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Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 267969 times)

Offline Mr.J

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #120 on: October 08, 2015, 12:22:36 AM »
So it's good when the elected leader of your country accuses the leader of the opposition of hating Britain right, as well as a terrorist sympathiser...
Not at all disturbing or McCarthyist.

Welcome to American politics.
:'( :'( :'( :'(

Also a welcome to democracy. The whole of the Prime Minister's speech was just awful. Depressing really.

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #121 on: October 08, 2015, 12:51:14 AM »
Quote
So it's good when the elected leader of your country accuses the leader of the opposition of hating Britain right, as well as a terrorist sympathiser...
Not at all disturbing or McCarthyist.

Nah call me Dave is just trying to deflect the press from what he stuck where in a dead pig.
The entitled, arrogant Blairites slandered Corbyn when they realised what a silly thing it was to get an actual socialist to run against them. He is hardly going to curl up and die because a Tory has a pop. For those who are unaware family tax credits were stuffed by the Tories today. While this is a system that I disagree with as it subsidises bad paying employers. Lots of working poor will lose any incentive or benefit from work.

Offline Eclipse

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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #123 on: October 08, 2015, 08:41:04 PM »
Quote
I've only seen this today, I feel really sorry for the parents I hope there can get their baby back

The chances of this happening are slim. The child has been adopted and those appointed by the court to protect the childs interests are likely to determine that it is in the childs best interests to leave them with their adoptive family.

That it took three years to come to court is a disgrace.
Family court is utterly secretive and supposedly geared to protect the child, often by silencing parents and leaving them without any recourse under law. Often it is made illegal to discuss where their children have vanished to.
Those responsible for misdiagnosing physical abuse will have acted in good faith and neither be reprimanded or exposed legally as to do so would discourage further diagnosis and put children at risk.

And so lives are destroyed....
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 11:55:08 PM by Rostum »

Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2015, 01:50:11 PM »
@Idlewilder, here are my questions.

Is the interest in Scottish independence related to current issues or primarily to the past?

What's your own view on Scottish independence?

I know that the previous referendum last year failed. What is the chance of another referendum and why would one come so soon after the other?

Is there a pretty clear mood or is it pretty mixed up among Scots?



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Offline Idlewilder

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2015, 03:57:30 PM »
@Idlewilder, here are my questions.

Is the interest in Scottish independence related to current issues or primarily to the past?

What's your own view on Scottish independence?

I know that the previous referendum last year failed. What is the chance of another referendum and why would one come so soon after the other?

Is there a pretty clear mood or is it pretty mixed up among Scots?


1. Difficult to answer this one and I'm short on time right now, so I might come back to it in (even) more detail later. Briefly though, I think it's a mixture of the two, and Scotland has always had that historical/cultural want to break off from the UK - something that may seem a bit sentimental/daft to the outsider, but Scotland every decade or so seems to just inch closer and closer to independence anyway with so much of our government fully devolved from Westminster to Scotland itself now. Education, for instance, is wholly handled by the Scottish government and from Primary schools right up to higher/further education it is actually quite different to that of England. This is true for Health, the structure of local government and other areas of government. But of course when it comes down to anything where MONEY MONEY MONEY is the prominent factor we Scots get the raw deal every time.

I think that the Referendum has sparked a real renewed interest, particularly in the younger demographics (though my parents are staunch PRO-Indys too!), in Scottish politics and Scottish Independence. People across the UK saw in the UK general election a few months ago how much support there is in Scotland for the SNP - though of course the Press would like to remind you that as the SNP are NATIONALISTS they must of course be similar to the more infamous Nationalist groups of history - I think we all know who I'm talking about here. Absurd.

