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Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 315586 times)

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #750 on: June 24, 2016, 08:16:09 AM »
Waking up today to confirm what I feared would happen. Life will go on, but I couldn't have been more disappointed with the English. Ignorance and complete disregard for the facts won, and immigration as the scapegoat for the woes of the country was the strategy that ultimately succeeded.

On the plus side, incredibly proud of Scotland. Edinburgh voted 75% for remain, so I will not let what happened south of the border make me feel any less welcome. But now there are many uncertainties, as mentioned by @ScarletBea.

On other plus side: there's now a very strong case for a new Scottish Independence referendum. And yes, being pro-EU and wanting out of the UK are not contradictory, since the worst that could happen for Scotland would be to remain tangled to a Conservative government that won't guarantee the same rights and subsidies for the Scottish industries.

And so we have a Nationalist party in Scotland that embraces and celebrates immigrants, unlike any other Nationalist party in Europe. And I sincerely hope that they do what's best for Scotland.

Update: Cameron just resigned. So, in a few months, we may have Donald Trump in the US, and Boris Johnson in the UK. Talk about the future being a very scary prospect.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 08:34:40 AM by Saraband »
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Offline CameronJohnston

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #751 on: June 24, 2016, 08:57:52 AM »
Yes, well, saddly, this brexit could well sign the death of the EU in general, and many things could indeed go awry.

Yes @CameronJohnston, Edinburgh indeed, though I'm arriving with all my life's belongings in the middle of the bloody summer festival, so I might go and work a month in the Highlands while things quiet down in the city, before looking for job and housing. Are you around the area?

Gutted! Considering that in Scotland the NO vote to independence (including Westminster) were heavily pushing the "A YES will take you out of the EU" angle, I'm fully expecting the next vote to be in full favour of independence. We're sick of bawbags like Farage.

In a time of global political and economic turmoil this is the last thing anybody needs.

*sigh* Life goes on...

 @Nora - I'm in Glasgow, part of the Glasgow Science Fiction Writers' Group there. In Edinburgh you have the Edinburgh Genre Group and also a bunch of spoken word events you might be interested in.

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Offline Mr.J

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #752 on: June 24, 2016, 10:30:27 AM »

Offline Henry Dale

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #753 on: June 24, 2016, 10:42:38 AM »
I'd like an opinion from a uk citizen on these things:
Do you believe the poll was fair?
While the majority of the voters are more likely to be elderly/retired people because younger people had less time/were perhaps less engaged? Perhaps a forced vote would yield a more representative result?
Is the minor majority considered a fair system concerning a sensitive subject as this? Would a major majority have been better? (For example, 60% required for the referendum to be binding and lower majorities forcing it on the agenda of politicians)

Offline Mr.J

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #754 on: June 24, 2016, 10:48:03 AM »
Some stats for you:

Quote
Number of UK citizens: 65,111,143
Number of Leave voters: 17,410,742

So just 27% of the country have made a decision which affects us all.

About 28% didn't vote.

75% of 18-25's voted for Remain, the decision of which will effect them the most.
62% of over 60s voted for Leave, the decision of which will effect them the least.

And now we will have a new Prime Minister elected by 1500 members of the Tory party from a choice of two candidates, not elected by a UK public that has been told we should leave the EU because we don't elect them...when we do.

DEMOCRACY.


Offline Hedin

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #755 on: June 24, 2016, 01:10:26 PM »
What is the typical UK voter turnout for a regular election?  As an American I would love at 72% turnout as I think it would really change the dynamics here but the best we seem to do is about 50%.


Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #756 on: June 24, 2016, 01:19:26 PM »
What is the typical UK voter turnout for a regular election?  As an American I would love at 72% turnout as I think it would really change the dynamics here but the best we seem to do is about 50%.
Last time was 66% - graph here.
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Offline Captain Blobby

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #757 on: June 24, 2016, 01:47:15 PM »
I'm an Electoral Administrator and I've spent the last bloody 12 months being harrassed by the referendum. I could probably contribute but my piss has yet to come off the boil. 

Offline Mr.J

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #758 on: June 24, 2016, 01:52:21 PM »
West Midlands was one of the highest areas of Leave in the country.

What I found completely bizarre was the Channel 4 Minority Debate, where they showed loads of people who are second generation immigrants voting for Leave because the country is too full and we can't have immigrants taking all our jobs. Loads said that. People who emigrated themselves in their family and are here because of it.

Mad. Utterly mad.

Also Bristol voted 61% Remain to 38% Leave, so I'm pleased about that.

Offline Hedin

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #759 on: June 24, 2016, 02:07:29 PM »
What is the typical UK voter turnout for a regular election?  As an American I would love at 72% turnout as I think it would really change the dynamics here but the best we seem to do is about 50%.
Last time was 66% - graph here.

