March 30, 2020, 06:20:32 PM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 313892 times)

Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3045 on: March 04, 2019, 09:47:35 PM »
I was at a talk held at the uni tonight and an actual member of a far right party showed up and started spewing racial slurs.

Thankfully they kicked him out.

Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3046 on: March 04, 2019, 10:19:07 PM »
I was at a talk held at the uni tonight and an actual member of a far right party showed up and started spewing racial slurs.

Thankfully they kicked him out.

What a pathetic creature.
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Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3047 on: March 05, 2019, 06:17:04 AM »

Hey thanks for all the nice words on the anarchism stuff!

Here's an odd one. I was drawn to this because it breaks the stereotypical image foreigners have of Americans  only being motivated by money. My thought was will he will be branded a socialist (the most terrible word in American) for actually trying to make a small difference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47403579

Or you could be this poor guy in LA.  While rezoning in favor of big developers and pushing us all into a housing crisis, they've devoted millions to "fight homelessness" with all that money going to.... well not homeless people. And then they do this:

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-tiny-houses-seized-20160224-story.html

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3048 on: March 05, 2019, 07:02:16 AM »
Quote
Or you could be this poor guy in LA.  While rezoning in favor of big developers and pushing us all into a housing crisis, they've devoted millions to "fight homelessness" with all that money going to.... well not homeless people. And then they do this:

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-tiny-houses-seized-20160224-story.html

Cool project but please don't do more than sigh. If you try to address the problem you make the authorities lack of action noticable. Was there not a law in Florida to stop you feeding the homeless?

Lots of dis words come to mind, disengaged, discarded, disenfranchised, discounted and the reason why the world sees America as money obsessed is you count for nothing without it.


Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3049 on: March 07, 2019, 12:11:06 PM »
Full Frontal did an excellent summary of the whole Brexit mess.

I am able to laugh a bit because I'm outside the blast zone, but still. What a mess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDxBN1y5C8o
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3050 on: March 07, 2019, 02:28:48 PM »
Sadly not an excellent summary but an entertaining one the Americans pitching in on American food standards this week have been nearly as amusing.

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3051 on: March 07, 2019, 03:40:45 PM »
Full Frontal did an excellent summary of the whole Brexit mess.

I am able to laugh a bit because I'm outside the blast zone, but still. What a mess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDxBN1y5C8o

This is brilliant. Sad, because it captures the stupidity of it all so well, but very accurate, without getting into the really nasty stuff around immigration and whatnot. Still, I'm always proud to see that entirely blue bob up there, that reminds me that Scotland saw the lies for what they were, and rejected it all so overwhelmingly. And so did Northern Ireland, whose people could face the worst consequences of it all.
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Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3052 on: March 12, 2019, 01:27:21 PM »
Full Frontal did an excellent summary of the whole Brexit mess.

I am able to laugh a bit because I'm outside the blast zone, but still. What a mess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDxBN1y5C8o

This is brilliant. Sad, because it captures the stupidity of it all so well, but very accurate, without getting into the really nasty stuff around immigration and whatnot. Still, I'm always proud to see that entirely blue bob up there, that reminds me that Scotland saw the lies for what they were, and rejected it all so overwhelmingly. And so did Northern Ireland, whose people could face the worst consequences of it all.

Sorry @Saraband but here's where we disagree. Parts of this video actually made me spit my tea out.

Quote
"You may remember us for WW2.  After that shitshow we created the EU and everyone traded freely!" ... "Ireland and Northern Ireland had an open border so they finally stopped kneecaping each other"

You've got to be f**ing kidding me. Ireland and N. Ireland were kneecapping each other? because of their border? There's so much wrong with that I just can't even.
Spoiler for Hiden:
But I will. How about centuries of brutal English colonialism? Police violence? Human rights abuses? Sure there were conflicts between protestants and Catholics inside N. Ireland, but that was very much a legacy of colonial occupation. Seriously how are you gonna have a parade go through your neighborhood celebrating the day your people got colonized? Try that shit in S. Africa. The IRA's targets were often in London how on earth could anyone even say out loud they believed it was a North Ireland vs. South Ireland conflict?? And it wasn't EU membership that ameliorated the conflict, it was the withdrawl of the UK's police state that was terrorizing its own people in N Ireland.  Once N. Ireland was demilitarized, people stopped turning to the IRA as their only recourse for the abuses they endured, and the IRA lost the manpower and financial support it needed to go sell drugs to London schoolchildren and blow up busses. That had absolutely nothing to do with the EU ending borders. WTAF. This pisses me off so much I can't even.