Being a Scot, whether you're ultimately PRO or ANTI independence (more on this later) is quite an inherently cultural thing that really does come across in our National shared identity. Take a room full of 10 people at random from young to old, educated to non-educated and you'll get a lot of shared characteristics despite differences in views/backgrounds. We are miserable, sullen bastards. We do have quite a quick, dry, sweary, self-hating sense of humour. We do dislike 'the English' – at least as a…I dunno, concept maybe. (I'd just like to point out here that more than half of my friends, including obviously many of you here, are English. It's more of a thing that comes up with regards Sports and Politics, and it runs deeeeep.) But I think personally that the vast, vast majority want Independence. The media and the UK government just did an amazingly underhanded job of bombarding the less involved or bothered voters with promises of more devolved powers, scaremongering and threats in the final week or two. (The BBC, our 'non-bias' media juggernaut, is and was worst of the lot.) What kind of country/people wouldn't want its Independence; the chance to vote for its own government in entirety?

2. If it's not obvious by now, I'm PRO-Independence, and voted a big fat YES last year, and I do believe another Referendum - as frustrating as it may be for those who couldn't care less having to sit through weeks and months of debating again (let's be honest, it hasn't stopped anyway) - will happen in the next 5 years and that it needs to happen.

3. There's a high likelihood because: a) The Scottish government's (The SNP) top goal is basically Independence and the almost complete whitewash of Scottish Labour, the LibDems, and the already pretty non-existent Scottish Conservatives in Westminster this year by the SNP shows a massive leap in confidence by Scottish voters since the Referendum in the SNP. Next year's Scottish elections will see another IndyREF move forward very quickly if the SNP do similar at Holyrood. b) Polling data shows a big slide into the majority wanting Independence, and with the 'promises' made by Westminster coming to nothing (unsurprisingly) and worse happening for Scotland under the next 5 years of Tory rule at Westminster, more Scots are seeing clearly that Independence is a realistic way forward. c) Let's not forget that the vote went 45/55 in favour of the NO vote last year. That's not exactly a decisive majority, particularly when you consider that something like 85% of the population voted. Big changes in polling this soon after the REF suggest another REF is the democratic thing to do.

4. I think there's still a mix, but it's becoming clearer in Scotland that people want Independence, they're just still not 100% convinced it will work...yet. The demographics for voters last year saw a wild difference in the numbers of young who voted YES (vast majority) to older (a minority). I think it's the old who need to be convinced, and when the British government has such a stranglehold on the media/press it's very difficult to convince older people they're just reading or seeing anti-SNP/anti-Independence/anti-Scottish propaganda.


As Americans know better than anyone – never underestimate these 3 things:

1. The power of the Press to influence voting. And in Scotland we basically don’t have that foundation (or at least one that isn’t fundamentally based in London or with its interests in appeasing Westminster).

2. The power of Personality in politics. Alex Salmond rubs a lot of people up the wrong way (he also inspires and pushes people; a type of person who’s always going to have as many detractors as he does supporters). Nicola Sturgeon, on the other hand, is someone I think has the personality, the drive, the likeability, the sense to rally people in a way Alex Salmond may split people. It will be interesting to see what happens in next year’s elections.

3. The power of people to be fucking stupid. They don’t care about politics. They don’t care about voting. Every politician is the same. He looks funny, she talks funny, they seem a couple of arseholes. Blah blah fucking blah. There’s always going to be that person, and there’s a lot of them everywhere. Making these people care and get involved in this, whether just from the simple act of voting, or rolling up their sleeves and chucking fliers through letterboxes, could be the deciding factor. And it seems, to me at least, that people in Scotland actually care about their country again – the IndyREF has certainly stirred up some passions.


Oof, jeez. Got carried away a bit there. I have to go for now, but anything else you want me to discuss just fire it at me. I’m sure I’ve said something stupid, or something someone disagrees with, but I’ve said my piece, and with that, I’ll leave you with this…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3eVonYn7eg
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Offline Idlewilder

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #126 on: October 23, 2015, 03:59:13 PM »
Longest post I think I have ever written, btw.

Guess I do give two shits about something in this country.  ;)
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Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #127 on: October 23, 2015, 05:49:40 PM »
Longest post I think I have ever written, btw.

Guess I do give two shits about something in this country.  ;)

Loved your post, @Idlewilder. When I was working at my family's restaurant, I often brought up the Independence topic with those Scottish customers that really enjoyed talking. I noticed that the opinions varied greatly depending on the professional background of these people, although, as you said, you could never be completely sure how someone stood on the issue, as there are too many factors to take into account.

