Fantasy Faction

Fantasy Faction => Fantasy Movies, Comic Books & Video Games => Topic started by: Saraband on November 28, 2014, 04:20:35 PM

Title: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Saraband on November 28, 2014, 04:20:35 PM
So, the moment many have been waiting for has finally come: the first official trailer for Star Wars: Episode VII is finally upon us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOVFvcNfvE

 :D
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Yora on November 28, 2014, 05:34:21 PM
Alright, that means no hype for me then. I can live with that and re-read Heir to the Empire.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: DBASKLS on November 28, 2014, 07:13:55 PM
Well it doesn't give much away - which is probably a good thing.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on November 28, 2014, 08:46:11 PM
It will be the first of many I am sure. Every time I hear that music the hair goes up on the back of my back and I'm back to being a little kid and watching A New Hope (it was still called Star Wars then) for the first time again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Saraband on November 28, 2014, 09:08:25 PM
What about that new lightsaber?  :)

Every time I hear that music the hair goes up on the back of my back

Yes, I can't help but getting excited at the prospect of spending more time in the Star Wars universe.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Alex Hormann on November 28, 2014, 09:18:45 PM
What about that new lightsaber?  :)

Nononononononono. The poor Sith'll end up cutting his own arm of. And the start of the crosspiece is metal, so a blade being deflected along the shaft of the lightsaber would cut through it no problem.

Other than that little gimmick, though, it's looking good.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Alex Hormann on November 28, 2014, 09:20:06 PM
Not sure how all of that ended up as a quote :-\
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: JonRock411 on November 29, 2014, 07:37:14 AM
I find it interesting that everyone thinks lightsaber person is a he.  Looks more feminine to me.  Gwendoline Christie's character perhaps

And yeah, the light saber is impractical as hell.  Still looks cool though, which is the important thing with Star Wars
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Alex Hormann on November 30, 2014, 07:03:04 PM
My brother came up with this idea of why the lightsaber is key to the plot:

'When all seems hopeless the sith leans in for the killing blow and ignites his own face. fade to black. Cue ewok song'

A part of me hopes he is right.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: DMHamilton on December 01, 2014, 01:31:02 AM
Every time I hear that music the hair goes up on the back of my back and I'm back to being a little kid and watching A New Hope (it was still called Star Wars then) for the first time again.

Yeah, tingle down the spine time when the music came on for me too. Really looking forward to seeing what they do with this.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ScarletBea on December 01, 2014, 01:39:20 PM
Benedict Cumberbatch has now confirmed it's not him voicing the trailer, he's not on the film.
I couldn't really hear his voice, it's quite distinctive and recognisable, so not sure why so many people swore it was him...
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Phil Norris on December 02, 2014, 09:20:17 PM
Benedict Cumberbatch has now confirmed it's not him voicing the trailer, he's not on the film.
I couldn't really hear his voice, it's quite distinctive and recognisable, so not sure why so many people swore it was him...

Its been confirmed the voice is the king of mo-cap himself, Andy Serkis.

I liked the trailer, enough new and a nostalgic dollop of old. I think the guy with the light saber (or should it now be called a light broadword?) is a guy. Pretty the trailer is showing us the new three main characters.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Doctor_Chill on December 02, 2014, 09:58:30 PM
(http://r2-store.distractify.netdna-cdn.com/postimage/201411/11/e58d05a13e3a728fb91d06c7a5faa77c_650x.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Jmack on December 07, 2014, 05:32:28 PM
 I had to call my wife in to watch the teaser the moment it appeared in my facebook feed.  While I agree with one commenter in another place on this site that there's a risk of pure action and special effects with not enough heart, can I say that hope springs eternal?

I was 15 in 1977 and spent much of the summer at the theater.  My friend Lyle and I went one Saturday morning and watched every showing of Star Wars For the price of one.  We had to hide out between showings.  Don't think we could get away with that these days. 

The total count was 16 times before it left the theaters. I liked to tell my kids it was over 20, but I lied.   :P

Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ScarletBea on April 17, 2015, 12:51:00 PM
No mention of the new trailer? :D

Here you go!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngElkyQ6Rhs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngElkyQ6Rhs)

(I'm showing my age, I care more about what Solo's doing than the youngsters ;D)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on April 17, 2015, 12:57:58 PM
Really excited. It's far too long before it comes out.  >:(
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ScarletBea on April 17, 2015, 01:02:33 PM
Yes, it's bad enough when people start talking a long time before the actual event, but official trailers and all a full 8 months before the release date, is awful!!!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on April 17, 2015, 01:08:57 PM
Yeah it sucks. Especially once the spoilers start to appear. I don't really mind being spoilered, but it makes the wait even harder.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Jmack on April 17, 2015, 01:21:43 PM
Thank you for posting the trailer!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I'm trying to not know that much about this, but seeing Han at the end just made me say: "Holy F@ck!"
Please please please have a really good script, not just great special effects and loud action.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Saraband on April 17, 2015, 01:35:59 PM
No mention of the new trailer? :D

