October 15, 2019, 02:52:46 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 267339 times)

Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3030 on: February 26, 2019, 10:46:31 AM »
I'm kinda with Rostum on this one. If the ethnicity isn't necessary to the point in hand, it probably shouldn't be brought up - like in the original case. That said, I was also raised on the "You can say whatever you like about your own race" principle.

That said - having spent a lot of time in Western PA recently - I don't think they're really imagining it being a worse world than their parents got. And while there is plenty of racism there, they don't particularly blame immigrants for things being worse.
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Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3031 on: February 27, 2019, 10:30:11 AM »
In UK related news, a Scottish newspaper today published the McCrone Report in full, a document produced in the 1970's, at the time when the huge oil reserves were discovered in the North Sea, and which was kept secret for decades due to its significant implications.

It shows that, at the time, the higher circles of the British establishment realised that Scotland's economy would actually benefit from independence, and that the debate for independence would have to be fought on political & cultural grounds from then on (these are part of the conclusions in the report itself, not mine).

It's a fascinating historical document, for anyone interested: https://www.thenational.scot/news/17461396.the-big-unionist-cover-up-how-scotlands-future-was-stolen/
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3032 on: February 28, 2019, 01:49:05 AM »
Wow lets make this sound as though Scotland had no part in this whatsoever, and it's an Westminster English conspiracy
Sadly if the reserves were managed the way the Dutch or Norwegians do things it would have been better but the UK has always put profit before people. But it will always be the fault of perfidious Albion.

This is not news, not hidden anymore and not a conspiracy but application of bias and fact checking would have shown the report was first published in full in 2005 and that the National is pro selling papers then pro independence.

Assume that the oil will default to an Independent Scotland and those few people on Shetland and Orkney are not going to use the precedent of a breakaway Scotland to breakaway themselves as they sit 0n 85% of the oil reserves and are a mite tired of it's revenues benefiting Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Now if the referendum had fallen the other way you realise that the $100 dollar drop a barrel in the price of Oil would have left an independent Scotland bankrupt (again) and in need of bailing out. Basing your economy on a volatile revenue source is not prudent fiscal planning.

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3033 on: February 28, 2019, 10:56:15 AM »
Wow lets make this sound as though Scotland had no part in this whatsoever, and it's an Westminster English conspiracy

I didn't mention the English or an English conspiracy at any point, nor does the McCrone report. You just did, which is ridiculous, so forgive me if I won't indulge in the ludicrous pretense that Scotland can't be an independent nation, when so many countries with smaller GDPs and volatile economies are successful at it.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3034 on: February 28, 2019, 01:03:49 PM »
No but that's the theme from the National as usual.
The McCrone report is a what if, nothing else and what was conjecture in the 70's is still conjecture now except with 67% less oil.

obviously Scotland will be independent if that's what it chooses to be. What it cannot do is base it's economy around a volatile and diminishing resource.

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3035 on: February 28, 2019, 01:50:22 PM »
It's not my job to defend the National, but the theme is certainly not anti-English. Never mix discontent for Westminster's rule with Anglophobia.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 01:56:28 PM by Saraband »
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Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3036 on: February 28, 2019, 04:48:32 PM »
I am fairly sure you don't appreciate me calling you out on this and I am acutely aware of the irony of doing so.
Had we been discussing a dictatorship in Africa I still maintain you wouldn't have made the distinction had they have been black. I am aware you are correct but I don't believe you are right.

That's fair. While I don't agree, I very much appreciate you being civil and calling me out on something you feel is over the line. Please continue to do so and keep me honest.

When I point out that the vast majority of Trump supporters are angry white people, it's because THEY have chosen to loudly make their ethnicity part of their support for Trump. As they see it (and have been quick to point out) if you aren't white and straight, you should be not seen and not heard, like in the 40-50s (Make America Great Again!) they desperately want to go back to.

I'm kinda with Rostum on this one. If the ethnicity isn't necessary to the point in hand, it probably shouldn't be brought up - like in the original case. That said, I was also raised on the "You can say whatever you like about your own race" principle.

That said - having spent a lot of time in Western PA recently - I don't think they're really imagining it being a worse world than their parents got. And while there is plenty of racism there, they don't particularly blame immigrants for things being worse.

I think this is where we differ. I believe the ethnicity of Trump supporters IS part of the point, because they (or at least a large chunk of them) have made it so. When Trump's supporters have been very clear and vocal that they support Trump because is finally putting the non-whites and liberals in their place (and restoring the "proper" order of whites being in charge) their ethnicity is part of the discussion - because they have made it so.