In a group of 10 golfers from Perth, 7 were for and the other 3 against independence. What touched me most was that everyone had only one regret about the whole thing: friends had been lost because of this issue, as many people take it very much to heart, and some would turn the debate into a "us vs them (traitors)".

Still, looking forward to see how things develop in the future. England itself is changing, with a much more left-leaning Labour party, and that may recover some of the ground lost to the SNP in Scotland - although, from what I've read, it seems the Scottish aren't that keen on Corbyn.

Anyway, despite being a politician, I wish there was someone like Nichola Sturgeon in Portuguese politics. Our country is going through one of the most turbulent times in recent democratic history, all because of the elections that took place earlier this month with surprising results, and I'd be much more hopeful if we just had a really strong personality in current politics, someone who just stood by what he/she believed, and not what the European Union decreed as right and wrong.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #128 on: October 23, 2015, 05:53:21 PM »
Okay this is going to be interesting.

For the record I am as English as most Scots are Scottish. I have Polish, Russian, Georgian and Italian blood in my near ancestors. On my mothers side my lineage goes back to A long way and is likely as varied. I can also legitimately wear Campbell and Thompson Tartan through my bloodline on my fathers side, not that I am likely to do so, as I identify as British. I feel an Independent Scotland should exist if that is what Scotland wants,
However there can be no bailout from the UK if it fails. I do not trust the SNP to deliver this in a responsible manner as being independent appears to be more important than being functional. English nationalism is synonymous with fascism and football hooliganism while Scottish nationalism seems to be something to be applauded.

Scotland was brought into the union as England received a Scots king, James the fourth of Scotland became James the first of England. Elizabeth dying was an act of providence for Scotland as the Nation was bankrupt at the time and the Scottish pound was worth less than a fifth of an English one. The gold content had been diluted repeatedly to create more coin. English gold resolved the issue in this case and again later when the country bankrupted itself trying to establish a colony/empire of it's own.

It is inevitable that Scotland will become independent. The demographics show a vast majority of under 25's voted for and a lot of those approaching retirement or retired voted against. It emerged recently that the trigger point for another referendum will be when 60% are in favour. This assumes the SNP maintain their control of the majority of seats to bring this about. As NO voters die off it becomes inevitable.

The Labour party in the UK held it's core seats in Scotland since I have been able to vote and safe seats in Scotland have lead to giving us both Blair, who I can only view as a war criminal who has evaded justice and Brown whose treasonous actions led to destroying the pensions of a vast number of UK workers and British gold being traded for paper to support the Euro so I am no great fan of having foreign politicians foisted on me which is a favourite argument put up by Scots for Scots independence.

At the time of the referendum Alax Salmond was offering the moon on a stick. An utterly unworkable economic policy which was why he was determined that Scots currency would remain the English pound. Oil was also $112 dollars a barrel at the time. Six months later it was $36. Had Scotland become Independent I do not believe it would have an economy at all or everything would be owned by the banks.
Scots independence is likely to mean a generation of hardship, but long term may work out very well for the nation. EU membership is unlikely as Spain will veto as it has no wish to see an independent Catalonia and wont like the precident, but a trading partnership with Scandinavia could work.

85% of the oil Scotland would receive also falls within Shetlands waters and there were very real calls for Shetland to hold an independence referendum should Scotland become so. Presumably because the locals are not keen to see their oil tax spent in Glasgow and Edinburgh. This is too volatile a resource to base an economy around.

Yesterday there was a successful vote to prevent Scots and Welsh MP's voting on English matters. SNP MP Pete Wisharts response was SNP MP's was they are now 2nd class citizens. This is the sort of inflammatory nonsense The English are expected to tolerate.
Scotland is over represented in westminster and has more per head spent on them than anywhere else in the UK. The exceptionalism is staggering. The victim card is always played. Independent or not The English will always be to blame for Scotlands woes.
English MP's have not been able to vote on Scots matters for years decades, but the idea of the English who make up the vast majority of the population of the UK actually having an uninterrupted say in their country is something to be fought.