Here you go!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngElkyQ6Rhs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngElkyQ6Rhs)

(I'm showing my age, I care more about what Solo's doing than the youngsters ;D)

The ending with Solo and Chewbacca...  ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nighteyes on April 17, 2015, 05:02:48 PM
I was most excited about Jurassic World this year. Now consider me most excited about Star Wars. What I love about the trailer is that it is so evocative of the original trilogy not the over CGI bloated prequels.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Doctor_Chill on April 18, 2015, 12:43:44 AM
Between this and the new James Bond, I feel November and December are gonna be some great months! ;D
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on April 18, 2015, 03:10:57 AM
Amy Mebberson's Pocket Princesses comic strip references this, this week.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Jmack on December 06, 2015, 03:36:34 AM
Good article in Time magazine this week quotes from actors, how JJAbrams is trying to recreate the feel of the original trilogy. Kept having to skips spoilery stuff. But the end paragraphs ar pretty good, talking about the hope fans have for this movie.

I don't know how I'm going to avoid hearing too much before I see it Dec 27.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 06, 2015, 03:38:02 AM
Good article in Time magazine this week quotes from actors, how JJAbrams is trying to recreate the feel of the original trilogy. Kept having to skips spoilery stuff. But the end paragraphs ar pretty good, talking about the hope fans have for this movie.

I don't know how I'm going to avoid hearing too much before I see it Dec 27.
I see no link.  >:(

We're watching it on the day it comes out. SO EXCITED!  :o
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Jmack on December 06, 2015, 03:41:47 AM
Tried to find a link, but subscribers only. May try to cheat a bit tomorrow.

And listen up, everyone. Even your reaction to the movie (meh or yeah) will be spoilery for me. I may just have to stay off the forum from 12/18 to 12/27.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 06, 2015, 03:49:28 AM
Tried to find a link, but subscribers only. May try to cheat a bit tomorrow.

And listen up, everyone. Even your reaction to the movie (meh or yeah) will be spoilery for me. I may just have to stay off the forum from 12/18 to 12/27.
Please do!  ;D

Unacceptable. Just avoid this thread - I'm sure we can all make sure we don't mention them whatsoever outside here.  ;)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ScarletBea on December 06, 2015, 10:42:39 AM
I may just have to stay off the forum from 12/18 to 12/27.
Noooooooo
(I know I won't be around much, I'll be in Portugal, but still...)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nighteyes on December 06, 2015, 12:30:27 PM
I may just have to stay off the forum from 12/18 to 12/27.
Noooooooo
(I know I won't be around much, I'll be in Portugal, but still...)

What is this mysterious 18th and 27th month of the year?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Jmack on December 06, 2015, 12:43:41 PM
I may just have to stay off the forum from 12/18 to 12/27.
Noooooooo
(I know I won't be around much, I'll be in Portugal, but still...)

What is this mysterious 18th and 27th month of the year?

It's in Fahrenheit date format.  :P ;D
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ScarletBea on December 06, 2015, 02:01:56 PM
I may just have to stay off the forum from 12/18 to 12/27.
Noooooooo
(I know I won't be around much, I'll be in Portugal, but still...)

What is this mysterious 18th and 27th month of the year?
hehe at least these dates can be easily identified. Try to decipher 06/08 ::)
At work, since I deal with people all over the world, I stopped writing dates with just numbers. It's '5 Dec', or 'please reply by 11 Jan' and so on, to avoid confusion.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on December 06, 2015, 03:13:12 PM
Tried to find a link, but subscribers only. May try to cheat a bit tomorrow.

And listen up, everyone. Even your reaction to the movie (meh or yeah) will be spoilery for me. I may just have to stay off the forum from 12/18 to 12/27.
Please do!  ;D

Unacceptable. Just avoid this thread - I'm sure we can all make sure we don't mention them whatsoever outside here.  ;)

oh, but you're here until then, right?

wouldn't it be terrible if someone who has been working with episode 7 content across two different gaming platforms since late 2014 said something spoilery on the 17th?

man, i sure hope that doesn't happen...
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 06, 2015, 03:33:24 PM
Tried to find a link, but subscribers only. May try to cheat a bit tomorrow.

