July 11, 2020, 08:41:34 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 337697 times)

Online Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3615 on: June 30, 2020, 12:14:58 AM »
So apparently Putin has been handing out bounties to Taliban fighters for killing US troops. And Trump knew about this and neither did nor said anything.

In any, ANY, sane situation this would be a typhoon of outrage that utterly destroys him and everyone in this rat bastard's vicinity. But we're NOT in a sane situation, and at this point it wouldn't surprise me in the least if people just carry on in a week as if nothing happened.

Holy shit.
I'll notify your next of kin... that you sucked!

Offline hexa

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3616 on: June 30, 2020, 02:48:55 AM »
Russia occupied Afghanistan in the 1980s, and committed crimes against the Afghans.  The Taliban hate the Russians.  Osama bin Laden first went to Afghanistan to fight the Russian occupation

There may have been a bounty or two, but most of the Taliban would never work faithfully for the Russians

Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3617 on: June 30, 2020, 04:03:44 AM »
My own thoughts and fears tell me things are likely to start getting scary here in the US. The white supremecist side is going to take advantage of the fireworks on the 4th to wreak some violence. Buckle up and hunker down. My 3 cents.
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Offline cupiscent

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3618 on: June 30, 2020, 05:03:42 AM »
I agree with Magnus on this, if you end capitalism then what do you replace it with?

Look, it's a good point, and I wrote my previous comment in a state of deep grumpiness about a number of things. And I was thinking specifically of "capitalism" as the ethos of "profit above all". So much of the last few centuries has been about profit from exploitation, and that is simply not sustainable, and I think we are very near the end of its lifecycle - simply because we are nearing the point where no one will be able to afford the produced goods because they are not paid enough in their jobs producing said goods.

I think we are already seeing an end to that breed of capitalism, with an example being how "ethical" goods are pushing out middle-ground retail here in Australia. Things need to be either sustainably produced and high quality, or ultra cheap - Target is cutting its stores heavily because people are either buying cheaper stuff, or better stuff.

Regulation is key. Regulation is necessary to prevent that exploitation. But it needs the mindset shift that exploitation - and profit above all - is no longer acceptable.

Offline Caith

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3619 on: June 30, 2020, 09:10:59 AM »
I agree with Magnus on this, if you end capitalism then what do you replace it with?

Look, it's a good point, and I wrote my previous comment in a state of deep grumpiness about a number of things. And I was thinking specifically of "capitalism" as the ethos of "profit above all". So much of the last few centuries has been about profit from exploitation, and that is simply not sustainable, and I think we are very near the end of its lifecycle - simply because we are nearing the point where no one will be able to afford the produced goods because they are not paid enough in their jobs producing said goods.

I think we are already seeing an end to that breed of capitalism, with an example being how "ethical" goods are pushing out middle-ground retail here in Australia. Things need to be either sustainably produced and high quality, or ultra cheap - Target is cutting its stores heavily because people are either buying cheaper stuff, or better stuff.

Regulation is key. Regulation is necessary to prevent that exploitation. But it needs the mindset shift that exploitation - and profit above all - is no longer acceptable.

Grumpiness is definitely allowed ;) I'm usually bouncing around a triangle of grumpiness, goggling disbelief and incandescent outrage. If ever I'm feeling that everything's fine, I just remind myself that we have the technological fixes to combat the climate change emergency but our leaders choose to do nothing significant about it. I've an awful feelling that the history books will not be kind to the early 21st century (assuming there's anyone around to write them).

 I think you're right that we are at the end of the road for the neo-liberal brand of capitalism. Gorbachev, I think, said that the Chernobyl disaster ushered in the end of the Soviet Union. It may be that the pandemic is neo-liberal capitalism's Chernobyl moment.

That said, ideas can take a long time to die and I don't doubt for a moment that the various establishments that support free-market capitalism will fight tooth and nail to maintain its place as economic orthodoxy. The next few years may be very interesting but not in a good way.

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3620 on: June 30, 2020, 09:29:22 AM »
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.

An over used quote by JMC, but look at every single nation that has replaced capitalism. The result has never been beneficial to the vast majority and the change has been brutal for the most part. I am not a great fan of capitalism but it is the least worst option we have.

Minneapolis has just voted 12-0 to abolish the police. This won't affect the rich as gated communities and private security mean they will be unaffected. Middle class neighbourhoods will cease to exist as flight to other areas will be universal for those who can take the property value loss and the poor get, well nothing except preyed on.

Strangely they didn't cancel the contracts of their private security which the taxpayer pays for.

Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3621 on: June 30, 2020, 09:53:47 AM »
So apparently Putin has been handing out bounties to Taliban fighters for killing US troops. And Trump knew about this and neither did nor said anything.

In any, ANY, sane situation this would be a typhoon of outrage that utterly destroys him and everyone in this rat bastard's vicinity. But we're NOT in a sane situation, and at this point it wouldn't surprise me in the least if people just carry on in a week as if nothing happened.

Holy shit.

Vladimir Putin is, and always has been, the second greatest threat to democracy across the globe. After he took power he bombed Chechnya into submission and forced them under the rule of a man who set up concentration camps for gay people. In 2008 he invaded Georgia for the simple crime of trying to remain a unified country. Then he did the exact same thing to Ukraine and then threw his support behind Syria's mass murdering government that runs a prison system which appears to be mostly staffed by torturers and rapists. And every single time, the American government has done nothing to stop him. If Bush or Obama had ever had the decency to stand up to this monster, Trump might not be president right now. Instead the only one willing to call Putin's bluff is Erdogan, who isn't really much better than he is.

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3622 on: June 30, 2020, 05:37:57 PM »
And yet every election he has one has been declared honest and democratic by outside observers many of whom are American. He has just told the politburo to change the law to ensure he can continue to win elections for the next 16 years.

Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3623 on: June 30, 2020, 06:03:46 PM »
And yet every election he has one has been declared honest and democratic by outside observers many of whom are American. He has just told the politburo to change the law to ensure he can continue to win elections for the next 16 years.

I know he is genuinely popular, though I confess some scepticism as to whether the elections are completely honest and democratic. But to pretty much everyone outside of Russia and several people within it, his rule has been an unmitigated disaster.

Offline cupiscent

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3624 on: July 01, 2020, 03:51:47 AM »
Minneapolis has just voted 12-0 to abolish the police. This won't affect the rich as gated communities and private security mean they will be unaffected. Middle class neighbourhoods will cease to exist as flight to other areas will be universal for those who can take the property value loss and the poor get, well nothing except preyed on.

No, Minneapolis voted 12-0 to "disband its police department and invest in community-based public safety programs". They're going to develop a new strategy about what public safety means, and how best to actually ensure it. A core of Minneapolis police have spoken out heavily against George Floyd's killing, and support police reform.

Offline Magnus Hedén

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3625 on: July 01, 2020, 07:37:40 AM »
@Rostum you're doing the exact thing I wrote about earlier. You're avoiding the previous discussion and moving on to make new unfounded claims. It's not helpful. Do you have any comments on anything I've said? Did you even read it? You posted a link to the BLM manifest, supposedly to prove your point. I challenged that it did. No comments? Do you accept that you were wrong? Do you accept that the information you posted about Minneapolis was incorrect?

Or are you just happy to make a bunch of statements of dubious veracity and move on? I'm genuinely curious.
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Offline Caith

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3626 on: July 01, 2020, 09:01:26 AM »
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.

An over used quote by JMC, but look at every single nation that has replaced capitalism. The result has never been beneficial to the vast majority and the change has been brutal for the most part. I am not a great fan of capitalism but it is the least worst option we have.

Minneapolis has just voted 12-0 to abolish the police. This won't affect the rich as gated communities and private security mean they will be unaffected. Middle class neighbourhoods will cease to exist as flight to other areas will be universal for those who can take the property value loss and the poor get, well nothing except preyed on.

Strangely they didn't cancel the contracts of their private security which the taxpayer pays for.


I'm actually a big fan of capitalism, provided it is the servant of the common good and not a tool used by the 1% to wage class war on the rest of us.

In addition, I would echo Peter Mandelson, when he said that he was intensely relaxed about people getting filthy rich, so long as they pay their taxes. And therein lies a great problem. Many of the 1% go out of their way to avoid pay taxes, thereby denying governments the revenue to spend on the common good. Although they insist on governments supplying infrastructure such roads, policing and justice systems, to support their business endevours. Benefits scroungers by any other name.

Aside from the fact that most of the super-rich became that way, not through earning money, but  through inheriting it. And contribute little in the way of economic activity (if economic activity is defined as the exchange of goods and services), as most of the super rich generate their wealth through unearned income such as rent, interest on investments and financial speculation, rather that making stuff to sell.

Capitalists eh? They give capitalism a bad name.
     

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3627 on: July 01, 2020, 09:42:56 AM »
Sorry Magnus should I speak exclusively to you, or answer posts, am I obliged in any way to do so?
Around dealing with my 48-hour minimum working week and moving my daughter back in I am finding myself lacking the energy and the time. Here you go I was only going to get some sleep anyway.

