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Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 267342 times)

Offline Hedin

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #570 on: April 22, 2016, 01:17:06 PM »
Potential rant incoming!
So, I heard something Trump said about agreeing with allowing anyone of any gender to enter any bathroom, no operation required. While I don't agree with this because of all the problems it may cause in schools(especially middle and high schools) and could increase the opportunity for sexual assault in public bathrooms, that's not what I'm here to discuss.

Alright, I have to wade in here on this.  There is no readily available evidence that allowing transgender people to use whatever bathroom they identify with leads to sexual assault in public bathrooms.  All that is is a scare tactic based on no real fact.  If you're the person who wants to commit a sexual assault in the bathroom you're going to do that regardless.  A few months ago I wasn't pay attention in an airport and accidentally walked into a women's restroom.  As soon as I saw there were no urinals I looked down and got out of there and I don't think anyone actually noticed.  I didn't have to dress like a woman to get in there and there wasn't anything else to prevent me from going in either. 

And yes, middle school and high school kids can be huge assholes when it comes to bullying someone different than them.  They are also tend to be a lot more open and fine with issues like this than the adult population. 
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 01:25:17 PM by Hedin »

Offline Arry

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #571 on: April 22, 2016, 01:27:03 PM »
Potential rant incoming!
So, I heard something Trump said about agreeing with allowing anyone of any gender to enter any bathroom, no operation required. While I don't agree with this because of all the problems it may cause in schools(especially middle and high schools) and could increase the opportunity for sexual assault in public bathrooms, that's not what I'm here to discuss.

OK, I live in NC, which has that horrendous law that has triggered so much attention (it does more than just require people to use the bathrooms assigned to the gender on their birth certificates, it actually is written to nullify any local laws that provide non-discrimination support for people based on sexual orientation or gender identity.  It's a huge step backward. The bathroom aspect of it has had the most attention though (for the record, this bill was passed as something like 2AM in the morning in a special session with no advanced notice, so we had no way of knowing about it until after it was passed)

Anyway. What I seriously do no understand about the "bathroom safety" argument in support of this bill is why would a sexual predator be fine with physically assaulting someone, ignoring the laws and common sense that should prevent that, but see this "bathroom law" and think... OH NO! I can't go into that bathroom to find a victim, because there's a law against it. I shall have to find my victim somewhere else. Like Hedin said, there's no bathroom police to keep people out. Not even in NC.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #572 on: April 22, 2016, 01:36:56 PM »
OK the reason the travel warning was given is because it gives businesses the right to refuse to serve LBGT customers on religious grounds.

The bathroom thing has become an obsession of the press but the law is more far reaching than that.
I must admit I laughed at the idea of someone born a woman but living as a man and having a functional penis being forced to use the ladies because a bunch of prissy right wing conservatives deemed it the godly thing to do.

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #573 on: April 22, 2016, 02:46:05 PM »
since my entire family is of the hard-liner, right-wing flavor, usually my quiver in this conversation contains two arrows:

arrow one:  so, a "girls only" sign will keep out a bad guy with a penis?  just like a "no guns" sign keeps out a bad guy with a gun?

arrow two:  sweet!  so that means it's legally required for this guy to be in there, with your 12 year-old daughter, peeing in the stall next to her.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel

arguing with backwards people requires simple, cognitive-dissonance-inducing, sound-byte-friendly questions.  you can't make complex, grey-filled arguments.

"i don't mind gay people.  i just don't approve of their lifestyle because being gay is a choice."

"so, do gay animals choose to be gay?"

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #574 on: April 22, 2016, 03:47:38 PM »
Just to add further confusion. The only transgender people i have met was a friend of friends who was born male and felt female but was attracted to women and a guy I worked with who went through the preparation for a sex change (dressing as a woman and hormone therapy) while working.

This is on the BBC today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36092431


Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #575 on: April 22, 2016, 06:23:55 PM »
Just to add further confusion. The only transgender people i have met was a friend of friends who was born male and felt female but was attracted to women and a guy I worked with who went through the preparation for a sex change (dressing as a woman and hormone therapy) while working.

yeah.  i have two friends that i know of -- one male->female, the other female->male -- who are trans.  neither would you guess.  both married.  the female to her same wife.  the male, to his non-gay wife.

the world is so much smaller these days, which only makes it feel more complicated than it used to be.