And listen up, everyone. Even your reaction to the movie (meh or yeah) will be spoilery for me. I may just have to stay off the forum from 12/18 to 12/27.
Please do!  ;D

Unacceptable. Just avoid this thread - I'm sure we can all make sure we don't mention them whatsoever outside here.  ;)

oh, but you're here until then, right?

wouldn't it be terrible if someone who has been working with episode 7 content across two different gaming platforms since late 2014 said something spoilery on the 17th?

man, i sure hope that doesn't happen...
You're working on Star Wars stuff?  >:(
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Jmack on December 06, 2015, 03:43:00 PM
Tried to find a link, but subscribers only. May try to cheat a bit tomorrow.

And listen up, everyone. Even your reaction to the movie (meh or yeah) will be spoilery for me. I may just have to stay off the forum from 12/18 to 12/27.
Please do!  ;D

Unacceptable. Just avoid this thread - I'm sure we can all make sure we don't mention them whatsoever outside here.  ;)

oh, but you're here until then, right?

wouldn't it be terrible if someone who has been working with episode 7 content across two different gaming platforms since late 2014 said something spoilery on the 17th?

man, i sure hope that doesn't happen...

It would be criminal.  >:(
I just call it as I see it  ;)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on December 06, 2015, 03:59:41 PM
You're working on Star Wars stuff?  >:(

really?  how did you not know that?  hrm.  i apparently need to be louder on what i'm currently working on at the office.

yeah, right now i'm splitting time between avengers and star wars.

on this thing:
http://nerdreactor.com/2015/06/04/disney-introduces-playmation/

it's like a video game, but with audio instead of video and with toys instead of controllers.  it is ridiculously, outrageously cool.

[three or four tries at elaborating, but ultimately deciding to delete the text -- dammit!]



It would be criminal.  >:(
I just call it as I see it  ;)

criminal is right.  not only would i be fired, i'm pretty sure i'd be sued out of existence too.  you should SEE some of the ridiculous security measures being taken.  it's mind-boggling.  if i suddenly disappear from the forums, you'll know why.

it's just SO CLOSE!!!

p.s.  it really is pretty fun tho to have meetings on your calendar that say things like "Star Wars Leads cross-team Sprint collaboration and alignment".  that'd be an eye-rollingly awful name for a meeting if it didn't have the words "star wars" at the front.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 06, 2015, 04:18:59 PM
You're working on Star Wars stuff?  >:(

really?  how did you not know that?  hrm.  i apparently need to be louder on what i'm currently working on at the office.

yeah, right now i'm splitting time between avengers and star wars.

on this thing:
http://nerdreactor.com/2015/06/04/disney-introduces-playmation/ (http://nerdreactor.com/2015/06/04/disney-introduces-playmation/)

it's like a video game, but with audio instead of video and with toys instead of controllers.  it is ridiculously, outrageously cool.

[three or four tries at elaborating, but ultimately deciding to delete the text -- dammit!]
Yup, don't think I've ever seen you mention it, wondered a few times!

And yah, that's just seriously unfair. Just working at Disney would be awesome, but Star Wars as well?! I might just have to hate you.  :P

Sounds pretty cool, though I have no idea how that could work!  :D
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on December 06, 2015, 04:37:27 PM
Sounds pretty cool, though I have no idea how that could work!  :D

this is probably the most descriptive, yet still succinct video i've seen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KowTTW4LIg


now, imagine that, but about 10x cooler from a "how you play" perspective, and wrapped in star wars.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 06, 2015, 04:48:34 PM
Sounds pretty cool, though I have no idea how that could work!  :D

this is probably the most descriptive, yet still succinct video i've seen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KowTTW4LIg


now, imagine that, but about 10x cooler from a "how you play" perspective, and wrapped in star wars.
Still don't get it, though I am very sleepy...  :P I'll have to take another look tomorrow!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on December 09, 2015, 04:50:47 AM
Sounds pretty cool, though I have no idea how that could work!  :D

this is probably the most descriptive, yet still succinct video i've seen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KowTTW4LIg


now, imagine that, but about 10x cooler from a "how you play" perspective, and wrapped in star wars.

1) Where was this when I was a kid?
2) My imagination worked well enough I guess.
3) My daughter and any future kids better be into this stuff so I can play with them by myself.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Overlord on December 16, 2015, 10:56:27 AM
Star Wars: The Force Awakens is picking up solid 4* and 5* reviews from the UK's mainstream papers: 'What a Christmas present', it's 'brimming with energy' & 'will delight fans' just some of the headline praise. Nice snippet here from The Radio Times:

But no film could live up to the infinite and vague possibilities of our imaginations – and instead of that perfect, impossible movie we’ve been given something else. A film that, while following similar plot beats to older movies, does something original. A film that tells a new story through a familiar lens, taking us on a compelling journey with unknown characters through an unfamiliar universe. A slightly over-dense romp through a galaxy chock-full of wonders that suffers from the odd bit of clunky dialogue and rushed plotting, but makes it up through charm, imagination and fantastic action sequences.

