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Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 288247 times)

Offline Arry

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #465 on: March 09, 2016, 12:46:23 PM »
Another point to make is the extreme cost of healthcare. It is actually the leading cause for bankruptcies in the US. You can be a hard working contributing member of society and think you are doing fairly well. But if you don't have medical insurance, or even if you have insurance but have limited coverage (potentially high co-pays), and are hit with a catastrophic illness or injury, you are screwed. More people file for bankruptcy because of medical bills than because of job loss (almost twice as many). These are not lazy people they are just under insured.






Because my family has a rule. At 18, get out of the house and do something with yourself. If you need to stay somewhere for a couple months, that's fine. But if you're still here at the end of three months, and we haven't seen you looking for a job, you're out.
At age 18, you are unlikely to be able to pay high medical bills. What would your parents do in this case right after you move out? Do you think if something bad happened and you couldn't pay your medical bills your parents would think "Hey, someone has to be at the bottom of the food chain. Guess you should have worked harder!" I can't imagine that would be the case when it is someone you know.

I think part of the problem here is assuming that everyone impacted by high medical costs is at fault in some way. They are not all lazy or milking the system. Before my parents were old enough to qualify for Medicaid, they were paying more for their medical insurance than they were for their mortgage. They were lucky they were able to do that, and honestly it was not easy, I think they had to take money out of their retirement to be able to pay for it. And this is just the insurance payments, not actual medical bills which have potential to be way higher. Not everyone is going to have that option. Having coverage shouldn't cost more than having a roof over your head.

And another issue that comes up is people who don't have insurance or have really high co-pays are less likely to get early or preventative treatment which can result in overall higher medical costs. Sometimes it may be because they choose not to, but other times it can be because it is harder to get treatment with out it. It's sad, but making health care less accessible because of the cost involved really does impact real people, not just statistics on a page. Being faced with losing your house or medical treatment is a decision I would not wish on anyone.

Pretty much, I just don't feel that one person should be more deserving of life saving medical treatment than another, but unfortunately when people are faced with the financial burden of medical costs it is not a level playing field.
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Offline Nora

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #466 on: March 09, 2016, 01:13:18 PM »
Quote
We all have the opportunity to move up in the world. Yes, it's harder for some, including myself. But the opportunity is still there.
The dishwasher millionaire is an outdated myth. That may have been possible in the 50ies or 60ies but not nowadays. It is a fairy tale spread by rich people to keep the poor in check. Give them hope and they won't revolt.

Sadly this is extremely true. Do you think that this world has room for anyone to become a millionaire? Or just 'move up in the world'? There is no room for this, and the system itself doesn't allow it.
Baby boomers carry the idea around because they grew up in it, but we're smack in the middle of a great ring of recession.
In France when the crisis hit, we even coined an expression : 'la peur du déclassement social' : meaning the fear of losing social status, and more particularly to see your children do more poorly than you.
Things in most families went like this : great grand dad was a farmer between the two wars. Grand dad was a salesman selling cigars or whatnot. Got money to put all his kids through education, so your parents are teachers or lawyers, and now they expect you to be a doctor, another teacher, or an engineer, anything white collared really.
The idea that your kids might end up a brick layer, a waiter, or a struggling graphic designer was everyone's horror. Now people are mostly worried about their kid being unemployed and struggling with a monthly state allowance... I made money selling illustrations on that topic for the press, trust my word!

There are also a few sturdy blocks to keep people down. You have a great business idea and you're ready to work your life out to make it work? Doesn't mean you'll find a bank to lend you money. Doesn't mean you won't hire someone who won't run away with the till, or competitors that won't leave you by the roadside, ect (the list of hurdles to any form of success is long and mighty).
Let's not kid ourselves. Not everyone who tries long and hard and would jump at the first opportunity makes it. Actually some of the people who work the hardest make the least and work in stress and struggle to make ends meet.

What you can't get through pure work is a lot of luck, networking, happy chance moments, ect.
But not everybody can have those. And we're not all equal anyway, no PC discourse can prevent that. We don't all have the same bag of smarts, social skills, education, higher education, financial cushion, or even goals, ect.

