October 17, 2019, 01:50:44 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 268091 times)

Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #270 on: January 05, 2016, 01:47:51 PM »
I respectfully disagree that voting is futile. Votes put Obama in office. Votes put GW is office. Two very different views for our country, leading to many differences in regulation, legislation, foreign policy and overall national POV. Trump's utter and public cynicism degrade our national mindset. Maybe there is a role for exposing the failings of the political corpus, but I'd rather it not be done by someone who panders to the worst racism and jingoism of the populace.
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Offline Hedin

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #271 on: January 05, 2016, 02:07:16 PM »
I disagree that voting is futile too.  I live in a fairly Republican state and I vote mostly Democrat depending on who is running (I never do a straight party ticket, I try to vote for the person who seems like the best fit for me regardless of party) so yes at times it feels like I'm wasting my vote.  However Obama did win the state in 2008 and in the the last election the Democrats picked up a Senate seat so it does swing.  Indiana had a 58% voter turnout in 2012 which is actually higher than I thought it would be.  If half, or probably even just a quarter, of those who didn't vote actually voted the results would have been a lot different.  Even if your candidate doesn't win, if they end up winning 55-45 instead of 60-40 that might actually tell them something about their constituency and maybe they will moderate their policies a little.

I do agree the primaries bring out the crazies as the candidates have to pander to their base and ignore the moderates for awhile. 

Offline Rukaio_Alter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #272 on: January 05, 2016, 02:35:20 PM »
I have no intention of ever voting as I find it futile, but I have enjoyed Trump's antagonizing of the Democrats and their supporters; as well as his revealing the cowardice of the GOP when it comes to voicing what their supporters actually want.
But the thing is, he's not really voicing what Republican supporters want. He's voicing what a specific subset of Republican voters want to hear (specifically, low educated, working-class white people).  It just so happens that that demographic is a rather large bloc in the Republican party and the huge number of candidates are splitting up the 'less-insane' Republican vote. I swear I've heard 'I'm a Republican but I hate Trump' many many times since this election season began.

Also, he's far from antagonising Democrats. He's basically delivering the election on a silver platter by alienating the vast majority of the electorate. Women, Latinos, Immigrants, Disabled People, you name it. There's a reason one of the most widespread rumours about Trump is that he's secretly a Democrat attempting to undermine the Republican party. (Personally, I just think he's in it for the attention and publicity and is saying anything to keep the spotlight on him.)

But the one thing that is very worrying about him is the way that he's in a way legitimizing all these insane, disgusting, bordering-on-fascist proposals by bringing them into public discussion. Ideas like 'killing terrorist families', 'building an anti-immigrant wall', 'banning all Muslims' shouldn't even be on the table when it comes to the most powerful country on Earth, but Trump is effectively saying 'Hey, it's all right to talk about these things because the Republican frontrunner is saying them.' It's just plain damaging to the country. And on that subject, you are right in calling out the cowardice of the Republican candidates who really should've called Trump out on his bullshit months ago, but have instead been tiptoeing around him in an attempt to court his supporters.
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Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #273 on: January 05, 2016, 02:38:59 PM »
in the last 20 years, i've lived in either idaho or california.  so, yeah -- my presidential vote has been futile.

i still vote, however, because there are tons and tons of state and local issue that are always close and important.

Offline Hedin

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #274 on: January 05, 2016, 02:42:58 PM »
in the last 20 years, i've lived in either idaho or california.  so, yeah -- my presidential vote has been futile.

i still vote, however, because there are tons and tons of state and local issue that are always close and important.

Actually that's probably the #1 reason to vote.  Your state and local elections will affect your day-to-day life a lot more than any national election.

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #275 on: January 05, 2016, 02:49:29 PM »
Also, he's far from antagonising Democrats. He's basically delivering the election on a silver platter by alienating the vast majority of the electorate. Women, Latinos, Immigrants, Disabled People, you name it. There's a reason one of the most widespread rumours about Trump is that he's secretly a Democrat attempting to undermine the Republican party. (Personally, I just think he's in it for the attention and publicity and is saying anything to keep the spotlight on him.)

