January 20, 2020, 02:49:25 AM

Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 300484 times)

Offline Yora

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2640 on: May 17, 2018, 08:53:36 PM »
Why is foootball a big deal? People simply enjoy a spectacle and feeling massive pride. It doesn't need a reason, just an excuse.
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Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2641 on: May 18, 2018, 08:11:05 AM »
So, to any Brits here...

Why are royal weddings such a big deal? I've been watching CNN on my hotel TV for the last three days, and I'm seeing a surprising amount of empty gossip about Harry's upcoming wedding. Why is this news? Why is the princess to be's father coming up again and again? Isn't the RF just a tourist attraction these days?

I'm not OPPOSED to the coverage, as such. I just don't see why professional journalists are bringing people's private lives again and again.

I guess the american news outlets and media are in it for the entertainment, but what annoys me here in the UK is the general feeling of sycophancy, particularly from the BBC and other major outlets, towards anything royal-related.

And, to be fair, it's much less of a deal in Scotland: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/royal-wedding-street-parties-meghan-markle-prince-harry-not-interested-yougov-poll-will-kate-a8352386.html

Quote
One British city, however, has not seen a drop in street party numbers compared to 2011.  Glasgow City Council received no road closure applications for street parties in 2011, and it has maintained that number for 2018.

Being born in a republic, I've always been befuddled by the adoration that monarchies still command in parts of Europe. The basic premise that someone is fit to rule a country by being the first child (often the first boy even) of a privileged family is hilarious, not to say completely mad  ::)
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2642 on: May 18, 2018, 08:50:48 AM »
Think you will find most in the UK are fairly ambivalent about the whole thing and yes American media has to be over the top about everything while having little comprehension as to what is happening or why.

Offline ScarletBea

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2643 on: May 18, 2018, 09:18:10 AM »
I don't think the royals rule the country, they're just an entertainment thing, hehe
I like watching these things from a purely non-political point of view, and to be fair, I haven't really seen that many focus on it on TV.

I'm going to record the transmission and then watch it amply using the fast-forward button ;D
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2644 on: May 21, 2018, 10:40:08 AM »
On the 25th there will be a referendum in Eire to determine whether abortion will be legal within the republic.
The BBC has a reasonably in depth article.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/Ireland_abortion_referendum

Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2645 on: May 25, 2018, 12:02:44 PM »
Loving the stories around social media of Irish women & men flying back to their country in order to vote to repeal the 8th ammendment that prohibits abortion in almost every case  :) Dreadfully anxious about the result though.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2646 on: May 27, 2018, 07:21:55 AM »
And may I be the first to welcome Ireland to the 20th century.

I feel the result is in part about breaking the catholic churches stranglehold on Irish politics and moving towards a truly secular state.

Offline Eli_Freysson

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2647 on: May 27, 2018, 08:24:10 AM »
I feel the result is in part about breaking the catholic churches stranglehold on Irish politics and moving towards a truly secular state.

Judging by the accounts and news stories I've read the Irish Catholic Church has had a highly negative effect on Irish society. So yes, more secularisation, please.
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Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2648 on: May 28, 2018, 11:50:50 AM »
I’m happy for secularization in politics (though I’m a religious person). But I’d prefer to be celebrating other human rights progress than abortion. I’m an outlier among “liberals” (U.S. definition) in my personal opposition to it.

A woman should have control of her own body.
But an unborn child is a person, too. The question is always: how far along is a fetus a person?
I can’t make that judgement, and under current science, nor can law.

Ethically, though, I believe that the potential personhood of the unborn should be given great respect. How is it that we can accord unquestioningly higher priority to the mother than to what will in nearly every case become an independent human?

I respect the opposing view here, but want good hearted people to consider other ethical possibilities.
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Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2649 on: May 28, 2018, 12:13:19 PM »
I respect the opposing view here, but want good hearted people to consider other ethical possibilities.

While I entirely respect your position on this issue, this is precisely my problem with opposition to abortion. I don't think pro-choice advocates will argue against the fact that we too would prefer people to consider other possibilities before choosing to do an abortion. And having an abortion has nothing to do with the goodness of one's heart, whatever that means.

But it is my firm belief, fed through the people I've met who underwent through an abortion, that not one woman takes such decision lightly. Having access to safe and legal abortion merely expands upon the possibilities open to the women who are facing a very difficult moment in their life.

Also, and I don't mean this about you @JMack but about the so called pro-life movement more broadly, there is much hypocrisy in the arguments against women's choice. Why would care so deeply about the sanctity of life, but still not be a pacifist? Or support capital punishment? Or defend the sale of guns, weapons designed to ultimately end that supposed sanctity of life?

Questions about a fetus becoming a person may be unanswerable at this point. But women will be getting abortions, whether they are legal or not, so it is the duty of any pro-lifer to guarantee that the woman's life is protected by having an abortion in the safest possible manner.
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Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2650 on: May 29, 2018, 09:23:24 AM »
Fully agree. I would disagree with abortions taken lightly but absolutely not with women doing an informed decision.

Also, and I don't mean this about you @JMack but about the so called pro-life movement more broadly, there is much hypocrisy in the arguments against women's choice. Why would care so deeply about the sanctity of life, but still not be a pacifist? Or support capital punishment? Or defend the sale of guns, weapons designed to ultimately end that supposed sanctity of life?
All that + they care shit about the baby once it's there. So if you really think about it, it's not pro-life it's pro-birth and, probably more importantly, the oppression of women. Sounds crass but if you think about all the points @Saraband gave, there is nothing to support the pro-life claim. What's left if you take that away is not wanting to give women one of the most important choices in their lives.
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Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2651 on: May 29, 2018, 01:08:45 PM »
I understand and agree with the problems with “pro-life” and suppression of women. But I also find that no one really wants to discuss the anti-abortion position outside of that context, on its own merits.

