May 26, 2017, 05:48:31 PM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 91938 times)

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1920 on: March 14, 2017, 09:35:21 PM »
At the last referendum oil was nearly $150 a barrel at the moment it is $46 a barrel Scotland has already been hit by Saudi flooding the markets with cheap oil. Decreased output from the North sea fields and localized recession in oil towns.

This is true. No point in arguing against facts. But there is more to the economic argument than oil, particularly from the Green supporters of Independence.

The SNP has done a fair job of destroying education public services and the police and Scotland's financial situation will continue to deteriorate as public spending bears no relation to revenues.

This is factually wrong. Scottish public services, education, and NHS services are much better when compared to England. In the case of the NHS alone, it was recently reported on the news that it was rated 12% higher than the English one. Also, the Social Contract in Scotland is incredibly more progressive and generous, with free prescriptions and free university degree, just to name a couple of things.

Sturgeon is looking to deflect blame by whipping up nationalistic fervour nothing more. If May says no to a referendum then everything is all the fault of the English(as usual).

This is just silly victimizing. The Scottish Nationalists don't blame the English, nor is Scottish Independence fueled by anti-English sentiment. It is against Westminster, which is different. It is against a Tory government, which they did not elect, telling them how to govern themselves. That is a different issue. You say they are overrepresented, I say the opposite. And if you think that they have more money spent on them per capita and should have a lesser presence in Westminster, then you should be the first to support their independence, no? In that case, you wouldn't have to subsidize the poor Scots anymore - a win/win outcome for both sides!  :D

Perhaps asking why the SNP are so desperate for independence from the UK only surrender it to the EU would be a valid question?

That is merely a Brexiter's perspective of the EU. From my point of view, every nation in the EU is independent. And Scotland would have much greater sovereignty over its own affairs in the EU than it currently has with the UK.

Living in Scotland, and listening to what the Scots think, made me realize that Independence makes every sense. The EU referendum showed that the English and the Scots want different, conflicting paths for their future. Instead of accusing them of leeching the resources from the rest of the UK because oil revenues have fallen, let them decide what they want, and not what a Tory government wants for them.

No, I'm not Scottish. Not even British. But I live here, I have friends here, and I care deeply about this country. And the EU matter is only a side issue - the real one, is that Scotland has the resources to stand on its own as an independent nation, and that it should be able to govern its affairs according to what its people want, and not as a Westminster government (that they didn't vote for) wants. And I will happily canvass and help in what ways I can to help achieve this goal  :)
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1921 on: March 15, 2017, 01:27:11 AM »
Quote
Quote
The SNP has done a fair job of destroying education public services and the police and Scotland's financial situation will continue to deteriorate as public spending bears no relation to revenues.

This is factually wrong. Scottish public services, education, and NHS services are much better when compared to England. In the case of the NHS alone, it was recently reported on the news that it was rated 12% higher than the English one. Also, the Social Contract in Scotland is incredibly more progressive and generous, with free prescriptions and free university degree, just to name a couple of things.

Factually wrong is that like lying? A bucket of money is given to Scotland how they spend it is up to the assembly. The strategy has been centralisation to cut waste. This hasn't worked and after it was shown not to be working it was increased. Councils have no fiscal control and the poor have been hit by cuts in services the hardest. significantly More is spent on health PHPA in Scotland and a greater sense of well being is generated as far as medical outcomes go there is no difference across the UK despite the extra spending and despite exceeding the $1,700 purchasing Power Parity which is the trigger point to better health in Europe and Scandinavia. Scotland remains an exception. So yes more is spent but treatment wise there is no difference or slight decline in medical outcomes for that extra cash. I agree the social contract in Scotland is what it should be in the UK but I doubt it is sustainable. I wont get into university fees beyond it was Scottish Labour MP's who ensured that the English pay fees for places and may they all be damned for it.

Anyway don't take my word on it have a nice infographic from Scotlands biggest union.

http://www.unison-scotland.org.uk/publicworks/TheCutsDontWork_UNISONScotlandReport_June2014.pdf

And The telegraph covers maintaining the financial bubble

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/11/snp-borrow-max-using-scotlands-new-powers/

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Sturgeon is looking to deflect blame by whipping up nationalistic fervour nothing more. If May says no to a referendum then everything is all the fault of the English(as usual).