We don't all have the opportunity to move up because we can't all do it, don't all want it, and also because, as xiagan points out, without poor people and middle classes, the rich wouldn't exist. A large mass of people who can't escape their misery and loans is necessary in order to create riches in a capitalistic world.

The key is to find your happiness otherwise.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 01:24:43 PM by Nora »
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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #467 on: March 09, 2016, 04:51:30 PM »
Being forced to perform to a level because of the fear of what happens if you don't is not a good motivator.

@Arry that is a horrific chart. The concept of kicking a person while they are down is generally frowned upon.

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #468 on: March 09, 2016, 05:39:46 PM »

@ultamentkiller, to me, this sounds as if you see humans as lazy, egoistic beings who never want to do more than they have to and always look for personal gain first. Seeing such a negative view of humankind in someone as young as you saddens me.

Of course, there are lazy and egoistic people who don't bother to look for a job because they get welfare, no point arguing this.
But I think that the points you made hurt more people who aren't like this than it rightly punishes those who are.

Like you, I'm usually not dedicated enough to put energy into discussions like this, but the things you wrote are so diametrical to my own view that I couldn't resist. ;)
And don't take me wrong, I'm with @tebakutis in appreciating that you post your points here and that you are willingly to discuss them with us. I hardly have the chance to talk to somebody with your beliefs.

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Why would a doctor try harder if he knows he's going to get paid just as much as the next guy?
Because he became a doctor to actually help people? Wouldn't you try as hard as you can to save a life no matter the pay?

Quote
Family wealth is different of course, but most of the time the person's earned what they're getting through hard work.
Nope. Most rich people are rich because they inherited their wealth. They didn't do anything besides being accidentally born into a rich family. One could argue that they did even less than 'normal' workers.

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If I know I'm going to be taken care of no matter what, why should i care what job I get? I'm covered.
Because being covered isn't enough? You want to go on vacation, have a car,  support a family, ...

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To me, I would rather my wealth determine what care I get than anything else.
Quote
"How much you make shouldn't determine if you survive." But why not? Someone has to be at the bottom of the food chain.
You don't take into account those who suffer the most from this without being able to change something: Children. If you are born into a poor family, you don't get as much support, education and healthcare as you should. So to change your sentence above a bit: "How much your father makes should determine if you survive." Does that sound fair to you?

About the "bottom of the food chain": Sure, it's not possible (or even a good idea) that everybody earns/has the same. BUT it is possible to raise the bar. The bottom of the food chain could still be "having the minimum you need to live in dignity". Would that be so bad?

Quote
We all have the opportunity to move up in the world. Yes, it's harder for some, including myself. But the opportunity is still there.
The dishwasher millionaire is an outdated myth. That may have been possible in the 50ies or 60ies but not nowadays. It is a fairy tale spread by rich people to keep the poor in check. Give them hope and they won't revolt.

Quote
Because my family has a rule. At 18, get out of the house and do something with yourself. If you need to stay somewhere for a couple months, that's fine. But if you're still here at the end of three months, and we haven't seen you looking for a job, you're out.
That's great, because it helps you get self-reliant and independent. A friend's half-brother just turned 18 and he gets everything he wants and that's really bad because he gets no preparation at all for the world outside his home. He's totally spoiled and is only half-heartedly looking for a job or education. There will be a rude awakening someday for him and I hope it won't break him.

