October 17, 2019, 02:01:12 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 268094 times)

Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #225 on: December 09, 2015, 11:35:01 AM »
Jumping in late on the abortion conversation (I'm personally against it but I also think I shouldn't be making moral decisions for other people and let them choose their own way).  What gets me is that a large part of the group that is against abortions are also against good sex education and birth control.  If we really want to lower the abortion rate we should be passing out birth control pills and condoms like candy at Halloween rather than making it harder for them to get the appropriate protection.  Instead they equate anyone who takes birth control is a promiscuous slut who shouldn't have any protection because they are sinning in their actions.

This^.
Meanwhile one of these days I'll reply to raptoris last post on the subject because it seems to take its argument to an extreme with which I'm quite uncomfortable.
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
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Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #226 on: December 09, 2015, 02:12:31 PM »
Jumping in late on the abortion conversation (I'm personally against it but I also think I shouldn't be making moral decisions for other people and let them choose their own way).  What gets me is that a large part of the group that is against abortions are also against good sex education and birth control.  If we really want to lower the abortion rate we should be passing out birth control pills and condoms like candy at Halloween rather than making it harder for them to get the appropriate protection.  Instead they equate anyone who takes birth control is a promiscuous slut who shouldn't have any protection because they are sinning in their actions.

This^.
Meanwhile one of these days I'll reply to raptoris last post on the subject because it seems to take its argument to an extreme with which I'm quite uncomfortable.
I shall look forward to it.  ;)
I wish the world was flat like the old days, then I could travel just by folding a map.

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #227 on: December 09, 2015, 04:28:15 PM »
Campaign on 38 degrees to strip D Trump of his honoury degree from Robert Gordon University Aberdeanshire.
Sign the petition if you feel he is not a good role model for students. You May or may not know but he created havoc in Scotland as well.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/donald-j-trump-revoke-rgu-degree

This may actually backfire and merkins resolve to support Trump just because the british think he is an arse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35052505


« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 04:32:26 PM by Rostum »

Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #228 on: December 09, 2015, 06:08:06 PM »
Campaign on 38 degrees to strip D Trump of his honoury degree from Robert Gordon University Aberdeanshire.
Sign the petition if you feel he is not a good role model for students. You May or may not know but he created havoc in Scotland as well.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/donald-j-trump-revoke-rgu-degree

This may actually backfire and merkins resolve to support Trump just because the british think he is an arse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35052505

Most mercans think he's an arse too.
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
You are being naive if you think that any sweet and light theme cannot be strangled and force fed it's own flesh. (Nora)
www.starlit-lands.com

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #229 on: December 09, 2015, 06:37:52 PM »
Ok to explain?
Should the British appear to be doing anything to involve themselves in your political process their will be howls of outrage and the 'Patriotic' to do is stand firm behind the poor defenceless billionairre deemed to have been wronged through his own actions. There are those who will think he is an arse ass who will support him anyway because the British have the temerity to discuss denying him right of entry to their country.

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #230 on: December 09, 2015, 09:19:47 PM »
Meanwhile one of these days I'll reply to raptoris last post on the subject because it seems to take its argument to an extreme with which I'm quite uncomfortable.
I liked the two quotes from Saurus. The first because it is true and the second more from a philosophical point, since it's the other extreme to the so called pro-lifers, theoretically allowing abortion at any moment during the pregnancy - something I don't support of course.
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #231 on: December 09, 2015, 10:04:38 PM »
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)

Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #232 on: December 10, 2015, 09:55:45 AM »
Meanwhile one of these days I'll reply to raptoris last post on the subject because it seems to take its argument to an extreme with which I'm quite uncomfortable.
I liked the two quotes from Saurus. The first because it is true and the second more from a philosophical point, since it's the other extreme to the so called pro-lifers, theoretically allowing abortion at any moment during the pregnancy - something I don't support of course.
On the second quote, in a practical sense it's incredibly unlikely for someone to reach the later stages of pregnancy without realising it - they'll know early enough that they can make their decision without leaving it late. Obviously that won't cover every situation, and it's much harder to work out what the most appropriate approach is in unusual cases, but I think it's the most logical baseline from which to start those discussions.