This is just silly victimizing. The Scottish Nationalists don't blame the English, nor is Scottish Independence fueled by anti-English sentiment. It is against Westminster, which is different. It is against a Tory government, which they did not elect, telling them how to govern themselves. That is a different issue. You say they are overrepresented, I say the opposite. And if you think that they have more money spent on them per capita and should have a lesser presence in Westminster, then you should be the first to support their independence, no? In that case, you wouldn't have to subsidize the poor Scots anymore - a win/win outcome for both sides!  :D

The national sport of the Scot is blaming the English for his nations ills of the last thousand years. There are plenty of examples on any forum you care to visit on independence. And yes I have 30+ years of hearing this and do at work at the moment as independence is again topical. There are a huge number of Scots living in England nearly all because there was no work at home.

The SNP's sole aim was to ensure independence from the UK. The failed but wound up in government. I maintain they are riding a bubble and have achieved little beyond years of cuts that have neither hit targets or achieved intentions. They are painting themselves into a corner and need a distraction.

As for representation Scotland returns from pop stats

POPULATION NUMBER OF MPS MPS PER 1,000,000 MEMBERS OF POPULATION
UK 63230000 650 10.279
ENGLAND 53010000 533 10.054
SCOTLAND 5295000 59 11.142
WALES 3064000 40 13.054
N. IRELAND 1811000 18 9.939

It should instead be: England (545), Scotland (54), Wales (32), N. Ireland (19).
Source(s): Population Statistics

Presumably the SNP are pushing the under represented nonsense. In a social democracy we should all have equal representation and I note there is no English assembly or rules preventing Scots MP's voting on solely English matters such as University fees. This has proved an unmitigated disaster and the monetizing of education hear means class may not be an issue but wealth certainly is.
BTW up to 2005 it was 79 Scots MP's returned. The population of England increases around 6 times faster than Scotland to boot.

I think An independent Scotland could do well probably as part of the Scandinavian trade group but it will take 20+ years of change and hard decisions. Free education and prescriptions are likely the first things to go. As will a lot of jobs in military support and shipyards and the nuclear industries. Then the oil is gone in 15 years or so.
Do generated tax revenues come close to what is spent even when services are being cut? Conditions to join the Euro and EU cannot currently be met and as stated Spain really doesn't want that precedent as its wealth is tied to the south which wants to be independent.

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    Perhaps asking why the SNP are so desperate for independence from the UK only surrender it to the EU would be a valid question?

That is merely a Brexiter's perspective of the EU. From my point of view, every nation in the EU is independent. And Scotland would have much greater sovereignty over its own affairs in the EU than it currently has with the UK.

Living in Scotland, and listening to what the Scots think, made me realize that Independence makes every sense. The EU referendum showed that the English and the Scots want different, conflicting paths for their future. Instead of accusing them of leeching the resources from the rest of the UK because oil revenues have fallen, let them decide what they want, and not what a Tory government wants for them.

No, I'm not Scottish. Not even British. But I live here, I have friends here, and I care deeply about this country. And the EU matter is only a side issue - the real one, is that Scotland has the resources to stand on its own as an independent nation, and that it should be able to govern its affairs according to what its people want, and not as a Westminster government (that they didn't vote for) wants. And I will happily canvass and help in what ways I can to help achieve this goal  :)

The exceptionalism is staggering The Scots voted like everyone else for an MP to represent them in Westminster and in their own assembly. Of the UK they are a tiny proportion of the population. The tail does not wag the dog. Presumably the 55 million English should accept that the will of the Scots is more important?

I loathe the term Brexit we never joined so how can we leave. While I believe we will be railroaded to a very bad place by unelected Eurocrats the concept of free borders and a trade group I am in favour of. I firmly believe in the ECHR which is entirely separate but often confused with EU policy. I am against further expansion and against money being able to travel freely over borders. After the UK has left say Scotland gains entry to the EU
They would be the 11th largest economy and pick up their share. Now what happens when everyone finally stops pretending Greece can meet its debts or several other economies cascade in the same manner as part of the UK the blow is lessened by Stirling and by a larger population base. If you are part of the Euro hmm.
I actually think the EU will unravel at the point the Germans find their pensions don't do what has been promised and people start looking at where the Wealth of Europe has vanished to.