Quote
Now of course, I'm saying this in a community filled with Europeans in socialist countries, and Americans who lean farther left. The purpose of this isn't to argue and try to change any of your minds. I'm just trying to give another perspective. Honestly, I wish there were someone else around who had my same beliefs. I'm not as dedicated to putting the energy into this discussion as lots of others here. That's just where I come from.
The funny thing is that a lot of European countries (Germany included) have conservative/right wing governments but even those are still more left than most Americans would tolerate.
Yeah, I think the key difference here is how I see humanity VS. how you see it like you stated above. I view the human race as pathetic, selfish beings who only do good things because it's been drilled into their head that it's wrong. If they can find an excuse to do something that's not technically wrong from their standards, then they do it. Of course, there will always be exceptions to the rule. Some doctors become doctors because they actually care. You can see it in the way they act, and the lengths they go to for you. I've met one or two doctors. The rest of them I view in the same light as politicians. Sure, they started out as someone wanting to help, but then the money poured in and they lost their way. When it comes down to it, we're all just selfish people. We're all just cogs in a machine. Some people get to do what they want, but others are willing to put themselves through hell just to survive. And then they look for any way possible to get ahead in life, as long as it doesn't compromise their morals too much.
Above, you said the word "fair." Does it seem fair? No. Is life fair? Definitely not. That's a lesson I learned ever since I was a little kid. Just because something's fair does not mean it will happen. There's no way to prevent it. Life is harsh, throwing every obstacle it can in an attempt to break you. And when you become stronger, the obstacles get bigger. It's just a cycle.
But a dose of optomism. It's been stated that most people can't become successful or rich through hard work. It's just luck. I don't know who said this, but it's one of my favorite quotes. "Luck is the crossroads between hard work and opportunity." Work at something long enough, and actively seek opportunities, and you'll get there. That's what I choose to believe. I cannot accept the fact that achieving what you want is impossible. I don't want to be rich. I don't see the point of it all. But if I wanted to make a million dollars a year, the only thing stopping me from getting there is myself. I think lots of people say they've tried everything, but really they've just given up. No one's ever tried everything. There's always something else you can do to achieve your goal. Society and the government will do whatever it takes to keep you down in the gutter. They don't want a regular person among the elite. But we all have the capability of being there if we really wanted to. It's just most of us don't desire it enough to try. I know I don't.

Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #469 on: March 09, 2016, 06:32:35 PM »
I view the human race as pathetic, selfish beings who only do good things because it's been drilled into their head that it's wrong.
Oh wow. In my personal opinion, this is a very sad way of seeing life, and I'd think this just causes problems for you, in your interaction with people.
Then again, each to their own.

I believe people are innately good in general. Of course, this has caused me a few problems in the past, but even when I suffered the ultimate betrayal, after a couple of years I was back to my old self. And I feel this belief has helped make my life a good one.

And sorry if I'm confusing things, but I thought you were christian? I thought christians believed the best of people, at least that's how I was raised.

And just 2 specific cases:
* Talking with an american colleague of mine about my mental health problems, she told me that it seems to be genetic in her family, but she always treated hers through 'natural means'. However she was really worried about her 7-year old daughter, who's got the same issues but my colleague's solutions weren't working, and she will have to go to a doctor, and get proper medication. She was wondering how expensive that was going to be, since her work health insurance doesn't cover mental health. And we're talking about someone at my level, mid/high management in a big multinational company.

* I'm very sorry to say this, but when you say
Quote
Work at something long enough, and actively seek opportunities, and you'll get there. (...)But if I wanted to make a million dollars a year, the only thing stopping me from getting there is myself. I think lots of people say they've tried everything, but really they've just given up. No one's ever tried everything.
I think you're being offensive to Nora.
I'm not sure if you've read her posts about her situation, but she works really hard just to pay rent and food, and trying to find her place in the world. Yet that is not enough, and she's in a hard place.
Yes, I bet she wasn't "tried everything": I bet she hasn't tried dealing, or selling herself, or stealing, or other stuff. Would you want her to?
I'm not sure if you said that just because you're so young, but soon life will show you reality, and I hope you don't suffer too much.
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Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #470 on: March 09, 2016, 07:15:16 PM »
And sorry if I'm confusing things, but I thought you were christian? I thought christians believed the best of people, at least that's how I was raised.

