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Author Topic: About Digital Rights Management  (Read 10826 times)

Offline Francis Knight

Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2012, 05:25:25 PM »
Which she sold them the right to do (leased the copyright in effect), despite supposedly being pro the free exchange of copyright/IP. And the fact the pub would do that would be either heavily implied (because that's what pubs do), or in the contract. She sold them that permission.

Of course it would be in the contract. But how exactly could she get a book professionally published without selling those rights? If those editors want to give her $100,000 for something she'd sell for free, more fool them.



Exactly! A load of people called her on that (and then when the Cease and Desist went out, called her on that too because she had to know that would happen - given her background she would be incredibly naive to think it wouldn't)

If she was really pro free distribution of copyright and against the idea of intellectual property, she wouldn't have sold the rights, no?
Quote

If you start saying file sharing is completely wrong - you are also saying book sharing is completely wrong and that second hand book shops and libraries are wrong - and that we should only read books bought for and paid for by ourselves and that were purchased new.

 I think the difference is here, is scale, and the internets taking people by surprise.

If I buy a book and then give it to friend/donate it to a charity shop, that's just one copy, given over to one extra person (or maybe I'd lend it to two or three people). It's very small scale and you can think of it as promo - maybe these extra people will get turned onto a new author and buy another of their books new.

With piracy, someone can upload a copy and thousands can (and do) partake of it, and if they get turned on to a new author well, they can just download the whole library of their backlist - it's the sheer scale of the thing.

Personally, I think that most pirates aren't lost sales - they would have never paid for the book in the first place. Most people (hah, maybe I'm just hopelessly deluded, but I hope not) will pay for something if the price is fair. So DRN is not only ineffective, it isn't getting at the reason people do it in the first place. Ofc I have no idea what anyone can do instead, or even if there is anything anyone can do - like I say, there are a lot of people out there who think all art should be free and screw the artist.



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Offline Autumn2May

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Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2012, 05:32:13 PM »

Probably the best solution would be a technology that meant you only had one e-book copy.  You can send it to a friend's e-reader, but as soon as you do its physically removed from your e-reader, and only when your friend sends it back do you have a copy on your e-reader to read again.  (Does this make sense?)  Not sure the tech exists, anyone know if this is possible?

That's actually how Kindles work. You can loan out certain books and when you do, you no longer have access to that book until they send it back or a certain period of time pass and it is sent back to you by the Kindle (I think. There might be a preset time limit.). I haven't tried it yet, but that's how it's supposed to work. Now you can only do it with certain books at the moment, but it seems like a decent system.

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Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2012, 05:41:11 PM »

Probably the best solution would be a technology that meant you only had one e-book copy.  You can send it to a friend's e-reader, but as soon as you do its physically removed from your e-reader, and only when your friend sends it back do you have a copy on your e-reader to read again.  (Does this make sense?)  Not sure the tech exists, anyone know if this is possible?

That's actually how Kindles work. You can loan out certain books and when you do, you no longer have access to that book until they send it back or a certain period of time pass and it is sent back to you by the Kindle (I think. There might be a preset time limit.). I haven't tried it yet, but that's how it's supposed to work. Now you can only do it with certain books at the moment, but it seems like a decent system.

Oh that is interesting ... though again its limiting you and your friends to Kindle.  It means you all have to have a Kindle which is an enforced monopoly (or summat.)   The system should be that you get an e-book - lend it to your friend where it automatically converts to be read on their e-reader, and then when it comes back to you - it converts back to the format your e-reader uses. 
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Offline Nighteyes

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Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2012, 05:44:14 PM »

 I think the difference is here, is scale, and the internets taking people by surprise.

If I buy a book and then give it to friend/donate it to a charity shop, that's just one copy, given over to one extra person (or maybe I'd lend it to two or three people). It's very small scale and you can think of it as promo - maybe these extra people will get turned onto a new author and buy another of their books new.

With piracy, someone can upload a copy and thousands can (and do) partake of it, and if they get turned on to a new author well, they can just download the whole library of their backlist - it's the sheer scale of the thing.

