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Author Topic: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......  (Read 8617 times)

Offline Lady Ty

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“This is the problem with even lesser demons. They come to your doorstep in velvet coats and polished shoes. They tip their hats and smile and demonstrate good table manners. They never show you their tails.” 
Leigh Bardugo, The Language of Thorns: Midnight Tales and Dangerous Magic

Offline Justan Henner

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2015, 01:45:24 PM »
Oh dear...

Quote
“For the huge Kárahnjúkastífla dam project in the east, consultants with clairvoyant skills were hired to check out the landscape first to ensure it was empty of elvish rocks. There’s now money to be made in this sort of consultancy work.”

Clearly I've chosen the wrong career path.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 01:47:32 PM by Justan Henner »

Offline JMack

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2015, 03:21:43 PM »
I love this whole thing.
I will shamelessly steal this and put it into a story sometime.  ;D
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
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Offline Elfy

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2015, 11:52:29 PM »
I know they've censored some of the old Enid Blyton's and replaced the 'naughty' golliwogs with goblins. I wonder if anyone is going to protest that they're being discriminatory against the goblins there?
I will expand your TBR pile.

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Offline JMack

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 12:13:15 AM »
I know they've censored some of the old Enid Blyton's and replaced the 'naughty' golliwogs with goblins. I wonder if anyone is going to protest that they're being discriminatory against the goblins there?
In our summer cabin, as a child, I found an old Golliwog book that was falling apart. I had no idea that the characters were bigoted stereotypes of African-Americans. The books require updating if they're to be used with modern children rather than relegated to museums and doctoral theses.

"Little Black Sambo" is more complicated. It was based in southern India, but in the U.S. some editions dropped the original illustrations and substituted polliwog style figures so that it became about African-Americans. The story itself is quite nice and unbiased. But the title of the book, the names of the characters and many of the illustrations over time meant that the lovely story was undermined. I remember reading this as a child, and not seeing the racial overtones at all. And I grew up in a very liberal and socially-conscious family.
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
You are being naive if you think that any sweet and light theme cannot be strangled and force fed it's own flesh. (Nora)
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Offline JMack

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 12:16:32 AM »
Now on a slightly more cheerful note, I've heard that the new versions of The Hobbit are replacing goblins with Martians; since we are certain there are no Martians, but the existence of goblins is still a possibility  ;)
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
You are being naive if you think that any sweet and light theme cannot be strangled and force fed it's own flesh. (Nora)
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Offline Elfy

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 12:49:23 AM »
I know they've censored some of the old Enid Blyton's and replaced the 'naughty' golliwogs with goblins. I wonder if anyone is going to protest that they're being discriminatory against the goblins there?
In our summer cabin, as a child, I found an old Golliwog book that was falling apart. I had no idea that the characters were bigoted stereotypes of African-Americans. The books require updating if they're to be used with modern children rather than relegated to museums and doctoral theses.

"Little Black Sambo" is more complicated. It was based in southern India, but in the U.S. some editions dropped the original illustrations and substituted polliwog style figures so that it became about African-Americans. The story itself is quite nice and unbiased. But the title of the book, the names of the characters and many of the illustrations over time meant that the lovely story was undermined. I remember reading this as a child, and not seeing the racial overtones at all. And I grew up in a very liberal and socially-conscious family.
They've gone after the Enid Blyton's with a big stick. The original names of the characters in the Faraway Tree books were Jo (a boy), Bessie and Fanny, in the second book they were joined by Dick. Now they names have been altered to Joe (apparently not having the 'e' confuses people), Beth (Bessie is too archaic) and Frannie (because well the other name has been appropriated to mean something different, although when these books were originally written in the 1930's it was in usage, my mother actually had an Aunty Fan) Dick is now Rick (because again it means something else these days. I wonder how Australian businessman and adventurer Dick Smith feels about that?). The worrying thing about censorship like this is that they can do these things to the books, because I think they're public domain. I spoke about to a friend of mine who majored in English Literature at uni, and what concerned him was that what if someone decides down the track that Dickens is too depressing, or Shakespeare too dirty? They've already tried to remove the n word from Mark Twain's books, and I actually found that far less offensive than the racial stereotyping done in Edgar Rice Burroughs original Tarzan of the Apes.
I will expand your TBR pile.

