December 12, 2019, 03:50:13 PM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 288503 times)

Offline Lanko

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #600 on: May 05, 2016, 05:24:34 PM »
Go, Trump! Make America great again!
Slow and steady wins the race.

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Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #601 on: May 05, 2016, 09:53:24 PM »
Landslide predictions always worry me because if enough people believe that then maybe they figure they don't need to vote and things become a lot closer than they normally should be.  Hillary is definitely not a popular candidate and I too think its going to be close.   I can't believe I'm actually going to have to vote for one of these two.
I feel the same way you do.

In my opinion, this election really comes down to war. No matter what, everything both of these candidates do is going to suck. So the question becomes do we strike first or wait to retaliate? That's what I'm deciding anyway. The rest is a wreck. Maybe the debates will change my mind. We shall see.

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #602 on: May 06, 2016, 12:01:57 AM »
Landslide predictions always worry me because if enough people believe that then maybe they figure they don't need to vote and things become a lot closer than they normally should be.  Hillary is definitely not a popular candidate and I too think its going to be close.   I can't believe I'm actually going to have to vote for one of these two.
I feel the same way you do.

In my opinion, this election really comes down to war. No matter what, everything both of these candidates do is going to suck. So the question becomes do we strike first or wait to retaliate? That's what I'm deciding anyway. The rest is a wreck. Maybe the debates will change my mind. We shall see.

Respectfully, the statement that "both of these candidates are the same" is simply untrue. There are stark differences between Hillary Clinton (Democrat) and Donald Trump (Republican), and what will happen in the United States if one or the other is elected.

Neither candidate may offer *everything* you'd like in a president, but to say which one is elected will make no difference is absolutely incorrect. There are very large differences.

Here is a summary of the current Republican party platform. These are things they have publicly and repeatedly stated they will try to accomplish, if Donald Trump is elected president.

Republican Platform Goals:

Overturn Roe vs Wade: Make abortion illegal everywhere, for everyone. Force women (even those who are raped, sometimes by family members) to carry their rapist's baby to term, regardless of their age or circumstances. Disallow all exceptions save for "health of the mother".

Trump Bonus: Trump has publicly said he believes women should be "punished" for having an abortion.


Elect Very Conservative Justices to the Supreme Court: This is perhaps the largest and longest impact our next president will have - nominating Supreme Court justices. Under Trump, we will see more justices in the vein of Scalia or Thomas. Under Clinton, we will see more justices in the vein of Kagan or Sotomeyer. Judge for yourself which you will think will move this country forward, but absolutely understand that YOU help determine who is appointed to a lifetime Supreme Court position, by voting for Clinton or Trump.


Eliminate the Public Safety Net: Republicans actively campaign about ending food stamps and all other forms of government assistance to the poor. This includes the so called "child care credit" where people can ask for additional assistance if they have children. So to restate: the Republican platform insists that you MUST have a child, but once that child is born, you MUST NOT accept any money to take care of him or her. Good luck working any job as a single-mom with a newborn child.


Make Gay Marriage illegal again: Republicans and their president will work to overturn the Supreme Court decision that recently allowed marriage equality in the US. Methods suggested including amending our Constitution to state "Marriage is between one man and one woman" and/or "leaving it up to the states" (which means any state that wished too could completely ignore your legally binding marriage).


Allow governments to actively discriminate against LGBT people: See the dozens of recent state laws, including the North Carolina "Bathroom Bill". The Republican word for this is "religious freedom". What this means is to give people who believe LGBT people are perverse the "freedom" to refuse to serve these people at your business, deny them admission to your business, fire them from their jobs for being LGBT, and even deny them housing (what if the person who owns an apartment complex is against gay people? Kick them out.)

If Republicans succeed in implementing their "religious freedom" bills, they will successfully strip rights away from American citizens who are LGBT. Republicans in the House and Senate, as well as local legislatures, will be free to go as far as they like in denying LGBT rights if Trump is elected, and Trump will not stop them.


Overturn and the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare). Republicans in the house have already voted to do this over 20 times. Each time, Obama has vetoed the bill. Trump would not veto the bill.

Overturning the Affordable Care Act (which, by the way, has been upheld by the Supreme Court) would strip millions of Americans of the health insurance they have recently acquired since it was enacted, including many people who could not previously get insurance at all due to 'pre-existing' conditions.

Paul Ryan Bonus: Ryan has publicly said that he believes insurers should be able to put anyone with a 'pre-existing' condition in high risk insurance pools (read - super expensive) or deny them healthcare altogether.


