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Author Topic: Captain America: Civil War  (Read 3070 times)

Offline Hedin

Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2016, 02:02:32 PM »
Saw this on Saturday and really liked it.  I think Winter Solider had a better storyline (it probably has the best story out of all of the Marvel movies) but I think Civil War had much better action scenes.  I agree that this is what the second Avengers probably should have been but it does work at as a Captain America as the plot mainly revolves around his action.

I really liked Spiderman and felt like they might finally get him right.  He's supposed to be quippy and I don't think any of the other iterations have gotten that right.  At first I was put off by Marisa Tomei but then realized that she is in her 50s and so when you think of Peter as being in the 16-18 year old range so that works.

I'm excited to see what they do with Infinity War.  There's now two Avengers teams running around out there, I imagine the first movie will be them fighting separately and then the second movie they come together again.

Offline Nighteyes

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2016, 04:31:04 PM »
Well actually you also have Thor and Hulk gone rogue and the Guardians out there (as well as Doctor Strange and the Defenders) so you could have all sorts of independent fights happening.
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Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2016, 08:59:27 PM »
I was disappointed that they didn't make more of the dark side of the accords, and spiderman was supposed to switch sides after seeing some stuff.  Without that, I didn't see the point in adding him.

Offline tebakutis

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2016, 09:40:26 PM »
I was disappointed that they didn't make more of the dark side of the accords, and spiderman was supposed to switch sides after seeing some stuff.  Without that, I didn't see the point in adding him.

Remember that the Sovokia Accords aren't limited to this single movie. It's highly likely they will factor into plot and character decisions in the upcoming movies. For example, last week's episode of Agents of Shield namedropped the Accords a number of times, and they also were discussed in regards to the team's Inhumans.

So I suspect they'll milk the Sovokia Accords for a few movies. For example, it could be Dr. Strange goes underground to avoid them, and since they've already confirmed Tony Stark will be in the Spiderman movie (Homecoming), it's quite possible that Peter Parker could start pro-accords (because Tony is technically pro-accords, and is bankrolling him) and then change his mind during the course of his movie.

Basically, I don't think the Sovokia Accords are going to be limited to Civil War. They were still in affect when it ended. They'll likely influence movies to come, maybe even up to the first Infinity War.

I imagine once Thanos shows up and starts wrecking people, the Accords are likely out the window. Earth will need all the powered people it can get.

Offline Nora

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2016, 01:52:27 PM »
Well now! I did see it. And man, was it bad!

Totally sunk into its own lore, I understood about a quarter of it since the movie obviously cannot be appreciated by anyone who hasn't watched all the previous ones. Fair to some respect, but really nothing stands on its own in this movie.

It was boring as hell, I could not finish it. I fast forwarded through the end after the airport scene. It's slow to pick up, never managed to get me interested, character development was nowhere to be found, photography was even worse than on the latest Xmen. 

One line made me smile.

I'm so out of this particular franchise...
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Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2016, 04:21:14 PM »
See, but now I'm confused. This is one of those movies that explores the consequences of superpowers...

I guess if you haven't seen the ones before it wouldn't have as much of an impact, but still. I was originally going to take someone who hadn't seen many of the others before. Glad I didn't now.

Offline Nora

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2016, 04:46:04 PM »
I only missed Age of Ultron.

This movie, going on the consequences of superpowers? Yeah, maybe, on the governmental scale of things! Horrendously dry and boring!
They're sitting around in leather chairs arguing whether or not they should sign a paper. Then the cops get involved, and there is more dry dialogue about being lawful or not. Heroes get involved without having any idea of what their faction stand for, nor any problem fighting their own kin, very few years after they had to fight aliens...

No. I had no feelings for anyone, I felt no anguish anywhere about the powers they yield. Only Stark showing a bit of humanity.
The problem is like that : I want a Shakespeare play about love and passion, and you hand me this movie, saying it deals in just that, but what you're giving me is a 200 pages dry scientific report on the hormonal work behind the feeling of passion.