I am glad you are passionate about Scotland it is easy to become so. Please don't confuse the love of nation with the SNP MPs though there is much more to it than that and Having remarkably found themselves in power will work very hard to remain so and not for anything as altruistic as an ideal. Independence will happen but not in Sturgeons term of office she asked the country it said no. This is what she can't accept and has been left in governance in trying times unable to improve or hold together what Scotland had beforehand.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 01:37:09 AM by Rostum »

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1922 on: March 15, 2017, 02:42:34 AM »
Picking up the topic of illegal immigration from the Logan thread:

Our Congress can't / won't work together to solve the causes of this situation, let alone that actual situation and the people caught up in it, resulting in a great big fat Heinz Dilemma. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_dilemma
The Heinz Dillemma:
Spoiler for Hiden:
Heinz's dilemma is a frequently used example in many ethics and morality classes. One well-known version of the dilemma, used in Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development, is stated as follows:

A woman was near death. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to produce. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $1,000 which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said: “No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it.” So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's laboratory to steal the drug for his wife. Should Heinz have broken into the laboratory to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?[1]

From a theoretical point of view, it is not important what the participant thinks that Heinz should do. Kohlberg's theory holds that the justification the participant offers is what is significant, the form of their response. Below are some of many examples of possible arguments that belong to the six stages:
Stage one (obedience): Heinz should not steal the medicine because he will consequently be put in prison which will mean he is a bad person.
Or: Heinz should steal the medicine because it is only worth $200 and not how much the druggist wanted for it; Heinz had even offered to pay for it and was not stealing anything else.Stage two (self-interest): Heinz should steal the medicine because he will be much happier if he saves his wife, even if he will have to serve a prison sentence.
Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine because prison is an awful place, and he would more likely languish in a jail cell than over his wife's death.Stage three (conformity): Heinz should steal the medicine because his wife expects it; he wants to be a good husband.
Or: Heinz should not steal the drug because stealing is bad and he is not a criminal; he has tried to do everything he can without breaking the law, you cannot blame him.Stage four (law-and-order): Heinz should not steal the medicine because the law prohibits stealing, making it illegal.
Or: Heinz should steal the drug for his wife but also take the prescribed punishment for the crime as well as paying the druggist what he is owed. Criminals cannot just run around without regard for the law; actions have consequences.Stage five (human rights): Heinz should steal the medicine because everyone has a right to choose life, regardless of the law.
Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine because the scientist has a right to fair compensation. Even if his wife is sick, it does not make his actions right.Stage six (universal human ethics): Heinz should steal the medicine, because saving a human life is a more fundamental value than the property rights of another person.
Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine, because others may need the medicine just as badly, and their lives are equally significant.

If I understood correctly, Killer sees a black and white, legally clear choice to break or obey the law to which everything can be distilled. This is not false, but I think it's incomplete and simplistic. That puts him on level four.

My perspective aligns with level five or six, depending. I see many issues ranging from policy, economics, desperation (more than 5 kinds) and ignorance that result in that choice being thrust upon people, resulting in people making choices that only appear to be the same, but are not, and for very different reasons. In other words, this is like people who kill in self-defense, kill for fun and profit, kill in war, and kill to protect people from killers. Yes, they are all killers. And yes, killing is always bad. But even in something as clear as taking lives, there are gradations and shades of circumstances that change how the same act can and should be considered.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 02:45:46 AM by The Gem Cutter »
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Offline Nora

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1923 on: March 15, 2017, 08:48:19 AM »
Wait. Why would Scotland need to take the euro? Poland, Denmark, Sweden and (obviously) England never did.
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Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1924 on: March 15, 2017, 10:00:36 AM »
What I don't understand is, if Scotland is clearly such a burden for the English, why aren't you in favour of its independence? One can only conclude that you believe it to be dragging down the rest of the UK, and that it gets more than it deserves both politically and economically, so wouldn't getting rid of it work best for you?  ::)

Seriously, screw the oil. No nation should decide on its future based on a fossil fuel.