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #576 on: April 22, 2016, 08:42:29 PM »
I don't think the argument is that it would stop it, I just think it makes it easier.

For example, in schools, I've heard talks about having bathrooms with no gender assigned to them. So basically guys shower with girls. Yeah, because that's a good idea. That's not what I hear about most though.

Let's say I want to go into the girl's bathroom, but I don't want to get in trouble. First solution, I'm blind, so I can just stumble in there. No big deal. But let's say I don't want to make people think of blind people in a more depressing way than they actually do. Well, what if I decided to wake up in the morning, dress  like a girl, say I'm a transgender, and walk in the bathroom? Now I have access, and since no one can prove that I'm not a transgender because, well, there is no way to prove it...

By forcing people to go in the bathroom of their same biological gender, it helps eliminate the problem. Now, if I'm a predator and I get caught in there, I can get in serious trouble. But without it, I could cast glances all day long and look at the girls, and no one could say anything to me about it since I have the right to be there. If they approached me, I could just say that It's a simple misunderstanding, and that I wasn't minding my own business. It's my word against theirs.

Now, once someone has had the surgery, by all means go ahead. You've changed your gender biologically. The chances of sexual assault have decreased. But otherwise, what's to stop people?

I get the argument. A predator will do what he's going to do regardless. But now, we're giving them a legal way to do it. As any good rule breaker knows, you only outright defy the law if there's no way to do what you want legally.

I seriously didn't want to talk about this, because I tend to make people angry. But I felt I should at the very least write something to give a perspective from the group who believes what I do. Now, feel free to tear apart each and every sentence, dispute them, and post links. I will comment if there's anything more I can contribute, but I'm not near as resourceful as the rest of you.

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #577 on: April 22, 2016, 09:56:59 PM »
I'll take a run at it. You never know when a fact might help dispel misperceptions or misinformation!

For example, in schools, I've heard talks about having bathrooms with no gender assigned to them. So basically guys shower with girls. Yeah, because that's a good idea. That's not what I hear about most though.

Just to clarify, the typical "Unisex" bathroom is like the bathroom in your home. There is one toilet (the sit down kind) and no urinal. There is a lock on the door of this Unisex bathroom.

If you need to use this Unisex bathroom, whether you are male or female, you enter (alone) and lock the door. No one else is in there with you, as there is only one toilet. No one else is coming in there with you, because if you are in there, you have locked the door.

Unisex bathrooms are also nice for parents with small children (too young to go to the bathroom alone) where those small children are the opposite sex of the parent who happens to be with them that day.

I'm not aware of any Unisex bathrooms with multiple toilets. And no one is arguing for Unisex showers in public schools. That's another of those made up Facebook memes from your average nutter, like how we faked the moon landing, and President Obama secretly being a Muslim or not being eligible to be president.

Do not believe every Facebook meme your crazy right-wing uncle reposts. In fact ... probably don't believe any of them. :0

Quote
By forcing people to go in the bathroom of their same biological gender, it helps eliminate the problem. Now, if I'm a predator and I get caught in there, I can get in serious trouble. But without it, I could cast glances all day long and look at the girls, and no one could say anything to me about it since I have the right to be there. If they approached me, I could just say that It's a simple misunderstanding, and that I wasn't minding my own business. It's my word against theirs.

If you are a predator in a restroom, you can already get in serious trouble. The law changes nothing. But it doesn't need too, because the problem the law purports to stop doesn't actually exist.

I don't know if you know any transgender people. If you don't, I'd recommend you get to know one. If you do, I'd like you to ask him or her about the process of transitioning.

Ask them about the year or more of therapy they must complete before the doctor approves the hormone therapy.

Ask them about that hormone therapy, and how long it takes, and how uncomfortable it is.

Ask them about how their parents reacted. Did their parents disown them? Are they still on speaking terms?

Ask them how their friends reacted. Did their friends abandon them? Do they still have all the friends they had before they started transitioning?