Forcibly Round Up and Exile Illegal Immigrants: This includes those who have lived and worked here for over 10 yeras, with no criminal record, and who may also  be the parents of children who may themselves be US citizens. That's right, the kids (many of whom may still be children) can stay, but their parents must go. Also, Trump apparently thinks he can make Mexico pay for a wall on our border. Mexico will not do this. Finally, a report released recently suggests that if Trump's plan was successful, he could slice 2% off the US GDP, and estimates of how much it would cost to build the wall make it impossible even if Mexico did pay for it. So there's that.


Do Absolutely Nothing About Climate Change: The official position of the Republican party is that climate change is a "hoax", despite overwhelming, worldwide, and near universal scientific consensus to the contrary. Florida is currently trying to figure out how to prevent itself from going underwater in the next ten years due to rising sea levels, and Florida workers are currently forbidden from using the word "climate change".

The Pentagon and the Navy have both asked to prepare for climate change, and been expressly forbidden to do so by the Republican senate. Should Trump be elected, will will not honor existing climate agreements, and we will do *nothing* to slow or mitigate climate change. This means our children and grandchildren could live in a vastly warmer world, with a shortage of food and resources as well as unrest across the world, and a number of previously livable areas underwater.

This is what the Republican party officially believes we should do about climate change ... take no action.


Disenfranchise Poor and Minority Voters: A number of local legislatures controlled by Republicans are actively working to disenfranchise poor and minority voters by passing bogus "voter ID laws" (obstensively to prevent voter fraud, but actually to make it harder for poor people to vote), closing down polling locations in poor areas, shortening or getting rid of early voting periods (most people who work have to use those to vote, since they can't get off work) and shortening the hours at which you can go to the polls (again, the focus is to make it harder for people who have to work during the day to vote). Under a Republican president, these policies will continue and grow.

So what does Hillary believe, and what is the democrat platform?

Now, I could restate the Democratic platform on which Hillary is running in reverse to all I've typed above, but it's simpler to simply state that Hillary Clinton is opposed to ALL of these things. If Clinton is elected president, she will not work to make abortion illegal, will nominate progressive Supreme Court justices, will not make gay marriage illegal, will not endorse and allow discrimination against LGBT people, will not remove the public safety net, will not overturn the Affordable Care Act, will not endorse disenfranchising poor or minority voters, will not ignore climate change (she has stated it is very real and we must act), and will not round up and exile illegal immigrants, even those with jobs and families.


You may be in favor of the rungs of the Republican platform, and the stated policy goals of Donald Trump. If that's true, we respectfully disagree, however, you are at least clear in what you support, and are being honest about what a vote for Trump and the Republican party will do if he is elected.

Your vote is your vote: but you should at least understand what it means.

Offline Lanko

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #603 on: May 06, 2016, 12:18:08 AM »
I don't even follow this thread, but man, I can't resist these "Trumpocalypse" posts  ::)



"I think we would get along very well." Trump on Putin.


Putin and Trump riding together.


Image: "Breaking News, April 8th, 2020: President Trump congratulates Putin on the retaking of Constantinople for the Western Alliance."

You are guys are getting it all wrong! The Great Wall of Texas is just a diversion! Putin will get Ukraine and Trump will get Mexico! It's all already planned!

Go, Trump! Make America great again!  ::) (Ironic icons where)
Slow and steady wins the race.

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Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #604 on: May 06, 2016, 12:20:20 AM »
So I had to start skimming that list halfway down. Half the stuff on that list is impossible to accomplish, and is pretty much everything bad and extreme that Republicans want to do. No matter who gets elected each side will have pros and cons. I hope that's what the debates will show me. What you did is list Republican positions, listing only the cons and none of the pros. You also chose the most radical position you could find.

Also, something the Media refuses to talk about with this whole Health Care mess. If you don't get health insurance, you have to pay a fee to the government if they can track you down, and it's pretty high. I know because my family faced this issue a couple of years ago. We ended up getting health insurance, but the price was insane. Also, lots of Republicans want what is called "open competition", which would force health insurance companies to compete beyond state lines and cause a reduction in prices. That's not terrible is it? Sure, it's not the free health care lots of people want, but it's a better option than we have. State boundaries are apart of the price issue. At least here in Georgia.

Bottom Line: There are diverse political positions within the party itself. The President doesn't have all the power. A Republican president who believes all of the radical viewpoints you listed would not be able to accomplish half of them.

