May 30, 2020, 07:03:02 PM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 326513 times)

Offline Nora

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2085 on: June 08, 2017, 07:54:22 PM »
Been watching this. 1h in and completely engrossed.

[youtube]73bIlOzjFHo[/youtube]

Ideally should read this first though, as the whole interrogation is based on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:8_June_2017_Comey_Statement_for_the_Record_Senate_Select_Committee_on_Intelligence.pdf

Ideally should also have followed the last few months' news as well.
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Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2086 on: June 08, 2017, 08:04:35 PM »
Does anyone here have the understanding of American law to comment on the actual likelihood of Trump being impeached?
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Offline Nora

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2087 on: June 08, 2017, 08:41:34 PM »
There is no need for that. Someone needs to draft a proposal for impeachment, which is already being done by the Texas Senator Al Green.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-democrat-rep-al-green-starts-process-impeach-trump-n769051

Next step is for a vote to make it possible, and here lies the hassle :

Quote
Articles of impeachment are simply a statement of allegations; the president can be impeached only by a majority vote in the House, which is controlled by Trump's fellow Republicans.

So Trump's actions would need to convince a majority of Republicans, and they should see impeachment as the only possible course of action.
It would be a horrible smear on the Republicans in general though, so I think most will prefer backing Trump till it's not possible any more.

Downright treason is also problematic. When Trump colluded with the Russians the day after firing Comey, and revealed major classified information to them, because he's the ultimate "de-classifier", the moment that intel leaves his mouth, it's not classified any more. So was telling this to the russians treason? No. But it's a thin line.
Interesting answer there :

https://www.quora.com/Can-a-sitting-U-S-president-be-charged-with-treason
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Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2088 on: June 08, 2017, 10:00:22 PM »
So Trump's actions would need to convince a majority of Republicans, and they should see impeachment as the only possible course of action.
It would be a horrible smear on the Republicans in general though, so I think most will prefer backing Trump till it's not possible any more.

My personal belief is that Nora is absolutely correct. No matter what Trump does, he will not be impeached by the House Republicans. They hold the majority, and their agenda remains the same - strip down healthcare, cut taxes for the wealthy, and repeal environmental regulations that hit the pocketbooks of their donors. Trump helps them do that, regardless of the damage he does to the US (and the world) because if nothing else, he is a spectacular distraction.

As an example, today our House Republicans voted to repeal Dodd-Frank. It's the legislation Obama and the Democrats put in place to prevent a recurrence of the massive economic crash that caused us to bail out our banks. It did this by outlawing the incredibly risky and predatory financial practices that caused our large banks to default in the first place and be judged "too big to fail."

Today, while the Comey hearing was going on, Republicans voted to repeal Dodd-Frank (because it hurts the pocketbooks of their wealthy donors) in order to allow banks to go back to doing the risky things that led to the crash and bailouts. And our news media barely covered it, because they were busy watching Comey.

I believe the Republican leadership sees Trump as their ultimate "get out of jail free" card. They know he is incredibly unpopular, and they know the policies they want to pass (such as stripping healthcare from 24 million people and drastically cutting taxes for billionaires and corporations) are also unpopular. They believe they can do these things while Trump distracts everyone, and then, after they complete their agenda, they blame it all on him and say they never wanted any of it (never mind it's all been done).

Why would this work? Because their voters get their information from Fox News and ONLY Fox News, and Fox News works in lockstep with Republicans. Once the house and senate GOP complete their agenda (probably by 2018 or 2019) Fox News will spin the narrative that Trump is the reason they (Trump voters and Republicans) all lost their health care, and the House Republicans did all they could to stop him.

Republicans will finally turn on Trump publicly before 2020, once they have passed all the unpopular legislation they hoped to pass, and lay all the blame for it on Trump. Fox News will back this up, and since Trump/Republican voters only watch Fox News (all other media is "fake news") they'll eat this up, and vote for the same people who raised their taxes and took their healthcare away in 2020.

It's a sad prediction, but it's where I feel this is headed. The Senate is already also fast-tracking the horrible anti-healthcare bill passed by our House (another thing that the media didn't cover today, thanks to Comey coverage) and hope to have it done and passed by fall. So, 24 million people could lose insurance sooner than anyone thinks.