If we are to protect the criminal from execution (which I agree with), the woman from male domination, the poor from the rich, etc., then why is it so hard to want to protect the potential human? I say, more sex education, more condoms, more support for mothers who want someone to adopt their children, more supports for mothers - period - and more admission that abortion terminates a life. In my view, it is a societal shame that in our quest to make the mother feel free to make her choice, we risk removing all sense that this is a death.

(This is not to say that I don’t think women who go through abortions do so lightly. I’m making, I think, a different point. Partially one of ethical consistency among people who, like me I think, value human dignity and want to strive for a world when everyone is afforded that dignity.)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 01:13:44 PM by JMack »
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Offline Saraband

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2652 on: May 29, 2018, 02:00:52 PM »
If we are to protect the criminal from execution (which I agree with), the woman from male domination, the poor from the rich, etc., then why is it so hard to want to protect the potential human?

Well, because rather than prioritising a potential human, I'd rather care for the definite human in that scenario - the woman.

I struggle with your view, regarding the fact that this is a death. Because that's a step away from calling a woman who chooses to go through an abortion a murderer, and immediately conjures up the horrible image of groups of protesters harassing women outside health clinics that perform safe and legal abortions.

According to most english dictionaries, abortion is a deliberate interruption of a pregnancy. This definiton is void of any ethical questions, no dogmatic suppositions about the sanctity of life. You can consider it a death, but that's a personal view informed by your religious & personal background. But I certainly don't consider it a death. I see it as a medical procedure performed on a woman's body, and ultimately, the decision regarding such decision should be up to her. This is my personal view, formed by my own personal background and atheism.

Euthanasia, on the other hand, is an incontestable death. But, again, it is the result of an individual's choice, despite what value of sanctity you or me might ascribe to one's life. I don't think that question matters in these instances.

You mention dignity - I don't think there is any dignity in forcing women to go through with unwanted pregnancies. There is no dignity in forcing someone who is experiencing unimaginable physical and/or mental suffering to be forced to gradually degenerate, without allowing them to choose the time of their death, if they are capable of such choice.

Although Euthanasia is a different debate altogether, I'm simply highlighting the matter of choice in contrast to your view that the sanctity of life stands above everything else.

I don't think it is important to bring up the potential dignity of a potential human that could potentially be born. I'm not a Christian, but I understand that it defends that we are not supposed to judge others. So, let these women live with the consequence of their actions, but allow them to have a choice in the matter - and rather than judging their decision, let's instead make use of our compassion and support what was probably one of the most thought through decisions of their lives. They have gone through enough without having to be lectured on ethics, moral and religious dogma.
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Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2653 on: May 29, 2018, 07:16:13 PM »
I think if we would do all the things you suggest, @JMack, that the rate of abortions would drop by itself.
Since there aren't any easy answers regarding this topic, this would probably be the easiest way to handle it. Educate everybody, give everybody access to condoms, build a support network, etc.

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Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #2654 on: May 29, 2018, 08:17:32 PM »
For my part, permitting abortion is a much more pragmatic thing than lofty ideals about choice or the sanctity of life. The fact is, women have been terminating pregnancy since the invention of the willow stick. We allow it for the same reasons legalizing drugs is a good idea: it is going to happen anyway and its better done without all the negative results of people doing things illegally or, in the case of abortion, unprofessionally.

According to most english dictionaries, abortion is a deliberate interruption of a pregnancy. This definiton is void of any ethical questions, no dogmatic suppositions about the sanctity of life. You can consider it a death, but that's a personal view informed by your religious & personal background. But I certainly don't consider it a death. I see it as a medical procedure performed on a woman's body, and ultimately, the decision regarding such decision should be up to her. This is my personal view, formed by my own personal background and atheism.

Saraband, I think that is a hollow argument; dictionaries and similar references are written to present the simplest, non-controversial definitions of things. There is a plethora of information regarding the pain and remorse associated with miscarriages and the impacts they have on couples - and despite the accidental nature of miscarriages, they are in point of fact the exact same thing. And so the core issue is revealed - large numbers of people have very different points of view.

I also do not think the term "forcing" works to describe women carrying pregnancies (in most but not all) circumstances. We do not consistently apply this term to other situations where people voluntarily enter into something and then change course. People sign up for college and pay; when they quit after a certain period they do not receive their tuition back - yet they are not being forced to pay for an education they are not receiving.

I do agree that Euthanasia is another debate altogether, and has little legitimate utility in a discussion of abortion. Mainly because there is only one life involved and typically there are only two alternatives: a short, very painful death for some illnesses and a long, drawn out one for the senile.

Lastly, no one is disputing the legitimacy of letting women live with the consequence of their actions, or even allowing them to have a choice in their affairs; the issue is that when it comes to this specific issue, there is an impact on another life, albeit a potential one as you say. I don't think they should be magically immune to the judgment of others on this decision any more than anyone else is about major decisions that directly impact others. Again, the other in this scenario can be ignored, but not everyone wants to ignore that potential human.

I am not anti-abortion; I am, in fact, pro-abortion, only without a sense of righteousness.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 08:49:11 PM by The Gem Cutter »
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