May 28, 2017, 01:16:49 PM

Author Topic: LGBT+ characters in fantasy  (Read 3062 times)

Offline Mr.J

  • Anus Dracula formerly known as Arse Demon and Writing Contest Regular
  • Writing Group
  • Gentleman Bastard
  • *****
  • Posts: 1649
  • Total likes: 1108
  • Gender: Male
  • Tweedy impertinence
    • View Profile
Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2016, 09:29:42 PM »
I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but I don't like the idea that same sex couples can't have children and therefore the inheritance thing relating to marriage doesn't apply to them...

I don't think Yora was expressing any opinion on the matter, only reporting his understanding of the situation and beliefs in "medieval" times.

Meanwhile, you raise an interesting plot concept. In a world where adoption is rare but acceptable, a LGBT couple overturns society's expectations by using adoption to ensure inheritance of one of partner's vast fortune.
Yea I wasn't sure if it was meant as now or in the past is all. :)


Offline Yora

Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2016, 09:55:39 PM »
In Japan it is still common that company owners without sons to take over the business adopt their chosen successor from their employees. I think it's legally irrelevant now as you can transfer your company to whoever you like, but it's still done out of a tradition to keep it a family business.

I think the role of marriage in a society is always about managing ownership of property. The idea that sexual contact should be limited to married couples is to maintain a certainty about who is entitled to a heritage. But aside from inheritance, marriage can also regulate taxes.
If the state collects taxes from each farm or business, taxation is easy. It doesn't matter if the farm or business is run by one person, two people, or several people. How the owner or owners pay their servants is their own affair. But there has always been the situation that couples separate and then you have to deal with the question how the value of the farm is distributed between them. Did the husband own everything and keeps all that is his? Did the wife own half of the farm and retains a claim to half the land and compensation for half the house? This is important and so there is a good reason to form a legally recognized partnership in form of a marriage.
If you have a more advanced state with a more complex tax system, then people might have to pay income tax. Does the husband have the whole profit from the farm as income and the wife none? Or do they both have 50% of the profit as their personal income? Or perhaps the woman living on the farm with the man is an employee receiving a wage? Or say the farm goes bankrupt: Is the woman liable to pay debts of the man? If she's an employee receiving a wage, she is not. If she is a joint owner of the farm she is. These are very important things to have legal clarity about, and marriage does provide that.

If you have same sex marriage, this most probably means that women own property and run businesses just like men. And then you probably also have a system of inheritance that doesn't make a difference between male children and female children.

But in any case, the institution of marriage is primarily about property and finance. A religious blessing of a personal relationship of affection is something that might be important to people as a private matter, but would have little meaning for public matters.
Spriggan's Den

There is nothing to read!

Offline cupiscent

Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2016, 10:06:12 PM »
Meanwhile, you raise an interesting plot concept. In a world where adoption is rare but acceptable, a LGBT couple overturns society's expectations by using adoption to ensure inheritance of one of partner's vast fortune.

Adoption isn't the only way a same-sex couple could have children, though.

In Japan it is still common that company owners without sons to take over the business adopt their chosen successor from their employees. I think it's legally irrelevant now as you can transfer your company to whoever you like, but it's still done out of a tradition to keep it a family business.

My understanding is that adoption was also very common in ancient Rome for similar reasons - or indeed just because the old patriarch got pissed off with his aggravating children and adopted his favourite slave to spit in all their faces. ;)

Offline Peat

Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2016, 01:10:31 AM »
Mercedes Lackey has a metric crap ton of homosexual characters and, if not actual weddings, then homosexual characters in mystical lifebondings. Although there might be some, I'm not sure.

I very deliberately used homosexual as I can't recall much if any trans- characters. LGB is a lot better represented than T.

Does noone read my posts? I told of a transsexual character in the other thread , she was brilliantly written and awesome.