Quote
If May misses her deadline it could cripple industry and imports of food and medicine and reignite violence in Ireland... and strand brits living abroad and spark a global recession.

Seriously on what planet did the magic of trade solve the violence of WW2 and end the conflict in Northern Ireland? 

So sure this idea is built on Kant, but as convenient as it is to get rich off of Kantian peace (aka neocolonialism) trade foments class violence and can be directly related to civil wars, not the least of which being the dissolution of the Balkans.

First off, the EU might have grown out of the ECC, but the Maastricht Treaty turned it into a totally different animal. The EU was founded in 1992, not just after WW2.

While the EU was getting founded, there was a high profile civil war in southern Mexico.  The Zapatistas were upset that instruments of our happy post-WW2 Kantian peace-- the WTO, World Bank, IMF-- as well as new treaties like NAFTA were driving trade into indigenous territory.  Subsistence farmers were kicked off their land so the Lancandon jungle could be be turned into toilet paper by International Paper, then a cattle ranch for McDonald's beef by the governor's cousin. Treasured communal land, over which the second Mexican Revolution was fought, were invalidated, and bodies like the WTO ensured that local environmental and labor laws would be invalidated or the country as a whole would be punished.  So the Zapatistas worked with human rights groups and social justice movements from all over the world, organizing "consultas" in which the anti-globalization movement was born.

By 1999 labor unions, environmentalists, teachers, human rights activists and idk like everyone descended on a WTO meeting in Seattle, shutting it down, even though they were tear gassed, shot in the face with rubber bullets, grandmothers were beaten with batons, countless people went to jail.

https://www.seattlepi.com/local/seattle-history/article/WTO-Riots-Battle-Seattle-1999-anniversary-13431709.php#photo-797493

All over the world, at any WTO, World Bank or G7 meeting, hoards of protesters were there to try shut it down.

Meanwhile, European pro-democracy activists were increasingly disturbed by the EU.  They were of course going on about ending nationalism and whatnot but if you look at the actual structure of the thing, it was essentially Europe's WTO on steroids.  Economic decision-making was now in the hands of a small number of people who were not democratically elected, and who were completely unaccountable. 

Economic regionalization and the reduction of free trade barriers essentially enables the expansion of large-scale patronage networks. Mega corporations of the wealthier countries can now displace your local supplier of food, medicine, toilet paper, whatever.  Small businesses suffer, especially in relatively poorer parts of the region, the cost of living goes up, and protections for the environment, laborers and consumers are eroded (this happened in France) and no one can do anything about it. The economy is restructured from a middle class making a living wage to starving laborers and an increasingly small class of executives profiting off of the management of the poor and their natural resources. Worse, the EU completely eliminates the ability of member countries to address this deepening inequality (Which is why you had riots in Greece over people desperately wanting to leave the EU, and why Spain will not be ever be able to get itself out of the shitter.)

You see the same thing in West Africa. The French essentially forced it all into a common economic zone with a common currency and France benefited. Rich people in Senegal benefited. And guess who suffered? The poorest people in the poorest countries in the world like Niger who were essentially forced into starvation by economic regionalization. These conditions are very much linked to the Tuareg uprising in Mali, Al-Quaeda's activity in Niger, Mali and Algeria and all sorts of subsequent violence that accompany mass starvation.

So yay. Trade.

That said, I'm not sure how Britain would have been negatively affected by the EU, since the UK and Germany seemed to have the most to gain in mass-exploitation and subversion of democracy in the rest of Europe.

For poor people living in the wealthier countries, concern with trade is either a human rights concern, or related to jobs leaving the country. In the US, the manufacturing sector is all but gone, and the unions along with it.  Meanwhile centuries of hard-fought labor rights are easily subverted when a company can just shut down it's local operations and open up in Indonesia using imported Chinese prison-labor. In the 90s, you had a critical mass of poor people who were concerned about this.