Ask them what it's like to date. How does the average person react (male or female) when the transgender person tells them they used to be the opposite sex? How often do they just say "oh, no worries!" and how often do they say "Oh! Well, I'd prefer not to date you then. But thanks for being honest!"

Ask them how most of the right-wing bigots who made this law will treat them. Any chance those bigots will try to take their rights away? (Spoiler: Governments across the US are trying to do that EVERY DAY).

Ask them if they're afraid people will assault or murder them because they are transgender.

When you're done asking them all of these things, ask them "Hey, is it worth going through all that bullshit just so you'll have the opportunity to stare at another person's junk in a public restroom? What? It isn't? Oh. So I guess that's not a problem, then. Good to know!"

This problem only exists in the minds of bigoted right-wing idiots in North Carolina.

Quote
Now, once someone has had the surgery, by all means go ahead. You've changed your gender biologically. The chances of sexual assault have decreased. But otherwise, what's to stop people?

But here's where this law gets even more fun. What you just wrote is not what the law allows. Have you completed sexual assignment surgery? We don't care! Only your birth certificate matters.

You MUST use the bathroom associated with your birth certificate, period. That's what this law says.

If you HAVE completed your sexual assignment surgery, and you DO have a penis, and you look like a man, you are REQUIRED (by this law) to enter the woman's restroom. If you now have a vagina, but your birth certificate says "Male", you are required to use the men's restroom. I'm sure that won't alarm or confuse anyone in those restrooms.

You must, according to the NC law, always use the bathroom assigned to the gender on your birth certificate. Because North Carolina government officials are bigoted idiots.

Quote
I get the argument. A predator will do what he's going to do regardless. But now, we're giving them a legal way to do it. As any good rule breaker knows, you only outright defy the law if there's no way to do what you want legally.

This is incorrect. The theoretical predators who want to stare at or assault people in restrooms will do so regardless of laws or signs on doors. Again, this law changes nothing.

So, moving on!

We've established above the law doesn't solve the problems it claims to solve, and in fact, the problems it claims to solve, for the most part, don't even exist. Transgender people do not go through the difficulty of changing their sex because they want to stare at people's junk.

But hey, the law doesn't have any effect, right? So what's the harm of passing it?

Here's some "fun" links!

First, there are no reported cases of transgender people attacking others in bathrooms.
http://mic.com/articles/114066/statistics-show-exactly-how-many-times-trans-people-have-attacked-you-in-bathrooms#.xyUs2YNpp

Second, trans people experience violence at a disproportionate rate to non-trans people!
http://www.avp.org/storage/documents/ncavp_transhvfactsheet.pdf

So, that's great. To restate:

There are no documented cases of a transgender woman assaulting a man in a public restroom, or elsewhere. There are a LARGE number of reported cases of transgender people being assaulted, primarily physical assaults (simply beating the shit out of them or in some cases, killing them). It happens in restrooms. It happens everywhere.

So yeah, here's a great idea. Let's force transgender women into men's restrooms. I'm sure that won't cause any confusion or problems, or put them in any danger at all.

This NC law says that if you are a transgender woman, and you have a vagina, and you are dressed like a woman, and you look like a woman, you must enter the men's restroom. Because your birth certificate lists you as a man.

Some men may simply be shocked when you enter the restroom with them. Other men may simply be angry. Angry people sometimes lash out. Transgender people already face the threat of being attacked by intolerant people wherever they go, and wherever their transgender status is known, because they are transgender, and some people believe this is a reason to assault or kill them. This bill makes that worse.

But it gets even better! Guess what? Police in NC have no idea how to enforce this law. That little nugget of wisdom wasn't included in the law, so everyone's scrambling to figure it out.

Do you put a police officer at the door to every restroom? Okay, we can't do that, because we don't have the budget or that number of officers, but hey, let's go to right-wing crazy town and say we do.

Great, so we've got a police officer standing at every restroom. So, what now?

If a transgender woman looks like a woman, what is the procedure for verifying their identity before they are allowed into the woman's restroom? Do women need to carry their birth certificates in their purse, and present them? Or do they simply need to expose themselves to the officer, so the police officer can verify they have a vagina?