In other words, against the odds we’ve ended up with the first authentic Star Wars film since 1983.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 16, 2015, 11:16:04 AM
Star Wars: The Force Awakens is picking up solid 4* and 5* reviews from the UK's mainstream papers: 'What a Christmas present', it's 'brimming with energy' & 'will delight fans' just some of the headline praise. Nice snippet here from The Radio Times:

But no film could live up to the infinite and vague possibilities of our imaginations – and instead of that perfect, impossible movie we’ve been given something else. A film that, while following similar plot beats to older movies, does something original. A film that tells a new story through a familiar lens, taking us on a compelling journey with unknown characters through an unfamiliar universe. A slightly over-dense romp through a galaxy chock-full of wonders that suffers from the odd bit of clunky dialogue and rushed plotting, but makes it up through charm, imagination and fantastic action sequences.

In other words, against the odds we’ve ended up with the first authentic Star Wars film since 1983.
Sounds promising so far. Does that mean you've seen it already? We're going in roughly 7 hours, can't wait!  ;D
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 16, 2015, 11:42:12 AM
Damn you'll get there before me! Seeing it in roughly 16h, and will be happy to post my own review here after yours Raptori.  8)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 16, 2015, 04:19:54 PM
Why is time so slow?

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/bouncy.gif)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: DireWolfSnow on December 16, 2015, 05:10:28 PM
I still have 32 hours and 51 minutes to go. Not that I'm counting time or anything...  ::)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on December 16, 2015, 06:53:11 PM
just sayin'.

with 148 reviews in, it's got a critic's rating of 97% on rotten tomatoes.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_episode_vii_the_force_awakens/

you know.  not to drive up anyone's excitement or anything.


also, how has no one posted this massive spoiler yet?
(http://i.imgur.com/7xc3hat.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ScarletBea on December 16, 2015, 07:01:19 PM
also, how has no one posted this massive spoiler yet?
(http://i.imgur.com/7xc3hat.jpg)
I don't know if it's massive, I have no element of comparison.
Someone needs to post another one, and then I'll tell you if that one's massive
 ;D
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on December 16, 2015, 08:40:53 PM
I've been trying so hard to avoid any Star Wars talk this week so I:

A) Don't get accidentally spoiled
B) Don't see lots of positive reviews and get hyped even more so that reality would have an impossible time meeting expectations.
C) Or if the reviews are negative I don't go in already prejudiced against the movie.

And yet I'm still reading every article I can that doesn't look like a review.  Only 28 more hours until I get to see it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 16, 2015, 09:20:43 PM
(http://boincstats.com/image/emoticon/happy.gif)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 17, 2015, 03:30:12 AM
Movie session begins in 30min. I just had to squirt around a crowd of teenagers because they were swinging plastic light sabers and yelling "Oh oh, man it was so good! It was so good!!"

I ran before I could hear any potential spoilers.
I can't wait anywhere else, since it's around 40°c and even my lightest dress feels like a woolen jersey.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 17, 2015, 07:12:00 AM
okay, here is my 100% spoiler free review of the movie :

It's GREAT!

As a standalone movie, taken individually, it is very good. The action is intense and superb, the acting is perfect, the plot is... alright. It has of course a couple of moments when the script sorts of bends itself to accommodate the action, but it's nothing that you couldn't justify if you really wanted to, so I reckon most people will excuse that sort of quirks. It never goes close to be a plot-hole.

In the serie... It's so close to the spirit of the ep. IV, V and VI that one can pretend the first three never happened!
It embraces the 70's style to some lovely details.
And more importantly it is FULL of easter eggs. Verbal references or objects, that any fan will immediately pick up and smile to.

What I really loved in this film was the insight given to the empire/first order staff. Storm troopers are human, and that movies incarnates the enemy enough to make them realistic, plausible. Factions in a war meshed with sides of the force, not the super villains against the goodies. Of course there are some serious baddies but...
Gotta say I am very impressed by our new villain, Kylo Ren. His acting was very good. Way more subtle than I expected from anyone who'd pertain to such a cliched thing as "the dark side".

The two young leads played very well. I'd never seen John Boyega before, but I expect to see a lot of him in the future, besides the next 2 star wars, since his acting was spot on. Same as Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley. I'm also glad they took such new stars, and not anyone who carries a "face", or a character name. Like seeing Harrison Ford and going "hah! They have Han Solo/Indianna Jones in this movie!"