Independence should also be distinguished from the SNP. The SNP is a political party. In an independent Scotland, you can boot them out if you like.  Just don't pretend that they are solely responsible for what Scotland is today. From what I understand, when the first elections for a Scottish parliament took place after devolution, in 1999, Scotland was still licking the wounds of a decade of Thatcher, and an increasingly complacent Labour Party, whose conduct resulted in the mess that they find themselves today - an unelectable mess, with no sense of direction, trying to stop the hemorrhage of votes in what were its so-called heart lands for decades.

The SNP have much to be blamed for, but so have the Tories and Labour, and the latter ones weren't elected by the Scots.

In an independent Scotland, we can vote the SNP out, and aim towards a proper Social-Democratic Republic ;D Independence is not the end-point, it is merely the means to achieve a better future, more in accordance with the aspirations of the people up here. It is increasingly apparent that they are very different from those down south.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1925 on: March 15, 2017, 02:08:22 PM »
The UK is weaker without Scotland. Scotland voted No to independence. Scotland will obviously become independent if you look at the referendum voting demographics. The SNP turned itself from a fringe political party to having nearly all the Scots seats in Westminster which is an incredible achievement. I doubt they will do this well again. In part it was due to the ineptitude of Labour who listen to no one anywhere and the Conservatives writing off Scotland pre-Thatcher. A protest vote in part. I am not a fan but I am not keen on Politicians as a rule and parties are the bane of democracy. The SNP's social policies should align closest with my
own political views, yet they have shown themselves far from altruistic to date and have spoken of a thing while doing something else. The economic nonsense they were talking before the Referendum has been replaced by cuts and borrowing and a real drop in standards, pay and quality of service. You might as well have voted Tory if that's what you wanted.

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Seriously, screw the oil. No nation should decide on its future based on a fossil fuel.


I quite agree but basing an economy on oil a volatile commodity was the SNP's strategy last time round. Windmills, solar and Hydro have a part to play but will never supply demand. So if you have an anti nuclear policy eventually you are likely to be sitting in the dark and contemplating freeze drying the neighbours for food.

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in 1999, Scotland was still licking the wounds of a decade of Thatcher,

Like the rest of the UK or just Scotland?
Thatcher was not some plague upon the land in comparison to those who came before and after and if you really follow that line Wales suffered far greater depredation that Scotland. Having actually lived and worked in both the north and south during that time some in the UK did well and some badly out of her policies. My parents came close to losing their home due to interest rate rises. Edinburgh (or those with money) strangely did quite well.

Quote
The SNP have much to be blamed for, but so have the Tories and Labour, and the latter ones weren't elected by the Scots.

Yes they were and it has always been so. You vote for a candidate, usually aligned with a party. The party with the most elected candidates chooses a prime minister. This is as close as we get to democracy. Do you honestly think that the wishes of any individual anywhere are listened to? The Scots are less than 10% of voting population of the UK are over represented, decide their own policies and control their own enhanced (more per head than the RUK) budget through an independent assembly. English, Welsh and Irish MP's cannot vote on Scots matters. Please think rationally about what you are being told.

The case for an independent Scotland was made and rejected. The referendum was fairly and democratically carried out. Why on earth is it so hard to accept that the majority of Scots said no and there is no case for another at this point. Would you like it to be an annual event until independence is achieved? Would you then be happy about a referendum to rejoin the UK or would that be a step to far?
Calling another so close on the heels of the last is disrespectful to the will of the people and would set a precedent for further referendums until the desired result is achieved. It will happen but I doubt Sturgeon will be in office. She had her shot. I also doubt the next one will be a close result and that will be better for Scotland either as part of the UK or as an Independent Nation.


Edit: Sorry Nora missed my Response off.

Quote
Wait. Why would Scotland need to take the euro? Poland, Denmark, Sweden and (obviously) England never did.

If Scotland wish for independence then they would need to sever ties to Stirling you cannot be independent and
maintain the UK's currency as your own that would be potentially damaging to both parties and economically. England and Scotland could bear the brunt of the others currency weakening and the effect it has on supply and trade. Despite the SNP's statement that they would keep the pound Stirling this was never contemplated by the Bank of England. You are independent or not in the event of independence the SNP don't get to choose the bits they want or don't want.