* I'm very sorry to say this, but when you say
Quote
Work at something long enough, and actively seek opportunities, and you'll get there. (...)But if I wanted to make a million dollars a year, the only thing stopping me from getting there is myself. I think lots of people say they've tried everything, but really they've just given up. No one's ever tried everything.
I think you're being offensive to Nora.
I'm not sure if you've read her posts about her situation, but she works really hard just to pay rent and food, and trying to find her place in the world. Yet that is not enough, and she's in a hard place.
Yes, I bet she wasn't "tried everything": I bet she hasn't tried dealing, or selling herself, or stealing, or other stuff. Would you want her to?
I'm not sure if you said that just because you're so young, but soon life will show you reality, and I hope you don't suffer too much.
First I'll respond to the Christian thing. As a Christian, I try to be the best person I can be. Yes, I ultimately fail because no one is perfect, but it's the effort that matters. That doesn't mean I see everyone around me as good people. Life has shown me on countless occasions how terrible people are, including myself at times. There's no ignoring it. Not for me.
Second, I'm not trying to offend anyone here. In Nora's case, I have no idea what her life goals are, so I'm not in a position to say anything. Even if I did know her goals, I'm not her and I don't live with her situation, so there's no place for me to judge whether she's tried everything. If someone's life goal is to become filthy rich, their are multiple ways to do it, some of which will compromise your morals. When it comes to wealth, that's just apart of it. But let's say my goal is to become a published author. If I get stuck somewhere, I have to sit down and think, "Have I really tried everything? Have I done the research, listened to advice, etc?" There's always something new to try. For some, it's just to keep writing because they haven't fully developed their craft. For others, it's continuing to seek publishers. And for others, it's self-publishing and doing all the work necessary to market yourself. And those are only the options coming to the top of my head. There's so many different things that can be done, it's impossible to name them all. Everyone has different goals in life.
I hoep that makes a little more sense.

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #471 on: March 09, 2016, 07:22:48 PM »
Yeah, I think the key difference here is how I see humanity VS. how you see it like you stated above. I view the human race as pathetic, selfish beings who only do good things because it's been drilled into their head that it's wrong. If they can find an excuse to do something that's not technically wrong from their standards, then they do it.
Now I'm curious. Are your family, friends and acquaintances like this? Or are you in the lucky circumstance that most people you know closer are exceptions from how humanity generally is?

Quote
Above, you said the word "fair." Does it seem fair? No. Is life fair? Definitely not. That's a lesson I learned ever since I was a little kid. Just because something's fair does not mean it will happen. There's no way to prevent it. Life is harsh, throwing every obstacle it can in an attempt to break you. And when you become stronger, the obstacles get bigger. It's just a cycle.
Yep. Life is not fair and never will be and the sooner one learns this, the better they can prepare for it.
But we as humanity should strive as much as possible to make it more fair.
Baden-Powell (founder of the world scouting movement) said that one should "Leave this world a little better than you found it". I fully agree with this.
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Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #472 on: March 09, 2016, 07:24:43 PM »
Maybe it's because I'm heartless or something. To me, I would rather my wealth determine what care I get than anything else. The incentives argument makes a lot of sense. Why would a doctor try harder if he knows he's going to get paid just as much as the next guy? Same goes for factory workers and the like.

I think you're viewing the ability to get medical care as a luxury (as it is in the US), rather than a right (as it is in many other countries) which is where this disconnect is coming from. Healthcare isn't a luxury. It's a necessity.

Consider the following arguments equivalent to your idea that wealth level should gate healthcare and see if it changes your viewpoint.

- You shouldn't be able to vote in elections unless you make a certain amount of money. The more money you make, the more times you should be able to vote.
- You shouldn't be entitled to have the fire department come to your home and extinguish a fire unless you make a certain amount of money. Moreover, the number of rooms in your house the fire department will save are limited by your income.
- If you are accused of a crime, you shouldn't be able to have a lawyer represent you in court unless you make a particular amount of money. If you make below a certain income level, no lawyer for you.
- If you lose your job, and then you get hit by a drunk driver and are badly injured on the way home, an ambulance will not be called. You're the one who lost your job. Lazy people don't get ambulances.

I'm certain you can see how ridiculous these arguments are. I'd be confident saying that you don't agree with any of these, in regards to gating them by wealth. So why is the ability to receive healthcare any different?

In our current system, you can work 30 years as a dutiful member of society and make a decent nest egg, only to get laid off when your job is outsourced to China. You lose your employer paid insurance. Soon after, you get a rare form of cancer that costs almost a million dollars to treat over multiple years. You don't have that money, and you declare bankruptcy. Eventually, you lose your home and end up on the street. (The chart Arry posted shows how common this is).

