June 01, 2020, 11:32:20 PM

Author Topic: Art vs Artist  (Read 2208 times)

Offline Bender

Art vs Artist
« on: January 28, 2020, 09:14:41 PM »
So does the distinction matter to you?

The internet is rampant with discussions on Kobe's legacy...Basketball hero or a rapist villain?

Lots of famous personalities, movie stars, artists have done some despicable stuff in real life...does this factor into your enjoyment of the books/tv/sports for the person? I've known people who have boycotted stuff and others who simply don't care as art is different from artist.

What say you?
"I shall hunt your firstborn children and laugh with glee as I tell them of your death in terrible detail, with many unpleasant adjectives!" - M-Bot

"Who needs science when you have a dragon?" - Neil DeGrasse Tyson in Sharknado 6

Offline Eclipse

  • Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
  • Dragonrider
  • ***
  • Posts: 4819
  • Total likes: 2378
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2020, 10:07:28 PM »
I would never read Marion Zimmer Bradley no matter how good her novels are


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Zimmer_Bradley

I don’t think anyone knows Kobe outside America , what is his legacy?

Orson Scott Card I wouldn’t read either


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/film/2013/aug/16/ender-s-game-orson-scott-card-essay-obama-hitler

« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 10:14:59 PM by Eclipse »
According to some,* heroic deaths are admirable things

* Generally those who don't have to do it.Politicians and writers spring to mind

Jonathan Stroud:Ptolmy's Gate

Offline Bender

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2020, 10:16:22 PM »
He was accused of rape but didn't get tried as women refused to testify (got death threats and like) and finally settled out of court. Has had an extramarital relationship too. But also came across as a good father and had excellent relationship with his kids. Reconciled with his wife too.
"I shall hunt your firstborn children and laugh with glee as I tell them of your death in terrible detail, with many unpleasant adjectives!" - M-Bot

"Who needs science when you have a dragon?" - Neil DeGrasse Tyson in Sharknado 6

Offline cupiscent

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2020, 01:06:24 AM »
I have very high standards for the personal behaviour of very well-known sports stars, because they function as role models, and they need to act like it. When you add to that that there's a very complicated power dynamic in operation with male sports stars in our society (for many reasons, it is very difficult for a woman to say no in the first place, let alone bring charges later) the whole thing becomes very easily problematic, and I want to see sports stars making public statements, even if they settle quietly out of court.

Am I being harsh, when it's sometimes very young men suddenly thrust into a wild situation of fame and perks? Yes. But they need better role models to help them know how to act in these situations... so they have to BE those role models.

I tend to take a similar view of artists of any kind who have a significant profile. You cast a shadow - you have to decide, actively and thoughtfully, what that shadow is going to be. And if an author has a dodgy reputation, and there are situations in their books that might or might not be dodgy, I'm going to think they're probably dodgy. If they have a really dodgy reputation, I might look at the book far more closely in terms of is-this-dodgy. That's just the shadow that's being cast.

Actions have consequences.

Offline Skip

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2020, 04:23:31 AM »
Not an issue for me. I've read some history books written by some very unpleasant people. I've read primary sources written by some even more unpleasant people. I'm quite certain I've read and enjoyed books written by people who took their secrets to the grave.

I'm not going to refuse to read something just because I happen to know something about that person, whereas I'm willing to read another even though I know nothing about them.

The only way to hold a consistent position is to research every author thoroughly before reading anything they wrote. I should point out that you are reading me, right now.

Offline ScarletBea

  • Welcome party and bringer of Cake. 2nd-in-Command of the Writing Contest
  • Powers That Be
  • Big Wee Hag
  • *
  • Posts: 12031
  • Total likes: 6864
  • Gender: Female
  • Geeky Reading Introvert
    • View Profile
    • LibraryThing profile
Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2020, 12:23:42 PM »
I don't know, to be honest.
I see both sides of the problem and I can't decide.

Do I give away my copies of MZB's books?
I loved them, they helped shape my teenage years...

I do tend to view books by authors who I know in real life in a more positive way, but I don't think that prevents me from thinking they're bad/could be better.

So yep, I have no idea where I stand on this :-\
At home in the Fantasy Faction forum!

I'm "She Who Reigns Over Us All In Crimson Cheer", according to Peat!

Offline NedMarcus

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2020, 01:19:09 PM »
It depends. If someone living a few hundred years ago said something that's considered unacceptable by modern standards, I don't care too much. I think people should be judged according to the times they lived in—that can include old people today who were born in a different era and find it hard to stay modern.

With contemporary authors (or other artists) it's harder, but it still depends. Just saying something I don't like or supporting a political viewpoint I don't like is not enough to stop me reading them. But if it was something really bad (interpret that as you will) then it may stop me enjoying the book or whatever was produced.

Offline Rostum

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2020, 02:05:59 PM »
Wow great topic @Bender.

I too have works by Bradley and OSC that I will not read again. Certain political music that I will listen to and some I won't. I never owned any Michael Jackson or Lost Prophets, but an ex did and threw out both and cried about doing so and being let down by people she idolised.

I have a wall full of DVD's I am not going to not watch any of them because Weinstein's companies financed them but won't watch anything with Spacey in it. There has to be a point of separation or you can limit and self censor yourself into not doing a lot.