Personally, I think that most pirates aren't lost sales - they would have never paid for the book in the first place. Most people (hah, maybe I'm just hopelessly deluded, but I hope not) will pay for something if the price is fair. So DRN is not only ineffective, it isn't getting at the reason people do it in the first place. Ofc I have no idea what anyone can do instead, or even if there is anything anyone can do - like I say, there are a lot of people out there who think all art should be free and screw the artist.



So my example I gave would be acceptable because my scale is still refined to close acquaintances as it would have been with books?  Both my mum and friend buy lots of books as well, so they are actively pumping money into the industry.
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Offline Francis Knight

Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2012, 05:53:23 PM »
I don't know whether acceptable is the word (and let's face it, my definition of acceptable means not a hill of beans)....but I'm sure it's certainly a lot easier for an author to look favourably on it!

But yes, certainly I'd have no problem with that - people lending out my books to friends/relations or giving them to a charity shop. Making them available for thousands of people? Not so much. Ofc, then you get the 'well where do you draw the line?' Thing is, it seems to me to be mostly those two extremes - lending to a few, or giving to (potentially) everyone with a net connection.
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Offline Autumn2May

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Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2012, 05:56:50 PM »

Probably the best solution would be a technology that meant you only had one e-book copy.  You can send it to a friend's e-reader, but as soon as you do its physically removed from your e-reader, and only when your friend sends it back do you have a copy on your e-reader to read again.  (Does this make sense?)  Not sure the tech exists, anyone know if this is possible?

That's actually how Kindles work. You can loan out certain books and when you do, you no longer have access to that book until they send it back or a certain period of time pass and it is sent back to you by the Kindle (I think. There might be a preset time limit.). I haven't tried it yet, but that's how it's supposed to work. Now you can only do it with certain books at the moment, but it seems like a decent system.

Oh that is interesting ... though again its limiting you and your friends to Kindle.  It means you all have to have a Kindle which is an enforced monopoly (or summat.)   The system should be that you get an e-book - lend it to your friend where it automatically converts to be read on their e-reader, and then when it comes back to you - it converts back to the format your e-reader uses. 

You can read them on a computer instead of a Kindle, but yeah you should be able to loan them to anyone. That's where the DRM gets in the way and proves that, once again, it's stupid.  You should also be able to loan any book you've bought to a friend, not just some of them.

Offline Autumn2May

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Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2012, 05:59:27 PM »

 I think the difference is here, is scale, and the internets taking people by surprise.

If I buy a book and then give it to friend/donate it to a charity shop, that's just one copy, given over to one extra person (or maybe I'd lend it to two or three people). It's very small scale and you can think of it as promo - maybe these extra people will get turned onto a new author and buy another of their books new.

With piracy, someone can upload a copy and thousands can (and do) partake of it, and if they get turned on to a new author well, they can just download the whole library of their backlist - it's the sheer scale of the thing.

Personally, I think that most pirates aren't lost sales - they would have never paid for the book in the first place. Most people (hah, maybe I'm just hopelessly deluded, but I hope not) will pay for something if the price is fair. So DRN is not only ineffective, it isn't getting at the reason people do it in the first place. Ofc I have no idea what anyone can do instead, or even if there is anything anyone can do - like I say, there are a lot of people out there who think all art should be free and screw the artist.



So my example I gave would be acceptable because my scale is still refined to close acquaintances as it would have been with books?  Both my mum and friend buy lots of books as well, so they are actively pumping money into the industry.

I don't know whether acceptable is the word (and let's face it, my definition of acceptable means not a hill of beans)....but I'm sure it's certainly a lot easier for an author to look favourably on it!

But yes, certainly I'd have no problem with that - people lending out my books to friends/relations or giving them to a charity shop. Making them available for thousands of people? Not so much. Ofc, then you get the 'well where do you draw the line?' Thing is, it seems to me to be mostly those two extremes - lending to a few, or giving to (potentially) everyone with a net connection.