Scotland would have to either reinstate the Scottish pound as an independent(not tied to the pound Stirling) currency or adopt the Euro. As the inclination is to Join the EU there is probably greater stability in adopting the Euro than have the financial markets decide the value of a brand new currency. The Euro went into free fall when it was launched. Scottish currency potentially could do far worse as large and strong and established economies were backing the Euro. Not a new nation floating a currency not independent since 1595.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 04:42:00 PM by Rostum »

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1926 on: March 16, 2017, 01:25:06 AM »
Picking up the topic of illegal immigration from the Logan thread:

Our Congress can't / won't work together to solve the causes of this situation, let alone that actual situation and the people caught up in it, resulting in a great big fat Heinz Dilemma. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_dilemma
The Heinz Dillemma:
Spoiler for Hiden:
Heinz's dilemma is a frequently used example in many ethics and morality classes. One well-known version of the dilemma, used in Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development, is stated as follows:

A woman was near death. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to produce. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $1,000 which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said: “No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it.” So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's laboratory to steal the drug for his wife. Should Heinz have broken into the laboratory to steal the drug for his wife? Why or why not?[1]

From a theoretical point of view, it is not important what the participant thinks that Heinz should do. Kohlberg's theory holds that the justification the participant offers is what is significant, the form of their response. Below are some of many examples of possible arguments that belong to the six stages:
Stage one (obedience): Heinz should not steal the medicine because he will consequently be put in prison which will mean he is a bad person.
Or: Heinz should steal the medicine because it is only worth $200 and not how much the druggist wanted for it; Heinz had even offered to pay for it and was not stealing anything else.Stage two (self-interest): Heinz should steal the medicine because he will be much happier if he saves his wife, even if he will have to serve a prison sentence.
Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine because prison is an awful place, and he would more likely languish in a jail cell than over his wife's death.Stage three (conformity): Heinz should steal the medicine because his wife expects it; he wants to be a good husband.
Or: Heinz should not steal the drug because stealing is bad and he is not a criminal; he has tried to do everything he can without breaking the law, you cannot blame him.Stage four (law-and-order): Heinz should not steal the medicine because the law prohibits stealing, making it illegal.
Or: Heinz should steal the drug for his wife but also take the prescribed punishment for the crime as well as paying the druggist what he is owed. Criminals cannot just run around without regard for the law; actions have consequences.Stage five (human rights): Heinz should steal the medicine because everyone has a right to choose life, regardless of the law.
Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine because the scientist has a right to fair compensation. Even if his wife is sick, it does not make his actions right.Stage six (universal human ethics): Heinz should steal the medicine, because saving a human life is a more fundamental value than the property rights of another person.
Or: Heinz should not steal the medicine, because others may need the medicine just as badly, and their lives are equally significant.

If I understood correctly, Killer sees a black and white, legally clear choice to break or obey the law to which everything can be distilled. This is not false, but I think it's incomplete and simplistic. That puts him on level four.

My perspective aligns with level five or six, depending. I see many issues ranging from policy, economics, desperation (more than 5 kinds) and ignorance that result in that choice being thrust upon people, resulting in people making choices that only appear to be the same, but are not, and for very different reasons. In other words, this is like people who kill in self-defense, kill for fun and profit, kill in war, and kill to protect people from killers. Yes, they are all killers. And yes, killing is always bad. But even in something as clear as taking lives, there are gradations and shades of circumstances that change how the same act can and should be considered.
My initial answer to this without looking at the options. yes, he should steal the medicine, because the dealer is ripping him off, and it's his wife. When you love someone, most of us are willing to do anything to keep them around. Even if, in the end, it won't.

After looking at the options.
I'm somewhere around stage 4, but also 5 and 6. Stage 4 comes in when he gets caught, or if he gets caught I should say. If he gets caught, then he has to take the punishment. You can fight for him in court to get the minimum sentence, which based on his situation I think is fair because of stages 5 and 6, but he still has to take it. if he doesn't get caught however, good for him. He did the right thing.

I completely agree with you about the killers thing. i don't have a universal answer for that. It all depends on circumstance.

