July 17, 2018, 02:44:05 PM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 154310 times)

Online Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2700 on: June 20, 2018, 07:13:11 AM »
Quote
Is he a blip or a huge rallying point?  The pictures on instagram made it look like there were enormous protests. Like an alternate universe racist-version of Free Mumia or something.

A blip would be bigging it up. The EDL got between 50 and 200 to march at the few events they organized. The counter protest was often ten times the size.

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2701 on: June 21, 2018, 09:05:17 AM »
























« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 10:24:48 AM by xiagan »
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Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2702 on: June 21, 2018, 01:08:15 PM »
One ray of sunshine from a particularly narrow and dark angle: Trump is dismissing a senior official who, among other things, has kept him in check by insisting his Secret Service detail be given enough time to thoroughly check out places he is going...
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Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2703 on: June 21, 2018, 08:51:49 PM »
I wrote a huge post summarizing the horrific stories that have come out of our government sanctioned child abductions up to Trump's recent Executive Order, but honestly, I deleted it. It was literally too dark and disturbing for his forum. I'll simply summarize with the following:

1) Trump ordered family separations to begin and could have stopped them any time. He and his administration all lied about doing that. Then, Trump passed an EO saying to stop what he'd ordered and could have stopped with a phone call.

2) Trump's EO actually doesn't do ANYTHING to reunite the thousands of children we've already stolen, and in many cases, we don't even know how to do it because we kept no records. Stephen Miller (Trump's ghoulish advisor who was also behind the Muslim travel ban) pitched the idea that stealing the kids of illegal immigrants and deporting them without their children could deter future immigration, and Trump took that to heart. Many of them may never be reunited with their families (a stolen infant can't tell you who its parents are) and these babies will instead be flagged "abandoned" and sold for adoption.

3) Trump's EO lays the foundation for us to hold immigrants indefinitely at concentrations camps, which we currently can't do. So there's that.

4) There are stories coming out that children have been tortured, drugged, and even died in private custody. Even for those children we manage to reunite with their parents, the psychological damage we've already done to the children we abducted is permanent and, according to many pediatricians, will damage them for life.

5) Trump's supporters are totally cool and happy about all this and, in fact, hope we put more children in cages because "they shouldn't have broken the law".

6) Fox News and all our right-wing media is working overtime to convince their brainwashed viewers that photos of children in cages are photoshopped, the work of crisis actors, or "no worse than summer camp". And those brainwashed simpletons who voted in Trump believe it.

So, hooray! On Trump's orders, the United States is now guilty of multiple human rights violations, and many of Trump's supporters are really happy we did this!

That's the country I live in now. I truly hope, once the scope of what we've done is revealed, our allies start to sanction us for human rights violations like Iran or North Korea.

Online Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2704 on: June 21, 2018, 11:05:30 PM »
Maybe the plan to destroy America as the worlds only superpower has been brought forward...

Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2705 on: June 21, 2018, 11:11:10 PM »
One ray of sunshine from a particularly narrow and dark angle: Trump is dismissing a senior official who, among other things, has kept him in check by insisting his Secret Service detail be given enough time to thoroughly check out places he is going...

I didn't think this guy could surprise me anymore, but it is amazing that his chaos and impatience actually extend to things that have to do with his personal safety.
I'll notify your next of kin... that you sucked!

Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2706 on: June 22, 2018, 09:25:08 AM »
I have to admit it is heartening to see just how strongly the American population is revolting against the child snatching.

Rachel Maddow mentioned a couple who set out the gather 1500 dollars in donations to help out at least ONE parent being held in custody at the border. They've gotten 17 million and counting.
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Online Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2707 on: June 24, 2018, 11:40:28 PM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44594652

Pesky laws keep stopping me doing what I want to.....


Offline Bradley Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2708 on: June 25, 2018, 03:04:55 AM »
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/world-cup/world-cup-2018-xherdan-shaqiri-granit-xhaka-goal-celebrations-fifa-investigation-a8414211.html

I found the comments to actually be more informative than the article... which is becoming more and more common unfortunately.

"Xhaka's father was tortured by the Serbs. We should never forget genocide, especially something so recent. They have not provoked in any way just reacted emotionally. Slobodan Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic were responsible for the Srebrenica genocide. Many Kosovans were tortured too. Who from that culture would not forget. Or should forget."

I don't actually watch football/soccer/sports of any kind but found this whole controversy thing interesting.