But wait! What if the transgender woman has completed her surgery? She has a vagina! So how does the police officer, upon inspecting the vagina, determine if the vagina existed when the woman was born? Is it a *real* vagina? (Note: I know that's insulting and I'm using it to make a point).

How about on the other side? Do men need to whip out their penis before using the men's restroom? How does the police officer know the status of that penis? The stupidity grows and grows!

But wait. That's not all. Because the bathroom portion of the law, which is what has made the most news and what we're discussing, which is stupid, isn't even the BIGGEST part of the law. It's a minor detail!

What is the actual law? The actual law overrides the ability of any employer or public entity in North Carolina from making laws that provide equal rights for LGBT people. It also prevents employers from being punished for firing LGBT people because they are LGBT (they find it "morally unacceptable", and the law protects their ability to fire people for that reason). So the law basically provides a government sanctioned way to discriminate against LGBT people without repercussion.

Now, replace everywhere I've said transgender with "black" or "latino" and tell me how you'd feel about the law, then. Not so good, huh?

North Carolina's senators passed a law to fix a problem that doesn't exist and created many problems that now do exist, thanks to the law they passed.

These right-wing senators have this irrational, insane worry that people undergo long and painful hormone therapy, months or years of therapy, loss of family members, discrimination, and the threat of ASSAULT OR DEATH solely for the purpose of having an officially sanctioned opportunity to stare at a person's junk in a public restroom.

These people are idiots.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 10:00:29 PM by tebakutis »

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #578 on: April 22, 2016, 10:00:40 PM »
Quote
For example, in schools, I've heard talks about having bathrooms with no gender assigned to them. So basically guys shower with girls. Yeah, because that's a good idea. That's not what I hear about most though.


unisex toilets tend to be stalls and no urinals so you have privacy.
I have not heard of this suggested for schools. i have used unisex communal showers and changing rooms.
It is strange for about 3 days then just seems normal. It wasn't at all erotic or arousing.
The only noted lechery was by the English girls who always seemed to shower as a group at the same time as a Norwegian blacksmith and it annoyed his wife.
The attitude was there is a big difference between nudity and sex. I think that is a good thing I am not sure it is something that can or should be imposed on children though.

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #579 on: April 22, 2016, 10:20:47 PM »
Well, what if I decided to wake up in the morning, dress  like a girl, say I'm a transgender, and walk in the bathroom?

that's just not realistic.

for example, back in my day, you'd get your ass kicked, and would probably spend most of the in-between-class-time stuffed in a locker.  or upside down in a garbage can.  every day from then on.

these kind of things tend to work themselves out.  dudes who are actually chicks, nobody cares about because it's known and that's how they are.  and they're probably getting harassed already.  if you're a dude who wants to be a chick that day just for the perve of it?  again, people know.  oh, and you're probably in for a football-team-laden beatdown once word gets out.

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #580 on: April 22, 2016, 10:28:14 PM »
These right-wing senators have this irrational, insane worry that people undergo long and painful hormone therapy, months or years of therapy, loss of family members, discrimination, and the threat of ASSAULT OR DEATH solely for the purpose of having an officially sanctioned opportunity to stare at a person's junk in a public restroom.

These people are idiots.
Oh no, no no no no no. Oh my gosh! That is not what I was trying to say at all! I know personally my family doesn't feel this way, nor do I. In fact, I can't name a single person who believes the same thing I do that people become transgender to stare at people. Holy hell, I'm sooo sorry it came across that way.

Let me try again. I'm not saying that transgenders try to stare at people. I'm saying that a creep could pretend to be a transgender person in order to gain access to the restroom. Without the surgery, it wouldn't be hard to fake it. I disagree with states like North Carolina not allowing the surgery to be taken into account.

Wow. I know I tend to make people angry, but seriously, that's not what I was trying to say at all. I'm seriously sorry for anyone, transgender or otherwise, who thought I meant that transgenders were creeps and child molesters. That is not at all the message that me nor the majority of my family is trying to get across. I can't speak for the others, but I highly doubt the majority of my conservative friends feel this way either. In fact, I've never heard it stated like the way you put it. I understand people who lean right are generalized as racists and greedy and terrible people, but honestly, we care too.

