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Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 267395 times)

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #495 on: March 16, 2016, 01:39:35 PM »
Much as I dislike all the major candidates for an equal number of reasons (Gary Johnson 2016!), Kasich needs to drop out so it can be Cruz v. Trump to the end, because Cruz is obviously the lesser of the two evils and actually has a shot at beating the #TrumpTrain.

The more and more I watch this election cycle, the more I'm beginning to hate winner-take-all systems through a single-member district representation.
In what way is Cruz the lesser of two evils? He's just as fuck headed and disturbing as Trump, his pastor literally called for the execution of gay people. Cruz is just as for throwing out muslims and anyone foreign as Trump is. He is not lesser, they are the same in two different haircuts.

Honestly, Cruz scares me as much as Trump, but for different reasons, because while Trump is a shameless opportunist who I can see (if elected) possibly moderating his catastrophic positions if someone throws enough logic his way, Cruz is a true believer. Someone who truly believes our world is going to end when he's Raptured (leaving all of us non-Evangelicals to suffer and die) is not the best leader to to solve our problems or prepare for the future. Why fix anything when the world's going to end in a few decades?

Cruz also (on the record) opposes civil rights for LGBT people and is an active science denier, claiming (as many of the more extreme members of the Republican party do) that climate change is a hoax. He's clearly said that he believes the US government should make law based on the literal words of the Bible and Christian principles (in particular, his brand of Christianity) which isn't exactly "separation of church and state". So yeah, not my ideal candidate by any means.

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #496 on: March 16, 2016, 01:51:05 PM »
^ that is *so* scary :o
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #497 on: March 16, 2016, 02:45:36 PM »
The whole election has become some grotesque parody of what it is supposed to be. I imagine an Xfactor type competition replacing it at some point in the near future.

Offline Arry

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #498 on: March 16, 2016, 03:27:59 PM »
Much as I dislike all the major candidates for an equal number of reasons (Gary Johnson 2016!), Kasich needs to drop out so it can be Cruz v. Trump to the end, because Cruz is obviously the lesser of the two evils and actually has a shot at beating the #TrumpTrain.

The more and more I watch this election cycle, the more I'm beginning to hate winner-take-all systems through a single-member district representation.
In what way is Cruz the lesser of two evils? He's just as fuck headed and disturbing as Trump, his pastor literally called for the execution of gay people. Cruz is just as for throwing out muslims and anyone foreign as Trump is. He is not lesser, they are the same in two different haircuts.

Honestly, Cruz scares me as much as Trump, but for different reasons, because while Trump is a shameless opportunist who I can see (if elected) possibly moderating his catastrophic positions if someone throws enough logic his way, Cruz is a true believer. Someone who truly believes our world is going to end when he's Raptured (leaving all of us non-Evangelicals to suffer and die) is not the best leader to to solve our problems or prepare for the future. Why fix anything when the world's going to end in a few decades?

Cruz also (on the record) opposes civil rights for LGBT people and is an active science denier, claiming (as many of the more extreme members of the Republican party do) that climate change is a hoax. He's clearly said that he believes the US government should make law based on the literal words of the Bible and Christian principles (in particular, his brand of Christianity) which isn't exactly "separation of church and state". So yeah, not my ideal candidate by any means.

Yep, yep, yep. And what bothers me now is in polls, Sanders looks to have a much better chance of beating either in the election than Clinton. But looks like Clinton will likely take the nomination. Granted, this early one, these numbers can change drastically still. But, the larger a gap I see, the better I feel. I feel like with Trump running, he's stealing some focus from Cruz's shortcomings.  Sorry if that offends anyone, but I agree with the other points made here about Cruz.

(for those interested, you can play around with different head-to-head comparisons and see the current results here: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_sanders-5565.html)
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Offline Arry

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #500 on: March 16, 2016, 03:38:11 PM »
because, obviously, trump means democracy sucks.
*sigh*

If he is elected, he surely won't be an example of why its good.
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Offline Doctor_Chill

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #501 on: March 16, 2016, 04:10:50 PM »
Trust me, I hate Cruz for all the reasons outlined above. But Trump is a narcissistic asshole that flip-flops just as much as Hillary. At least Cruz is a principled asshole, and I can respect that compared to the rest.