Agreed. I think it should be okay, but technically it's still against copyright law to do so. :P That's the trouble with piracy laws and DRM in general. They are bad and ineffective. They need to be completely rewritten so that they make sense in reality instead of just in someone's head, whoever's head that is. :P

Offline Francis Knight

Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2012, 06:19:57 PM »
Is it?

I'm looking at a copyright notice at the start of a book right now. It says the book can't be reproduced, or transmitted or stored in a retrieval system, and can't be distributed in anything other than the cover it has. It doesn't say 'must not be leant or otherwise transferred' or anything tha might cover lending (if it did, libraries would be screwed, wouldn't they?)

Under US copyright law, it says this:
Quote
Under the first sale doctrine (section 109 of the Copyright Act), ownership of a physical copy of a copyright-protected work permits lending, reselling, disposing, etc. of the item,

UK law states:
Quote
The law gives the creators of literary, dramatic, musical, artistic works, sound recordings, broadcasts, films and typographical arrangement of published editions, rights to control the ways in which their material may be used.

The rights cover; broadcast and public performance, copying, adapting, issuing, renting and lending copies to the public.
However, I'm not sure if that covers personal lending or not.

So, I'm not 100% sure lending a copy of a book to your mate is in breach of copyright. I'm not sure it isn't either! ETA: though looking at a couple of other places, it seems that it's okay? Ofc IANAL and I'm not up on legalese so maybe I'm reading it wrong...*scratches head*

« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 06:24:03 PM by Francis Knight »
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Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2012, 06:31:48 PM »
Lending my books seems to be okay, as is selling them on.  I just can't copy my physical books.  But reading the initial pages of an e-book - and actually the bit about copying and reproducing the book has been removed entirely.  It just says that copyright belongs to the author.
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Offline Autumn2May

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Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2012, 06:38:30 PM »
Is it?

I'm looking at a copyright notice at the start of a book right now. It says the book can't be reproduced, or transmitted or stored in a retrieval system, and can't be distributed in anything other than the cover it has. It doesn't say 'must not be leant or otherwise transferred' or anything tha might cover lending (if it did, libraries would be screwed, wouldn't they?)

Under US copyright law, it says this:
Quote
Under the first sale doctrine (section 109 of the Copyright Act), ownership of a physical copy of a copyright-protected work permits lending, reselling, disposing, etc. of the item,

UK law states:
Quote
The law gives the creators of literary, dramatic, musical, artistic works, sound recordings, broadcasts, films and typographical arrangement of published editions, rights to control the ways in which their material may be used.

The rights cover; broadcast and public performance, copying, adapting, issuing, renting and lending copies to the public.
However, I'm not sure if that covers personal lending or not.

So, I'm not 100% sure lending a copy of a book to your mate is in breach of copyright. I'm not sure it isn't either! ETA: though looking at a couple of other places, it seems that it's okay? Ofc IANAL and I'm not up on legalese so maybe I'm reading it wrong...*scratches head*



Well it is okay, if they give it back. If you're making a copy and giving it someone to read, and then they keep it, that is where the problem is. With a physical book or a lending e-copy that you can't access when you loan it out, you make darn sure that you get it back, and there is still only one copy of it. If you are copying a file and sending the copy out, but keeping the original, then you're not really lending it, you're giving a copy of something you own that most likely will not be returned.

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Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2012, 07:48:14 PM »
Publishers and therefore authors only get money when the book is sold to the retailers, and therefore they get nothing from people reading their books through borrowing from a library, a friend or buying their books second hand.  

I should throw out here that authors have traditionally been paid (small) royalties on library loans, up to a yearly allowance of £3000. The government were planning to do away with that during the library cuts, but I'm not sure if they did.

If she was really pro free distribution of copyright and against the idea of intellectual property, she wouldn't have sold the rights, no?

Not necessarily. After all, if I was in her shoes, I would sell the rights happy in the knowledge that even if the publisher tries to stop piracy, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of doing it. She's compensated for her time and everyone who wants to get the book free will be able to pirate it. Job done.