Seriously, I'm in shock and feel terrible. I could barely finish reading the post when I realized that's what you thought. It's just shocking. I'm sure people out there believe what you're saying, but... Man, I have no words.

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #581 on: April 23, 2016, 12:53:35 AM »
Wow. I know I tend to make people angry, but seriously, that's not what I was trying to say at all. I'm seriously sorry for anyone, transgender or otherwise, who thought I meant that transgenders were creeps and child molesters. That is not at all the message that me nor the majority of my family is trying to get across. I can't speak for the others, but I highly doubt the majority of my conservative friends feel this way either. In fact, I've never heard it stated like the way you put it. I understand people who lean right are generalized as racists and greedy and terrible people, but honestly, we care too.

Seriously, I'm in shock and feel terrible. I could barely finish reading the post when I realized that's what you thought. It's just shocking. I'm sure people out there believe what you're saying, but... Man, I have no words.

Thank you for saying that. It really is great to hear. However, I would like to comment on part of what made me write such a long post, and led to this "misunderstanding" as you put it. It's an age old political practice sometimes referred to as "dog whistling".

This has long been used politicians for centuries who want to gain the support of people with less mainstream opinions, while maintaining plausible deniability with those who would speak up against them. It's asking questions like "Would you like to live in a neighborhood with black people?" On the surface, it seems like a simple question. But when said by certain people, in certain contexts, what the person is really asking is "Would you like to live in a neighborhood with criminals?" Because all black people are criminals, obviously.

Dogwhistling is part of the argument being made by some (not all, granted, but a good number) of people who pass bills like the NC bill. The thing they claim is happening (a "creepy" straight man puts on a dress, claims to be a transgender woman, and does that solely to gawk at ladies in the bathroom) is something that never actually happens. It never has. But by making that (spurious) claim, they trivialize transgender people and their experiences, and show their constituents who oppose transgenders that they are "on their side".

Saying a man will just wake up one day and pretend to be transgender to gawk at boobs implies coming out as transgender is a casual decision. A guy will just say "I'm a girl" one day, people claim, because he thinks it's a great way to get into the women's locker room, ignoring the massive personal implications of making such a statement. They're flat out stating that people who identify as transgender *may* be doing so simply out of a sense of sexual perversion, or for some ulterior motive, rather than a fundamentally distressing feeling they are in the wrong body.

Moreover, you can also imply other things with dog whistling. For instance, the statement only a "creep" would want to go into a women's bathroom, if they were born a man. It's a nice way to imply that transgender people are creeps, and again, this is never officially said - not publically, at least. It's a "wink wink, nudge nudge" sort of thing. The people who agree with you "hear" it.

That's where the term dog-whistling comes from. When you blow a dog whistle, only dogs can hear it. So by using coded language or making statements that have obvious distressing implications, you can tell other likeminded people "Hey, I'm on your side, racist or homophobe!" without, in your view, being called to account for saying those things. And if someone calls you on it, you just say "Oh, that's not what I meant at all!"

Now, I'll be clear in that, based on what you've said, I don't think you're doing this now, nor do you believe transgender people are perverse, which again, I'm glad you've come out and said. But the way your post was written, it could imply that, and as these arguments have been made by a number of NC politicians, they *are* implying these things. Though honestly, that's the least distressing part of the NC bill.

And, I don't know if it will reassure you or the other people who are worried about the case you've mentioned (a man being able to claim to be a woman, simply for the purpose of gawking at boobs), but ... that isn't happening. It's a problem that doesn't exist. So, there's no need to be worried about it. :)

One addendum: Should also be clear that politicians from all parties have been known to do this, for different purposes. It's not a right or left wing thing.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 01:00:55 AM by tebakutis »

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #582 on: April 23, 2016, 01:15:47 AM »
And, I don't know if it will reassure you or the other people who are worried about the case you've mentioned (a man being able to claim to be a woman, simply for the purpose of gawking at boobs), but ... that isn't happening. It's a problem that doesn't exist. So, there's no need to be worried about it. :)

One addendum: Should also be clear that politicians from all parties have been known to do this, for different purposes. It's not a right or left wing thing.
At the moment, I don't see a need for a guy to put on a dress and walk into a bathroom to look at girls. There's no transgender protection for him at the moment. If it becomes legal though, that's one of the problems we could face. How can there be any problems for a situation that hasn't been made widely legal yet?