Is this fair? Is a person who works 30 years and then loses their job right before they get sick lazy and entitled, or simply unlucky? Because in our current system, no matter why you lose your job, the penalty is "no healthcare for you."

Now, there are absolutely arguments for living within your means - at least in regards to non-critical needs. You shouldn't buy a super expensive BMW if you can't afford it (a Saturn is fine) and you shouldn't buy a multi-milliion dollar house unless you can pay the mortgage (you'll probably want a smaller home or a cheaper area). There are plenty of advantages and luxuries that wealthy people can enjoy that those who aren't wealthy cannot, but those don't dictate survival.

Being able to see a doctor when you get sick is not a luxury that should be gated by wealth, any more than the ludicrous examples (voting, access to public services, access to an ambulance) I posted above.

It's like this. If someone told me today, "Hey Justin. No matter what, we're going to let you graduate at the end of this semester and give you a great GPA, but we still want you to work hard." I would skip school except on days I wanted to see some select friends and test days. I wouldn't care if I failed every single class, because I get the same diploma as everyone else, and the same GPA.
Similarly, if I was told that, "Hey Justin. Don't worry if you become poor in life. You're taken care of either way. We'll house you, heal you, and take care of whatever you need." My response right now would be, "Great, I'm just going to graduate and sit at home."

Again, you're confusing luxuries and basic services, and you're ignoring the fact that doctors, like all other professionals, are employees whose performance is constantly evaluated. The argument that doctors will not do their job if they're "guaranteed" to get paid doesn't hold up, because it isn't true. Consider:

- Police officers get paid the same regardless of it they respond when you call 911 or not. Do you believe police officers won't respond?
- Firefighters get paid the same regardless of if they put the fire out at your house. How many cases are you aware of where firefighters just relaxed in their station as people burned?

If police officers or firefighters refuse to do their jobs, they are fired. The same would be true of doctors in a socialized system of medicine. Just because someone's salary is paid for by taxes doesn't mean they have a free pass to not do their job. Performance evaluations and the ability to hire and fire at will ensure that.

I hope this was helpful!

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #473 on: March 09, 2016, 07:51:13 PM »
personally, i don't understand why i have to payout so much of my taxpayer income to help people who are lazy or unable to work at a high level.  we should be justly compensated on our willingness to earn wealth.  anyone else is just not working hard enough.  the government is taking my money.  i should see the benefits.

i don't understand why i have to pay more taxes than someone else who can take huge tax deductions just because they have disabled dependents.  they didn't do anything to earn that.  and, why do i have to pay extra taxes on top of that for government enabled disability benefits?  they're just another form of entitlement that yet again hasn't been earned.  those people aren't able to contribute as much to society and the tax base as i do, so they shouldn't get as much of the benefit.  maybe it sounds harsh, but i think it just sucks to be them.

in fact, disabled persons need to get out of my way because in order for me to make more wealth, i need to maximize worker productivity -- and supporting them is a burden.  they're not as fast and require too many costly, physical considerations.  getting an able-bodied person in the position instead will increase the chances of my company doing well which directly impacts my ability to earn wealth.  why should i foot the bill for them?  it's a zero-sum game, so in order for me to win, someone has to lose.

i think we just need to leave the chaff behind so the rest of us can get ahead.

...

now, obviously, i don't believe any of that crap.

i like people.  i want happiness and fulfillment for everyone.  just like, if i were a single person without kids, i would still happily pay taxes to support public schools in order to not have to live in a nation of idiots -- i would happily transfer all the extra money used in emergency room care (many of my relatives use this as their "free health care option") to work more on preventative care.  that way, i'm not living in a nation of sickness and plague.

it's the rising tide lifts all boats thing.  if you've looked critically at the world long enough, you start to understand that it's not black and white -- it's gray.  lots of deep, sticky gray.

problems that are truly black and white are really, really easy to solve.  unfortunately, first-world countries rarely encounter those kinds of issues anymore.

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #474 on: March 09, 2016, 08:22:32 PM »
Maybe it's because I'm heartless or something. To me, I would rather my wealth determine what care I get than anything else. The incentives argument makes a lot of sense. Why would a doctor try harder if he knows he's going to get paid just as much as the next guy? Same goes for factory workers and the like.