Lan from The book of Transformation by Mark Charan Newton

If it's on another thread to the one I'm posting in, quite possibly not  :P

That post was also exclusively about Lackey's books. I don't have enough knowledge to speak confidently about all of fantasy but I've read all of the Valdemar books (apart from a few of the latest) and she has a lot of characters of the first three, but I'm really struggling to think of a single one that could be called trans as far as I understand the term.
This is the blog of Peat - http://peatlong.blogspot.co.uk/

Offline Roelor

Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2016, 02:01:51 PM »
I find the LGBT community incredibly attention seeking.
We don't care what your gender or sexual orientation is.

People tend to over-inform others on that end, just to get attention, whether it's positive or negative.
I think in most cases in books, that's the same case.

"Look I did something controversial, now read my book."

Anyone has the right to do whatever, but as with religion or your ideology, you don't have to rub it in my face.
Good for you.. but I really don't care.

Offline ScarletBea

  • Positive Invisible Fighter - and bringer of Cake. 2nd in Command of the Writing Contest
  • Writing Group
  • Big Wee Hag
  • ******
  • Posts: 7499
  • Total likes: 4486
  • Gender: Female
  • Geeky Reading Introvert
    • View Profile
    • LibraryThing profile
Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2016, 02:14:16 PM »
Excuse me, but is mentioning a girlfriend/boyfriend, or wife/husband "rubbing it in your face"?
Is including a gay character in a book "controversial"?

Do you really believe that gay people just want attention?
Is that attention to feel uncomfortable, attention to be bullied, attention to disappoint certain family members or attention to get this kind of posts in this very open and very inclusive forum?

That's not a very good introduction for you, sorry...
At home in the Fantasy Faction forum!
"There is no way to kill someone mercifully. (...) They may claim that their victims did not suffer. They lie. All they may truly say is that the victim's suffering was invisible to them." Robin Hobb ("Fool's Assassin")

Offline Justan Henner

  • Barbarian who pronounces are, our and hour all the same way
  • Writing Group
  • Valheru
  • **
  • Posts: 938
  • Total likes: 481
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2016, 02:18:24 PM »
I find the LGBT community incredibly attention seeking.
We don't care what your gender or sexual orientation is.

People tend to over-inform others on that end, just to get attention, whether it's positive or negative.
I think in most cases in books, that's the same case.

I think you're lumping a lot of people in together, based on the actions of a vocal few, many of whom are vocal for the sake of activism and the pursuit of a political agenda. And many others who are vocal because they resist the assertion that they should "just act normal", as if that's something everyone else gets to decide.

As an example, would you be surprised to learn that there are some LGBT individuals that agree with you?

http://imgur.com/gallery/KbjqaPk
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 02:23:07 PM by Justan Henner »

Offline Roelor

Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2016, 02:34:13 PM »
Maybe I am, that's human nature for it, we can't go without lumping them together cause that's not how we compute.

Anyway, I am happy that there is a faction within the LGBT Community that agree.
Too bad that it's like many other things, still an easy way to score attention and is in no way something that can be measured.

It's sad for those who actually struggle with either their sexual orientation or their own gender, that such a visible group gives them such a bad impression. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone with the impression that attention seeking is key there.

Offline Arry

  • Cat of the Canals
  • Administrator
  • Elderling
  • ***
  • Posts: 5824
  • Total likes: 587
  • Gender: Female
  • Faceless
    • View Profile
    • Tenacious Reader
Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2016, 02:50:34 PM »
I find the LGBT community incredibly attention seeking.
We don't care what your gender or sexual orientation is.

People tend to over-inform others on that end, just to get attention, whether it's positive or negative.
I think in most cases in books, that's the same case.

"Look I did something controversial, now read my book."

Anyone has the right to do whatever, but as with religion or your ideology, you don't have to rub it in my face.
Good for you.. but I really don't care.

You are welcome to your opinions, and can share them if as long as you are respectful in the process. But if LGBT characters in fantasy do no interest you, I am curious why you chose to read this topic and make this one of your first posts in the forum. You call gay characters attention seeking, but this topic hadn't been posted in for over week, by posting in it, you pretty much are bringing attention back to it.

