October 17, 2019, 04:45:36 PM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 268224 times)

Offline JMack

  • Hircum Magna Rex of the Fabled Atku Temple, and writing contest regular
  • Writing Group
  • Ringbearer
  • *****
  • Posts: 6963
  • Total likes: 4738
  • Gender: Male
  • Our daily efforts are love poems to the universe.
    • View Profile
    • Tales of Starlit Lands
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #405 on: February 23, 2016, 11:57:44 AM »
I want to say something here in support of @ultamentkiller's suspicions about government. Let's remember that our government experimented or committed eugenics on citizens in several prolonged cases: Tuskegee/syphillis, CIA/psychedlic drugs, North Carolina and sterilization of poor, disabled and African-American. The greatest killers of humanity in the last 100 years have been governments killing their own citizens: Germany/Jews, USSR/Ukraine, Cambodia, etc.

I am not saying that there was a conspiracy around 9/11. I personally find none of the arguments for government complicity to be persuasive.

I am saying we should not be too facile in saying "It's government; they don't know what the f* they're doing and it would leak out anyway." There are certainly some interesting conspiracy discussions around the sinking of the Lusitania, for example.

Meanwhile, putting aside actual political discussion, I've just spent a very diverting 30 minutes looking up conspiracy theories online. Coventry, Lusitania, Pearl Harbor... Mostly, folks debunk these. The one site I found (in a tiny, tiny bit of looking) that supported many of these conspiracy theories also had an entire page dedicated to "Mein Kampf" excerpts. I shit you not.

Still, conspiracies do happen. An interesting reference to the Congressional testimony of a Kuwaiti girl in the lead-up to Gulf War I, in which she described Iraqi troops tipping babies out of incubators. Turns out (see the NY Times article) that she was actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador, operating under a fictitious name, and the congressman responsible for arranging her testimony knew it.
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
You are being naive if you think that any sweet and light theme cannot be strangled and force fed it's own flesh. (Nora)
www.starlit-lands.com

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #406 on: February 23, 2016, 03:08:18 PM »
personally, i'm just going to say something in support of @ultamentkiller in general -- i LOVE that he's got different viewpoints and can talk about them.  diversity is so very awesome.  i think learning about how and what folks not like me think is fascinating.

second, i totally agree on the suspicious government in the past thing.

however, it's just not a thing anymore.  i view it like how unions were incredibly necessary in the 19th century, but are useless now in the age of social media.  how cops could get away with murder in the 80s, but are constantly under surveillance now.  how egregious government secrets are impossible to keep in this post "iraq invasion" and "edward snowden" world.

makes me think about the guy who used math to disprove specific conspiracies.
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35411684

also, in not even that much of a tangent, it reminds me of one of my favorite subreddits: /r/justiceporn

Offline JMack

  • Hircum Magna Rex of the Fabled Atku Temple, and writing contest regular
  • Writing Group
  • Ringbearer
  • *****
  • Posts: 6963
  • Total likes: 4738
  • Gender: Male
  • Our daily efforts are love poems to the universe.
    • View Profile
    • Tales of Starlit Lands
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #407 on: February 23, 2016, 04:09:33 PM »
The BBC article is quite cool.
Yes, I do think that the ability to successfully and secretly conspire is hugely limited in the modern, computerized world.

Meanwhile, "conspiracy" is slippery thing.

Take the second Gulf War.

In my opinion, and I do think supported by facts, 9/11 was perpetrated by terrorists with no aid from the U.S. government. The conspiracy theory is that the U.S. helped kill its own citizens - or turned a blind eye - in order to have an excuse to after Saddam and his oil.

Here is where I think the conspiracy theory does overlap reality. I personally believe that GW Bush and Chaney were eager for a fight. Eager to take down Saddam, and eager to create their new world order. In that context, I believe they actively worked to exaggerate (and maybe create) evidence to support their invasion of Iraq. 9/11 gave them their excuse.

This, to me, is a conspiracy masquerading as policy.
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
You are being naive if you think that any sweet and light theme cannot be strangled and force fed it's own flesh. (Nora)
www.starlit-lands.com

Online ScarletBea

  • Welcome party and bringer of Cake. 2nd-in-Command of the Writing Contest
  • Powers That Be
  • Big Wee Hag
  • *
  • Posts: 11076
  • Total likes: 6393
  • Gender: Female
  • Geeky Reading Introvert
    • View Profile
    • LibraryThing profile
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #408 on: February 24, 2016, 12:50:43 PM »
I'm still confused, so can someone still explain who exactly is voting for all these candidates, and what is the main difference to the 'proper election'?
I mean, couldn't the democrats be voting for Trump, so that then in the final one no one likes him and the democrat candidate gets chosen??
At home in the Fantasy Faction forum!