Still doesn't mean I'm going to vote for him if it comes down to it.
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Offline Nighteyes

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #502 on: March 16, 2016, 05:05:35 PM »
Well Dubya was supposed to be so dumb and right wing that nuclear armaggeddon was supposed to happen. Then Obama was going to change the world. Well neither happened so I am beginning to wonder if it doesn't really matter who the president is, and that life will continue much the same.
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Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #503 on: March 16, 2016, 08:54:04 PM »

Honestly, Cruz scares me as much as Trump, but for different reasons, because while Trump is a shameless opportunist who I can see (if elected) possibly moderating his catastrophic positions if someone throws enough logic his way, Cruz is a true believer. Someone who truly believes our world is going to end when he's Raptured (leaving all of us non-Evangelicals to suffer and die) is not the best leader to to solve our problems or prepare for the future. Why fix anything when the world's going to end in a few decades?
So basically you're saying why should we elect any Christian? Because that's what the majority of the religion believes.
I can't cite examples so I could easily be wrong. But we've had plenty of true Christian presidents in the past who haven't jeopardized the lines between church and state, and have done their best to make changes to the country despite the impending rapture. And even if you don't believe the world will end in the way the Bible outlines, it has to end at some point. Humans won't make it millions of years. Does that change that we still try to do our best to prolong our existence? Not from where I stand.
Could be wrong here as well, but don't the majority of beliefs say that the world will end? Christianity, Islam, Judaism. And the big one outside of religion. Science. Although some argue that it might as well be one.
Whether it be a few decades or a few centuries, it doesn't matter. The world will end. Most people believe that.
Also, I think the government knows it's nearing it's end. America is slowly dying. We probably have a century or two left before we utterly fail and collapse. Judging by what I've seen, most laws made recently haven't fixed the problem, they've just delayed the inevitable. So no politician should be voted into office, because they clearly know that the country will fall and aren't willing to fix it.
If we went by this logic, we couldn't elect anyone.

Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #504 on: March 16, 2016, 09:17:52 PM »
Honestly, Cruz scares me as much as Trump, but for different reasons, because while Trump is a shameless opportunist who I can see (if elected) possibly moderating his catastrophic positions if someone throws enough logic his way, Cruz is a true believer. Someone who truly believes our world is going to end when he's Raptured (leaving all of us non-Evangelicals to suffer and die) is not the best leader to to solve our problems or prepare for the future. Why fix anything when the world's going to end in a few decades?
So basically you're saying why should we elect any Christian? Because that's what the majority of the religion believes.
I can't cite examples so I could easily be wrong. But we've had plenty of true Christian presidents in the past who haven't jeopardized the lines between church and state, and have done their best to make changes to the country despite the impending rapture. And even if you don't believe the world will end in the way the Bible outlines, it has to end at some point. Humans won't make it millions of years. Does that change that we still try to do our best to prolong our existence? Not from where I stand.
Could be wrong here as well, but don't the majority of beliefs say that the world will end? Christianity, Islam, Judaism. And the big one outside of religion. Science. Although some argue that it might as well be one.
Whether it be a few decades or a few centuries, it doesn't matter. The world will end. Most people believe that.
Also, I think the government knows it's nearing it's end. America is slowly dying. We probably have a century or two left before we utterly fail and collapse. Judging by what I've seen, most laws made recently haven't fixed the problem, they've just delayed the inevitable. So no politician should be voted into office, because they clearly know that the country will fall and aren't willing to fix it.
If we went by this logic, we couldn't elect anyone.


There's quite a big difference between the logic in tebakutis's post and the logic you use at the end of your post! Very impressive straw man construction.  :P

Most civilisations throughout history collapsed. Most were fundamentally more stable than our society - they actually lived within their means, an alien concept to the modern world - and they survived for a lot longer than ours has. But that doesn't mean modern civilisation will inevitably collapse.

Not all societies throughout history collapsed. Many, confronted with challenges that threatened to wipe them out, changed their ways and survived. We can analyse the past and learn from our mistakes, extrapolate the trends and aim towards a better world for the future.

There's a world of difference between someone who thinks that our current situation is fundamentally unstable and someone who believes that the whole world will end in a couple of decades.

The main thing that stops us from living within our means today? Cultural resistance to change. People assuming that they know best, that the way things have always been done is the way things should be done, even when all the evidence in the world points towards them being wrong.


Also, as an outsider looking in, I've always been under the distinct impression that your country has a very real problem when it comes to separation of church and state, so it surprises me that you say that's not the case!
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Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #505 on: March 16, 2016, 09:32:38 PM »

Honestly, Cruz scares me as much as Trump, but for different reasons, because while Trump is a shameless opportunist who I can see (if elected) possibly moderating his catastrophic positions if someone throws enough logic his way, Cruz is a true believer. Someone who truly believes our world is going to end when he's Raptured (leaving all of us non-Evangelicals to suffer and die) is not the best leader to to solve our problems or prepare for the future. Why fix anything when the world's going to end in a few decades?
So basically you're saying why should we elect any Christian? Because that's what the majority of the religion believes.