It's a funny action movie full of tense moment, beautiful effects, amazing chases, and I even teared up a couple of times...
But man they sure are ridding the franchise to battle. A lot of scene will appear familiar enough for you to sort of guess what is coming about. A lot of things will be borderline cliche.. But in a refreshing way, for me. A familiar way.

The only thing that makes me aggravated really, and while it's not really spoilery, some might want to truly know nothing...
Is that the end is ONE HELL of a cliff hanger, and knowing we'll get to wait god knows how long for episode 8 makes me jittery! They have some serious balls.

GO SEE IT ASAP.

You will NOT like getting spoilered. It's totally worth our expectations, it's a resurrection for the franchise, it's superbly shot, it made all the adults around me giddy throughout the movie... I'd rate that a good 4/5, or 4,5/5.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 17, 2015, 03:10:42 PM
+1 for that review. Really enjoyed it, we'll probably go see it again soon (we have cinema vouchers and there isn't anything else on that looks anywhere near as good). Just go in expecting to watch a more up-to-date Star Wars film and you won't be disappointed. Have to say I love the cinematography - the film really felt alive, much more so than the original trilogy, but still managed to feel like Star Wars.

Also, thumbs up for BB-8!   ;D

Boyega was pretty decent in Attack the Block too, which is a fairly ridiculous alien invasion comedy. Worth a watch if you want something mindless and a bit of fun!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Doctor_Chill on December 17, 2015, 04:29:48 PM
Seeing as I probably won't see it for another week or so, here begins my Sabbatical from social media, I guess. ;)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ClintACK on December 17, 2015, 08:42:28 PM
Argh.  Tickets to see it in all its 3D glory... on January 2nd. 

(http://www.en.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/facepalm.gif)

What was I thinking?

Must.  Stay.  Spoiler.  Free.

(It'll never happen.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 17, 2015, 09:42:48 PM
(http://liberalforum.net/images/smilies/blink.gif)

How on earth could you possibly wait that long?!

Barely anyone is going to get the joke I made in that post for months at this rate...
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 17, 2015, 11:15:51 PM
(http://liberalforum.net/images/smilies/blink.gif)

How on earth could you possibly wait that long?!

Barely anyone is going to get the joke I made in that post for months at this rate...

It was a great scene. I really appreciated the humour in this movie. Nothing awkward like in I, II and III.

The funny thing is that people guessed ahead of time a lot of true things, so I was pre-spoiled. I had dismissed people saying stuff like "Oh, this will surely happen, and X wouldn't play in if this wouldn't happen and such" and I'd think "meh, surely not.." but sometimes these people were right! And in the cinema I'd be all... "Oh. Fancy that..."
And now... Gee, @ClintACK (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=40381) keep away from youtube comment sections. They're gorged with spoilers.

But the movie was also mint in 2D, so you could go see it now as well, and still get to your 3D session.  :P
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: tebakutis on December 18, 2015, 12:33:25 AM
I am henceforth ignoring this thread for two weeks (I won't see The Force Awakens until after Christmas). Enjoy it, folks, and please think of those of us who haven't seen it when you gush or rant. :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 18, 2015, 02:08:32 AM
I am henceforth ignoring this thread for two weeks (I won't see The Force Awakens until after Christmas). Enjoy it, folks, and please think of those of us who haven't seen it when you gush or rant. :)

Well, that's why I've kept my review spoiler free, and I guess anyone who isn't either dumb or a jackass will keep spoilers at bay until well into Jan...

Maybe by the end of the month we could have a spoiler thread. It's a bit early still though.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on December 18, 2015, 03:38:21 AM
Well just got back from seeing it. My. Gawd.

This was me the whole time:
(https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Surprised-Koala.jpg)

I loved it. Star Wars at its finest! Okay, thats all I can say without saying things I shouldn't.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: DireWolfSnow on December 18, 2015, 06:26:17 AM
Wow, just wow. My wife and I just got back from seeing it.

If you love the original trilogy, I highly recommend this one. So many great moments and Easter eggs. The new characters are really well written and do a great job of carrying the movie. Lots of great action scenes and a very interesting story.

In short, this was my face throughout pretty much the entire movie:

(http://imgur.com/UP5r4jB.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: CameronJohnston on December 18, 2015, 08:59:23 AM
It's proper Star Wars! :D
I thought it was good, but came away pretty disappointed with parts of the plot, for reasons I can't really discuss without spoilers. There is a line between nostalgia/homage and...*something*...and I think this film crossed that line. Really looking forward to the second one though, which I have no doubt will be even better.