For those of us in England who have children we will of course remember 41 Scots labour MPs voting with the Labour party to impose university tuition fees on the English. Just enough to make a difference. These fees do not apply to the Scots or Welsh and are currently capped at £9,000 a year.
so perhaps that is another good reason the English would like the Scots out of our politics.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 06:15:26 PM by Rostum »

Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #129 on: October 23, 2015, 10:05:18 PM »
So glad this is in its own thread, and that we're all good with contrasting points of view.

Thanks all three for comments. Very interesting and enlightening for the uninformed (me).
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #130 on: October 24, 2015, 01:30:04 AM »
Part of the problem that came out of the referendum is there are a sizable number of idiots on both sides.
English who believe we should chuck the Scots out of the union and Scots who are desperate to get one over on the English. So there is a lot of noise around the whole issue and lots of cawing and point scoring by MP's.
My politics actually align closest with the SNP's, however I am underwhelmed by what I saw in the run up to the referendom and as stated feel that Scotland had a lucky escape.

The SNP were meeting in a pub 35 years ago to now be the dominant force in Scots politics is an incredible achievement. I think that now Salmond has stepped down and the rash promises have stopped they have a very real chance to improve the lives of the people of Scotland. However if they just maintain the status quo as Labour would have done I can see them losing support rapidly.

Just to put it in perspective the (partial)Genral election results

Conservative 330 seats         11,300,109 votes cast
Labour          232 seats           9,347,324 votes cast
SNP                58 seats           1,454,436 votes cast
UKIP                 1 seat            3,881,099 votes cast

UKIP who are to the right of the conservatives and the left of your politics in the USA gained a single seat for their couple of million extra votes over the SNP, such is UK system. So when the news is talking about an SNP landslide it is a comparitively small number of votes they are talking about. The population of Scotland is below 5.5 Million.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2015, 01:44:58 AM by Rostum »

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #131 on: October 24, 2015, 01:51:27 AM »
Had to do a project the other day, and stumbled across this.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/
Just... Whah? :O
Tell me I;m not the only one who sees a problem with this. If I am, just wow. but otherwise, I do not understand how the majority of that sounds like a good idea. Some things, I don't agree with, but I can understand. Tearing apart families sucks, but if you had just come here legally in the first place, or taken advantage of the 3 years you had to do so... But others. Decreasing border patrol? Whah? Legalizing everyone, no matter what? Huh?
So in other words... Hi. I'm a terrorist. Looks like I'll be headed to America if this guy gets elected.
Any of you guys on here not from America, if you ever want to come here without the paperwork, just catch a flight to Mexico if this happens. We will have thrown wide the gates to the castle keep.
Despite my passion, I would seriously love to hear from someone, if anyone, who would be willing to vote for this guy only based on his immigration policy. I am always willing to listen, and will keep my mind open if logical reasons are presented. Or, if this is too touchy, we do not have to discuss it. Just figured I would throw it out there.

Offline Hedin

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #132 on: October 24, 2015, 03:16:20 AM »
So in other words... Hi. I'm a terrorist. Looks like I'll be headed to America if this guy gets elected.

No....just no.  All of the 9/11 hijackers had visas to get into the US and all arrived via international flights.  There were other potential hijackers that did not receive visas and yet none of them tried to enter illegally.  The border has been relatively open for decades and yet there is no evidence that any terrorist has come in that way. There are millions of undocumented immigrants in the country now but yet we have yet to have any international terrorist action since 9/11. Even in the small chance that they did they wouldn't care about immigration status, they would just be here to do one thing.  To say that a more open immigration policy would mean the terrorists get in is just fear mongering of the worst kind, the immigration policy would have absolutely nothing to do with any of that.

Personally I think someone who is willing to risk everything to come into this country to work and make a better life for themselves and their families is worth having here.  Plus 11 million undocumented workers means there are 11 million people not generating tax revenue for the services they are using every day so it would be a great economic benefit to get them signed up.  You're never going to be able to stop people from coming in but if you make it easier more people will follow the rules and that would also take a large chunk of income from the cartels.