http://purpledovehouse.blogspot.com

Offline JMack

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 01:06:13 AM »
Yes, the racial stereotyping in Burroughs is pretty heavy.
Shakespeare censorship was done by Bowdler (hence: "to bowdlerize"), plus there was a version of the Bible with all the naughty bits removed.  :P

@Elfy, Maybe you're right; the answer is just put it out there and let people do with it as they will. But I do hate the idea of people being offended by things that are so patently racist, even that wasn't the conscious intent of the author.
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
You are being naive if you think that any sweet and light theme cannot be strangled and force fed it's own flesh. (Nora)
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Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 02:54:36 AM »
I truly liked the way the Icelanders think and Jmacyk it would be glorious to see a story where big business construction had to literally have board meetings with the elves and goblins and anyone else caught up in development.  Just thinking of the devious hard nosed concessions that could be wrung out from the humans.  ;D

This subject has taken a welcome serious turn but I would never have titled it as I did except for the original link.  ;D
 
Retrospective censoring of any literature makes me see red and steam comes out of my ears. One of my rant subjects is criticism of past literature without taking into consideration or having some knowledge of the era in which it was written. Literature of all kinds is social history, it reflects exactly the attitudes and customs of the day, whether it concerns racism, religion sex etc and we should read it  in that light.  Also giving a thought to the different type of readers it was  aimed at, such as the author's peers, or to influence politics, or the so-called "working class" or Victorians sitting around while Papa read to the family and so on.

Of course Dickens is depressing, he was trying to draw attention to appalling conditions, disease, extreme poverty, huge social divide between wealthy and poor of Victorian England. No point trying to pretend life was good.

As for cutting the dirty bits out of Shakespeare it's not all easily recognised, but the raucous crowds in the Globe Theatre loved and enjoyed all those double meanings, it helped those with pretty hard lives have some fun and the more we know the better we can appreciate his brilliance with words.  I had a Jewish friend who would not read Shakespeare because he had been highly offended by the portrayal of Shylock and I could understand why, but that was exactly how the Jews were perceived and treated then.

Agatha Christie, from 20thC, has several racist stereotypes which have not been changed, although the  title of one novel,  "Then There Were One", is not as I first knew it.

Modern day censoring of previous racial content seems to come from guilt, but  that is exactly how white people spoke and acted towards all people of colour not just black people. Orientals had a hard time of it as well.  We should be able to read and feel disgust but not try to pretend it didn't happen rather face it.  This type of censoring is a covert way of re-writing history and it seriously bothers me.

“This is the problem with even lesser demons. They come to your doorstep in velvet coats and polished shoes. They tip their hats and smile and demonstrate good table manners. They never show you their tails.” 
Leigh Bardugo, The Language of Thorns: Midnight Tales and Dangerous Magic

Offline Saraband

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 09:32:06 AM »
I truly liked the way the Icelanders think and Jmacyk it would be glorious to see a story where big business construction had to literally have board meetings with the elves and goblins and anyone else caught up in development.  Just thinking of the devious hard nosed concessions that could be wrung out from the humans.  ;D

This subject has taken a welcome serious turn but I would never have titled it as I did except for the original link.  ;D
 
Retrospective censoring of any literature makes me see red and steam comes out of my ears. One of my rant subjects is criticism of past literature without taking into consideration or having some knowledge of the era in which it was written. Literature of all kinds is social history, it reflects exactly the attitudes and customs of the day, whether it concerns racism, religion sex etc and we should read it  in that light.  Also giving a thought to the different type of readers it was  aimed at, such as the author's peers, or to influence politics, or the so-called "working class" or Victorians sitting around while Papa read to the family and so on.