And surely you don't think that a book featuring any sort of gay character is just attention seeking? It's usually just a relationship between two characters, same as any other relationship.
“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies. The man who never reads lives only once.”
-- George R.R. Martin

http://www.tenaciousreader.com

http://www.speculativeherald.com

Offline Roelor

Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2016, 03:13:37 PM »

And surely you don't think that a book featuring any sort of gay character is just attention seeking? It's usually just a relationship between two characters, same as any other relationship.

It's not necessarily attention seeking, the flinging it in your face is.
As long as a character is gay and the writer does not rub it in our face, as his primary element, I am fine with that.
This is not the base of the character, this is not the point of view that it is written from.

In the case of an LGBT character that stands out, it would mean someone focused on this as a primary trope and in that case I think it is attention seeking.

Why did I start with this, simple.. it attracted my attention. I also didn't realize it was an older topic :D

Please do understand I honestly do not care how people identify themselves or what attracts them, it's just the part that nowadays, everyone thinks its supposed to be thrown in everyones faces.


Offline m3mnoch

Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2016, 04:36:58 PM »
also in the vein of justin's comment, just with all groups, there are always the loud ones.

as an illustration, if 3.4 percent of the population identifies as lgbt, that means 1-in-30 people around you every day are lgbt.

that means 1-in-30 characters on the shows you watch should be lgbt.

that means 1-in-30 of the advertisements you watch on tv should have lgbt people represented.

that means 1-in-30 characters in the books you read should be lgbt.

that means 1-in-30 people in the coffee shop you're standing in should be lgbt.

that means 1-in-30 people you work with should be lgbt.

i mean, if you look around you, and you feel like "it's different for me.  there aren't that many gay people around me!" -- you're probably wrong and they're just not "throwing it in your face".  i mean, a community-wise, that's approximately the same percent of the u.s. population as the muslims, hindus, jews, and buddhists ALL COMBINED.  personally, i feel like i hear a LOT more about the aggregate of those religions than 'the gays'.  right?  like, in terms of raw numbers, in the u.s., there are 4x lgbt folks as there are muslims.  there are more gays than atheists.

i guess what i'm saying is, objectively and comparatively speaking, there's probably not really that much "throwing it in your face" actually happening compared to the number of people who are actually lgbt.  it may just be something you're extra sensitive to.

kind of how i shake my fist and rail along about how many tv shows and movies get technology/physics/nerdy stuff horribly, horribly wrong.  i'm sure there are shows that get it right, but i'm just so sensitive to it, that it feels like ALL of them flaunt the stupid out where everyone can see.  because ALL THOSE BASTARDS ARE STUPID AND COULDN'T THEY JUST HIRE A CONSULTANT THAT KNOWS HOW THE HELL TECHNOLOGY WORKS??!!

*ahem*

sorry about that.

anyway.  before i got side-tracked, things are probably not as "attention-seeking" or "face-flinging" as you'd think.  i mean, gay people do gay things like kiss other gay people.  just like straight people do straight things like kiss other straight people.  love and relationships are a big part of humanity and stories.  so, if there's a gay character (and 1-in-30 should be!), you should kind of expect some gayness.

it probably feels flung in your face so much (but isn't really) because it's so under-represented in fantasy.  kind of like how an oasis in the desert REALLY stands out.  water actually makes up 71% of the earth's surface, but you get that effect since it's so under-represented in a desert.

but, saying something like, "they can be gay, just as long as they don't do anything gay" seems kind of silly to me.

because that can be taken as a thin veneer covering your bigotry.  "people can be gay, just as long as i don't have to see it -- that way, i can pretend they don't exist because i don't want them to exist."  sort of like anytime anyone is about to say something racist, they start off by saying "i'm not racist, but..." -- and then they sling out some seriously horrible shit.

personally, i choose to think that you're just sensitive to it popping up because it's so under-represented.

Offline Nora

  • Dropped in from another planet avec son sourire provocateur - et Hades and Writing Contest Regular
  • Writing Group
  • Ta'veren
  • **
  • Posts: 3786
  • Total likes: 3074
  • Gender: Female
  • The Explorer
    • View Profile
Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2016, 04:37:50 PM »
There is a pretty big difference between :

I find the LGBT community incredibly attention seeking.
We don't care what your gender or sexual orientation is.