"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all" - Douglas Adams

Offline Hedin

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #409 on: February 24, 2016, 01:24:08 PM »
Each state has a little different rules with that but with my state (Indiana) that could certainly happen as you don't have to declare whether you're siding with one party of another.  If you do vote in the primary you have to pick if you want to vote in the Democrat or Republican party primary but that's all.  So yes if I voted in the primary (I don't, ours isn't until May and everything is decided by then) I could technically cast a Trump vote but the cost would be that I couldn't actually vote for my preferred candidate.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 01:29:10 PM by Hedin »

Offline Arry

  • Cat of the Canals
  • Administrator
  • Elderling
  • ***
  • Posts: 5878
  • Total likes: 635
  • Gender: Female
  • Faceless
    • View Profile
    • Tenacious Reader
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #410 on: February 24, 2016, 01:24:49 PM »
I'm still confused, so can someone still explain who exactly is voting for all these candidates, and what is the main difference to the 'proper election'?
I mean, couldn't the democrats be voting for Trump, so that then in the final one no one likes him and the democrat candidate gets chosen??

This is the primary election to determine who will run for each party. (It will narrow down to 1 Republican candidate and 1 Democrat candidate to run against each other. It gives people the chance to say who they want to represent their party and interests in the election)

If you are a registered Democrat, you can only vote in the Democratic primary, if you are Republican you can only vote on the Republican candidates. The rules are actually different per state, so if there could a state that does it differently. In North Carolina this is the way it is. When I was younger if you were registered Unaffiliated you were not allowed to vote in the primary at all. They have changed that now so that you can pick one primary or the other, but you may not vote for both. Again, different states may have different rules.

So, the only way a Democrat could vote for a Republican (at least in NC) would be to change their voter registration to be affiliated with the Republican party or Unaffiliated, and they would then also be waiving their right to vote for their actual party in the primary.

Sad, but this is actually how the American people are voting. There are actually people that want him in office.

EDIT: Sorry, was posting about the same time as Hedin, and our responses are similar :)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 01:26:50 PM by Arry »
“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only once.”
-- George R.R. Martin

http://www.tenaciousreader.com

http://www.speculativeherald.com

Offline Hedin

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #411 on: February 24, 2016, 01:29:46 PM »
Yours was more detailed.   ;D

Online ScarletBea

  • Welcome party and bringer of Cake. 2nd-in-Command of the Writing Contest
  • Powers That Be
  • Big Wee Hag
  • *
  • Posts: 11076
  • Total likes: 6393
  • Gender: Female
  • Geeky Reading Introvert
    • View Profile
    • LibraryThing profile
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #412 on: February 24, 2016, 01:54:46 PM »
Thanks!
At home in the Fantasy Faction forum!

"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all" - Douglas Adams

BeardKing

  • Guest
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #413 on: February 24, 2016, 02:15:11 PM »
Trump wins Nevada.

While I disagree with basically everything Donald Trump stands for, I understand why this is his third win in a row. Americans are tired of the way things work (or don't) in Washington. We're tired of the gridlock, tired of nothing getting done. So, I get it, we want an outsider in the White House this time around. But I think with the nomination (if) of Donald Trump for the Republicans, that pretty much hands the election to Democrats this November.

I must say, if you're a political nerd like me, this presidential season has been fun to watch.

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #414 on: February 24, 2016, 02:34:59 PM »
this tweet storm of punditry on why trump won't actually be president is pretty grand.  it'll give you back faith in the american people as a whole, if not the gop base.

https://storify.com/DemFromCT/jeet-heer-on-donald-trump-s-non-chances-to-win-the

Offline xiagan

  • Writing Contest Organizer
  • Powers That Be
  • Elderling
  • *
  • Posts: 5947
  • Total likes: 2588
  • Gender: Male
  • Master Procrastinator
    • View Profile
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #415 on: February 24, 2016, 02:53:33 PM »


Americans are tired of the way things work (or don't) in Washington. We're tired of the gridlock, tired of nothing getting done. So, I get it, we want an outsider in the White House this time around.
I think m3mnoch posted a few pages back how much got done by Obama and it was an impressive list.
People just like to complain.