@cupiscent I am totally in agreement about sports stars and feel this issue is worse in America where not only the money but the influence is greater and the pedestal they are put upon is so much higher.
 How about female pop stars pushing expectations of beauty, wearing revealing outfits and shaking what they got. The music industry has no issue with 'sex sells' and is targeted at children? This has an effect on both boys and girls and largely is not positive.

@Skip A big difference in reading academic works often from a less tolerant past for work or knowledge and perspective than reading fantasy for fun. I am concerned about how long you will be able to read such works as I think we are headed towards a round of non-religious book burnings as the current mood is to stifle debate and ignore context.

Offline S. K. Inkslinger

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2020, 02:28:46 PM »
As long as the book is written well and within my spectrum of interest, I'm reading it. Case closed.  8)

Offline Bender

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2020, 03:02:09 PM »
I too have works by Bradley and OSC that I will not read again. Certain political music that I will listen to and some I won't. I never owned any Michael Jackson or Lost Prophets, but an ex did and threw out both and cried about doing so and being let down by people she idolised.

I have a wall full of DVD's I am not going to not watch any of them because Weinstein's companies financed them but won't watch anything with Spacey in it. There has to be a point of separation or you can limit and self censor yourself into not doing a lot.

Exactly. Bad people also doing good things conundrum.

I could never stop loving MJs music despite what he did/was in real life. Argument can be made that buying albums will contribute to artist's benefit...but that's a stretch imo.

I'm kinda leaning towards art is seperate from artist viewpoint.
"I shall hunt your firstborn children and laugh with glee as I tell them of your death in terrible detail, with many unpleasant adjectives!" - M-Bot

"Who needs science when you have a dragon?" - Neil DeGrasse Tyson in Sharknado 6

Offline Skip

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2020, 04:54:18 PM »
>A big difference in reading academic works often from a less tolerant past for work or knowledge and perspective than reading fantasy for fun.

And what is that difference? If we are judging an author on their personal life, and making buying and reading decisions based on that, whether the book is fact or fiction seems irrelevant.

I hold, also, to my previous point. If we are going to judge authors on their personal life, if it's really that important, then we are surely obliged to research each and ever author we read before even buying the book. If it's important, it shouldn't be a matter of what we happen to learn about them accidentally.
Visit Altearth

Offline Rostum

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2020, 10:40:59 PM »
Every assigned reading to students they were unhappy with? Ever made an exception?

Offline Skip

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2020, 02:46:01 AM »
Every assigned reading to students they were unhappy with? Ever made an exception?

I'm not sure to whom this is addressed, nor how it connects with ethical objections to an author's personal life or views causing someone to decide never to read them. Help me out; I'm slow sometimes.
Visit Altearth

Offline cupiscent

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2020, 02:58:18 AM »
How about female pop stars pushing expectations of beauty, wearing revealing outfits and shaking what they got. The music industry has no issue with 'sex sells' and is targeted at children? This has an effect on both boys and girls and largely is not positive.

HMMM this is something I've thought much less about because I don't consume pop music/media. I may start having lots of damn opinions when my child grows up, of course. Indeed, already I'm looking with disapproval at the differences between girl clothes and boy clothes; my child is four, but her shorts are very short, while boy-shorts are often nearly knee-length.

At risk of straying from the topic at hand: I am not sure about blaming female celebrities for what society deems is appropriate/necessary/beautiful for women. Especially when those female celebrities are often manufactured by male-dominated industries. Witness the current Birds of Prey film versus Harley Quinn's depiction in Suicide Squad for an interesting side-by-side on female and male gaze. A lot of the same elements are present, but the whole vibe is quite different. (If you'd like a different example, I'm fond of the Hugh Jackman for men vs for women comparison.)

But, I mean, certainly I think less of Miley Cyrus for her unrepentant history of cultural appropriation, being a party to the demeaning of women, trash-talking other women, and other less-than-great behaviour. I don't like Taylor Swift's music, but I have a fairly high opinion of her personally for the way she has grown up and discussed her previous poor behaviours and messages, and her willingness to learn and try to do better.

Offline Rostum

Re: Art vs Artist
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2020, 02:54:21 PM »
@Skip I would say there is a very big difference between reading for fun and reading as a requirement. For me history may be both. Yes I was asking you about students reading and there is a very big difference between the two. Someone who wishes not to read required reading probably shouldn't be on the course. When I read for entertainment it is my choice what I read and if an author is dumb enough or religiously/politically motivated enough to make a stand I find intolerent I am not going to financially support them.

@cupiscent I took big issue with playboy logoed T-shirts for 8 year old girls and inappropriate slogans acrosss them often available from my local supermarket.

I am not blaming female celebs I think its the management teams that determine wardrobe for the most part, have fun with your daughter when she decides she wants to twerk like beyonce at 9.

Thanks for the link Good Housekeeping may not be the cover to compare though I couldn't find him on the cover of Cosmo but they have a library of shots of him though.

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/love-sex/g797/cosmo-man-we-love-hugh-jackman-86875/?slide=1
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 03:09:12 PM by Rostum »