But the one thing that is very worrying about him is the way that he's in a way legitimizing all these insane, disgusting, bordering-on-fascist proposals by bringing them into public discussion. Ideas like 'killing terrorist families', 'building an anti-immigrant wall', 'banning all Muslims' shouldn't even be on the table when it comes to the most powerful country on Earth, but Trump is effectively saying 'Hey, it's all right to talk about these things because the Republican frontrunner is saying them.' It's just plain damaging to the country. And on that subject, you are right in calling out the cowardice of the Republican candidates who really should've called Trump out on his bullshit months ago, but have instead been tiptoeing around him in an attempt to court his supporters.

i agree with all of that.

i'll add also the angle of him possibly still being in it because he is honestly out of touch and feels like he's standing up for the 'silent majority' because his poll numbers are pretty unprecedented.  "look!  i've tapped into what the people want!"  it's not like trump historically suffers from delusions of grandeur or anything.  but the thing is, his supporters?  they ain't silent, much less a majority.

if he wins the republican ticket, it will be one of the largest landslides in history.  the democrats may just win all 50 states.  the side of me that wants the republican party to address their ridiculous appeal to zealotry kinda wants him to get on the ticket.  force their hand into looking long and hard at how far to the right they've shifted.

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #276 on: January 05, 2016, 02:51:33 PM »
I respectfully disagree that voting is futile. Votes put Obama in office. Votes put GW is office. Two very different views for our country, leading to many differences in regulation, legislation, foreign policy and overall national POV. Trump's utter and public cynicism degrade our national mindset. Maybe there is a role for exposing the failings of the political corpus, but I'd rather it not be done by someone who panders to the worst racism and jingoism of the populace.

I will only say one thing about voting in regards to this discussion, as I feel sometimes, it gets lost, especially with the statement "your vote doesn't matter" in regards to living in a red or blue state, and voting the opposite.

Sure, if you live in Texas (for example) voting for Obama isn't going to accomplish much (yet), just as voting for Romney in Maryland would have been rather useless. But people forget about how much influence the president has in what actually affects YOU, in regards to where you live. People focus on huge macro-issues that really don't matter in the context of their individual lives (who's going to bomb the terrorists the most?) and forget that the issues in their hometown actually affect them.

In America, there's a huge focus on national elections for president, but very little focus on local races. Which is funny to me (in a kind of sad way) because when it comes down to what actually affects YOU - the rules in your county, the taxes you pay on your house and gas, the regulations for everything from driver's licenses to voting to political districts - it's the local politicians who have the most sway.

As an American, you're far more likely to be affected by policies implemented by your town mayor or state governor, all of whom are elected in local elections that often occur in off-cycle election years. The turnout for these is often even more dismal than presidential elections, so your vote there does matter quite a bit.

One recent example: my wife is a college professor, and after 5 years with no pay raise whatsoever, she *finally* got a 2% "cost of living" increase this last year. Unfortunately for us, a Republican governor was elected in Maryland that same year, and the first thing he did is cancel the cost of living increase in the typical Republican focus on cutting education budgets wherever possible.

So while Obama won Maryland, it hasn't really changed our lives in any significant way. By comparison, Governor Hogan's election has directly affected my wife's take home income. :)

EDIT: And I just noticed while I was writing this, three people posted the same thing regarding local elections! Heh.

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #277 on: January 05, 2016, 02:56:11 PM »
Also, he's far from antagonising Democrats. He's basically delivering the election on a silver platter by alienating the vast majority of the electorate. Women, Latinos, Immigrants, Disabled People, you name it. There's a reason one of the most widespread rumours about Trump is that he's secretly a Democrat attempting to undermine the Republican party. (Personally, I just think he's in it for the attention and publicity and is saying anything to keep the spotlight on him.)

Fun bonus fact: Regardless of whether Trump actually believes the insane things he spouts and is running with genuine hopes of winning the Republican primary by appealing to the most base instincts of uneducated voters, or whether he's running a false-flag operation to try to get Hillary Clinton elected by making the Republican party look scary/ridiculous, he would run his campaign the EXACT same way.

The campaign strategy to do both of those things is identical. Think about that for a second. :0

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #278 on: January 05, 2016, 10:01:03 PM »
I strongl
I respectfully disagree that voting is futile. Votes put Obama in office. Votes put GW is office. Two very different views for our country, leading to many differences in regulation, legislation, foreign policy and overall national POV. Trump's utter and public cynicism degrade our national mindset. Maybe there is a role for exposing the failings of the political corpus, but I'd rather it not be done by someone who panders to the worst racism and jingoism of the populace.

I will only say one thing about voting in regards to this discussion, as I feel sometimes, it gets lost, especially with the statement "your vote doesn't matter" in regards to living in a red or blue state, and voting the opposite.

Sure, if you live in Texas (for example) voting for Obama isn't going to accomplish much (yet), just as voting for Romney in Maryland would have been rather useless. But people forget about how much influence the president has in what actually affects YOU, in regards to where you live. People focus on huge macro-issues that really don't matter in the context of their individual lives (who's going to bomb the terrorists the most?) and forget that the issues in their hometown actually affect them.

