November 12, 2019, 04:35:08 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 275197 times)

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #450 on: March 02, 2016, 05:33:44 PM »
OMG is a fair decription.

How about a new party selection method all potential candidates are put in a dark room together with one small knife. Or give them a knife each if you don't want to find out who is just lucky.
After three days the winner is let out.
They wouldn't need to be any more vicious or backstabbing but you would know that potential candidates were dedicated and had a strength of character to put themselves in harms way as well as others.

Then you could get on with electing who has the most cash spent on them.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 07:02:11 PM by Rostum »

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #451 on: March 02, 2016, 07:41:36 PM »
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #452 on: March 06, 2016, 07:37:33 PM »
George Takai is (again) brilliant:

"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)

Offline Arry

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #453 on: March 07, 2016, 06:40:59 PM »
Don't let the title fool you, this is quite relevant to the political discussions around here. Well, maybe not relevant, but related.



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDgy37kPOZ4&list=FLjm4UoVGMfBua9lJ4CHlaXA[/youtube]

Spoiler for Hiden:
Personally I feel like the white circles around Trumps eyes and mouth are not make up but proof he is a blood sucking heartless vampire or a brain munching mindless zombie. But you know, that's just my opinion. 
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Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #454 on: March 07, 2016, 09:13:51 PM »
OMG!! This is incredible. ^
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Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #455 on: March 07, 2016, 09:19:06 PM »
hands down, this has been my favorite video of the last few days.

warning - mildly nsfw with language.  ...after all, it *is* from collegehumor.com.

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #456 on: March 08, 2016, 03:09:03 PM »
Quoted from the King's Paws, as I didn't want to drag that thread into a political discussion.

Haha. Well, thanks to socialized dentistry, as a French, I got to afford a dentist when I had a bad tooth. Social security is such a human basic to me that I struggle to understand how the average murican can rationalize arguments against it.

The push against socialized medicine in the US comes down to two uniquely American ideas, I think. Our need to feel superior to other countries, and the common belief that anyone who doesn't have a job is a "moocher" regardless of the reasons they may not have one - being laid off, being mentally ill, being replaced by robots, etc. Doesn't matter. If you don't have a job? You're a lazy bum, and *I'm* not helping you.

Much of the rhetoric in our politics involves around the US being "the greatest country in the world!" and, because that requires us to believe other countries must be inferior - and most of those countries have socialized medicine - obviously socialized medicine is inferior. Because other countries must be inferior to the US, many assume that any socialized medical care must ALWAYS be substandard and difficult to get. That's why our common knowledge insists everyone has to wait years for surgeries, all the doctors and dentists are terrible, etc, despite many other countries having great systems.

Basically, to acknowledge healthcare as a right would require acknowledging that the US isn't the best at doing something, and that's an idea many US citizens reject on principle. That's how they can rationalize that for profit insurance is, naturally, the best idea (it's uniquely American!) despite the fact that the last thing you want the people handling your medical care thinking about is if they can make a profit off you.

Also, there's an unfortunate element of "I've got mine, so screw you", especially if you are fortunate enough to have a job (and employer paid insurance) when you fall ill or have an accident. From that perspective, why *shouldn't* you go bankrupt if you get sick, since you were lazy enough to not have a job when you fell ill or were in a car accident? I certainly don't want to pay for YOUR laziness.

What most people don't realize is, in fact, every insured person in the US DOES pay for the uninsured. Part of the reason our rates are so high is because we're paying for all the emergency room visits from uninsured people. But, try explaining that to the average low-information voter. They don't see the cost at all - instead, they strongly believe that any push toward socialized medicine means we'd simply be "stealing" money from their paycheck to pay for moochers. They don't understand that's exactly what's already happening.

Here's a perfect example of the American disconnect between health care as a right. The original story seems to no longer be hosted, and I acknowledge Gawker is a very liberal site, but the facts are pretty much as presented.

http://gawker.com/man-who-would-rather-go-blind-than-get-obamacare-now-go-1704019495

EDIT: Just in the interest of being clear, I should also add that "ObamaCare" (as we've labeled the Affordable Care Act") has a large number of problems, least of which is it isn't as affordable as we'd hoped. There's also a lot of resistance to it from states and just a number of problems with the way it had to be changed and watered down to pass our divided Congress. So it's not an ideal solution by any means, and I'm not claiming it is.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 03:24:19 PM by tebakutis »

Offline Nora

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #457 on: March 09, 2016, 12:32:59 AM »
Another large part of it, I reckon, is the post-cold war blue fear of the word 'socialised'. Anything related to socialism sounds like communism to americans.