No, that's not my intent, and if it came across that way, I apologize. Evangelical Christians are one of many, many branches of Christianity, and, like all religions, they are welcome to worship as they wish - up until the point their personal religious beliefs cause harm to other people (this is true of any religion). Evangelicals are one of the few that believe that the world will *literally* end in the near future, complete with the Rapture, the rise of the Antichrist, and a number of other events (see the Left Behind books and movies for a good fictionalization of these beliefs).

The difference between Evangelicals and other branches (Catholics, Methodists, and so on) is that the majority of non-Evangelical Christians they don't share the literal belief that the world will end and, in some cases, are anxiously waiting for it to happen. My parents are Methodist, for example, and do not believe the world will literally end in the next 50 years. Some Christians believe every word in the Bible is literal truth, but that's not true of a number of them.

From a subjective viewpoint, I'm simply not comfortable with a person who firmly believes the world will soon end making decisions about where we want to move forward as a country for the next 5, 10, and 50 years.

Also, me saying "We can never elect a Christian" would be a rather short-sighted thing to say, since I believe every single president we've elected (yes, even Obama, despite the right-wing Facebook posts) is, in fact, a Christian. Every president I've voted for has been Christian. :)

The US has never, to my knowledge, elected an evangelical Christian, though I believe Reagan was close. If you're curious, here's a breakdown of the various branches of Christianity to which each president has belonged.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/12/almost-all-u-s-presidents-have-been-christians/

And I could be wrong on that - if there's an evangelical president I'm forgetting, I'd be curious who it was.

I can't cite examples so I could easily be wrong. But we've had plenty of true Christian presidents in the past who haven't jeopardized the lines between church and state, and have done their best to make changes to the country despite the impending rapture.

I agree with you 100%. My issue with Cruz is HE HAS SPECIFICALLY SAID he wants to base our government on Christian religious beliefs. :)  If he hadn't come out and said EXACTLY THAT, I wouldn't worry about him doing it.

http://www.religionnews.com/2016/01/31/cruz-religion-evangelical-religious-liberty/

And even if you don't believe the world will end in the way the Bible outlines, it has to end at some point. Humans won't make it millions of years. Does that change that we still try to do our best to prolong our existence? Not from where I stand.

I wish many conservatives (especially those who continue to deny climate change, and actively oppose any efforts to curb it) believed what you just said. Cruz has been very vocal in his science denial. He's not a President that would take any action to curb climate change - in fact, he denies it exists and would actively work to STOP us from doing anything about it. Recall the articles I posted about the Navy and Pentagon's specific requests to prepare for climate change, and the Republican senate forbidding them from doing so. Cruz is one of the senators who blocked that action.

Could be wrong here as well, but don't the majority of beliefs say that the world will end? Christianity, Islam, Judaism. And the big one outside of religion. Science. Although some argue that it might as well be one.
Whether it be a few decades or a few centuries, it doesn't matter. The world will end. Most people believe that.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, but I agree it's debatable. Ultimately, going back to what I said earlier, I believe in freedom of religion, up and until the point your religious beliefs cause other people harm. Actively blocking us from halting a process that is going to radically change our planet (when my granddaughter is in her 30s, much of Florida may be underwater) is causing harm. If your religious or personal beliefs mean that you are going to actively attempt to harm our country (as in my example of opposing any work to slow climate change) that is a problem.

Also, I think the government knows it's nearing it's end. America is slowly dying. We probably have a century or two left before we utterly fail and collapse. Judging by what I've seen, most laws made recently haven't fixed the problem, they've just delayed the inevitable. So no politician should be voted into office, because they clearly know that the country will fall and aren't willing to fix it.

If we went by this logic, we couldn't elect anyone.

I wouldn't agree with this. The "America is slowly dying" is part of the Tea Party (and, to a less extent, right-wing) narrative of the past 7 years, certainly, but much of that has been in the service of trying to get people to vote a Republican into office. Ultimately, there are candidates (such as both Hillary and Bernie) who have directly said they want to take action on climate change, continue to support civil rights for LGBT people, continue the economic policies that have allowed us to recover from the past 8 years (guess what ... the economy HAS turned around) and, in general, have shown themselves to be intelligent and rational, even if I don't agree with all their views.