When one of the primary motivations for (white) Trump supporters to support Trump is their racism against non-whites, I see no problem in calling out that the vast majority of these people for their racist motivations.

Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3037 on: February 28, 2019, 06:42:01 PM »

I'm kinda with Rostum on this one. If the ethnicity isn't necessary to the point in hand, it probably shouldn't be brought up - like in the original case. That said, I was also raised on the "You can say whatever you like about your own race" principle.

That said - having spent a lot of time in Western PA recently - I don't think they're really imagining it being a worse world than their parents got. And while there is plenty of racism there, they don't particularly blame immigrants for things being worse.

I think this is where we differ. I believe the ethnicity of Trump supporters IS part of the point, because they (or at least a large chunk of them) have made it so. When Trump's supporters have been very clear and vocal that they support Trump because is finally putting the non-whites and liberals in their place (and restoring the "proper" order of whites being in charge) their ethnicity is part of the discussion - because they have made it so.

When one of the primary motivations for (white) Trump supporters to support Trump is their racism against non-whites, I see no problem in calling out that the vast majority of these people for their racist motivations.

It is part of the point when discussing their motivations. Its not part of the point every time you mention their existence. The sentence in question would have been perfectly clear without the mention of ethnicity, which means it wasn't needed.



While I'm here, I read too many Scottish papers' letter pages during the referendum to be capable of entirely disassociating discontent with Westminster with Anglophobia.
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Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3038 on: February 28, 2019, 09:52:08 PM »
It is part of the point when discussing their motivations. Its not part of the point every time you mention their existence. The sentence in question would have been perfectly clear without the mention of ethnicity, which means it wasn't needed.

That's an interesting perspective, and I'll consider it in the future.

BTW, someone on Twitter actually summed up what motivates Trump supporters (and the GOP in general) far better than I managed too, so I thought I'd post it here. I feel this does a better job of encapsulating both the reality of Trump's base, and my thoughts on the matter.

https://twitter.com/drvox/status/1101182830334304259

This tweet was in response to a GOP (Trump supporting) governor lashing out at the idea of eliminating the Electoral College, which gives a small minority of (largely regressive, largely white voters) an outsized influence in who gets elected in our country.

Quote
This is the heart of the white reactionary backlash: if we are forced to be on equal footing with other people, we lose. If we're not on top & in charge, we're "forgotten". If we don't get to abuse you any more, we're the victims. The core animating force on the right, in a nutshell.

The reason I keep harping on the ethnicity of those who believe this is because I believe it's important to call out the racism inherent in their beliefs and statements.

I follow a gentleman named Charles Blow who said it best. He pointed out that ultimately, it's not the responsibility of African-Americans to "solve" racism, nor to call out racists and discourage them. It's the responsibility of white people, even those who aren't racist, to call out other whites who are. If a white person doesn't call out other whites on their racism (to avoid discomfort or allegations of "reverse racism", a favorite right-wing bludgeon) then they are passively participating in and supporting the overt racism of Trump and his supporters.

Offline Peat

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3039 on: March 01, 2019, 03:27:03 PM »
Do you think that they're wrong that they'll lose if put on an "even" footing? Politicians aren't exactly known for their rigorous attention to areas that don't offer votes or money. Poor rural communities will be exactly that if they lose their advantage in the Electoral College.
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Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3040 on: March 01, 2019, 04:44:18 PM »
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/cairo-train-crash-egypt-protest-arrest-a8802906.html

This is just the latest disaster to come out of Abdel-Fattah al-Sisi's moronic leadership. He's probably done more damage to Egypt in six years than Mubarak did in forty, yet somehow he's convinced himself that he ought to be in power until at least 2034.

I hope he goes the same way as Egypt's last two presidents and the sooner the better. 25 innocent people dead because this idiot choose to spend all his Saudi dollars on the military and none on replacing the railways.

Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3041 on: March 03, 2019, 12:25:57 PM »



If Trump had been President during WWII:
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Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3042 on: March 03, 2019, 01:11:31 PM »
Now, whenever someone asks me where my accent is from, my heart skips a beat before answering. I'm never completely sure if they're going to say something bad about foreigners :-\
I know it's a bit silly, I think if they were going down the 'bad' route they wouldn't bother asking for details, but it still happens and I can't help it.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3043 on: March 03, 2019, 02:51:58 PM »
I think you have it covered most people would ask because they are interested to know.

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #3044 on: March 04, 2019, 03:56:38 PM »
Here's an odd one. I was drawn to this because it breaks the stereotypical image foreigners have of Americans  only being motivated by money. My thought was will he will be branded a socialist (the most terrible word in American) for actually trying to make a small difference.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47403579