Now Watchmen is a movie about dealing with the consequences of powers. And it's a movie that explores incredible characters that go through amazing arcs. Give me a Rorschach or Dr Manhattan over Cap or Bucky, any day.
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2016, 06:03:50 PM »
If someone told you that Civil War would be like a Shakespeare play, then they need a good slap.

From what I saw, they did have a problem fighting each other. Maybe that wasn't shown clearly enough through facial expressions or something? Through the dialogue, they had moments where they expressed their reluctance. And, after the events of the last Avengers movie, and with Thor and Banner missing, they're all kind of on edge with each other anyway. In the comics, you get more thought bubbles about how they're reluctant to fight and how they really don't want to, but they don't see another way out. I would say both sides should've argued among themselves for a brief period about fighting the other side, but you would probably call that boring as well.

Let's look at a character like Black Panther though. He doesn't see it as fighting his own kind. For him, he's fighting the villains. For the others, even though they're reluctant, they firmly believe they're in the right. Over the course of the next films, if we continue to follow the comics, characters will switch sides, we may have another confrontation, etc. I'll admit to being surprised we only saw the beginnings of the conflict in this one, but hopefully the next few Marvel movies will continue to escalate it.

Of course, if you want to bail out of the movies, there's no shame in that whatsoever. I'm just trying to better understand the other side of this.

Offline Nora

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2016, 03:10:27 AM »
If someone told you that Civil War would be like a Shakespeare play, then they need a good slap.

Not, it's only me making a parallel.


From what I saw, they did have a problem fighting each other. Maybe that wasn't shown clearly enough through facial expressions or something? Through the dialogue, they had moments where they expressed their reluctance.

No, it's not a facial expression issue. It's an everything issue : they're sitting in a condo, having the driest political conversations ever, and their struggle with their power is abstract. Stark looks a bit pissed, the Witch looks a bit touched by what she did, though not much, and she seems much better as soon as she gets to hurt her own fellows and trash an entire airport..
What I mean is that there are no emotions going on. No real, heartfelt struggle for the characters. No one considers whether or not they should stop what they do, like Rogue does in xmen for example, or Dr Manhattan.
There is no inner dialogue going on with these people : the top dog picks a side over signing a paper and some formality that, in real life, would never have needed to go to fists, and the others blindly follow, even accepting to get in the brawl without a shred of idea of what that implies for them, and not a care in the world, like Antman or Spiderman, or make a turn around that disgusted me with their character, like Scarlet Witch, who goes from having some after thoughts about her killing people to happily trashing the place and swinging normal humans like scarlet johanson  around like rag-dolls.
I never felt a moment of real self doubt in these characters, despite all the boring exposition time. Captain America was the worst of them all in my opinion.


And, after the events of the last Avengers movie, and with Thor and Banner missing, they're all kind of on edge with each other anyway. In the comics, you get more thought bubbles about how they're reluctant to fight and how they really don't want to, but they don't see another way out. I would say both sides should've argued among themselves for a brief period about fighting the other side, but you would probably call that boring as well.

Sorry, but if a movie depends on me reading the entire comic book lore to excuse the poor dialogue and poor acting, then the movie deserves to be trashed. A movie is a movie, and ought to be treated as such.
I try not to judge book movies by the books, but in order for that to happen, the movie needs to be independent from the source material. I'm already pissed off by how unintelligible it was as a standalone, so let's not add the comics.
This film never said it was the 4th of some series. It's in a cinematic universe, but it's not officially the Xth piece of an instalment. As such, I think they ought to have a little bit more exposition on what's going on, or a plot a little bit more independent.
But they can't can they, since everything depends on the love story between bucky and cap.
I think the premise behind this is idiotic as well. They're fighting over signing a paper. Scenes like Black widow and the archer dude being like "hey, we're still friends right?" did not make me laugh, they only made me wonder why I was wasting my time watching people hitting each other, knowing they only mean to hurt a bit, not too much, since they're all pals IRL. Bouh! Boring! 

Let's look at a character like Black Panther though. He doesn't see it as fighting his own kind. For him, he's fighting the villains. For the others, even though they're reluctant, they firmly believe they're in the right. Over the course of the next films, if we continue to follow the comics, characters will switch sides, we may have another confrontation, etc. I'll admit to being surprised we only saw the beginnings of the conflict in this one, but hopefully the next few Marvel movies will continue to escalate it.


