attack crowds of strangers.

My epiphony was that when you can get away with describing people as something else you can cease treating them as human beings.

I have been expecting an attack against a Mosque for several years. My thoughts were it would be in America or possibly France. New Zealand would never have occured as it is for the most part a tolerant and pleasant place to live.

I have no idea how someone can intend to kill or maim strangers based on race or religion. I do know that this is not acceptable to the vast majority of people.


Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3073 on: March 16, 2019, 10:56:12 AM »
I have no idea how someone can intend to kill or maim strangers based on race or religion. I do know that this is not acceptable to the vast majority of people.

I'd say a profound weakness lies at the core of it. Some people who are deeply, deeply weak in spirit are angry and afraid as a result, and need something to be angry and afraid at. And taking part in online hate discussion lets them feel they belong, and they can only feel any kind of strength by being part of a group or by tearing down easy targets.

It's the same as with regular bullies, just magnified.
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Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3074 on: March 16, 2019, 12:05:02 PM »
I have been expecting an attack against a Mosque for several years. My thoughts were it would be in America or possibly France. New Zealand would never have occured as it is for the most part a tolerant and pleasant place to live.

You say that like it hasn't happened before, but rather than America or France, there was actually an attack on a Mosque in London, in 2017, when a white supremacist drove a van into a crowd of Muslims outside their place of worship: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Finsbury_Park_attack.

This is just the result of years and years of dehumanising the Muslim community on the media and amplifying the Muslim = Terrorist rhetoric of recent years. Academics in this field call the current phenomenon "reciprocal radicalisation", where Islamist terror attacks inspire similar revenge terror attacks by far-right groups. Not exactly the same as what happens in anti-Semitic attacks against the Jewish community, like the Pittsburgh Synagoguge shooting, as those are fed by a different set of conspiracy theories that fit into the false narrative that Jews control the world, and this is something that unfortunately plays into the hands of both extreme left-wing and extreme right-wing hate speech.
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