To us French, there is the middle ground, then on each sides the right (liberal) and far right (extremists), and the left (socialist) and the far left (extremists : communists, working parties).
Communism ? Socialism.
From our french point of view, the most socialist of your politician is Far-right. It's really like different worlds....
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #458 on: March 09, 2016, 01:09:04 AM »
A great description @tebakutis however the rest of the world cannot figure out how you have 1/3 of the worlds economy and 3rd world infant mortality rates. It can only be a selective form of madness. Nobody could con all of you this long surely.

setting up the NHS here was not without issues things hopefully will improve and issues get resolved. The socialism arguement is great. You build roads, have police and a standing military a federal government and all these are overlooked, but healthcare...

Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #459 on: March 09, 2016, 01:22:55 AM »
The irony is that conservatives in the U.S. worship at the altar of real word impacts. "That [progressive idea] might sound good, but it won't work in the real world because..."  "Because" here is almost always about incentives. If government is involved, the incentives are thought to be skewed. The Market is God.

So, if government pays for healthcare, doctors won't be incented to give good care, since they're guaranteed an income. Patients won't be incented to shop or limit their health care lurchases, since they lose nothing by not being frugal. Meanwhile, the government will decide what services to provide, and this will be "rationing". So much worse than people's personal wealth determining what services they get, right?

Now... As to @Rostum's comment that we have 3rd world infant mortality rates. I have to object. We have second world infant mortality rates. Just saying.

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Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #460 on: March 09, 2016, 02:02:55 AM »
Maybe it's because I'm heartless or something. To me, I would rather my wealth determine what care I get than anything else. The incentives argument makes a lot of sense. Why would a doctor try harder if he knows he's going to get paid just as much as the next guy? Same goes for factory workers and the like. And also, why shouldn't we give more care to the people with more money? Family wealth is different of course, but most of the time the person's earned what they're getting through hard work. If I know I'm going to be taken care of no matter what, why should i care what job I get? I'm covered.
It's like this. If someone told me today, "Hey Justin. No matter what, we're going to let you graduate at the end of this semester and give you a great GPA, but we still want you to work hard." I would skip school except on days I wanted to see some select friends and test days. I wouldn't care if I failed every single class, because I get the same diploma as everyone else, and the same GPA.
Similarly, if I was told that, "Hey Justin. Don't worry if you become poor in life. You're taken care of either way. We'll house you, heal you, and take care of whatever you need." My response right now would be, "Great, I'm just going to graduate and sit at home."
Case and point, blind people across America. Sure, lots of them don't work because they've been told by sighted people that they can't do anything for themselves, but lots of the ones that know better sit at home anyway because there's no reason to do anything. Their parents take care of them at home, their insurance is fully covered, they even get 700 dollars a month, which I see them spend on audio games and microphones. This hurts the people like me, who try to get a job but are rejected because of the other 70 percent of our population. The people like me who could never dream of sitting at home, depending on and trusting someone enough to take care of me for the rest of my life. Why am I different from the other blindies? Because my family has a rule. At 18, get out of the house and do something with yourself. If you need to stay somewhere for a couple months, that's fine. But if you're still here at the end of three months, and we haven't seen you looking for a job, you're out.
So yes, it's heartless. I've heard the other points. "Other humans matter to." "How much you make shouldn't determine if you survive." But why not? Someone has to be at the bottom of the food chain. We all have the opportunity to move up in the world. Yes, it's harder for some, including myself. But the opportunity is still there. I want to make more money then the guy that has my same job. I want to do better than he does.
Now of course, I'm saying this in a community filled with Europeans in socialist countries, and Americans who lean farther left. The purpose of this isn't to argue and try to change any of your minds. I'm just trying to give another perspective. Honestly, I wish there were someone else around who had my same beliefs. I'm not as dedicated to putting the energy into this discussion as lots of others here. That's just where I come from.

Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #461 on: March 09, 2016, 02:12:47 AM »
@ultamentkiller, it's funny. I started out writing my earlier post not planning to be way negative on incentives. I actually believe in them in many places that left leaning folks don't.