I hope for everyone's careers that there is no continuation to this Arc. Are you serious, is there really a bunch of comics separating heroes on whether they want to sign a paper or not?
I find that uninteresting. It's an excuse to watch CGI brawls where no one is going to get hurt. I'll pass on such crude lack of plot.
Black Panther was the only one who was mildly interesting as a hero, and yet he doesn't ask questions to Cap when they ride together, cap doesn't trust anyone with the truth, cause, hey, they might listen and unify, and wouldn't that ruin the concept of the film??
BP was really the only threat that seemed to justify the fight. But Bucky... Bucky was picked like a flower that's guilty, all the way in romania (by german soldiers??), without anyone thinking that maybe they could ask if he's got an alibi? Someone serious who could tell they spent the day with him, since it's not meant to be him bombing the place?
But no, cause if he had an alibi, everyone would unify as well. Dumb.

Of course, if you want to bail out of the movies, there's no shame in that whatsoever. I'm just trying to better understand the other side of this.

Oh don't worry for me, I consider it no shame at all, and won't break a sweat over what others might think of me for closing that door.
The entire movie was a bore, poorly shot, flat, with a weak plot and no real character arcs. I will indeed close that door. 
I think another part that really grips me that might not reach you, is that while you can listen to the dialogues and focus more on the plot and the characters, and what is happening in the scenes, I don't know how much your way of watching movies can carry through photography. The Avengers has pretty weak photography overall, but on movies like this one it's particularly glaring. The scenes are shot from the most clinical, boring point of view. No effort is done to make it original or beautiful.
In movies like Midnight Special you get scenes which are enthralling, when all you have is music and a shot of cars going over a hill at dawn or dusk, and the road is black like hell, the hills capped in red-orange light that comes grazing the tops, and the cars are like dark monsters you can only follow through their burning front lights and the glimmers of the sun on their frames, and the dust they raise. It's hypnotic, and it comes from the angle chosen to shoot the scene, the time and light, the aperture of the camera... It's a little effort that makes things interesting.
It made me devour the screen, pay attention to a simple car scene.

In Civil war when people are taken in a convoy of cars you get the pov of an angry driver from outside his window for a couple of seconds, then a shot rising over a corner as the convoy cars go through, like shot from a traffic light, then simple face shots as they do a bit of dialogue, and then a shaky cam of some uninspiring german building taken from the car's window.
Then boom, we're back in a blue toned conference room with glass walls everywhere, like in every other scene in avenger movies. Back to shots that go from Tony's head to Cap's head, and it's a bore. Not only plot wise, but visually too.
It's aseptic, it tells me what I need to know but nothing more.
If the movie was beautiful, like Watchmen or Midnight Special were, I could excuse the plot more. But it's not. It's static cameras with straightforward, uninspired angles. They rely on CGI to get things interesting.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 03:14:31 AM by Nora »
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2016, 04:55:13 AM »
Let's look at a character like Black Panther though. He doesn't see it as fighting his own kind. For him, he's fighting the villains. For the others, even though they're reluctant, they firmly believe they're in the right. Over the course of the next films, if we continue to follow the comics, characters will switch sides, we may have another confrontation, etc. I'll admit to being surprised we only saw the beginnings of the conflict in this one, but hopefully the next few Marvel movies will continue to escalate it.


I hope for everyone's careers that there is no continuation to this Arc. Are you serious, is there really a bunch of comics separating heroes on whether they want to sign a paper or not?
I find that uninteresting. It's an excuse to watch CGI brawls where no one is going to get hurt. I'll pass on such crude lack of plot.
Black Panther was the only one who was mildly interesting as a hero, and yet he doesn't ask questions to Cap when they ride together, cap doesn't trust anyone with the truth, cause, hey, they might listen and unify, and wouldn't that ruin the concept of the film??
BP was really the only threat that seemed to justify the fight. But Bucky... Bucky was picked like a flower that's guilty, all the way in romania (by german soldiers??), without anyone thinking that maybe they could ask if he's got an alibi? Someone serious who could tell they spent the day with him, since it's not meant to be him bombing the place?
But no, cause if he had an alibi, everyone would unify as well. Dumb.
Two things. One, in the comics, and possibly in later movies, someone important does actually die. It's one of the turning points in the conflict, since it's Iron Man's fault. I'm not sure if they'll do it, but it would be awesome. Also, after the war ends, one of the major heroes gets killed as well. It's pretty alarming.