Offline Nighteyes

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2089 on: June 08, 2017, 10:27:36 PM »
STRONG AND STABLE MY ARSE!

HUNG PARLIAMENT. DISASTER FOR TORIES. WOO HOO!
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Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2090 on: June 08, 2017, 10:53:52 PM »
STRONG AND STABLE MY ARSE!

HUNG PARLIAMENT. DISASTER FOR TORIES. WOO HOO!

I so want to believe that exit poll, but I don't want to wake up with a cold reality punch to the stomach.

But let it be true, let it be true  ;D
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Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2091 on: June 09, 2017, 12:51:39 AM »
Dear UK dont want a hung Parliament - praying for a landslide that buries the Tories for years.Hate what they're doing to UK. Even though I've left I still have family there and care about the country always.
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Offline Nora

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2092 on: June 09, 2017, 08:02:39 AM »
Hung parliament it is. And even though many talk of it, I doubt May will go away without a fight. So hoping for a second brexit referendum...

Back to the states : cheer up @tebkutis this bill would need support from democrats to pass in front of the senate before it ends on Trump's desk. people need to pay attention to it, but démocrates are on watch these days. I doubt they'll let this slide.
Comey's hearing was incredible and laid out the basis for impeachment no matter that it was used as a smoke-screen, especially if it results in Trump's ass and administration  getting out the window.
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Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2093 on: June 09, 2017, 10:02:47 AM »
This is such a weird day. A campaign run on a need for strength and stability culminates in chaos, and you can hear the Tories sharpening their knives, ready to come for Theresa May.

Meanwhile, against an overwhelmingly toxic press, Corbyn came out with a phenomenal election result, given the circumstances. If he hadn't been undermined by his own party ever since he became leader, the reality of this election could have been even more incredible.

What a time to be a politics junkie  ;D
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Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2094 on: June 09, 2017, 10:06:37 AM »
Meanwhile, against an overwhelmingly toxic press, Corbyn came out with a phenomenal election result, given the circumstances. If he hadn't been undermined by his own party ever since he became leader, the reality of this election could have been even more incredible.
The other day on the news someone was saying that maybe if he'd been as enthusiastic in the referendum campaign as he was in this one, maybe the result would have been very different...

I'm definitely not into politics, but even though this uncertainty is quite bad for the markets and economy, I'm really glad this was the result. It was getting far too much...
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Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2095 on: June 09, 2017, 08:44:53 PM »
So can someone in the UK translate for me - as a staunch Anti-Trump American who values civil liberties, social inclusion, and progressive ideals - should I be happy for this election's outcome, or sad? At no time can I commit to getting angry - all my anger's reserved for Russia's Double-Secret Probation Agent Orange.
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Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2096 on: June 09, 2017, 09:17:18 PM »
Happy.
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Offline Quill

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2097 on: June 09, 2017, 09:22:08 PM »
So can someone in the UK translate for me - as a staunch Anti-Trump American who values civil liberties, social inclusion, and progressive ideals - should I be happy for this election's outcome, or sad? At no time can I commit to getting angry - all my anger's reserved for Russia's Double-Secret Probation Agent Orange.

I think it can best be summed up by "could have been better, could have been worse". The Tories will probably stay in power, but they lost their absolute majority, meaning they will have a harder time pushing their agenda through. A less obvious consequence could also be that the Tories will be too busy in-fighting to do as much damage as normal.

The lack of a clear result and a clear majority in Parliament could prove problematic for the Brexit negotiations, though, and make that process even more gruelling. Which, regardless of what part of the political spectrum you prefer, is troublesome for the country.

I'm not in the UK, so that's just my take, looking at things from the eastern side of the North Sea.
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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2098 on: June 09, 2017, 10:08:08 PM »
The outcome the Tories hoped for and most expected was a stronger Tory party in Parliament. It was weakened instead. The Tory party will be in upheaval after this major failure and are desperate enough to seek the support of extremists to cling on to their majority, which is sure to put off their base even more.

And UKIP (far right tossers) lost their one MP and their party leader deleted his Twitter account.  8)

Progressives still have a tough fight ahead, but I think it's a good day for anyone who likes fluffy stuff like human rights and health care for people who aren't rich.
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Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2099 on: June 09, 2017, 10:19:56 PM »
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htsU7DEm5v4[/youtube]
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