Offline Rukaio_Alter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #583 on: April 23, 2016, 02:49:24 AM »
And, I don't know if it will reassure you or the other people who are worried about the case you've mentioned (a man being able to claim to be a woman, simply for the purpose of gawking at boobs), but ... that isn't happening. It's a problem that doesn't exist. So, there's no need to be worried about it. :)

One addendum: Should also be clear that politicians from all parties have been known to do this, for different purposes. It's not a right or left wing thing.
At the moment, I don't see a need for a guy to put on a dress and walk into a bathroom to look at girls. There's no transgender protection for him at the moment. If it becomes legal though, that's one of the problems we could face. How can there be any problems for a situation that hasn't been made widely legal yet?
But... a guy putting on a dress + going into a bathroom to look at girls would still be illegal. There's a lot more to being transgender than simply putting on different clothes.
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Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #584 on: April 23, 2016, 04:41:48 AM »
Warning: Lady Ty Rant

I usually avoid contributing to this thread because I have very strong political views and do not hesitate to express and discuss them elsewhere, but do want to support and endorse what @tebakutis wrote about dog whistling.  It is absolutely correct and important that you should be fully aware of that and other political dirty tricks that are practised.

Examples like pork barrelling during an election campaign to offer advantage to a local community such as a new hospital -having already quietly guaranteed big contract with a building firm in exchange for party donation;  astroturf organisations demonstrating and lobbying, for/against a law while purporting to represent the interests of some disadvantaged group, but in reality hurriedly formed and put together by non-representative group who will financially benefit.

Need to comment also on what @ultamentkiller wrote here, which made me sorry and very sad

Quote
........ I understand people who lean right are generalized as racists and greedy and terrible people, but honestly, we care too.


Of course, most right leaning people are good, kind, honourable and decent. We all recognise and acknowledge that, a generalisation is often based on extreme examples and not at all fair.  There will be those on the right  who probably disagree with some of the policy of their chosen party and may even object or change their vote. There are others equally good and decent who may disagree but remain steadfast to the original basic principles of that party and feel obliged to continue to support them. Unfortunately many also  trust their politician/party of choice to do the right thing and do not question who has background control.

Over the last twenty odd years the main democratic conservative or liberal style parties in UK, US, Australia and Europe have been infiltrated by ultra-extreme groups who have gradually caused those basic principles to be altered and corrupted to their advantage. This way they have gained power, control and wealth. These groups are composed of and backed by various fundamental extremists, restrictive religious organisations, or big business with huge financial interests to protect and promote.

On the left side of politics it can also be argued that the unions have too much power and influence and can hold a government to ransom through industrial action, such as postal workers at Christmas or airports in tourist season or even nurses and doctors on occasion. They are also often guilty of misusing funds and corrupt pre-selection practices.

Democracy depends on the right to have different opinions and the freedom to express them and this is not a Left/Right discussion.  I truly beg you all to look very carefully at all the statements, policies and election promises that you hear and laws that are proposed in the future and try to play devil's advocate, as well as research exactly whose interests they are designed to benefit and what the long-reaching or wider effects may be.

No weeping heart here and admit to strong left affiliation, but I try to be fair. I have experience of dealing with policy and legislation plus seeing politicians and their behaviour close up.  I am well aware of practical problems and difficulties, but am very concerned about the ever widening gap between rich and poor, and the obscene contrast of the two extremes.

In a modern world of the twenty-first century, with all skills, resources and technologies at our disposal to improve living standards everywhere, this inequality is wrong and dangerous. Please be careful who you put in power whether at local, state or national level and even if you do not have compulsory voting, please don't waste the one you have by just not voting.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 06:19:00 AM by Lady_Ty »
“This is the problem with even lesser demons. They come to your doorstep in velvet coats and polished shoes. They tip their hats and smile and demonstrate good table manners. They never show you their tails.” 
Leigh Bardugo, The Language of Thorns: Midnight Tales and Dangerous Magic