Looking at this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_the_United_States_presidential_elections we haven't gotten to 65% since 1908.  Turnout on non-presidental elections is even worse.

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #760 on: June 24, 2016, 02:27:42 PM »
Sorry for you English people ... once Scotland and Northern Ireland are out, there's not much left of a United Kingdom ...
Cameron was using the EU as a scapegoat for everything that was wrong in the UK for years - is he really surprised that this stuck with people? No matter what he said in the last weeks.

I'd like an opinion from a uk citizen on these things:
Do you believe the poll was fair?
While the majority of the voters are more likely to be elderly/retired people because younger people had less time/were perhaps less engaged? Perhaps a forced vote would yield a more representative result?
Is the minor majority considered a fair system concerning a sensitive subject as this? Would a major majority have been better? (For example, 60% required for the referendum to be binding and lower majorities forcing it on the agenda of politicians)
Very interested in this.
I think it's crazy that 50% of the voters was enough. For a decision with so severe consequences I'd have thought a 2/3 majority would've been needed.

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Offline Nora

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #761 on: June 24, 2016, 03:14:25 PM »
Hedin, I think the main issue is what will happen to people like Bea or myself, who entered the country through Schengen, having EU passport. If they exit the accords, there will be a need to draft some sort of other agreement, because otherwise "foreigners" are meant to enter the country with visas, and visas have limited durations, costs a lot of money, or need previous requirements, etc.
For example, I'd love to be living in NZ right now, but I couldn't get myself a different visa after my WHV, and hence had to leave...
So yeah, there is also the issue of free health care, notably of all the british retirees living the sweet life in spain. Health care would also need agreements. For example, brits get medicaire in Oz, but not french, despite france having an amazing health care system. We just don't have contracts/accords for it.

All that shite needs to be sorted out. There is no guarantee that things will simply continue to go on as they are right now, since, after all, the UK might become just as foreign a country to us as Russia is.

Mr J, you might not like it, but if there was a 100% turnout vote, what would you say? It doesn't matter if a 60yo is "less affected" than a 20yo. At 60 you're meant to have more wisdom, more life experience. You've been through little crisis, you might have wizened up, read political or economical articles, etc.
At 20 you might be able to vote whilst never having had a job and never having opened a serious newspaper.
Just because you don't like the pov of the opposing camp doesn't make yours more righteous.
Democracy works very well when well applied. Our current super liberal state democracies are hardly such, more ruled by the few power hungry old dogs who've been in the business for over 20 years than anything.
But trust me, if Britain does a second vote that again decides to leave, and the country actually leaves, I'll hand them the respect of listening to their citizens.

In france we had a national referundum like that a the new EU constitution, and we voted NO. So did the Irish if I remember. They buried the topic, and two years later they ratified the same constitution, but this time without asking our opinion, it was like nothing had happened. Public outrages did nothing for it, but it's a slight that I remember, trust me.
I'm envious of the direct democracy of the Swiss.

Anyway, it won't hurt the Scots to gain their independence. Or it might, a bit, economically, but they've been under Britain's fat finger forever, while never being truly happy with it. Might as well seize the moment...
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Offline Hedin

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #762 on: June 24, 2016, 03:26:18 PM »
I'd like an opinion from a uk citizen on these things:
Do you believe the poll was fair?
While the majority of the voters are more likely to be elderly/retired people because younger people had less time/were perhaps less engaged? Perhaps a forced vote would yield a more representative result?
Is the minor majority considered a fair system concerning a sensitive subject as this? Would a major majority have been better? (For example, 60% required for the referendum to be binding and lower majorities forcing it on the agenda of politicians)
Very interested in this.
I think it's crazy that 50% of the voters was enough. For a decision with so severe consequences I'd have thought a 2/3 majority would've been needed.

This struck me as well, 52-48 doesn't quite feel like a clear enough mandate for something that has such large implications.


Hedin, I think the main issue is what will happen to people like Bea or myself, who entered the country through Schengen, having EU passport. If they exit the accords, there will be a need to draft some sort of other agreement, because otherwise "foreigners" are meant to enter the country with visas, and visas have limited durations, costs a lot of money, or need previous requirements, etc.

Yeah this is going to be a huge messy issue.  I hope would they would do something that if you're already there you'll be fine because I'm sure this will effect millions of people.  Not only will you create a great hardship for those people but losing that many will devastate the economy.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 03:35:00 PM by Hedin »

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #763 on: June 24, 2016, 03:38:33 PM »
Seeing as if you voted leave you are arrogant, uninformed with a disregard for the facts and it is implied you are a bigot and racist or at the least a Farage/UKIP supporter.
I am wasting my time but here goes.

The world has not ended. Nobody is going to be pitchforked into the sea, forced to leave or locked up. Applying for residency or dual nationality may be a plan in certain circumstances. For example a Hungarian friend has been working in the UK for 10 years is married to an Englishman and they have a son born in the UK. She is not planning on leaving the UK but dual nationality may be sensible in case the marriage goes bad in the future. Either way she is unlikely to lose any rights within the UK.