As far as The Winter Soldier goes, it wouldn't have made sense for him to have an alabai. He's already off the grid, so no one has a good reason to be spending time around him. He's still being hunted, but not actively enough for someone to know where he is. And of course the conflict goes beyond Cap and Winter Soldier. I think you're giving this relationship to much credit. It's more about the right of the people. Privacy over security. I do agree that in the movie, the Accords were downplayed far too much. In the comics, it's not limited to a specific group. Every single superhero has to register with the government, including their full name, address, etc. If you don't register, you'll be hunted. I'm a bit frustrated that they didn't make it dramatic enough here. Could they possibly expand on the Accords? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Offline Nora

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2016, 06:30:55 AM »
I'm sorry, but looking for an alibi is rule 101 of policework when a suspect is involved. If Bucky could prove he was with some people, or at his bank, or that his phone was used in romania at the time, etc, etc, then he would have to be freed, at least of the suspicion of bombing the UN.
That's how police works. You're not legally allowed to keep someone, not even for interrogation, if they have a solid alibi. Here it's not even mentioned in passing, not even the guy who interviews him fakes a proper interest. It's unrealistic.
It doesn't matter if he can't have an alibi, it matters that alibis don't seem to exist in the universe of Civil War.
An innocent would forward his alibi.

"What were you doing yesterday?"
"I was grilling sausages with my neighbour Mohamed and his family!"
*cops go to Mohamed's place, ask the same question, get the same answer, even see the pictures uploaded on fb on this occasion, give a call to cops at station, Bucky gets freed*

That's how it works in real life. Here he acts so guilty, kicks so many cops, it's cringe worthy. Especially how Cap helps him!
I understand that Bucky can't have one for the sake of the movie, but they could have brushed on the fact he doesn't have a valid one.


As for the accords, sure, as you put it, massive registration of everyone sounds a lot more like something to fight about. In the present case, Cap just weakens his character by becoming a criminal, cop-assaulting guy, for the sake of his mentally unstable pal, and retains crucial information for no other reason than "plot".
In this instance I was for Iron Man's side. In the case of a wider registration, I don't know whose side I'd be on.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 06:44:21 AM by Nora »
"She will need coffee soon, or molecular degeneration will set in. Her French phrasing will take over even more strongly, and soon she will dissolve into a puddle of alienation and Kierkegaardian despair."  ~ Jmack

Wishy washy lyricism and maudlin unrequited love are my specialty - so said Lady_Ty

Offline ultamentkiller

Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2016, 01:37:51 PM »
I'm sorry, but looking for an alibi is rule 101 of policework when a suspect is involved. If Bucky could prove he was with some people, or at his bank, or that his phone was used in romania at the time, etc, etc, then he would have to be freed, at least of the suspicion of bombing the UN.
Not if you're viewed as a terrorist in America. At least that's my understanding. I think they were less concerned with finding out where he was, and more concerned with being seen punishing someone. In America, they don't have those rules for terrorists. You lose all your rights. Unless the person accusing you actually cares about the truth and not public appearances, you don't have a chance.

Offline Nora

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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2016, 02:16:30 PM »
But it's the germans who arrest them.  :D
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2016, 02:18:09 PM »
But it's the germans who arrest them.  :D

Exactly! 
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Re: Captain America: Civil War
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2016, 09:22:47 PM »
It was great. That is all I will say for now, until more people get time to see it. It's up there with my favorite Marvel movies and was pretty much what I was hoping Age of Ultron would be.

"Avengers" movie is really very great mine too favorite. But captain America is the fantastic movie. In this movie Mine favorite is Ironman, he is fantastic and good too. Tony is my favorite comedian hero.