Also, Hillary and Bernie Sanders are both "Christian" and I would vote for either of them. Because they (unlike Cruz) have NOT told me that they are going to allow their religion to shape our government.

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #506 on: March 16, 2016, 10:00:43 PM »
Also, I think the government knows it's nearing it's end. America is slowly dying. We probably have a century or two left before we utterly fail and collapse. Judging by what I've seen, most laws made recently haven't fixed the problem, they've just delayed the inevitable. So no politician should be voted into office, because they clearly know that the country will fall and aren't willing to fix it.

If we went by this logic, we couldn't elect anyone.

I wouldn't agree with this. The "America is slowly dying" is part of the Tea Party (and, to a less extent, right-wing) narrative of the past 7 years, certainly, but much of that has been in the service of trying to get people to vote a Republican into office. Ultimately, there are candidates (such as both Hillary and Bernie) who have directly said they want to take action on climate change, continue to support civil rights for LGBT people, continue the economic policies that have allowed us to recover from the past 8 years (guess what ... the economy HAS turned around) and, in general, have shown themselves to be intelligent and rational, even if I don't agree with all their views.

Also, Hillary and Bernie Sanders are both "Christian" and I would vote for either of them. Because they (unlike Cruz) have NOT told me that they are going to allow their religion to shape our government.
The arguments I've heard for this that make me believe we're ultimately doomed.
Big one: Our debt. Eighteen trillion? I read an article from an economist a while back that said no matter what we do there's no paying it off. How can we last when when we have no money, and no way of paying off what we owe?
Big Two: Forget politics. Society. With everything I've seen in my limited existence, I have no idea how we'll move forward with a society this stupid. It scares the hell out of me that my generation is expected to run this country. Most of us can't even count change back at the cash register without looking at the computer screen. Most people in my math class can't do a simple multiplication problem without their calculator. Most of the population doesn't even read an entire book a year. Most people aren't aware of what's happening in the world without the mainstream media telling them what to think. And so on and so forth. It's sad, it's depressing, and it is what will doom us.

Offline Rukaio_Alter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #507 on: March 16, 2016, 10:29:35 PM »
The arguments I've heard for this that make me believe we're ultimately doomed.
Big one: Our debt. Eighteen trillion? I read an article from an economist a while back that said no matter what we do there's no paying it off. How can we last when when we have no money, and no way of paying off what we owe?
National debt is one of those issues that everyone freaks out about when, in actuality, it's really nothing to worry about. Pretty much every country in the world has debt and, except in very rare occasions, it barely ever gets called in. And America in particular has no need to worry since nobody wants to call in the debt because almost every country in the world has some stake in the American economy and would lose money were it to collapse. Plus, a lot of countries owe debt to America so they don't want to start a cycle of debt calling.

Big Two: Forget politics. Society. With everything I've seen in my limited existence, I have no idea how we'll move forward with a society this stupid. It scares the hell out of me that my generation is expected to run this country. Most of us can't even count change back at the cash register without looking at the computer screen. Most people in my math class can't do a simple multiplication problem without their calculator. Most of the population doesn't even read an entire book a year. Most people aren't aware of what's happening in the world without the mainstream media telling them what to think. And so on and so forth. It's sad, it's depressing, and it is what will doom us.
200 years ago the vast majority of the population probably couldn't read at all, count (to any impressive degree) and the only way of learning about news was through a few newpapers or anything they heard on the grapevine. Believe me, modern day society, even with all its flaws, is a million times smarter and has access to more resources than compared to practically all of human history. We will be fine.

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Offline Mr.J

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #508 on: March 16, 2016, 11:05:46 PM »
Btw if Trump wins the election I will be spamming this thread with this gif.



As it is quite applicable.


Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #509 on: March 16, 2016, 11:24:33 PM »
The arguments I've heard for this that make me believe we're ultimately doomed.
Big one: Our debt. Eighteen trillion? I read an article from an economist a while back that said no matter what we do there's no paying it off. How can we last when when we have no money, and no way of paying off what we owe?
National debt is one of those issues that everyone freaks out about when, in actuality, it's really nothing to worry about. Pretty much every country in the world has debt and, except in very rare occasions, it barely ever gets called in. And America in particular has no need to worry since nobody wants to call in the debt because almost every country in the world has some stake in the American economy and would lose money were it to collapse. Plus, a lot of countries owe debt to America so they don't want to start a cycle of debt calling.

this is absolutely a thing.

what annoys me even more is the comparisons to "your credit card".  that drives me crazy.
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/01/14/why-public-debt-is-not-like-credit-card-debt/