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #605 on: May 06, 2016, 12:52:55 AM »
So I had to start skimming that list halfway down. Half the stuff on that list is impossible to accomplish, and is pretty much everything bad and extreme that Republicans want to do. No matter who gets elected each side will have pros and cons. I hope that's what the debates will show me. What you did is list Republican positions, listing only the cons and none of the pros. You also chose the most radical position you could find.

The problem is that, in the current Republican party, "the most extreme position I can find" is the official position of those in power in the party right now. These are the positions of Ted Cruz. These are the positions of Donald Trump. Donald Trump is the presumptive Republican nominee.

And yes, moderate Republicans are running away from them. Where are those moderate Republicans now? Retired from politics, or recently voted out of office.

There are absolutely Republicans who don't endorse these rungs. The Republicans who do refer to them as "RINOS" (Republicans in Name Only). Most of those who don't endorse these views were recently voted out for not being conservative enough, and replaced with Tea Party candidates and others. Those are the people in power RIGHT NOW in the House, passing crazy bills every day. The only thing holding them in check, for the most part, is not having absolute control of the Senate, and Obama's veto pen.

Don't get me wrong. There are people on the left who have absolutely crazy ideas as well. The difference between the left and the right, currently, is that the "crazy left wingers" are marginalized. As of right now, the "crazy right wingers" are in charge.

I get what you're saying. There are moderate Republicans who don't want to repeal the Affordable Care Act, or remove the public safety net, or make abortion illegal for everyone, or discriminate against LGBT people. These Republicans exist. But they are NOT running the Republican party right now.

Also, something the Media refuses to talk about with this whole Health Care mess. If you don't get health insurance, you have to pay a fee to the government if they can track you down, and it's pretty high. I know because my family faced this issue a couple of years ago. We ended up getting health insurance, but the price was insane. Also, lots of Republicans want what is called "open competition", which would force health insurance companies to compete beyond state lines and cause a reduction in prices. That's not terrible is it? Sure, it's not the free health care lots of people want, but it's a better option than we have. State boundaries are apart of the price issue. At least here in Georgia.

State boundaries are one issue, and there are certainly arguments to be made for multiple ways to provide affordable health insurance. I've said many times that the Affordable Health Care Act is not ideal by any means, but it has accomplished two things - enabling millions more Americans to get healthcare coverage, and enabling those with pre-existing conditions to get healthcare coverage.

The current Republican goal is "repeal". They have not offered a plan to replace the Affordable Care Act. They do not currently have one.

Bottom Line: There are diverse political positions within the party itself. The President doesn't have all the power. A Republican president who believes all of the radical viewpoints you listed would not be able to accomplish half of them.

You are absolutely correct. Except Republicans already current control the house. And Republicans currently have a majority in the Senate.

Due to gerrymandering, most Republican incumbents, even those with approval ratings below 10%, are "safe". They will not be voted out. It is almost certain that Republicans, after November, will continue to control the House, and may pick up seats in the Senate. Without someone to balance that out, they'll be able to accomplish quite a bit.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 12:55:05 AM by tebakutis »

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #606 on: May 06, 2016, 01:29:36 AM »
Adding some reading material, so you know I'm not just making the Republican positions on these issues up. And remember, I accept that there are moderate Republicans who disagree with these stances. Those Republicans are not running today's Republican party. The most extreme view IS the default of those in power.

On Pre-Existing Conditions
http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20160428/BLOG/160429901

On overturning the Affordable Care Act:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/03/21/the-house-has-voted-54-times-in-four-years-on-obamacare-heres-the-full-list/
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/06/politics/house-obamacare-repeal-planned-parenthood/
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/02/why-republicans-are-voting-to-repeal-obamacare-again/385105/
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/healthcare-reform

(Note: The only thing that has stopped the Affordable Care Act from being repealed is Obama's veto pin. The Republicans currently in power have already voted to repeal it, successfully, over 50 times.