The question central to the debate is whether or not abortion is morally wrong; anything that comes after that should come later on. :)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 09:57:44 AM by Raptori »
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Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #233 on: December 10, 2015, 11:39:20 AM »
This won't solve anything, but I say we agree on the following:

Removing life from a child is morally wrong.
Therefore, a parent does not have the moral right to kill their child to achieve their own goals.
Removing tissue from one's own body is morally acceptable.

Now the rub: When does the tissue that is, unless interfered with, becoming a child... actually become a child?

I would posit that she is a child if she can think - inside or outside the womb.
She is a child if she can feel pain or pleasure.
It is tissue if none of the above.

if a child, removing life is killing, and under many conditions, murder.
If tissue, abortion and morally neutral from the point of view of society unless other factors are involved, such a rape.


Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
You are being naive if you think that any sweet and light theme cannot be strangled and force fed it's own flesh. (Nora)
www.starlit-lands.com

Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #234 on: December 10, 2015, 01:24:36 PM »
This won't solve anything, but I say we agree on the following:

Removing life from a child is morally wrong.
Therefore, a parent does not have the moral right to kill their child to achieve their own goals.
Removing tissue from one's own body is morally acceptable.

Now the rub: When does the tissue that is, unless interfered with, becoming a child... actually become a child?

I would posit that she is a child if she can think - inside or outside the womb.
She is a child if she can feel pain or pleasure.
It is tissue if none of the above.

if a child, removing life is killing, and under many conditions, murder.
If tissue, abortion and morally neutral from the point of view of society unless other factors are involved, such a rape.
Yeah I more or less agree with that logic, and completely agree with the outcome. We don't know exactly when consciousness (and therefore ability to feel pain and so on) truly begins, but we do know that the capacity for consciousness starts developing at 24-28 weeks.

Since that means we can be (essentially) certain that the fetus is not conscious until at least 24 weeks, I think that's a reasonable cut-off point for abortions that most people would agree to.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #235 on: December 10, 2015, 01:41:21 PM »
And to complicate things around the point an embryo is refered to as a foetus the spine and nervous system develop. The brain is a life support system only at this point and develops later, but it is highly likely a foetus can feel before it can think.


Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #236 on: December 10, 2015, 01:51:33 PM »
And to complicate things around the point an embryo is refered to as a foetus the spine and nervous system develop. The brain is a life support system only at this point and develops later, but it is highly likely a foetus can feel before it can think.
If there's no consciousness there to experience the pain, then the 'pain' is simply electricity imo.  :)
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Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #237 on: December 10, 2015, 02:16:21 PM »
just out of curiosity...

raise your hand if you have a strong opinion as to when an embryo becomes a baby AND you've gone through pregnancy either as the mother or father.

Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #238 on: December 10, 2015, 02:25:20 PM »
just out of curiosity...

raise your hand if you have a strong opinion as to when an embryo becomes a baby AND you've gone through pregnancy either as the mother or father.
Surely it'd be just a little more relevant to ask "who has a strong opinion as to when an embryo becomes a baby and has gone through an abortion"? A lot of couples begin to think of their prospective child as a baby even before conception - parental perception doesn't affect the reality of when the baby becomes a sentient being.  :P
 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 02:27:59 PM by Raptori »
I wish the world was flat like the old days, then I could travel just by folding a map.

Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #239 on: December 10, 2015, 02:40:43 PM »
just out of curiosity...

raise your hand if you have a strong opinion as to when an embryo becomes a baby AND you've gone through pregnancy either as the mother or father.
Surely it'd be just a little more relevant to ask "who has a strong opinion as to when an embryo becomes a baby and has gone through an abortion"?  :P

i don't think so.  maybe?  i would imagine the answer to that would be nothing but crickets.  i'm just curious on the intersection of strong timeline opinion (early, late, whenever) plus the personal experience of having a baby.

my own thoughts, having a handful of miscarriages (for fellow commiserators, one was even the ugly d&c-style) before eventually having two amazing boys and my step-sister recently delivering her first child stillborn -- surprisingly, i don't have a strong opinion on when an embryo becomes a baby.

is it biophysics related?  maybe.

is it when you start talking to her stomach?  maybe.

is it when you see the heart beating at your first doctor visit?  maybe.

is it when you find out?  maybe.

it just feels really, really subjective and i was wondering if that was a common feeling.