Of course Dickens is depressing, he was trying to draw attention to appalling conditions, disease, extreme poverty, huge social divide between wealthy and poor of Victorian England. No point trying to pretend life was good.

As for cutting the dirty bits out of Shakespeare it's not all easily recognised, but the raucous crowds in the Globe Theatre loved and enjoyed all those double meanings, it helped those with pretty hard lives have some fun and the more we know the better we can appreciate his brilliance with words.  I had a Jewish friend who would not read Shakespeare because he had been highly offended by the portrayal of Shylock and I could understand why, but that was exactly how the Jews were perceived and treated then.

Agatha Christie, from 20thC, has several racist stereotypes which have not been changed, although the  title of one novel,  "Then There Were One", is not as I first knew it.

Modern day censoring of previous racial content seems to come from guilt, but  that is exactly how white people spoke and acted towards all people of colour not just black people. Orientals had a hard time of it as well.  We should be able to read and feel disgust but not try to pretend it didn't happen rather face it.  This type of censoring is a covert way of re-writing history and it seriously bothers me.

I thought of joining in after the thread took a more serious turn, but then @Lady Ty wrote many of the things I thought about with far more eloquence.

I would emphasize the importance of literature in understanding the social context of the time in which a book was written. I mean, how better to understand the roaring twenties than opening one of Francis Scott Fitzgerald's many masterpieces? Instead of putting censored versions on the hands of the new generations, we should have them confront the original versions and discuss why they are offensive today.

Bleaching the past doesn't make it right. Otherwise we will never learn from our mistakes.

There was a version of the Bible with all the naughty bits removed.  :P

I don't think there would be much left from the Old Testament in particular  :P

Oh dear...

Quote
“For the huge Kárahnjúkastífla dam project in the east, consultants with clairvoyant skills were hired to check out the landscape first to ensure it was empty of elvish rocks. There’s now money to be made in this sort of consultancy work.”

Clearly I've chosen the wrong career path.


I wonder if this could solve Portugal's unemployment crisis? If something could, it would certainly have to do with elves  ;D
https://brawblether.com

"Poor gauzy souls trying to express ourselves in something tangible." - F. S. Fitzgerald

"Wherever I wander, wherever I rove,
The hills of the Highlands for ever I love." - Robert Burns

Offline JMack

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 11:28:35 AM »
I truly liked the way the Icelanders think and Jmacyk it would be glorious to see a story where big business construction had to literally have board meetings with the elves and goblins and anyone else caught up in development.  Just thinking of the devious hard nosed concessions that could be wrung out from the humans.  ;D
@LadyTy: You imp, you.  :-* Just when I'm turning my mind back to one of my WsIP, you suggest this lovely story-starter. And now the brownies of my imagination are running amok in the cobbler shop.

May take me a few days... (or more, if I'm really going for devious) ;D
Change, when it comes, will step lightly before it kicks like thunder. (GRMatthews)
You are being naive if you think that any sweet and light theme cannot be strangled and force fed it's own flesh. (Nora)
www.starlit-lands.com

Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 11:52:11 PM »

I would emphasize the importance of literature in understanding the social context of the time in which a book was written. I mean, how better to understand the roaring twenties than opening one of Francis Scott Fitzgerald's many masterpieces? Instead of putting censored versions on the hands of the new generations, we should have them confront the original versions and discuss why they are offensive today.

Bleaching the past doesn't make it right. Otherwise we will never learn from our mistakes.