"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)

Offline Saraband

  • Haggis eater, fantasy scribbler and a Writing Contest Regular
  • Writing Group
  • Master Namer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2283
  • Total likes: 1004
  • Gender: Male
  • Geeky Reading (and Writing) Introvert
    • View Profile
    • BrawBlether
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #416 on: February 24, 2016, 03:18:13 PM »
*carefully steps back in after a few days of staying away*

Meanwhile in the UK, the news is all about the referendum on Brexit / Bremain, and a UKIP supporter just released this beauty:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk[/youtube]

As for Trump, imagining him as Commander in Chief of the US is a nightmarish prospect for the whole world.
https://brawblether.com

"Poor gauzy souls trying to express ourselves in something tangible." - F. S. Fitzgerald

"Wherever I wander, wherever I rove,
The hills of the Highlands for ever I love." - Robert Burns

BeardKing

  • Guest
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #417 on: February 24, 2016, 03:24:23 PM »
I think m3mnoch posted a few pages back how much got done by Obama and it was an impressive list.
People just like to complain.

No, I understand. I personally voted for Obama twice (I support Bernie in this election) and am aware of his (many) accomplishments. But for those Americans still hurting in this economy, it doesn't feel like anything is getting done. And honestly, with a Republican House and Senate, right now not much is getting done.

And I don't think people just like to complain for the most part. Personally, my complaints about healthcare being extremely expensive (high co-pays, deductables and being underinsured) and low wages isn't me complaining because I enjoy complaining. They're legit complaints. While I agree the ACA in general is a good thing and should exist, it hasn't helped me financially. I'm paying WAY more than I've ever paid for healthcare and I have very high co-pays (it used to cost me $50 to visit the ER, now it's $250. Prescriptions used to cost me $5 a piece, now they're $25. A specialist visit used to cost $15, now it's $60. I had to get a CAT scan done recently that cost me $500), deductibles and I'm underinsured. So, I think saying people just like to complain isn't a very fair analysis.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 03:42:31 PM by BeardKing »

Offline tebakutis

  • Falsely Puffed Up Rascal Pig and Writing Contest Regular
  • Writing Group
  • Master Namer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2440
  • Total likes: 1746
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • www.tebakutis.com
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #418 on: February 24, 2016, 03:34:00 PM »
[As for Trump, imagining him as Commander in Chief of the US is a nightmarish prospect for the whole world.

Yes, I think this is why I'm nervous about this election year, even though much of the punditry is assuring me Trump would get crushed in the general election. That same punditry was previously telling me he'd never be a frontrunner for the Republication nomination, and look where he is now.

I guess I just don't have as much faith in common sense or sanity as I used to. Keep in mind, I live in a country where a significant portion of the population currently believes the government is poisoning us with "chemtrails", that vaccinating your children causes autism, and that climate change is a hoax. Americans have an increasingly tenuous relationship with facts and many now see being educated as a negative, so when people tell me "Naw, there's no way Trump could be elected President", as much as I want to believe it, it still seems like a possibility.

This, as Saraband says, is terrifying. I feel like we're moving steadily toward the world represented in Idiocracy, and that's not the world I want to leave for my little girl and grandchildren.

EDIT: On reflection, this post may a bit more doom and gloom than I intended. I do appreciate the reassurance from various quarters that Trump won't be elected president. I just worry that people dismissing the viability of his candidacy is part of what's gotten him this far in the first place.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 06:37:48 PM by tebakutis »

Online ScarletBea

  • Welcome party and bringer of Cake. 2nd-in-Command of the Writing Contest
  • Powers That Be
  • Big Wee Hag
  • *
  • Posts: 11076
  • Total likes: 6393
  • Gender: Female
  • Geeky Reading Introvert
    • View Profile
    • LibraryThing profile
Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #419 on: February 24, 2016, 03:48:34 PM »
it used to cost me $50 to visit the ER, now it's $250. Prescriptions used to cost me $5 a piece, now they're $25. A specialist visit used to cost $15, now it's $60. I had to get a CAT scan done recently that cost me $500
Gosh!!!
And you pay to go into ER? Anyone, not just those that are wasting their time?
What if you don't have money, do they let you die?


Saraband, gosh - that would be funny if it wasn't serious :-\
The ignorance (on both sides) is just unbelievable!
This week I saw an interview on Channel 4 news with this farmer and Jon asked him why he was voting out, wouldn't he lose all the european subsidies and then their position would be worse, competing with the other farmers. His reply: oh, the government won't let us fall, they'll continue to pay us subsidies.
Yes, with whose money? ::)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 03:53:06 PM by ScarletBea »
At home in the Fantasy Faction forum!

"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all" - Douglas Adams