I don't know where those people went, now all we've got is "foreigners are stealing our jobs" as the ethos of Brexit (it's a poor conservative battle cry in the US as well. The xenophobes were always there, but in the 90s they weren't equated with the trade conversation) Which liberals identify as obviously racist.  But instead of, idk, pointing out that economic localization could be a good thing and done in a non-racist way, somehow anyone against free trade is now racist, and liberals are the standardbearers of trade.

Between Brexit and the Clinton campaign, since 2016 we have somehow landed in Opposite Land where it's the *liberals* peddling this pro-trade bullshit instead of conservatives! It's like I've just witnessed Orwell's Ministry of Truth establish some doublethink in Newspeak, where idk the whole of the 90s just got erased from the history books and replaced with something else. I feel like I've arrived in one of those comic-book superhero TV shows where they go into the alternate universe where all the good guys have all become super-villains. (Except unlike those shows, the bad guys didn't turn good, they just became even stupider.) It's like a nightmare I can't wake up from.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 01:43:04 PM by J.R. Darewood »

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3053 on: March 12, 2019, 02:25:09 PM »
It might have been a bit simplistic, but the truth is that without a deal, all existing trade deals will disappear in 2 weeks: if you don't think that will cause problems, you're not looking in the right places.

You don't fix the EU from the outside, you need to be part of the team to get your voice heard.

And people are elected: they're called MEP ("Members of European Parliament") and should act just like any other national parliament. If they don't do that, or if elections for MEPs have a super low attendance, that's not the EU's problem, but a problem of the people who are now complaining.

And you don't even address the benefits of freedom of movement for the economy in general.

But I will stop now, because I know I'm not that knowledgeable about the details, and I'm upset enough about the whole brexit thing as it is.
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Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3054 on: March 12, 2019, 03:16:36 PM »
Full Frontal did an excellent summary of the whole Brexit mess.

I am able to laugh a bit because I'm outside the blast zone, but still. What a mess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDxBN1y5C8o

This is brilliant. Sad, because it captures the stupidity of it all so well, but very accurate, without getting into the really nasty stuff around immigration and whatnot. Still, I'm always proud to see that entirely blue bob up there, that reminds me that Scotland saw the lies for what they were, and rejected it all so overwhelmingly. And so did Northern Ireland, whose people could face the worst consequences of it all.

Sorry @Saraband but here's where we disagree. Parts of this video actually made me spit my tea out.

Quote
"You may remember us for WW2.  After that shitshow we created the EU and everyone traded freely!" ... "Ireland and Northern Ireland had an open border so they finally stopped kneecaping each other"

You've got to be f**ing kidding me. Ireland and N. Ireland were kneecapping each other? because of their border? There's so much wrong with that I just can't even.
Spoiler for Hiden:
But I will. How about centuries of brutal English colonialism? Police violence? Human rights abuses? Sure there were conflicts between protestants and Catholics inside N. Ireland, but that was very much a legacy of colonial occupation. Seriously how are you gonna have a parade go through your neighborhood celebrating the day your people got colonized? Try that shit in S. Africa. The IRA's targets were often in London how on earth could anyone even say out loud they believed it was a North Ireland vs. South Ireland conflict?? And it wasn't EU membership that ameliorated the conflict, it was the withdrawl of the UK's police state that was terrorizing its own people in N Ireland.  Once N. Ireland was demilitarized, people stopped turning to the IRA as their only recourse for the abuses they endured, and the IRA lost the manpower and financial support it needed to go sell drugs to London schoolchildren and blow up busses. That had absolutely nothing to do with the EU ending borders. WTAF. This pisses me off so much I can't even.

Quote
If May misses her deadline it could cripple industry and imports of food and medicine and reignite violence in Ireland... and strand brits living abroad and spark a global recession.

Seriously on what planet did the magic of trade solve the violence of WW2 and end the conflict in Northern Ireland? 

So sure this idea is built on Kant, but as convenient as it is to get rich off of Kantian peace (aka neocolonialism) trade foments class violence and can be directly related to civil wars, not the least of which being the dissolution of the Balkans.

First off, the EU might have grown out of the ECC, but the Maastricht Treaty turned it into a totally different animal. The EU was founded in 1992, not just after WW2.