I think you're viewing the ability to get medical care as a luxury (as it is in the US), rather than a right (as it is in many other countries) which is where this disconnect is coming from. Healthcare isn't a luxury. It's a necessity.

Consider the following arguments equivalent to your idea that wealth level should gate healthcare and see if it changes your viewpoint.

- You shouldn't be able to vote in elections unless you make a certain amount of money. The more money you make, the more times you should be able to vote.
- You shouldn't be entitled to have the fire department come to your home and extinguish a fire unless you make a certain amount of money. Moreover, the number of rooms in your house the fire department will save are limited by your income.
- If you are accused of a crime, you shouldn't be able to have a lawyer represent you in court unless you make a particular amount of money. If you make below a certain income level, no lawyer for you.
- If you lose your job, and then you get hit by a drunk driver and are badly injured on the way home, an ambulance will not be called. You're the one who lost your job. Lazy people don't get ambulances.

I'm certain you can see how ridiculous these arguments are. I'd be confident saying that you don't agree with any of these, in regards to gating them by wealth. So why is the ability to receive healthcare any different?

In our current system, you can work 30 years as a dutiful member of society and make a decent nest egg, only to get laid off when your job is outsourced to China. You lose your employer paid insurance. Soon after, you get a rare form of cancer that costs almost a million dollars to treat over multiple years. You don't have that money, and you declare bankruptcy. Eventually, you lose your home and end up on the street. (The chart Arry posted shows how common this is).

Is this fair? Is a person who works 30 years and then loses their job right before they get sick lazy and entitled, or simply unlucky? Because in our current system, no matter why you lose your job, the penalty is "no healthcare for you."

Now, there are absolutely arguments for living within your means - at least in regards to non-critical needs. You shouldn't buy a super expensive BMW if you can't afford it (a Saturn is fine) and you shouldn't buy a multi-milliion dollar house unless you can pay the mortgage (you'll probably want a smaller home or a cheaper area). There are plenty of advantages and luxuries that wealthy people can enjoy that those who aren't wealthy cannot, but those don't dictate survival.

Being able to see a doctor when you get sick is not a luxury that should be gated by wealth, any more than the ludicrous examples (voting, access to public services, access to an ambulance) I posted above.

It's like this. If someone told me today, "Hey Justin. No matter what, we're going to let you graduate at the end of this semester and give you a great GPA, but we still want you to work hard." I would skip school except on days I wanted to see some select friends and test days. I wouldn't care if I failed every single class, because I get the same diploma as everyone else, and the same GPA.
Similarly, if I was told that, "Hey Justin. Don't worry if you become poor in life. You're taken care of either way. We'll house you, heal you, and take care of whatever you need." My response right now would be, "Great, I'm just going to graduate and sit at home."

Again, you're confusing luxuries and basic services, and you're ignoring the fact that doctors, like all other professionals, are employees whose performance is constantly evaluated. The argument that doctors will not do their job if they're "guaranteed" to get paid doesn't hold up, because it isn't true. Consider:

- Police officers get paid the same regardless of it they respond when you call 911 or not. Do you believe police officers won't respond?
- Firefighters get paid the same regardless of if they put the fire out at your house. How many cases are you aware of where firefighters just relaxed in their station as people burned?

If police officers or firefighters refuse to do their jobs, they are fired. The same would be true of doctors in a socialized system of medicine. Just because someone's salary is paid for by taxes doesn't mean they have a free pass to not do their job. Performance evaluations and the ability to hire and fire at will ensure that.

I hope this was helpful!
I now point to teachers. The measures that were supposed to make sure they don't suck are standardized testing. And look how well that's turned out.
Take a look at John Olliver's Standardized Testing episode. It explains everything there.
When it comes to teachers, all they do is teach to the test. It doesn't matter if they're good or not. they just have to find a study guide within two weeks of the test, make their students take it, and then pretty much everyone passes making the teacher look like they're doing their job well. From my own experience, most of them are not. There are few teachers who can actually teach well.
So based on how this system went, the evaluations for doctors idea doesn't look promising. As far as cops and firefighters go, they get fired because they're not doing their job. There's plenty of cops out there who only do the minimum required, because they don't care. And then there's places where cop's get incentives for arresting more people and closing the most cases, so they work extremely hard. Sometimes they work too hard, and arrest people for stupid things. As for fighting fires, their "minimum" is pretty high. Put the fire out, rescue people inside, etc. That's a lot of work. They really don't have a choice, and if you're in that job, you're most likely passionate about stopping fires and saving people. That's a lot of hard work.

