October 15, 2019, 05:11:22 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 267344 times)

Offline night_wrtr

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2015, 05:11:42 PM »
I'm all in favor of mandatory training and periodic proficiency testing for gun licensees -- and I think it's a national disgrace that we're handing out licenses to people who have been diagnosed with severe mental illnesses. (Note that right now, this is bureaucratic incompetence, not a political disagreement -- see the Washington Navy Yard shooter.)  Heck, I don't own a gun, have no interest in owning one, and no relevant training or experience (Well... I have had a gun pointed at me, but that's an entirely different story).  But a blanket ban on guns, whether local or global, just ensures that only the wrong people have guns when the shooting starts.

Agreed.

I understand the need for having protection, but something I don't understand is the need for military style weaponry. AK-47's and AR's for instance. There is no reason I can think of that a civilian needs access to those kind of weapons.

Offline night_wrtr

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2015, 05:14:53 PM »


But a blanket ban on guns, whether local or global, just ensures that only the wrong people have guns when the shooting starts.
But that's the point. Nowhere else in the world starts the shooting as often and as deadly as in the United States of Trigger Happiness...

Not disagreeing. I wish the government could figure out a solution to this entirely. Something that would be interesting to see would be how many gun owners are actually registered to their weapons. Part of the problem is tracking where these guns are, as I am sure a large portion are illegally owned.


Offline ClintACK

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2015, 05:42:48 PM »
I'm all in favor of mandatory training and periodic proficiency testing for gun licensees -- and I think it's a national disgrace that we're handing out licenses to people who have been diagnosed with severe mental illnesses. (Note that right now, this is bureaucratic incompetence, not a political disagreement -- see the Washington Navy Yard shooter.)  Heck, I don't own a gun, have no interest in owning one, and no relevant training or experience (Well... I have had a gun pointed at me, but that's an entirely different story).  But a blanket ban on guns, whether local or global, just ensures that only the wrong people have guns when the shooting starts.

Agreed.

I understand the need for having protection, but something I don't understand is the need for military style weaponry. AK-47's and AR's for instance. There is no reason I can think of that a civilian needs access to those kind of weapons.

Can you define AR?  Automatic weapons *are* illegal.

It's a bit like saying that sure we shouldn't ban cars, but sports cars are dangerous, because they cause people to speed which leads to more deadly accidents.  Then the politicians ban racing stripes and wonder why the accident numbers don't come down.



But a blanket ban on guns, whether local or global, just ensures that only the wrong people have guns when the shooting starts.
But that's the point. Nowhere else in the world starts the shooting as often and as deadly as in the United States of Trigger Happiness...

Again: you hear that statistic all the time.  It's just not true. 

You need to start throwing in qualifiers like "civilized world" or "first world" to exclude basically all of South America and Africa to get there.  Then you have to exclude acts of violence that are classified as terrorist acts or civil wars or rebellions.

And that's before you get to the bigger question of whether a murder victim cares whether it's a gun or a pipe bomb or a thrown rock that does him in.  Using the bulk "intentional homicide rate", the U.S. drops to 111th in the world, right in line with a lot of eastern Europe.

There's clearly a difference between the homicide rate -- gun-related or otherwise -- in the U.S. versus western Europe.  But there seems to be something cultural going on, rather than a difference in legal regimes.  Even if you remove all the gun deaths from the U.S. statistics, we still have more intentional homicides per capita than the U.K., for example.

I want to say that the disparity is about drug gangs and the like -- but you've got those in the U.K. too, don't you?  So I don't know.

Offline night_wrtr

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2015, 06:19:19 PM »

Can you define AR?  Automatic weapons *are* illegal.

It's a bit like saying that sure we shouldn't ban cars, but sports cars are dangerous, because they cause people to speed which leads to more deadly accidents.  Then the politicians ban racing stripes and wonder why the accident numbers don't come down.

Theoretically, they are banned. But you can go right now and buy a semi-auto AK-47. It's not hard to convert into an automatic. (Well, maybe it is, but there are many people that know what they are doing.)

AR-15 for example. I know several people that have them. I think there is a line in the sand between comparing a sports car to a military rifle. That's basically what AR's are. Why do civilians need military weapons? I see no reason.

AR's are probably the most widespread rifle on the market. Like I said, I know several that have them. I have shot them. They are fun, for sure. I am all about the right to bear arms, but I also think we should look at options for limiting widespread access to the ferrari's of the gun world.


« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 06:21:37 PM by night_wrtr »

Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2015, 06:44:46 PM »
I don't want to be drawn into this, but this guy has got the right point of view ;)

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Offline ClintACK

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2015, 07:37:05 PM »

Theoretically, they are banned. But you can go right now and buy a semi-auto AK-47. It's not hard to convert into an automatic. (Well, maybe it is, but there are many people that know what they are doing.)

AR-15 for example. I know several people that have them. I think there is a line in the sand between comparing a sports car to a military rifle. That's basically what AR's are. Why do civilians need military weapons? I see no reason.

I'd say it's exactly the other way around -- I'm being unfair to ARs in comparing them to sports cars.

Lots of people die in car accidents involving sports cars every single year.

When was the last time someone was killed in the U.S. with an automatic weapon -- whether natively so or illegally modified?

I think the last confirmed case was before Al Capone went to prison -- but I could well be wrong.  The squishy way people use terms like "assault weapon" make it really hard to dig out of search engines, and the main places I look for good statistics (the DoJ and CDC have pretty good databases on violent crime and deaths, respectively) don't break out the kinds of weapons involved beyond distinguishing handguns from rifles. 