I really enjoyed the storm troopers and found John Boyega and Domhnall Gleeson especially good.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 18, 2015, 12:06:23 PM
I thought it was good, but came away pretty disappointed with parts of the plot, for reasons I can't really discuss without spoilers. There is a line between nostalgia/homage and...*something*...and I think this film crossed that line.
Jurassic World does come to mind, though I felt FA had more in the way of interesting characters and twists.  :P
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on December 18, 2015, 01:03:01 PM
Saw it last night and thought that it was very good but not quite great.  It definitely felt like a Star Wars film as opposed to the prequels.  There was a lot of fan servicing that came close to crossing the line of being too much but in the end I think it turned out fine.

Spoiler discussion below:

Fan service #1 - Hiding information in a droid.  Should I have known who that old man was at the beginning with Poe?

Finn and Poe were great together and I wish we had more of them interacting in this movie (and hopefully wil in the next one with Rey elsewhere for now). 

Speaking of Poe, I'm not sure how he got off Jaaku and back with the Resistance so quickly.  He definitely didn't seem to look for BB8 again.

I think Rey is awesome but it felt like to me that she became a little too strong too fast (Luke's growth this his powers was more gradual).  It could be an interesting mix with Rey maybe having a little dark deep down inside (when Kylo had her he stated that she wanted to kill him) and Kylo who has some good in him.

Speaking of Kylo, I really wonder what set him off.  Surely he would have been told the story of Anakin/Vader but yet he chose to go the Vader route?  And he said he still has the light inside of him so what pushed him to the Dark Side?  It looks like the speculation on his parentage was correct (Skywalker & Solo) but I liked the fan servicing with his real name being Ben/

Anyone else find it funny that when everyone gets back to base after blowing up the FO base that Chewy just walks right by Leia without commiserating with her over Han?  And that she immediately went over and hugged Rey even though they have never met (as far as we know anyways?)

Seriously, how many Death Star type things are we going to have?  It doesn't seem to be economically viable to keep building them.

Any thoughts on Rey's parentage?  I'm hoping they're not going to go down the route of Han & Leia's daughter but it seems like they cut the conversation between H&L right before they would discuss her.  Would Luke have had a kid maybe? 
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on December 18, 2015, 02:50:13 PM
t-minus 3 1/2 hours!

our whole office is taking the day to go see it.  and then, i can cruise the internet without being terrified i might accidentally see something.

... well, no more terrified than any other day.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: OhTheSqualor on December 18, 2015, 04:14:58 PM
Just wanted to say that I thought it was awesome.

I'll echo earlier comments that there was a degree of fan servicing, but it didn't bother me so much.  That could be because Star Wars pretty much was my childhood.  I also thought the fan servicing was redeemed by the fact that the original cast members had real roles to play and weren't just there to make us feel warm and fuzzy.

The new characters are great.  I'm kind of in love with Rae.  She was amazing.

Anyway, to sum it up: if you've been nervous about the new Star Wars movie, you can relax.  This is not some prequel trilogy garbage.  It was really good.

Chris
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on December 18, 2015, 11:02:26 PM
Saw it yesterday. It was great! There are some plot issues, but nothing that should spoil the enjoyment of sitting back and watching a really fun action movie. I felt it was the best thing the franchise has done since Empire. It was wonderful to see a new chapter in the continuity without knowing how it turns out. In hindsight I would have preferred that the prequels never be made (not just because they were pretty terrible films), but because we all knew how it was going to end up, and in many ways it was more fun to imagine that rather than have it spelled out to us. In short loved it and will be going again. I think we'll probably go Gold Class for Lejay17's birthday in early Jan. Performances all round are very good and the show may have just uncovered a new star on John Boyega.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on December 19, 2015, 12:21:24 AM
so.  freakin'.  good.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: OhTheSqualor on December 19, 2015, 12:42:13 AM
Saw it yesterday. It was great! There are some plot issues, but nothing that should spoil the enjoyment of sitting back and watching a really fun action movie. I felt it was the best thing the franchise has done since Empire. It was wonderful to see a new chapter in the continuity without knowing how it turns out. In hindsight I would have preferred that the prequels never be made (not just because they were pretty terrible films), but because we all knew how it was going to end up, and in many ways it was more fun to imagine that rather than have it spelled out to us. In short loved it and will be going again. I think we'll probably go Gold Class for Lejay17's birthday in early Jan. Performances all round are very good and the show may have just uncovered a new star on John Boyega.

