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Author Topic: Politics and other ailments of the real world  (Read 313648 times)

Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #210 on: December 06, 2015, 09:50:03 PM »
The 'complex question' comes down to whether you should have control over your own body or the state should?
Whether is is right to force someone, possibly a child to carry a foetus to term and then provide them with none to minimal support. Whether the much translated changed and abridged set of rules for living in a middle eastern kingdom 3,000-1,000 years ago should hold sway over knowledge and Science of now. How do you claim the moral ground while forcing someone to bring a child to term they dont wish to carry, don't want when it is born and often cannot provide for. Never mind the medical cost of the birth.
As you elect the likes of Donna Campbell

The all (human) life is sacred bit would possibly stand up better if you led by example. You could provide healthcare and a first rate education for all for free. Show you value your people, end poverty. You hold over a 1/3 of the world commerce and 1/2 its wealth lead by example, but instead America as a nation has not done this. Even the daily shootings that no sane country would tolerate cannot be stopped but abortion can be. instead you vote for the likes of senator Donna Campbell.

Back in the late 80's I worked as a librarian for a midwives charity. Detroit had the highest child mortality bar 3 mid African cities in the world the pro life arguement would sit better if places in your incredibly rich country were not the third world.

I'm not making any defense of the U.S. position on these things. Just stating my own, and trying to be consistent in my views.

And yes, control of one's own body is the rub. I know you wouldn't countenance a mother aborting at 8 months, 7 months, 6 months... Per Wikipedia, the youngest foetuses ever to survive outside of the womb were about 21 weeks. A foetus can't control its own body. At what point does society through the actions of the state say that the right of the unborn trump those of the mother. At what point are there two bodies in conflict?

I agree there is an early point where human life has not begun. It's why I don't support out-lawing abortion fully. It's an extremely tough problem, simplified by both sides to support their own views.


But I'm starting to repeat myself. Discussion is great, but not table thumping. I hope I'm not coming off that way.
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Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #211 on: December 06, 2015, 10:00:52 PM »
There is a point where an embryo is the protien building blocks for life and the point where a foetus is a sustainable human being.
I am certainly not qualified to judge, but If I had to religious considerations would be well down the list.


« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 10:07:15 PM by Rostum »

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #212 on: December 06, 2015, 10:36:07 PM »
What bugs me most about pro-life is that it's really pro-birth and not pro-life. If you are pro-life, you should care for the baby that is brought into this world ( = health care, the well being of the mother/parents, ...) and not just that it is brought into this world.



A reasonable critique of many of the "pro-life" folks. My other is that so many pro-lifers are pro death penalty. This is one of the places where I appreciate the Catholic church's consistency: pr-birth, pro-human dignity, anti-death penalty. I think the church takes its position too far in respect to contraception, and there are many other areas where i disagree with its POV strenuously. But at least in regard to the current discussion, there's a consistency there.

My own position is pro-contraception, anti-abortion, pro-legal/safe abortion, pro-dignity, anti-death penalty.

If only everyone agreed with me!  :o ;)
So, you have me lost on the middle three. I'm thinking pro-dignity means a woman has the right to her own body. You also said anti-abortion, but pro-safe abortion. I'm confused on what the difference is. Is abortion when a baby can be killed even after it's a proven lifeform? And safe abortion is otherwise?

Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #213 on: December 06, 2015, 10:45:05 PM »
Pro-dignity means everyone has the right to a life of meaning and opportunity. Including gay people to love, women to be free from sexual predation, and on and on.

I'm against abortion as something that can kill a potential human being. I worry that defining potential people as tissue risks other ways in which we define away rights and dignity.

But I recognize that I don't know exactly when the line is crossed from tissue to human. Since I won't stand judge over this, I can only hope that people are careful and responsible. In the extremis, I believe people have the right to make their own choices. Therefore, legal and safe. Still, I also believe society can limit this. At a certain point, the person-hood of the child is clear.

Maybe: abortion is to tissue; murder is to viable unborn human. I'm not smart enough to know when the line is crossed.
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Offline Raptori

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #214 on: December 07, 2015, 04:22:34 AM »
Completely with Jmack in that pro-life philosophy seems utterly mental to me. Saurus shared a quote with me that sums it up pretty well:

Quote
I cannot understand anti-abortion arguments that centre on the sanctity of life. As a species we've fairly comprehensively demonstrated that we don't believe in the sanctity of life. The shrugging acceptance of war, famine, epidemic, pain and life-long poverty shows us that, whatever we tell ourselves, we've made only the most feeble of efforts to really treat life as sacred.