The closest thing I can find is the North Hollywood shootout, about twenty years back.  The two bank robbers were armed with rifles illegally modified to be automatic, but despite the ridiculously high number of bullets fired, no one was killed by the bad guys.


(My main point here is that so-called "assault weapon" bans seem like a stupid way to address the problem of gun violence -- since the vast majority of gun deaths involve handguns.  Drug legalization and anti-gang policies seem like they'd do far more to reduce gun deaths, and don't get me started on our mental health policy.)


"Why do civilians need military weapons?" is a whole different can of worms -- what's a military weapon?  Cruise missiles?  I see your point.  The most effective personal-defense sidearm money can buy?  The question then answers itself, for civilians with a need for personal defense.  Obviously you mean something in between, but I don't think "military" is enough information to make it a well-formed question, much less something to write into law.

In general, in the life I'm leading, I don't need any kind of firearm.  But I don't know the life that every other American leads, and I'm inclined to resist strong declarations about what other people don't need, when they seem to think they do.


Offline night_wrtr

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2015, 08:04:10 PM »
Valid points throughout.

Always a tough topic, but one we desperately need to have at many levels. I don't know what can fix the problem, but like you said, it's more than guns. What we can do about it that will make a true impact, that's the million dollar question.

Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #67 on: October 03, 2015, 06:05:54 AM »
994 mass shootings in 1,004 days.

1,260 deaths and 3,606 injuries. Didn't realise it was that bad over there. Absolutely ridiculous.
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Offline night_wrtr

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #68 on: October 03, 2015, 08:24:18 PM »
994 mass shootings in 1,004 days.

1,260 deaths and 3,606 injuries. Didn't realise it was that bad over there. Absolutely ridiculous.

Unbelievable.

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #69 on: October 04, 2015, 11:09:39 PM »
So, Portuguese parliamentary elections took place today. And, after four years of austerity, the same political parties were re-elected, despite losing their majority.

It's a really grim day. Portugal lost half a million of its active population to emigration during these last four years, and it seems that my fellow countrymen and women decided that this was the way to continue.

There's still the possibility of a political crisis taking place over the next few weeks / months, as we will have a minority government against a majority of the three major political parties from the Left.

I'm very happy that I got my tickets to Scotland with me. This was a result that I really didn't expect, and that made me greatly disappointed in my fellow citizens  :(
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Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #70 on: October 06, 2015, 09:43:12 AM »
So, Portuguese parliamentary elections took place today. And, after four years of austerity, the same political parties were re-elected, despite losing their majority.

It's a really grim day. Portugal lost half a million of its active population to emigration during these last four years, and it seems that my fellow countrymen and women decided that this was the way to continue.

There's still the possibility of a political crisis taking place over the next few weeks / months, as we will have a minority government against a majority of the three major political parties from the Left.

I'm very happy that I got my tickets to Scotland with me. This was a result that I really didn't expect, and that made me greatly disappointed in my fellow citizens  :(
I don't understand why people still vote for the selfish idiots that are in charge of most western countries.  :-\

Meanwhile, in 'Murrca, an 11-year-old boy shot and killed an eight-year-old girl with a shotgun because she would not show him her puppies. If only she had had a gun, then this tragedy would not have happened.

Right?  ???

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Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #71 on: October 06, 2015, 11:45:55 AM »
@Raptori, you finally understand the usefulness of carrying.

Now, the only problem I have left is those people who think we should carry our guns concealed. Because, really, if the point is to avoid violence, then shouldn't we be showing our wares? It would be sort of like having nukes, but not letting any one know. They'd be tempted to press the button, and you'd just be reacting.

Of course, only law-abiding citizens would carry openly. Bad guys would see their gun and get the drop on them first. Therefore, you should carry concealed. The uncertainty will hold them off.

Maybe the answer is to have people with last names beginning A-M carry concealed on Mondays and N-Z carry concealed on Tuesdays. On your off day, you carry openly. Then it rotates. Since the bad guys don't know anyone's last name, it's all good.

Except when there's a family reunion. OK, at that point, we...............
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Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #72 on: October 06, 2015, 11:50:23 AM »
@Raptori, you finally understand the usefulness of carrying.

Now, the only problem I have left is those people who think we should carry our guns concealed. Because, really, if the point is to avoid violence, then shouldn't we be showing our wares? It would be sort of like having nukes, but not letting any one know. They'd be tempted to press the button, and you'd just be reacting.

Of course, only law-abiding citizens would carry openly. Bad guys would see their gun and get the drop on them first. Therefore, you should carry concealed. The uncertainty will hold them off.

Maybe the answer is to have people with last names beginning A-M carry concealed on Mondays and N-Z carry concealed on Tuesdays. On your off day, you carry openly. Then it rotates. Since the bad guys don't know anyone's last name, it's all good.

Except when there's a family reunion. OK, at that point, we...............
Or perhaps everyone should have (at least) one openly visible gun, probably a handgun, and then something else concealed? That way the visible gun would be a deterrent, but everyone would know that they don't know how heavily armed the other people around them are. That would obviously go hand-in-hand with increased ownership of semi-auto and other more powerful weapons. I'm thinking weapons stores should stock up on bazookas.
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Offline Henry Dale

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #73 on: October 06, 2015, 12:10:46 PM »
Or we do something sensible and don't give guns to people in the first place. You don't need them for anything anyway.

Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2015, 12:15:07 PM »
Or we do something sensible and don't give guns to people in the first place. You don't need them for anything anyway.
Does not compute. Surely an arms race is the most sensible thing imaginable.
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