October 15, 2018, 04:17:43 PM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 175030 times)

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2865 on: October 14, 2018, 12:37:55 AM »
Read this thread a page or two back....

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2866 on: October 14, 2018, 09:25:57 AM »
You aren't from the US but want to do something against Trump?

Sign here.

US Americans can sign too, of course.

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Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2867 on: October 14, 2018, 01:59:45 PM »
I appreciate the sentiment, but such a thing is worse than useless - it distracts from the three things that actually can and will help us pass this gallstone of a man through the system:
1. Voting at the local, state, and federal levels for people who oppose him
2. Communicating with officials at every level that supporting Trump will cost them your vote
3. Communicating with officials at every level that you want the Mueller investigation to proceed and be acted upon; failure to support this end will cost them your vote.

Beyond this, getting involved with politics is the cure. Americans have treated politics like fast food restaurants: "We don't want to get involved with what's on the menu or what kind of service they offer; let them handle things. If we don't like what they offer, we'll just go elsewhere else" - the problem being there is nowhere else to go.

I personally believe we need to be smart and abandon dumb candidates early, like Clinton, who was massively unpopular; so unpopular that this stoat of a man was able to defeat her. We need to offer change - reasonable Trump voters wanted two things: change and not-Clinton. We need to offer them that.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2868 on: October 14, 2018, 02:45:34 PM »
I concur. The other thing that will happen from a worldwide petition is you will polarize Americans into defending the system that put him there from the outside world. May not supporting Trump will not tolerate outside interference.

Offline Skip

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2869 on: October 14, 2018, 04:36:55 PM »
Trump isn't the problem. Trump is a symptom of the problem.

Trump would never be president except that millions of Americans voted for him. Never mind about meddling and electoral colleges--the fact remains, millions of Americans voted for him, and millions of Americans continue to think he's doing a fine job and represents them and their interests.

That says something significant about us as Americans. And if you are thinking "well, that's not me" then that's exactly the heart of the problem. You're dividing, too. We're all capable of being the good Nazi.

The point about voting is profoundly important. Even with Trump voted president, he'd go nowhere without the support of Congress, and Congress would be only partially effective without a similar push at the state and local level. Where do you suppose support at the national level comes from? The xenophobia, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. (the list is very long) has been boiling along at the local level ever since the Moral Majority in the 1970s.

If we keep focusing just on Trump, we are giving ourselves a pass on everything else. We blow our nose and pronounce ourselves cured.

We have to grow up and stop blaming others. Trump is us. Reagan is us, Bush is us, Steven Miller is us, Steve Bannon is us, Mitch McConnell is us. It's no good saying that's not who we are. The record speaks for itself. The only relevant question is, why do we let it go on, generation after generation?

Online ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2870 on: October 14, 2018, 04:40:58 PM »
I wonder about people that will only vote because some celebrity or other said so...
What education about civil rights do we have in schools?
And I'm not talking about America only, I think this is a problem everywhere...
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2871 on: October 14, 2018, 07:39:51 PM »
Democracy is vaunted as the best political system and we pretend to live in one. That said the first wold is significantly freer than the rest, has a greater number of people actively employed and with a beyond subsistence incomes along with social programs such as healthcare, education and infrastructure.

Democracy never meant universal suffrage until quite recently.

The right to vote should be protected even for those people who are not competent to do so. Eventually you get to a place where only the people who vote for you are the only ones allowed to vote.

Education is key but you cannot get those uninterested to comprehend or those with fundamentalist beliefs to accept.

Europe is largely safer than the UK or USA as coalitions are common and temper the worst of governmental policy. However the right is growing in popularity throughout Europe and Scandinavia. We easily see our own little Americas here.

Offline Skip

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2872 on: Today at 04:35:51 AM »
I'm not at all sure education is the key. It is necessary but not sufficient, to use the distinction philosophers use. Just because people get educated doesn't mean they come to the same conclusions we right-minded folk do. Even the extensively educated can hold to appalling ideologies.

Americans, as some Americans will point out, isn't a democracy, it's a republic. There's a difference. I've always thought it significant that our two (count 'em) political parties have used those two terms. We still don't have universal suffrage, as we decide certain people are not competent--the very young--or not worthy--the criminal.

Absolutely the right to vote needs to be protected, for it is under constant attack by those who would manipulate or constrain it to their own advantage. Pretty much always has been. What strikes me is not so much the strident resurgence of the right (for I've always known it was there) as the abysmal failure of the left to respond effectively (for I once believed in it).
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2873 on: Today at 10:39:50 AM »
Without education how is an informed choice possible? Knowledge and understanding do not hinder the process and pretty much ensure people will have different opinions and ideologies.

Since when have democracy and republicanism been mutually exclusive? Democracy being a system created to ensure a few rich and powerful slave owning men to be equally unhappy with any political outcome. Needless to say it has moved on a little. Republicanism being the a system created to allow a few rich and powerful slave owning men to be equally unhappy with any political outcome, but without a monarch to take the fall for said outcome.

The definition of universal suffrage is here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage

Are you aware that from a European perspective there is no left in American politics and the people we are worried about have similar policies to your two main parties?
« Last Edit: Today at 11:56:58 AM by Rostum »