My personal morality is pretty clear-cut. If a creature has the neural substrates required for consciousness, it counts as a person (which includes all vertebrates and some invertebrates). I find all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, a person to be morally wrong, and always try to cause as little impact on others as I can while still maintaining my own rights.

If the fetus literally does not have the capacity to think, then for me it's not a person, and doesn't have any rights at all. Those neural substrates begin to develop between the 24th and 28th week of pregnancy.

However, that's actually completely irrelevant. Another quote (again shared with me by Saurus):

Quote
There’s a concept called bodily autonomy. It’s generally considered a human right. Bodily autonomy means a person has control over who or what uses their body, for what, and for how long. It’s why you can’t be forced to donate blood, tissue, or organs. Even if you’re dead. Even if you’d save or improve 20 lives. It’s why someone can’t touch you, have sex with you, or use your body in any way without your continuous consent.

A fetus is using someone’s body parts. Therefore under bodily autonomy, it is there by permission, not by right. It needs a person’s continuous consent. If they deny or withdraw consent, the pregnant person has a right to remove them from that moment. A fetus is equal in this regard because if I need someone else’s body parts to live, they also can legally deny me their use.

By saying a fetus has a right to someone’s body parts until it’s born, despite the pregnant person’s wishes, you’re doing two things.

1) Granting a fetus more rights to other people’s bodies than any born person.
2) Awarding a pregnant person less rights to their body than a corpse.

So, even if you consider a fetus at any stage to automatically be a person, the mother should still be well within her rights to have an abortion. Unless you believe that the mother should have no rights at all.

Also, here's an interesting link that explains the mechanics of what pregnancy is really like (in answer to a question about why women have periods). In short, despite the "beautiful pregnancy" narrative, a baby is essentially a parasite that wages war on the mother.  :P
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Offline JMack

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #215 on: December 08, 2015, 12:33:36 PM »
Donald Trump gets scarier and crazier every day.
How soon til his supporters start doing violence themselves?
Hope not, but easy to see it going that way.

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Offline xiagan

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #216 on: December 08, 2015, 03:27:41 PM »
Donald Trump gets scarier and crazier every day.
How soon til his supporters start doing violence themselves?
Hope not, but easy to see it going that way.
It's hard to imagine that he actually has followers who take him serious - and not only trolls who want to see what happens...
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Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #217 on: December 08, 2015, 04:10:49 PM »
Donald Trump gets scarier and crazier every day.
How soon til his supporters start doing violence themselves?
Hope not, but easy to see it going that way.
It's hard to imagine that he actually has followers who take him serious - and not only trolls who want to see what happens...

Edit: Added links for those curious.

For those who aren't in the States, Trump's supporters are already committing violence. They recently beat up a protestor who showed up at one of Trump's rallies, and Trump responded with something along the lines of "Well, the protestor probably had it coming".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/11/22/black-activist-punched-at-donald-trump-rally-in-birmingham/

“Maybe he should have been roughed up, because it was absolutely disgusting what he was doing,” Trump said on the Fox News Channel on Sunday morning. “I have a lot of fans, and they were not happy about it. And this was a very obnoxious guy who was a trouble-maker who was looking to make trouble.”

Trump's supporters are very real, and they agree with pretty much everything he says. If anything, they are even more blatantly racist and close-minded. As someone who has to live in this country, knowing people like the average Trump supporter are out there is a bit terrifying.

His candidacy isn't a joke any longer, as much as we wish it was. His toxic dialogue is having real and dangerous effects on the most volatile and angry people within our borders.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 04:17:18 PM by tebakutis »

Offline Arry

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #218 on: December 08, 2015, 08:34:35 PM »
Donald Trump gets scarier and crazier every day.
How soon til his supporters start doing violence themselves?
Hope not, but easy to see it going that way.
It's hard to imagine that he actually has followers who take him serious - and not only trolls who want to see what happens...

unfortunately I have learned to never assume voters will come to their senses when it comes time to go to the polls. There are too many voters who are easily swayed by campaigning that fuels fear and feeds on ignorance. Trump is just the latest example, and one that takes advantage of all the traits that people find addictive in reality TV. Sad thing is, this isn't just a TV show. Sadly, there are too many people that do agree with him, and him being so visible in the media spotlight is like a rallying call for crazy town.