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #475 on: March 09, 2016, 08:30:51 PM »
As for fighting fires, their "minimum" is pretty high. Put the fire out, rescue people inside, etc. That's a lot of work. They really don't have a choice, and if you're in that job, you're most likely passionate about stopping fires and saving people. That's a lot of hard work.

I'm still not clear on this element, though. Why do you think this is true of firefighters (if you're in that job, you're most likely passionate about stopping fires and saving people) and not doctors?

Ideally, I'd like to better understand your thought process, but I'm unclear how the claim that doctors would work less hard in a socialized system (even if it was true) justifies allowing hard-working people to lose their jobs, get sick, and end up going bankrupt.

Essentially, I still don't have a good understanding of why you're convinced that the right to receive decent medical care should be gated by wealth. There are a number of reasons people may not have healthcare in the current US system that have nothing to do with being "lazy".

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #476 on: March 09, 2016, 09:07:56 PM »
As for fighting fires, their "minimum" is pretty high. Put the fire out, rescue people inside, etc. That's a lot of work. They really don't have a choice, and if you're in that job, you're most likely passionate about stopping fires and saving people. That's a lot of hard work.

I'm still not clear on this element, though. Why do you think this is true of firefighters (if you're in that job, you're most likely passionate about stopping fires and saving people) and not doctors?

Ideally, I'd like to better understand your thought process, but I'm unclear how the claim that doctors would work less hard in a socialized system (even if it was true) justifies allowing hard-working people to lose their jobs, get sick, and end up going bankrupt.

Essentially, I still don't have a good understanding of why you're convinced that the right to receive decent medical care should be gated by wealth. There are a number of reasons people may not have healthcare in the current US system that have nothing to do with being "lazy".

duh.  because firefighters are heroes.

seriously tho, emergency room doctors handily disprove that notion. about half the emergency room visits in the u.s. are uninsured people who can't pay according to the cdc.  http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/earlyrelease/emergency_room_use_january-june_2011.pdf

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #477 on: March 10, 2016, 01:27:15 AM »
Quote
personally, i don't understand why i have to payout so much of my taxpayer income to help people who are lazy or unable to work at a high level.  we should be justly compensated on our willingness to earn wealth.  anyone else is just not working hard enough.  the government is taking my money.  i should see the benefits.

But you don't pay much tax.

Go to Scandinavia and pay out 50%+  of your earnings in tax but you get great services for it.
Go to most of Europe and you are paying close to 50% by the time you add all the direct and indirect taxes.

I would be delighted for the opportunity to earn at present. Sadly doing what I do the work has gone or is going east and I am competing with guys who are looking one or two levels below their qualifications and I am having to do likewise. Probability is I wind up starting again.

Now with nearly 26 years working without a break, contributing I would consider I what I have paid over the years should cut me a little slack.
You may have noticed your tax revenues have been spent on important things like bailing out private banks and ensuring the super rich stay that way. So you can see the benifits you just wont get them.

I feel any society should be judged on how it treats the lowest and most vunrable members, but thats just my opinion.

Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #478 on: March 10, 2016, 01:47:27 AM »
(note that you quoted something that was supposed to be a wind-up, see further down that post...)
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Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #479 on: March 10, 2016, 08:35:29 AM »
It's shocking to watch the latest Republican debates side by side with the Democratic ones.

"I've got small hands but a huge d**k" vs discussions on student debt, Affordable Care against Single Payer, immigration reform and institutionalized racism.

I can't help but think that Sanders and Clinton have had a lot of practice at debating actual policies in these last few months and that, whoever the Republican nominee is, will get decimated in the upcoming head-to-head debates. Or maybe not, as this presidential election is not short on surprises and unpredictable turns.
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