On eliminating the public safety net:
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2016/03/22/GOP-Candidates-Would-Sacrifice-Social-Safety-Net-Tax-Cuts
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-budget-idUSKBN0MN0LR20150327
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/17/republican-budgets-whack-_n_6885122.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-04-01/ryan-unveils-republicans-budget-plan-looking-to-election

On making abortion illegal:
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/17/republicans-seek-to-put-abortion-on-the-front-burner-in-2016
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/gop-candidates-ban-abortion-no-exceptions
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2015/10/26/on-abortion-the-gop-presidential-candidates-are-even-more-extreme-than-their-constituents/
http://time.com/4211007/republican-debate-abortion-rape-new-hampshire/  (I should call out Christie for NOT being in favor of banning abortion - guess who's not running for president anymore)

On Supreme Court Nominees:
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/02/19/3750758/what-if-donald-trump-wins-inside-his-plans-for-the-supreme-court/

On deporting illegal immigrants:
http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-deportation-plan-2015-11
http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/boom-donald-trump-announces-5-point-plan-about-illegal-immigration/
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/immigration-reform
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-deportations-idUSKCN0XW0TP

On Voter ID Laws and Disenfranchisement
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/06/politics/glenn-grothman-voter-id-wisconsin-republican-2016/
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/05/politics/justice-department-investigation-arizona/index.html
http://www.mediaite.com/online/study-shows-that-republican-backed-voter-id-laws-are-really-working-for-them/
http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-14-634

On making gay marriage illegal again:
http://www.hrc.org/2016RepublicanFacts/donald-trump
https://www.tedcruz.org/issues/life-marriage-and-family/
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/25/politics/national-organization-marriage-same-sex-marriage/
https://ballotpedia.org/2016_presidential_candidates_on_gay_rights
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-gaymarriage-idUSKCN0PI2NE20150708
https://usatelections.wordpress.com/2015/06/26/presidential-candidates-reaction-gay-marriage/

On opposing LGBT rights:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/06/18/why-does-the-republican-party-still-oppose-lgbt-rights/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/06/11/north-carolina-okays-opt-out-for-officials-who-oppose-same-sex-marriage/?tid=a_inl
http://www.freep.com/story/news/politics/2015/06/11/snyder-michigan-same-sex-adoption-religious/71062938/

On climate change being a hoax:
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/265895292191248385?lang=en
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jan/24/bernie-s/yes-donald-trump-really-did-tweet-climate-change-h/
http://billmoyers.com/2015/02/03/congress-climate-deniers/
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/where-the-2016-republican-candidates-stand-on-climate-change/ (again, Christie stands out as saying climate change is real, and is human-caused. He's not running. Guess who still is ;P)

Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #607 on: May 06, 2016, 06:13:53 AM »
Not a huge amount of interesting things happening in the local elections here. Suppose the biggest news is that the Tories seem set to push Labour into being the third party in Scotland which is arguably quite the symbolic blow.

That, or the fact nothing much is happening.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #608 on: May 06, 2016, 09:54:10 AM »
Quote
That, or the fact nothing much is happening.

Except voters turned away from Barnet polling stations.

BeardKing

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #609 on: May 06, 2016, 04:21:09 PM »
I love reading your posts, @tebakutis. They're always truthful and informative. Thank you. :)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 04:47:45 PM by BeardKing »

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #610 on: May 06, 2016, 04:57:40 PM »
Dont follow Twiptter but saw this and felt it had to be shared

    Shouldn't #TedCruz have been forced to carry his unviable campaign to term?

    — Full Frontal (@FullFrontalSamB) May 4, 2016

   

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #611 on: May 17, 2016, 10:12:50 PM »
Quote of the week from my stepdad.

"This isn't my America anymore. I'm ready to burn the flag. This country's now made up of fools, faggets, and foreigners."

Oh, what a lovely day...

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #612 on: May 17, 2016, 10:40:06 PM »
Quote of the week from my stepdad.

"This isn't my America anymore. I'm ready to burn the flag. This country's now made up of fools, faggets, and foreigners."

Oh, what a lovely day...

heh.  that's quite the alliterative statement.

did you know 1-in-14 people think the moon landing was fake?  i mean, at those odds, we all probably know quite a few of those people.  people believe crazy stuff.  especially if it's played on repeat on fox news.

/shrug

i find the best remedy for that kind of stuff is travel.

well.

travel and math.

Offline Arry

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #613 on: May 18, 2016, 01:16:00 AM »
Quote of the week from my stepdad.

"This isn't my America anymore. I'm ready to burn the flag. This country's now made up of fools, faggets, and foreigners."

Oh, what a lovely day...

*sigh* At least you can look on the bright side that you don't share his views on this. You might not be able to change him, but at least your not like him.

Probably easier for me to say this not having to hear that from someone in my own house.
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Online xiagan

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Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #614 on: May 18, 2016, 02:05:41 PM »
The moon landing was an inside job. Bush did it.
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)