The good news is, I do know people who are Republican and have always voted Republican, that will refuse to vote for him because he is so far out there and so open about his bigotry. My hope is that he won't be able to carry the vote, but I have been so disappointed by some previous elections, I won't bank on it.
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Offline m3mnoch

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #219 on: December 08, 2015, 09:19:22 PM »
meh.  not all of us are freaking out about trump.  just sayin'.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/dear-media-stop-freaking-out-about-donald-trumps-polls/

Offline Arry

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #220 on: December 08, 2015, 09:29:14 PM »
meh.  not all of us are freaking out about trump.  just sayin'.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/dear-media-stop-freaking-out-about-donald-trumps-polls/

Well, I'm just speaking from past experience thinking "There is no way the American public could possibly vote for this guy". And I was wrong. More than once. If he has enough to win the primary, which right now he is in the lead, then he will likely get on the ticket (unless the Republican party revolts and force him to be an Independent choice). If he does get on the ticket, some of the people currently supporting other Republicans may move their vote to him. But I hope not. But honestly, I do wish they would stop covering him so much because it feeds the reality tv fan base (or at least that is my very in-expert opinion)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 09:30:51 PM by arry »
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Offline m3mnoch

Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #221 on: December 08, 2015, 09:38:19 PM »
...but how would we know when he was singing some lady's boobs?

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #222 on: December 08, 2015, 09:39:02 PM »
My concern with Trump isn't necessarily that he'll get elected (though, there is a remote possibility) but that the way he's running his candidacy actually has real-world consequences.

I've seen some glee from folks on the left about how Trump is "destroying the Republican party"... and while sure, I can understand why it might be amusing to one side to see the other side trying to deal with a guy as crazy as Trump, the problem (for me) is that Trump's sheer level of crazy is moving the whole conversation to the right.

As an example, pre-Trump, requiring every citizen who subscribes to a particular religion to register on a national watchlist wouldn't have been suggested by even the rightmost of right wingers, at least not on a national stage. It was too badshit even for someone like Rush Limbaugh.

Post-Trump, starting that list is now the new far-right. Putting American citizens on a watchlist based on their religion is now a topic that's actively in our political discussion. Some of the most right-wing of right-wingers are now saying "Well, that's not such a bad idea".

Meanwhile, abroad, people are looking at the US and saying "Wait, the US really has a presidential candidate who endorses registering people by religion or (most recently) banning all people of a religion from the county?"

So, that's where Trump gets scary for me. Also, even if he *doesn't* get the Republican nod or, if he does get it but doesn't win, he's already fired up his supporters. He has shown he has absolutely no qualms about repeating lies ("Muslims celebrated 9/11 in the streets of New Jersey", for example) and his followers BELIEVE those lies. Absolutely. Planting false beliefs that toxic in people, especially people who are going to be VERY disgruntled if Trump doesn't win the presidency, is irresponsible and dangerous.

Now, just to give you an idea of how closely I've been following this, I *never* talk politics in public. :) I've stayed away from threads like this for that reason. I have my own beliefs and I welcome you to have yours, and I don't think anyone is going to change their mind because of what someone said on the Internet.

That said, given where Trump is now, I am now comfortable going on record with the following:
- You should not encourage your followers to physically assault people who disagree with you politically, and
- You should not suggest we put American citizens on a "government watchlist" because of their religious beliefs.

I know. Crazy thoughts! But if someone disagrees with me on those points, then I'm okay with that. :0
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 09:40:38 PM by tebakutis »

Offline Rostum

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #223 on: December 08, 2015, 09:57:10 PM »
The real danger towards democracy is when people reach the point of despair where instead of saying "Do your job and fix this" they say "Tell us what to do?" I don't think you are at that place yet.

Offline Hedin

Re: Politics and other ailments of the real world
« Reply #224 on: December 09, 2015, 04:34:50 AM »
Jumping in late on the abortion conversation (I'm personally against it but I also think I shouldn't be making moral decisions for other people and let them choose their own way).  What gets me is that a large part of the group that is against abortions are also against good sex education and birth control.  If we really want to lower the abortion rate we should be passing out birth control pills and condoms like candy at Halloween rather than making it harder for them to get the appropriate protection.  Instead they equate anyone who takes birth control is a promiscuous slut who shouldn't have any protection because they are sinning in their actions.