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Quote from: Rostum on June 26, 2020, 07:41:56 AM

 
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  BLM stands for an end to capitalism an end to police powers an end to the nuclear family and really only cares about black lives when they are ended by whites because racial tension is their business.

Now you're going off the rails misrepresenting the BLM movement so that you can straw man it. Please read up on the movement on the purposes somewhere other than on alt-right blogs. If we're going to have a conversation, you need to approach it with a genuine interest in following the facts, wherever they may take you.

Yes I am totally misrepresenting BLM who are in no way burning American cities at present looting businesses actively creating no police zones which are now the most dangerous real estate in America per capita. I guess the BLM 'what we believe' is an alt right page then. If you choose not to accept what you read that's up to you.
By the way I you read Thomas Sowell (possibly the greatest social scientist of the 20th century) He concluded that children raised in single parent families suffer in 7 (from memory) ways that children from two parent families have an advantage in poverty, education and conviction rate are the three I can remember at this point.
The incidence of single parent black families in America is about a quarter higher than in white families. Yet BLM want to abolish the nuclear family for everyone. Lets drag everyone down to the same level is not a policy I subscribe to.

 Oh I have read up on BLM and its various factions at length  also on who is funding this business.

Nearly 100 million in the last month even money from companies who have had stores burnt out. The Ford foundation a left wing  population control group raised 100 million in 2016 for MFBL a coalition group for the various black lives matter groups here is their manifesto.

https://m4bl.org/policy-platforms/

A fantastic list of demands but not a word about maybe black people not brutalizing each other. After all if you are black you are 11 times more likely to be killed by a black man than a white man in the USA but don't let that awkward fact get in the way.

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Excuse me. Where his court records faked? Were his multiple prison records faked? The 5 years he was imprisoned for this offence I feel are factual. These are a matter of public record in the states, but I guess in the progressive world you can't question BLM or you are a racist.

Yes, George Floyd was a criminal with a violent incident in his past, but his misdeeds have been exaggerated and strengthened with lies by people who also seem to believe that because he was a criminal (who had served his time, no less), he deserved to be strangled to death in the streets.

You can read more about his past and about the events leading up to his death in the Snopes report. He served 5 years in prison aggravated robbery, but the part about a pregnant woman is made up.

I have in no way exaggerated his crimes, not misdeeds with real victims. I use Snopes and will happily go with their verdict, but just because the court documents do not mention whether the victim was pregnant or not doesn't make it a lie it means at this point it is not proven until it is know where that detail originated. Enough serious news ran with it to suggest fact checking is not what it once was or that data came from another source.

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for black-on-black violence, yes, it's true that it's overrepresented in the statistics. There's a long history of contentious debate over that. Racist pundits use it as 'evidence' for homebrew theories of blacks being more violent.

I think I mentioned 11 times more likely to be killed by a black man if you are black. FBI data from 2002-12
I am sure they have all the racist theories about why. Read Sowell he is madly relevant at the moment and some of it you won't want to know about or will disbelieve, but he makes his case well  and is compelling.

Anyone who thinks it is OK to choke out a cuffed man on the ground until they are dead is a psychopath. I don't think you get any dissent from anyone about that. Sadly it's not the first or tenth time it has happened.

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Quote from: Rostum on June 30, 2020, 09:29:22 AM

   
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Minneapolis has just voted 12-0 to abolish the police. This won't affect the rich as gated communities and private security mean they will be unaffected. Middle class neighbourhoods will cease to exist as flight to other areas will be universal for those who can take the property value loss and the poor get, well nothing except preyed on.


No, Minneapolis voted 12-0 to "disband its police department and invest in community-based public safety programs". They're going to develop a new strategy about what public safety means, and how best to actually ensure it. A core of Minneapolis police have spoken out heavily against George Floyd's killing, and support police reform.

So my cousin Nick and his family have nothing to worry about then and the forting up and trying to source ammunition (yeah it's scarce and overpriced atm) is unnecessary. Because community strategy will prevail. I will wait and see but I suspect any decision will end badly and a political shift will occur if the CHAZZ/CHAD becomes Minneapolis' new reality.

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3628 on: July 01, 2020, 10:01:57 AM »
I'm actually a big fan of capitalism, provided it is the servant of the common good and not a tool used by the 1% to wage class war on the rest of us.
I'm a big fan of leopards, just not of those who eat our faces? ;) (Sorry but did the "servant of the common good" part ever exist?)


As Cupi said, it's all about regulation. Unchecked capitalism will destroy this world and everything on it.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3629 on: July 01, 2020, 04:06:56 PM »
This is important.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53246899

 This is about half the population of HK important. I await Chinas response.