I too would prefer to live in a world where the prequels don't exist.  My girlfriend does.  She has never seen them.  I am jealous.
For me it's mostly because they were terrible. ;-)

Chris
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 19, 2015, 12:50:13 AM
In a way it's good they did the prequels. Imagine! It means that otherwise he'd have done episodes 7, 8 and 9! Ruined the continuity!
Now we can simply forget 1, 2 and 3 happened, and consider that Star Wars is the matter of episode 4 to 9. If 8 and 9 are good as well... I mean, 8 isn't directed by JJ Abrahms, so... But we'll see. I think the new director will be ok.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: OhTheSqualor on December 19, 2015, 06:52:07 PM
In a way it's good they did the prequels. Imagine! It means that otherwise he'd have done episodes 7, 8 and 9! Ruined the continuity!
Now we can simply forget 1, 2 and 3 happened, and consider that Star Wars is the matter of episode 4 to 9. If 8 and 9 are good as well... I mean, 8 isn't directed by JJ Abrahms, so... But we'll see. I think the new director will be ok.

Lol!  I was just talking to my girlfriend about that the other day.  Thank god that if they had to ruin some part of the Star Wars story, they ruined the defined part.  The part that left little wiggle room for inventive story telling, because the broad story arc was already known.
The future of Star Wars belongs solely to the future, and thus far they've done a good job with it.  I too am nervous that there will be a new director for 8, but I think Disney knows what it has on its hands... and how important it is to get it right.

Chris
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ArcaneArtsVelho on December 20, 2015, 05:08:14 PM
Just saw it (and I almost NEVER go to see movies in a theatre). Seeing it in 3D was my biggest (/only) disappointment.

But yeah, it was good. Not excellent, but definitely good. I'll stick to the positive (non-spoilery) things:
-somehow it felt like New Hope redone, but more modern and, in some ways, better
-good acting; even the old-timers did a decent job
-Han and Chewie duo still worked very well
-BB-8 was not irritating at all; it was even funny at times (thumbs up like Raptori said)
-Rey was a total bad-ass! (Too much of a bad-ass?)
-the villain was very human (loved how he went 'apeshit', smashing stuff with his lightsaber  ;D )
-can't remember anything else at the moment  ::)

TL;DR
Solid 10/10 if by that you mean 3,5 or 4/5.  ??? ;D
You will hate it because the sequel will be so far, far away.  ;)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 20, 2015, 10:16:29 PM
Just bought a second ticket to see it at 1pm this arvo...  :-[
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 20, 2015, 11:59:46 PM
Just bought a second ticket to see it at 1pm this arvo...  :-[
We had tickets reserved to see it again tonight, but since we felt too tired after a friend came to visit we're going tomorrow instead. If anything, I'm even more excited to watch it this time around.  :P
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Yora on December 21, 2015, 11:58:10 AM
So my mom already got us tickets last week to see the movie on friday when my brother and I are in town. Didn't plan to, but since apparently most people consider it better than Episode 3, that's fine with me.

But I hope we get to see it on the big screen. It used to be the main stage of an old theatre house with 380 seats in front of a 762 inch screen. (18mx7m)  8)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on December 21, 2015, 01:15:12 PM
Just bought a second ticket to see it at 1pm this arvo...  :-[
We had tickets reserved to see it again tonight, but since we felt too tired after a friend came to visit we're going tomorrow instead. If anything, I'm even more excited to watch it this time around.  :P

I'm off work next week so I'm planning on taking a me day and going to watch it again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on December 21, 2015, 02:35:07 PM
Just bought a second ticket to see it at 1pm this arvo...  :-[
We had tickets reserved to see it again tonight, but since we felt too tired after a friend came to visit we're going tomorrow instead. If anything, I'm even more excited to watch it this time around.  :P

I'm off work next week so I'm planning on taking a me day and going to watch it again.

Ditto. Well I am not off work all week, but one day. That's all I need. I think i'll see it in 3D this time.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on December 21, 2015, 08:34:07 PM
So my mom already got us tickets last week to see the movie on friday when my brother and I are in town. Didn't plan to, but since apparently most people consider it better than Episode 3, that's fine with me.

But I hope we get to see it on the big screen. It used to be the main stage of an old theatre house with 380 seats in front of a 762 inch screen. (18mx7m)  8)
It kicks the backside of Episodes 1, 2 & 3. I personally think it's better than 6, on a par with 5 (I'm not one of these Empire is the best film ever people) and not as good as 4, but 4 will forever and always be one of my favourite films, for all that I can see it has flaws these days. I still love that they left the shot of the stormtrooper banging his head on a lowish door frame as he enters a room in.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Yora on December 21, 2015, 11:05:41 PM
I've met a lot of Star Wars fans who admit they thought Return of the Jedi was the best movie by far when they were 12, but now look very differently at it seeing it again in their 20s. Seems that attempts to make it more kid friendly actually worked, but that comes at the cost of the movies long term legacy.