While the EU was getting founded, there was a high profile civil war in southern Mexico.  The Zapatistas were upset that instruments of our happy post-WW2 Kantian peace-- the WTO, World Bank, IMF-- as well as new treaties like NAFTA were driving trade into indigenous territory.  Subsistence farmers were kicked off their land so the Lancandon jungle could be be turned into toilet paper by International Paper, then a cattle ranch for McDonald's beef by the governor's cousin. Treasured communal land, over which the second Mexican Revolution was fought, were invalidated, and bodies like the WTO ensured that local environmental and labor laws would be invalidated or the country as a whole would be punished.  So the Zapatistas worked with human rights groups and social justice movements from all over the world, organizing "consultas" in which the anti-globalization movement was born.

By 1999 labor unions, environmentalists, teachers, human rights activists and idk like everyone descended on a WTO meeting in Seattle, shutting it down, even though they were tear gassed, shot in the face with rubber bullets, grandmothers were beaten with batons, countless people went to jail.

https://www.seattlepi.com/local/seattle-history/article/WTO-Riots-Battle-Seattle-1999-anniversary-13431709.php#photo-797493

All over the world, at any WTO, World Bank or G7 meeting, hoards of protesters were there to try shut it down.

Meanwhile, European pro-democracy activists were increasingly disturbed by the EU.  They were of course going on about ending nationalism and whatnot but if you look at the actual structure of the thing, it was essentially Europe's WTO on steroids.  Economic decision-making was now in the hands of a small number of people who were not democratically elected, and who were completely unaccountable. 

Economic regionalization and the reduction of free trade barriers essentially enables the expansion of large-scale patronage networks. Mega corporations of the wealthier countries can now displace your local supplier of food, medicine, toilet paper, whatever.  Small businesses suffer, especially in relatively poorer parts of the region, the cost of living goes up, and protections for the environment, laborers and consumers are eroded (this happened in France) and no one can do anything about it. The economy is restructured from a middle class making a living wage to starving laborers and an increasingly small class of executives profiting off of the management of the poor and their natural resources. Worse, the EU completely eliminates the ability of member countries to address this deepening inequality (Which is why you had riots in Greece over people desperately wanting to leave the EU, and why Spain will not be ever be able to get itself out of the shitter.)

You see the same thing in West Africa. The French essentially forced it all into a common economic zone with a common currency and France benefited. Rich people in Senegal benefited. And guess who suffered? The poorest people in the poorest countries in the world like Niger who were essentially forced into starvation by economic regionalization. These conditions are very much linked to the Tuareg uprising in Mali, Al-Quaeda's activity in Niger, Mali and Algeria and all sorts of subsequent violence that accompany mass starvation.

So yay. Trade.

That said, I'm not sure how Britain would have been negatively affected by the EU, since the UK and Germany seemed to have the most to gain in mass-exploitation and subversion of democracy in the rest of Europe.

For poor people living in the wealthier countries, concern with trade is either a human rights concern, or related to jobs leaving the country. In the US, the manufacturing sector is all but gone, and the unions along with it.  Meanwhile centuries of hard-fought labor rights are easily subverted when a company can just shut down it's local operations and open up in Indonesia using imported Chinese prison-labor. In the 90s, you had a critical mass of poor people who were concerned about this.

I don't know where those people went, now all we've got is "foreigners are stealing our jobs" as the ethos of Brexit (it's a poor conservative battle cry in the US as well. The xenophobes were always there, but in the 90s they weren't equated with the trade conversation) Which liberals identify as obviously racist.  But instead of, idk, pointing out that economic localization could be a good thing and done in a non-racist way, somehow anyone against free trade is now racist, and liberals are the standardbearers of trade.

Between Brexit and the Clinton campaign, since 2016 we have somehow landed in Opposite Land where it's the *liberals* peddling this pro-trade bullshit instead of conservatives! It's like I've just witnessed Orwell's Ministry of Truth establish some doublethink in Newspeak, where idk the whole of the 90s just got erased from the history books and replaced with something else. I feel like I've arrived in one of those comic-book superhero TV shows where they go into the alternate universe where all the good guys have all become super-villains. (Except unlike those shows, the bad guys didn't turn good, they just became even stupider.) It's like a nightmare I can't wake up from.