And
As long as a character is gay and the writer does not rub it in our face, as his primary element, I am fine with that.

Your first comment is a direct critic of the LGBT community, your later finally acknowledges the existence of the author. A welcome addition given that we're talking about LGBT characters in fantasy.

Are the "LGBT community" attention seeking if the authors guilty of "flinging" LGBT material in your face straight and non trans?
Mr Hetero-Everybody writes about two guys who fall in love... it's the LGBT community's fault?

If you think gay love stories are controversial, you haven't read that many on the topic... You should pick up a yaoi manga sometime, might show you just how little things where shoved in your face, compared with what you find when you go looking for it.

The opinion of "do what you will so long as you don't do it in front of me" is one that fits someone who doesn't read.
Sorry to come off as aggressive saying this, but honestly, last I checked, reading fiction was about getting in the skin of characters, fall in the middle of their lives, see them struggle, hear them think, learn their dirty secrets, the extremes they'll go to in order to achieve their goals. Etc.
How do you expect to experience that without mentions of love, romantic/sexual inclinations, beliefs, morals...?

Maybe what you want to say is that it's fine, so long as the characters stick exactly to what is comfortable with you?

But I truly don't get why the large percentage of the population that is LGBT in some way or other, can't get to stumble once in a while on a character whose gender or sexual orientation or struggles is familiar/similar to theirs. Straight people certainly have more than their share of straight characters to identify with.
No one is forcing you to read these books, if you want to stick to what is comfortable for you. I say that because I imagine that Harry Dresden dating hot chicks, or Harry Potter falling in love and marrying Ginny Weasley, is not at all the Staight community being attention seeking in your books, nor counts as rubbing it in your face?

Sorry if I come across as annoyed... I'm straight as an arrow, not for women's lack of trying, but the more time goes the more bewildered I get that people's sexual orientation can be something to get outraged about.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 04:43:12 PM by Nora »
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline m3mnoch

Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2016, 04:43:24 PM »
I'm straight as an arrow, not for women's lack of trying

ha!  nora -- you're so awesome.  i'm SOOOOOOOOO crushing on you.  ...just don't let my wife know!

Offline Lanko

  • Sherlanko Holmes, Jiin Wei and Writing Contest Regular
  • Writing Group
  • Master Namer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2266
  • Total likes: 1569
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2016, 04:45:35 PM »
I'm straight as an arrow, not for women's lack of trying

ha!  nora -- you're so awesome.  i'm SOOOOOOOOO crushing on you.  ...just don't let my wife know!

Then you discover your wife is actually hitting on her  ::)
"It is an old maxim of mine that when you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

Lanko's Year in Books 2017

Offline Nora

  • Dropped in from another planet avec son sourire provocateur - et Hades and Writing Contest Regular
  • Writing Group
  • Ta'veren
  • **
  • Posts: 3786
  • Total likes: 3074
  • Gender: Female
  • The Explorer
    • View Profile
Re: LGBT+ characters in fantasy
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2016, 04:53:47 PM »
I'm straight as an arrow, not for women's lack of trying

ha!  nora -- you're so awesome.  i'm SOOOOOOOOO crushing on you.  ...just don't let my wife know!

Ah, yes, and don't forget the accent as well! I won't tell your wife anything, but you need to start sending me some money!  ;D   8)

Here, to illustrate my point. That's a picture of me back in Paris when I was a press photographer, I was attending one of the bazillion street protest. Dressed like that daily, I attracted a lot of feminine attention. All going well over my head.

Spoiler for Hiden:
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
154 Replies
26582 Views
Last post November 02, 2016, 02:14:30 PM
by carjug
112 Replies
19792 Views
Last post January 12, 2013, 09:35:09 AM
by Jian
14 Replies
2406 Views
Last post February 25, 2013, 03:20:27 PM
by Hierath
0 Replies
381 Views
Last post January 17, 2016, 07:57:38 AM
by David Finn
55 Replies
4607 Views
Last post April 22, 2017, 04:21:59 AM
by Lady_Ty