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2709 on: June 25, 2018, 05:17:01 AM »
I seem to recall the reasons for military involvement in Kosovo were overstated. There are either UN security council or NATO reports available stating the UN got played and pretty much handed the region over to criminals.
Those who supported intervention seem strangely deaf and blind to what has happened since. 
A friend worked for 4 months within the region for an NGO before they were pulled out as 'unable to operate' do to political influence.

articles here.

https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/03/01/kosovo-a-nest-of-crime-fugitives-in-europe/

https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/corruption/Kosovo_Business_corruption_report_EN.pdf

https://www.pri.org/stories/2011-03-27/kosovos-mafia-how-us-and-allies-ignore-allegations-organized-crime-highest-levels

Link to obtained NATO report in last article which is now sadly a dead link.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 05:26:08 AM by Rostum »

Offline Bradley Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2710 on: June 25, 2018, 05:49:26 PM »
That's actually a pretty typical post-conflict MO. During war, smugglers and warlords make resistance possible, establishing patronage networks. While their cause might be valid, post conflict peace is established by the international community buying out the embattled leadership and converting them into politicians, ultimately solidifying their criminal business and internal strong-arming of their own people. Post conflict democracy is corrupt by design and typically leaves out civil society and human rights/accountability groups and the general public.

That doesn't mean the serbs don't bear responsibility for genocide perpetrated against the Croatians and Albanian. I've met a couple of researchers and went to school with someone from Kosovo. He had stories of people being herded into stadiums to be shot en masse, I think his sister had her ear cut off as a trophy.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 09:24:21 PM by Bradley Darewood »

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2711 on: June 25, 2018, 11:17:23 PM »
Except there was no genocide. I have no love for the Serb nationalists but they just didn't do what they were accused of. The original point was that the UN got played. The massed graves found have dated from the war and not before (this is important as it was justification to get involved) and have yielded hundreds, not thousands and include Serbians and non Albanians killed by Albanian guerrillas.

Offline Bradley Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2712 on: June 26, 2018, 09:03:01 AM »
Idk the figures I've seen were thousands total killed (like nearly 10,000 which accounts for 10% of the total casualties of the war), not sure about mass graves.  That's significant enough for me. What number do we need to make it a genocide instead of a massacre?  I'm not sure, but the bottom line is that civilians were being executed by non-civilians who held political power because of their ethnicity, the rest seems semantic to me.

Karadzic was found guilty of genocide in international courts. From what I've read (and it must not be the same as what you've read) the criticism wasn't over numbers but evidence that the government ordered the killings and it came from Israeli academics, and Israeli academia is actually being boycotted for complicity with their own government's massacres of civilians so I'm not really sure what the angle is there (possibly shared islamaphobia or a desire to keep the word 'genocide' limited to WWII scale activities). I've heard the criticisms that the courts were too lenient in not pursuing evidence the serbs wanted to keep secret as well.

I haven't actually been there, I'm just going from what I've read and people I know personally who have, so maybe I haven't seen all the evidence, but my understanding is that there are very valid reasons for continued tension.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 09:06:36 AM by Bradley Darewood »

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2713 on: June 26, 2018, 10:31:41 AM »
I think claiming there wasn't a genocide because the numbers weren't as high as anticipated is a bit jarring. Maybe ethnic cleansing would be more accurate, because the UN's own investigation concluded that the Yugoslavs' primary aim was to displace the ethnic Albanian population, and not kill them, but ethnic cleansing is often a part of genocide.

The fact that Kosovo has become a nest of corruption, paramilitaries and high levels of violence doesn't invalidate previous attempts to successfully stop the said ethnic cleansing.
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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2714 on: June 27, 2018, 02:08:21 PM »
Quote
I think claiming there wasn't a genocide because the numbers weren't as high as anticipated is a bit jarring. Maybe ethnic cleansing would be more accurate, because the UN's own investigation concluded that the Yugoslavs' primary aim was to displace the ethnic Albanian population, and not kill them, but ethnic cleansing is often a part of genocide.

Point noted and I totally agree. I am merely attempting to be dispassionate about the subject. My bias is not pro Serbian or Albanian but against being dragged into yet another Ill thought out war on false information.
with hindsight 'did we do good' would be a no 'did we stop worse' possibly.

And the end result is current Serbian population of Kosovo 700-800 down from 20,000 per-hostilities. Does that count as ethnic cleansing?

HRW stated civilian deaths due to NATO action stand between 1200-5000 and HLC's documented death toll stands at just below 13000 as of 2015