I said the video was brilliant, because it captured the Brexit debate, and its fallout politically for the United Kingdom, very well. I thought it was simplistic, but as a sketch in a talk show, I thought it was brilliantly done for its audience. Had it gone into the kind of level of detail which you have gone into in your post, which is perfectly legitimate, it wouldn't be funny nor as popular, so I'm okay with it getting a few facts reduced quite simplistically for comedic purposes.

Having said that, I also think you painted a one-sided version of the EU's role in European history. This continent never endured the peace it did until the establishment of the EEC upon the ruins of WW2. I'm very left-leaning in my political outlook, and so I'm deeply concerned with the effects of globalisation and this supremacy of trade over all else. I'm skeptical of the EU in many regards. But the EU is not going anywhere, and so my position is that we need a movement born from within the EU to call for its reform, to make it more democratic at the very top, ie the Commission, (I still consider it a democratic institution because of the European Parliament).

I don't want Neoliberalism to be triumphant ideology. But Brexit had nothing to do with that - if anything, one of the things fueling Brexit is this idea that the UK will be able to strike its own trade deals across the world, including reducing its european trade standards to allow poorer trade standards with the US. Brexit is a neoliberal scream. It's a cry for the benefits of globalised trade, while ranting against parts of it, like the free movement of people. There was no leftist case made for leaving the EU - the main proponents of all of this are some of the most Right-Wing people in this country, with a few Far-Left individuals who have an ingrained aversion to the EU.

So your argument in the context of Brexit doesn't make much sense to me, because Brexit will heighten all of the concerns you raise about trade and the erosion of workers' and human rights. At least in my view.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 03:57:29 PM by Saraband »
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Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3055 on: March 13, 2019, 02:16:34 AM »
It might have been a bit simplistic, but the truth is that without a deal, all existing trade deals will disappear in 2 weeks: if you don't think that will cause problems, you're not looking in the right places.

You don't fix the EU from the outside, you need to be part of the team to get your voice heard.

And people are elected: they're called MEP ("Members of European Parliament") and should act just like any other national parliament. If they don't do that, or if elections for MEPs have a super low attendance, that's not the EU's problem, but a problem of the people who are now complaining.

And you don't even address the benefits of freedom of movement for the economy in general.

But I will stop now, because I know I'm not that knowledgeable about the details, and I'm upset enough about the whole brexit thing as it is.

@ScarletBea you sound pretty knowledgeable to me! And @Saraband I'm with you on the point you made about constraints on Britian's trade deals with third world (or developing if you buy into that ideology) countries.  I also mentioned that the EU really benefited the UK and Germany (just at the expense of everyone else) so I'm with you both on the part where Brexit, especially this kind of Brexit, is not good for Britain.

As for labor rights in the context of trade regionalization and the EU (but not Brexit specifically), these articles on EU union-busting are more-or-less where I was coming from:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/26/why-france-labour-reforms-proved-so-contentious
https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/02/02/eu-imposes-anti-union-law-on-greece/
I have friends in France and Spain who are super incensed about a lot of things the EU has undone in their countries, and the EU's treatment of Greece is a well-documented tragedy in activisty circles.

So my beef isn't with Brexit per se, so much as this image of the EU as some sort of great improvement on domestic environmental and labor rights. They said the same thing about NAFTA and basically every other trade deal. They weren't, it isn't, and it won't be so long as it is structured in such a way so as to take democratic control over trade, labor, safety, and environment away from people.

Spoiler for Hiden:
haha... unless perhaps it's British conservatives they're taking control away from... which seems to be what you're saying the case in Britain.

The part of the video that threw me into a rage was that association with trade and peace. Especially the Ireland part. That was what made me absolutely furious. The rest of it was pretty funny.  But that Ireland thing still has me seething.

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3056 on: March 13, 2019, 10:17:24 AM »
But contemporary history recognises the key role played by the EU in bringing peace to Ireland. It's not just about trade (movement of goods) per se, but the free movement of people without border checks. That was one of the most contentious issues of the Troubles, the checkpoints, and the open borders facilitated by the EU were key in solving it. Also, the EU is one of the co-signors of the Good Friday Agreement, and that was part of its success - Irish Republicans were never too trustworthy of the UK in the long term (to be fair, the rhetoric of Brexit has proved those fears correct), so it was important to have a third signor that also served as a mediator between Ireland and the UK.