I think the difference is here, is scale, and the internets taking people by surprise.

Ja, I made the point about scale earlier...

Another of my friends once argued that the difference between second-hand [purchasing] and piracy is one-to-one vs. one-to-many. But here, I would point out that the argument has shifted from principle to scale and therefore what's important is whether piracy is commercially beneficial.

Also, I would point out that sites like Amazon make the second-hand market much larger scale and effectively one-to-many.
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Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2012, 07:50:03 PM »
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Offline Francis Knight

Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2012, 08:11:28 PM »

If she was really pro free distribution of copyright and against the idea of intellectual property, she wouldn't have sold the rights, no?

Not necessarily. After all, if I was in her shoes, I would sell the rights happy in the knowledge that even if the publisher tries to stop piracy, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of doing it. She's compensated for her time and everyone who wants to get the book free will be able to pirate it. Job done.


I don't think her fellow Pirate Partiers saw it in quite the same way...it goes against quite a lot she'd previously advocated/supposedly stood for. And really, to say that copyright distribution should be free and the concept of IP is disgusting and then flog your book to a pub? That a pretty sharp 180 turnabout. Ofc, that often happens when money gets added to the equation - if I'm not earning any, I can afford to be liberal with my IP. If I have the chance to make some money...sod that, line my pockets, baby. If you stand on a moral/ethical platform, it helps if you stick by those morals/ethics, if you want to be taken seriously.

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Offline Arry

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Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2012, 05:40:40 PM »

Probably the best solution would be a technology that meant you only had one e-book copy.  You can send it to a friend's e-reader, but as soon as you do its physically removed from your e-reader, and only when your friend sends it back do you have a copy on your e-reader to read again.  (Does this make sense?)  Not sure the tech exists, anyone know if this is possible?

That's actually how Kindles work. You can loan out certain books and when you do, you no longer have access to that book until they send it back or a certain period of time pass and it is sent back to you by the Kindle (I think. There might be a preset time limit.). I haven't tried it yet, but that's how it's supposed to work. Now you can only do it with certain books at the moment, but it seems like a decent system.

Oh that is interesting ... though again its limiting you and your friends to Kindle.  It means you all have to have a Kindle which is an enforced monopoly (or summat.)   The system should be that you get an e-book - lend it to your friend where it automatically converts to be read on their e-reader, and then when it comes back to you - it converts back to the format your e-reader uses. 
The Kindle lending system works well ... when it is available (and you either both have kindles or are willing to read on a non e-reader). However, I have over 200 books on my kindle and only a very small percentage of them or so are lendable (esp. if you dont include the free or really low priced self pubbed books ... then I think I could count them on one hand).

I have borrowed books from a coworker ... you get them for 14 days or until you manually return them (just like a library book). Another restriction with the Kindle lending is that you can only loan out a book once. I can understand limiting the lending feature so that users dont abuse it, it would be easy to set up online sites to "swap" books and loan out books to anyone. But I dont think allowing a user to loan out a book twice would be unreasonable. Since once is better than nothing, I'm not going to complain...it's an attempt to address it, and they have to start somewhere. I think there are also some restrictions if you try to loan to another country (if the book is not available for the kindle there, I dont think you can lend it).

Another note on lending, I am happy my library lends out ebooks ... but they dont have all ebook formats for everything (some may only be e-pub, some may only be kindle). However, they do count all formats they have available for a book as one copy, so when you check out a book, you select your desired format from those available, the total number of ebooks available for that book goes down by one while you have it checked out. They dont do separate counts for each format, its just a total for the book. Hopefully if there is not a universal format adopted (which would be ideal for the consumer), the lending features will at least move towards the library model. That might be a bit much to hope for at this point, but it would be nice.
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Offline Nighteyes

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Re: About Digital Rights Management
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2012, 07:20:21 PM »
Look at this great deal from Tor.  Set your own price, choose where your money actually goes, and all DRM free and available in a variety of formats.  Could this be the future of book selling?

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/10/get-eight-great-sff-ebooks-for-the-price-of-your-choice
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