For the new generations to read and discuss the originals is exactly how it should be, Saraband, couldn't agree more. Glad you agree with my feelings on this, I don't often rant ;)

On a totally unrelated point, if you like FSG have a look at the link here

http://www.nickigreenberg.com/the-great-gatsby/

I am lucky enough to have this book and although it may seem weird it is absolutely brilliant. That clip doesn't show enough but Nikki Greenberg is so incredibly clever, she has also done an amazing Inkblot Hamlet .
You can see more in Google images, I can't do short links properly.


@LadyTy: You imp, you.  :-* Just when I'm turning my mind back to one of my WsIP, you suggest this lovely story-starter. And now the brownies of my imagination are running amok in the cobbler shop.

May take me a few days... (or more, if I'm really going for devious) ;D
No rush, son, incredibly OTT devious and wicked sounds good. I'll be looking forward to it........... ;D
“This is the problem with even lesser demons. They come to your doorstep in velvet coats and polished shoes. They tip their hats and smile and demonstrate good table manners. They never show you their tails.” 
Leigh Bardugo, The Language of Thorns: Midnight Tales and Dangerous Magic

Offline Lady Ty

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2015, 10:01:57 AM »
Still off topic but had to share as we were discussing censorship and didn't know where else to post it.

A couple in Idaho have brought out the Clean Read App and a catalogue of books where it can be applied.  It will change all the naughty words in your e-books to good decent clean language. So now you know.  ;D How about that.  ;D Just google it and read some of the hilarious articles going around. 

Apparently you can choose Clean, Cleaner, Squeaky Clean depending on your mood.

My thought is if you don't like explicit language or can't accept swearing, then you should be choosing your books more carefully,maybe I'm missing something here, or am I being too judgmental? I just found it funny really.


« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 10:13:36 AM by Lady Ty »
“This is the problem with even lesser demons. They come to your doorstep in velvet coats and polished shoes. They tip their hats and smile and demonstrate good table manners. They never show you their tails.” 
Leigh Bardugo, The Language of Thorns: Midnight Tales and Dangerous Magic

Offline Saraband

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Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2015, 10:17:20 AM »
Still off topic but had to share as we were discussing censorship and didn't know where else to post it.

A couple in Idaho have brought out the Clean Read App and a catalogue of books where it can be applied.  It will change all the naughty words in your e-books to good decent clean language. So now you know.  ::)How about that.  ;D Just google it and read some of the hilarious articles going around. 

Apparently you can choose Clean, Cleaner, Squeaky Clean depending on your mood.

My thought is if you don't like explicit language or can't accept swearing, then you should be choosing your books more carefully,maybe I'm missing something here, or am I being too judgmental?

If anything I think you're being too soft. I can't empathize with someone who can't bear the thought of hearing/reading a 'naughty' word, as if that was a real problem in our f****d up world. We don't mind reading about torture, rape and guts being spilled on the floor, but the moment we use the most common synonym for the act of making love to another human being it all goes suddenly wrong.

Anyway, that app must have its fun uses in certain books ;D
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"Poor gauzy souls trying to express ourselves in something tangible." - F. S. Fitzgerald

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Offline Rostum

Re: Get those priorities right and show some respect.......
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2015, 04:27:47 PM »
I cannot agree more emphatically revisionist readings destroy the original context of any historical text. If something written 500 or 50 years ago is out of synch with our perceptions of society or our personal views either don't read it or strive to understand the context it was written in. If it would be socially unacceptable to write such a thing now there should be no issue with being able to discuss the work and the reasons it is now not socially acceptable.

With regard to your Idaho profanity filter. I can only apologise for a terrible mistake my Nation made in encouraging a 100 or so religious fundamentalists to leave our shores for yours in 1620. We thought they were just a nuisance. Had we have known...

A long time ago as my daughter was just finishing up at nursery school a very serious note was sent home with her saying that the singing of BA BA Blacksheep would be changed to BA BA Rainbowsheep. Apparently the use of the word black even in the correct context is offensive, who knew.

BTW if you are a mind to go looking there is an Icelander who is a Elf sex expert (I am guessing self proclaimed) who has published a book.