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1927 on: March 16, 2017, 03:28:26 AM »
When I was studying this in college, I went home and presented the quandary to my three sons, about 4, 5, and 9. I used my wife as the victim. The 4 year old was like "Have to steal the medicine to save mom." The five year old said "Sorry mom, I can't break the law."  My oldest gave the best answer I've ever heard. I had explained that the pharmacist had taken out a loan and would lose his home if he wasn't able to recover the money he spent by selling the medicine. My oldest said "I steal the medicine, save mom, turn myself in, accept responsibility for my actions, and work to pay the pharmacist back."
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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1928 on: March 16, 2017, 08:29:48 AM »
My oldest gave the best answer I've ever heard. I had explained that the pharmacist had taken out a loan and would lose his home if he wasn't able to recover the money he spent by selling the medicine. My oldest said "I steal the medicine, save mom, turn myself in, accept responsibility for my actions, and work to pay the pharmacist back."
You have a son to be totally proud of!!!!
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Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1929 on: March 17, 2017, 12:22:54 AM »
Yeah, I really like that answer.

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1930 on: March 20, 2017, 06:14:12 PM »
The FBI and DNI's testimony before Congress are encouraging. The house of cards is looking wobbly.
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Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1931 on: March 20, 2017, 06:31:59 PM »
The FBI and DNI's testimony before Congress are encouraging. The house of cards is looking wobbly.

Can you give us foreigners the gist of it?
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Offline Nora

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1932 on: March 20, 2017, 06:46:26 PM »
The FBI and DNI's testimony before Congress are encouraging. The house of cards is looking wobbly.

Can you give us foreigners the gist of it?

Trump twitted that Obama had trump tower wire-tapped during the elections. But a president can't order people being wire tapped and the accusation led to some outrage. Trump was forced to prove himself and promised some answers in the coming two weeks, but there is a congress hearing and the head of the FBI, Comey, confirmed that there were none - at least no wire tapping that the department of justice and the FBI were aware of.

Then trump tweeted that Comey was fake news, just 4h before Comey confirmed that the FBI is currently investigating a trump-Russia collusion.

Smells like shit for trump, but given the amount of outrageous stuff he's manage to make look average so far, I don't see how anything short of treacherous would get him impeached.
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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1933 on: March 20, 2017, 08:09:06 PM »
As important as the admission (already known) that there's an investigation ongoing is the context of what Trump brings to the Republican majority. I believe they are prepared to impeach him for any number of reasons - from the sexy Russian collusion issue, and more bland but less controversial violations of the Constitution's Emoluments Clause. But only once they get what they want: repeal/replace of Obamacare (and Trump's blame for the repercussions), the placement of a supreme court justice they like (about to happen), and the elimination of EPA and other restrictions on corporations, which have already well begun.

Trump's destabilizing of our alliances and deplorable behaviors an issue congressmen on both sides can't stand (not all, but many), and I think all this will reach a critical mass, whether earth-shattering revelations occur or not. That said, I think we'll find there's huge collusion going back to last spring/summer regarding the election and sanctions, as well as business deals going back even further.
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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #1934 on: March 21, 2017, 12:02:05 PM »
As important as the admission (already known) that there's an investigation ongoing is the context of what Trump brings to the Republican majority. I believe they are prepared to impeach him for any number of reasons - from the sexy Russian collusion issue, and more bland but less controversial violations of the Constitution's Emoluments Clause. But only once they get what they want: repeal/replace of Obamacare (and Trump's blame for the repercussions), the placement of a supreme court justice they like (about to happen), and the elimination of EPA and other restrictions on corporations, which have already well begun.

Trump's destabilizing of our alliances and deplorable behaviors an issue congressmen on both sides can't stand (not all, but many), and I think all this will reach a critical mass, whether earth-shattering revelations occur or not. That said, I think we'll find there's huge collusion going back to last spring/summer regarding the election and sanctions, as well as business deals going back even further.

I don't think Republicans will impeach him, this past election showed they are terrified of ticking off his supporters for fear of losing their seats and some of them (like that idiot Peter King from Iowa) are fully on board with that he's doing.  He would have to do something so egregious that they would have absolutely no choice but while there is a hell of a lot of smoke coming out of the Russia stuff it doesn't quite appear they have found the fire or know how involved in the firemaking Trump actually was.  I really hope Democrats aren't banking on impeachment and instead should be looking towards 2018 and 2020 and getting themselves organized on a national AND state level for once.

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