In America, there's a huge focus on national elections for president, but very little focus on local races. Which is funny to me (in a kind of sad way) because when it comes down to what actually affects YOU - the rules in your county, the taxes you pay on your house and gas, the regulations for everything from driver's licenses to voting to political districts - it's the local politicians who have the most sway.

As an American, you're far more likely to be affected by policies implemented by your town mayor or state governor, all of whom are elected in local elections that often occur in off-cycle election years. The turnout for these is often even more dismal than presidential elections, so your vote there does matter quite a bit.

One recent example: my wife is a college professor, and after 5 years with no pay raise whatsoever, she *finally* got a 2% "cost of living" increase this last year. Unfortunately for us, a Republican governor was elected in Maryland that same year, and the first thing he did is cancel the cost of living increase in the typical Republican focus on cutting education budgets wherever possible.

So while Obama won Maryland, it hasn't really changed our lives in any significant way. By comparison, Governor Hogan's election has directly affected my wife's take home income. :)

EDIT: And I just noticed while I was writing this, three people posted the same thing regarding local elections! Heh.
This is so true. And, for the people that do vote in local elections, lots of them just look at the party name and not the people. It annoys me.
I used to be one of these people who wouldn't vote. I'll admit it's going to be hard to get me out there this year. But there's this Christian rapper I like named Andy Mineo and he said something like this.
We still make decisions for the fact that their awesome, not just for the profit margin.
And he's right. We're lucky that we can vote to decide who runs our country, even if the system is corrupt and the pawns will probably win out anyway. I'll vote because I shouldn't waste what this country was founded for. Freedom. You never know when it might matter.

Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #279 on: January 06, 2016, 12:24:30 AM »
@ultamentkiller, check my new post signature.

It says "Freedom. Cuz you never know when it might matter." Attributed to you.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 06, 2016, 12:26:31 AM by Jmack »
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
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Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #280 on: January 06, 2016, 01:10:30 AM »
Lol nice.
I probably should've said...
Freedom. Because you never know when you're votes might matter.
Yay for messing up pronouns. :P

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #281 on: January 06, 2016, 02:50:38 PM »
Am I allowed to ask the question as to why a tiny country in the middle east determines your foreign policy in the region.
You are a free country right, a democracy and the first amendment protects your right to free speech.
Yet anybody who criticises Israel while standing for office in America is vilified, loses their funding and are actively attacked and campaigned against by AIPAC who will fund anybody opposing them for the election.
As an outsider it looks somewhere between bizarre and treasonous to put the interests of a foreign power before your own.
Having discussed this with Americans in the past I get three stock answers:

It is racist to ask
I am not going to discuss this with you
I don't know either.

You are well aware that I have as little regard for your political system as I do our own, but I really am not trolling here. I am interested and to my mind it is a near perfect example of everything wrong with political lobbying. I would guess that about 5% of the American population have any interest whatsoever in Israel.
 I also believe that providing billions and vetoing any resolution at the UN concerning Israel is as harmful to the USA as it to Israel. This tiny country can will never be a responsible neighbour while this arrangement continues. As they are a net importer of power and food inevitably they will be in a very bad place, better to be tolerated than hated at that point.

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #282 on: January 06, 2016, 11:28:50 PM »
We love Israel for two big reasons. the first is their version of our CIA, massad(or however you spell it). Those people are scary. They're like ninjas. The second is that they have a heavy Christian connection in the Bible. Israel is supposed to be God's chosen country. So we don't want anything bad to happen to them.
Of course, that isn't all of Americans, but Israel is our friend.

Offline CryptofCthulhu

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #283 on: January 07, 2016, 04:01:23 PM »
I have no reason to take a politician at his/her word, ever.
“Silence is only frightening to people who are compulsively verbalizing.” ~ William S. Boroughs

Offline Hedin

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #284 on: January 07, 2016, 06:55:33 PM »
We love Israel for two big reasons. the first is their version of our CIA, massad(or however you spell it). Those people are scary. They're like ninjas. The second is that they have a heavy Christian connection in the Bible. Israel is supposed to be God's chosen country. So we don't want anything bad to happen to them.
Of course, that isn't all of Americans, but Israel is our friend.

Plus Israel is "under siege by Muslims" which unfortunately plays up quite well here.  The ironic thing is that the Koran shares many of the same stories as the Torah and Bible but you never hear talk like that.