Again, the video may be simplistic for comedic purposes, but I don't think they're wrong on the Northern Irish issue. Just go and read Northern Irish political commentators since the Brexit vote, and you'll see that many of them are deeply worried that by leaving the EU, the UK may be putting the Good Friday Agreement at risk.
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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3057 on: March 13, 2019, 11:32:10 PM »
But contemporary history recognises the key role played by the EU in bringing peace to Ireland. It's not just about trade (movement of goods) per se, but the free movement of people without border checks. That was one of the most contentious issues of the Troubles, the checkpoints, and the open borders facilitated by the EU were key in solving it. Also, the EU is one of the co-signors of the Good Friday Agreement, and that was part of its success - Irish Republicans were never too trustworthy of the UK in the long term (to be fair, the rhetoric of Brexit has proved those fears correct), so it was important to have a third signor that also served as a mediator between Ireland and the UK.

Again, the video may be simplistic for comedic purposes, but I don't think they're wrong on the Northern Irish issue. Just go and read Northern Irish political commentators since the Brexit vote, and you'll see that many of them are deeply worried that by leaving the EU, the UK may be putting the Good Friday Agreement at risk.

Those are all good points, but it does not excuse a woman with an English accent claiming that the conflict in Ireland was North and South Ireland "kneecapping each other" over a "border" as if the abuses her people inflicted for centuries had nothing to do with the conflict or it's resolution-- as if the UK wasn't even a party to the conflict and it was just Ireland in conflict with itself!!! Its the erasure of a history of colonialism by a colonizer.

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3058 on: March 14, 2019, 08:13:33 AM »
But contemporary history recognises the key role played by the EU in bringing peace to Ireland. It's not just about trade (movement of goods) per se, but the free movement of people without border checks. That was one of the most contentious issues of the Troubles, the checkpoints, and the open borders facilitated by the EU were key in solving it. Also, the EU is one of the co-signors of the Good Friday Agreement, and that was part of its success - Irish Republicans were never too trustworthy of the UK in the long term (to be fair, the rhetoric of Brexit has proved those fears correct), so it was important to have a third signor that also served as a mediator between Ireland and the UK.

Again, the video may be simplistic for comedic purposes, but I don't think they're wrong on the Northern Irish issue. Just go and read Northern Irish political commentators since the Brexit vote, and you'll see that many of them are deeply worried that by leaving the EU, the UK may be putting the Good Friday Agreement at risk.

Those are all good points, but it does not excuse a woman with an English accent claiming that the conflict in Ireland was North and South Ireland "kneecapping each other" over a "border" as if the abuses her people inflicted for centuries had nothing to do with the conflict or it's resolution-- as if the UK wasn't even a party to the conflict and it was just Ireland in conflict with itself!!! Its the erasure of a history of colonialism by a colonizer.

Now that I absolutely agree with. And England may put it all at risk through a recklessly hard Brexit.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3059 on: March 14, 2019, 12:20:01 PM »
England not the UK? Submitting to an unchanging (despite what May would have us believe) deal dictated by Eurocrats concerned as Peat pointed out with punishing the UK over any deal that actually cuts ties. Presumably May will have a great career in Europe following her inability to do her Job here.

Politics is what you make it and I am very forgiving of those wonderful American allies who funded, supplied and trained terrorists of both religious persuasions to allow them to run protection rackets at home for 25+ years and a lot of kneecapping of Irish youth went on far more than there were shootings or bombings. A certain amount of control has to be exercised if your intent is to strike terror into the civilian population after all.
As for the IRA there were about 600 actively involved from the 70's to it's supposed dissolution. When the guns went away the kneecapping increased.

As for atrocities there are certainly some throughout the last 1000 years of Irish history but fewer than are in local lore and far fewer than were brought up when the tin was rattled in Boston Pubs. I would say the greatest repression in Ireland's history is religion and a moderate churchman is hard to find in both the South and North

Care to talk about the bones America is built on? Plenty of atrocity there after all and that's modern history for the main part.