Take college. I agree. If there is too strong a safety net and if college is free, then where are the incentives? In my view, the government did it of college in the U.S. creates the high prices for college. Ironic.

But what I do think we should do is to look at outcomes. If single payer healthcare results in better and less expensive healthcare (and I don't have the facts, I'm just raising the if) then it should be heavily considered.

Finally I think you're right about income buying more and utter being okay. Just not as simple emthing that trumps in every single case. Better clothes? Sure. Better food? Yup. Cars, homes, etc. yes. But might there be some things where we say "wealth can buy better, but everyone gets some solid basis level of service.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #462 on: March 09, 2016, 03:47:36 AM »
Two Nations seperated by a common language.

Quote
Now... As to @Rostum's comment that we have 3rd world infant mortality rates. I have to object. We have second world infant mortality rates. Just saying.

Ok @Jmack we discount Detroit and I will concede.




Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #463 on: March 09, 2016, 10:45:58 AM »
@ultamentkiller, to me, this sounds as if you see humans as lazy, egoistic beings who never want to do more than they have to and always look for personal gain first. Seeing such a negative view of humankind in someone as young as you saddens me.

Of course, there are lazy and egoistic people who don't bother to look for a job because they get welfare, no point arguing this.
But I think that the points you made hurt more people who aren't like this than it rightly punishes those who are.

Like you, I'm usually not dedicated enough to put energy into discussions like this, but the things you wrote are so diametrical to my own view that I couldn't resist. ;)
And don't take me wrong, I'm with @tebakutis in appreciating that you post your points here and that you are willingly to discuss them with us. I hardly have the chance to talk to somebody with your beliefs.

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Why would a doctor try harder if he knows he's going to get paid just as much as the next guy?
Because he became a doctor to actually help people? Wouldn't you try as hard as you can to save a life no matter the pay?

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Family wealth is different of course, but most of the time the person's earned what they're getting through hard work.
Nope. Most rich people are rich because they inherited their wealth. They didn't do anything besides being accidentally born into a rich family. One could argue that they did even less than 'normal' workers.

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If I know I'm going to be taken care of no matter what, why should i care what job I get? I'm covered.
Because being covered isn't enough? You want to go on vacation, have a car,  support a family, ...

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To me, I would rather my wealth determine what care I get than anything else.
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"How much you make shouldn't determine if you survive." But why not? Someone has to be at the bottom of the food chain.
You don't take into account those who suffer the most from this without being able to change something: Children. If you are born into a poor family, you don't get as much support, education and healthcare as you should. So to change your sentence above a bit: "How much your father makes should determine if you survive." Does that sound fair to you?

About the "bottom of the food chain": Sure, it's not possible (or even a good idea) that everybody earns/has the same. BUT it is possible to raise the bar. The bottom of the food chain could still be "having the minimum you need to live in dignity". Would that be so bad?

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We all have the opportunity to move up in the world. Yes, it's harder for some, including myself. But the opportunity is still there.
The dishwasher millionaire is an outdated myth. That may have been possible in the 50ies or 60ies but not nowadays. It is a fairy tale spread by rich people to keep the poor in check. Give them hope and they won't revolt.

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Because my family has a rule. At 18, get out of the house and do something with yourself. If you need to stay somewhere for a couple months, that's fine. But if you're still here at the end of three months, and we haven't seen you looking for a job, you're out.
That's great, because it helps you get self-reliant and independent. A friend's half-brother just turned 18 and he gets everything he wants and that's really bad because he gets no preparation at all for the world outside his home. He's totally spoiled and is only half-heartedly looking for a job or education. There will be a rude awakening someday for him and I hope it won't break him.

Quote
Now of course, I'm saying this in a community filled with Europeans in socialist countries, and Americans who lean farther left. The purpose of this isn't to argue and try to change any of your minds. I'm just trying to give another perspective. Honestly, I wish there were someone else around who had my same beliefs. I'm not as dedicated to putting the energy into this discussion as lots of others here. That's just where I come from.
The funny thing is that a lot of European countries (Germany included) have conservative/right wing governments but even those are still more left than most Americans would tolerate.
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #464 on: March 09, 2016, 12:09:30 PM »
Thank you xiagan.