The main reason why immigration policy is so difficult is not because we're afraid of who is coming in (that's just a scare tactic) but because of pure politics.  Hispanics generally tend to vote primarily Democrat and Republicans are worried about what would happen if all of the sudden there were 11 million new voters that the majority would not vote for them.  They don't care about the people and what sort of life they came from, all they care is about is trying to maintain their power base.  I'm also not going to pretend all of the Democrats are acting out of the goodness of their heart either, they know if they champion this they'll benefit as well.

Offline Rukaio_Alter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #133 on: October 24, 2015, 03:17:37 AM »
Had to do a project the other day, and stumbled across this.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/
Just... Whah? :O
Tell me I;m not the only one who sees a problem with this.

Nope. Seems fairly reasonable to me.

Quote
Tearing apart families sucks, but if you had just come here legally in the first place, or taken advantage of the 3 years you had to do so...

Have you maybe considered the reason that these people are coming to America illegally is because, you know, they can't come there legally? And not because they're criminals or lazy but because the (pretty outdated) US immigration laws make it impossible for a lot of otherwise innocent and hard-working people to immigrate. I have no doubt that, if they could, the vast majority of immigrants would choose to enter the country legally. But they can't. Hence why they're illegal.

Quote
Decreasing border patrol? Whah?
Um... but the webpage doesn't actually say that. It simply says he 'Opposes tying immigration reform to the building of a border fence.' Aka, adding more security.

And that's perfectly reasonable. Adding more border security really isn't going to do that much and is largely just waste of money. People will still get through. Maybe you'll put off a few but a lot of these people are genuinely desperate and have nowhere else to go. Putting up a few guards isn't going to stop them. And, indeed, it may force them into the hands of criminal traffickers, many of whom may end up exploiting them in far worse ways.

The only reason border security gets brought up so often is because it's one of those 'common sense' measures that politicians full of hot air use to make it look like they're making a difference when they're really not.

Now I'm not trying to say that border security should be done away with all together, or even that the US has the perfect amount at the moment, but it's a very debatable issue and not one that should be tied with immigration reform that really is necessary at the moment.

Quote
Legalizing everyone, no matter what? Huh?
So in other words... Hi. I'm a terrorist. Looks like I'll be headed to America if this guy gets elected.
Any of you guys on here not from America, if you ever want to come here without the paperwork, just catch a flight to Mexico if this happens. We will have thrown wide the gates to the castle keep.
Yeah, funnily enough, it doesn't say that either. The closest it says is giving legal status to people who are already there. People and children who have already lived there for a decent period of time, enough to make a life for themselves. People for whom it would probably cost far too much to deport and would probably do more bad than good. Not people who come there in the future. So it's not going to be an open doors policy.

Second of all, even taking into account that it's referring to people already in the country, it's not going be a case of 'Legalising everyone, no matter what.' Just because a large number are, it doesn't mean all will. I'm fairly certain known serious criminals and terrorists are going to be shipped out or locked up. And if anything, this policy helps make you safer because, in order for an immigrant to become legal, they're obviously going to need to supply details like name and address. Thus, if it's easier to keep track of any potential than if they were constantly going undocumented and trying not to get found and deported like basically every other illegal immigrant.

Quote
Despite my passion, I would seriously love to hear from someone, if anyone, who would be willing to vote for this guy only based on his immigration policy. I am always willing to listen, and will keep my mind open if logical reasons are presented. Or, if this is too touchy, we do not have to discuss it. Just figured I would throw it out there.
I'm not an American myself (although I have a fair knowledge of your political system) but yeah, I'd vote for Sanders. Admittedly not only based on his immigration policy (since I'm not the kind of guy who votes for someone based on just one issue), but he has a lot of favourable policies I agree with and he isn't as obviously sucking up to big corrupt businesses like most other candidates.

Honestly though, as long as anyone from the Republican Clown show doesn't get in, I'd probably be happy.
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Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #134 on: October 24, 2015, 08:51:26 AM »
It's a bit strange that the US (former melting pot of nations, 99% of the citizens immigrants or descending from immigrants, ...) have such a strict immigration policy.

Do you know how many Syrian refugees the United States took in in the last four years?
The same amount my hometown took in this August...
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