UKIP got more votes than the SNP at the last general election but retained 1 MP to the SNP's 56(?) Farage and UKIP are not relevant when discussing the viewpoint of UK voters or even Leave voters. They for the most part did not vote for him and do not believe in his politics. Please stop jumping to this conclusion if people believed in UKIP or there leave campaign the would have a sizeable minority of seats at Westminster.

Scotland is heavily in favour of the EU and a small sparsely populated country it is likely to be better off as part of a European superstate. Independence is a certainty, in time. Those voting to remain in the UK are largely older members of the Scots population with the 16-25 year olds being in favour of independence. It is going to happen. If it happened at the last referendum Scotland would be in a mess as fiscal policy based on oil revenue at $144 a barrel was nothing short of lunacy. With hindsight a lucky escape. The UK voting to leave the EU has actually made it easier for them to join as Spain would have vetoed them as a member due to concerns about their own separatist movement. This may be less of an issue if they are not a member of the UK after the UK has left the EU. I think aligning themselves with the Scandanavian trading block may be a better move.


@Sarraband part of the Scottish industry of which you speak is related to the UK's submarine fleet and general Naval fleet. The SNP's anti nuclear policy will mean it relocates completely in the event of independence. the 20,000 or so related jobs don't get to stay in Scotland as a given. In my adult lifetime I have seen industry devastated in England yet with Naval contracts were given time and time again to Scottish yards, staunch labour seats until recently. Our new ridiculous aircraft carries were worth 10 billion to Scotland.
An independent Scotland cannot expect such contracts. Also rights are not affected that’s the ECHR and regarding subsidies Scotland is devolved and makes its own decisions on how the pot of money it plays with is dished out. Despite what you will hear in Scotland everything is not really England’s fault (just most of it) Scotland is over represented in the UK parliament (England doesn't have one) get more per head spent on them than the English and the union came about with a Scots king on the English throne. Which facts do you feel were disregarded and what are your uncertainties? Your right to live in the UK, right to healthcare, education and right to work are not being taken away. In the next 5 years Some bureaucracy may be involved.

Quote
Anyway, it won't hurt the Scots to gain their independence. Or it might, a bit, economically, but they've been under Britain's fat finger forever, while never being truly happy with it. Might as well seize the moment...

@Nora I was under the impression a foreigner had to be in Scotland for 5 minutes before becoming a rabid (mock Jock) Scots nationalist. Thanks for clearing that up. The Scots love to tell you how oppressed they are by the English but ask them about how Scots MP's carried the vote to force tuition fee's on the English while they still receive free higher education at home then ask them about the West Lothian Question. The tail really does wag the dog. Also Scots independence before it happens Scotland really needs to know what the Hebrides will do before that happens. If the answer is hold a referendum to cede from Scotland that could be problematic.

MrJ the cartoon is the most relevant part of your post. UK population figures old enough to vote and with the right to vote in the referendum would be more helpful. There are more over 65 than under 18 and I am surprised you would make such an ageist remark from your previous posts. Anybody living in the UK is affected by the vote regardless of age or whether they had the right to vote or by the result. Regarding work if that’s what you were referring to there are arguments both ways on that, but the retired have pensions and investments and state benefits that may all be affected. An exceptional turnout for the referendum and higher than most general elections.

An aside if the referendum has been on whether or not the UK left the Commonwealth or the ECHR I would vote to remain. I don't see how you can join something passively. You can be press ganged though.
A greater Europe, A European federalised state is great in principle. Had we been asked to join. (Personally I would have declined) but we were not at any point. That I object to.
I also got a snapshot of what happened in Hungary and how their economy was strip mined by joining the EU. Long term as a nation they are better off but introducing personal debt on a national scale is a questionable trade off.

Will the UK leaving destroy the EU? I doubt it, but don't know. I think it was well on the way to fiscal ruin and am grateful we did not join the Euro. Please don't think this could go on indefinitely.
In 4 months time when Greece has defaulted on its debts again and whoever is in charge in the UK is summoned to Brussels and told to find a couple of hundred million I am curious to hear the answer.
This money does nothing to help the Greek people but ensures international banks get their due and would become an annual event.

Since Joining the EU the UK is no longer food, or energy secure and has seen its primary and secondary industry destroyed. This is not necessarily an effect of being a member but does mean the UK imports far more than it exports. This will not change in the immediate future. I do not believe tariffs on UK goods exported to Europe are likely as The UK reciprocating would hurt financially Germany France and Holland far worse than the UK.

May be useful http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036802.stm
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 03:49:33 PM by Rostum »

Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #764 on: June 24, 2016, 03:42:22 PM »
Not very happy right now. Think it might be time to emigrate tbh.
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