I don't expect to love the new movie as much as I love 4 and 5, but I wouldn't rule out that I might compare it favorably to 6.
I think a big difference now is that I have really no interest at all in the new continuity. I still love the early Expanded Universe that we had in the 90s and now I am commited to stick to that. What I am expecting to see is a Star Wars style movie, but not a continuation of my Star Wars.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nighteyes on December 21, 2015, 11:39:07 PM
Saw it. The first 40 mins or so are outstanding. Then it is still fun, but so many questions left unanswered. And quite a few characters are built up and then disappear.  Also the various call backs to previous films got a bit tiring and made some events easy to see coming. (Essentially it is the same story as the original Star Wars.)  Much much better than the prequels but people are being a bit over enthusiastic if they are rating it above the original trilogy. (Even Return of the Jedi which I still think is a great film.)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 22, 2015, 12:02:27 AM
Saw it. The first 40 mins or so are outstanding. Then it is still fun, but so many questions left unanswered. And quite a few characters are built up and then disappear.  Also the various call backs to previous films got a bit tiring and made some events easy to see coming. (Essentially it is the same story as the original Star Wars.)  Much much better than the prequels but people are being a bit over enthusiastic if they are rating it above the original trilogy. (Even Return of the Jedi which I still think is a great film.)
To be honest, the original trilogy is not that good. I love it in spite of its flaws, but those flaws have always been very noticeable for me. The new film managed to evoke the same feelings that made me love the originals, but it doesn't suffer from their flaws. That's why I rate it higher: it has the same strengths but fewer weaknesses.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 22, 2015, 01:26:25 AM
Saw it. The first 40 mins or so are outstanding. Then it is still fun, but so many questions left unanswered. And quite a few characters are built up and then disappear.  Also the various call backs to previous films got a bit tiring and made some events easy to see coming. (Essentially it is the same story as the original Star Wars.)  Much much better than the prequels but people are being a bit over enthusiastic if they are rating it above the original trilogy. (Even Return of the Jedi which I still think is a great film.)
To be honest, the original trilogy is not that good. I love it in spite of its flaws, but those flaws have always been very noticeable for me. The new film managed to evoke the same feelings that made me love the originals, but it doesn't suffer from their flaws. That's why I rate it higher: it has the same strengths but fewer weaknesses.

Got to agree. The originals of course are amazing, and I loved them again this year as I saw them, but they're different. They have their flaws along with their epic moments. But the new one is funny in a good, successful way. Not a Jar jar Binks way. Not an ewok way... An actual, human character error way.

I mean...
How great, how human is Finn, when he goes all up and mighty on Phasma, getting carried away, "I run the show now!!" or a bit later, when Han tries to subtly point behind him but Finn just doesn't pick up and in the tension of the moment looses his cool a little...
These are character driven bits of fun, like BB8's thumb up, Poe's good humour, Chewie's sarcasm, that we didn't get in any of the previous Star Wars. I mean, we love them both, but C3PO and Yoda were the two main comic relief in the original, and there hardly was any rib cracking line from them.
There also is good situational humour, like the Stormtrooper going "Aaaaand I'll drop my weapon", or the two troopers coming in the corridor when Ren loses his temper, recognize the tantrum ahead and just turn around thinking, nope, fuck this, we're out of here.
It's great to see such things from the baddies' side because it makes them human, and in doing so, it makes this movie more mature, in a way, than even the originals.
They were great, and serious, but they more deeply cliched.

Even this new one has depth. Only look at the acting of bloody Ren! We never had a villain so conflicted or complex. In ep VI, you knew Vader was conflicted because Luke kept telling you so. But until he finally acts, the bets were open as to whether or not that was the case...
And Ren is not a dark side one sided evil boy. He's a struggling, deep grey character. See the scene in the snow, during the battle, how he keeps punching his side to feel the pain from Chewie's blaster, to keep anger and pain here, what anchors him in the dark side... This was amazing.
One of the deepest shot that really startled me in its maturity, personally, is early on, when Rey has that blank moment, as she looks up and sees this older woman doing the same work she does. There is no text, nothing, just her wondering gaze, and you just know, that in that moment she's seeing herself, a slave forever, in old age doing the same job again, till she dies. This one scene puts a real weight to every time after that when she says she needs to go back. How traumatized and wounded she is, to be willing to return to a place she left stealing a ship, and where she's already seen the face of what she might become.

I was quite surprised by JJ's work. It probably comes from the script writers, but overall I found this film more mature than the Star Treks.

What really bugs me the most is
how that map has a red road on it, that goes a long way across the galaxy, and Rey ends up doing that journey in 2min, apparently never even needing a nap.
They really rushed that ending, and that bothered me.
That, and the way Chewie never reaches for Leia, just walked past her.

The way a lot of characters got waved in your face and disappear is perfectly excusable, imo, since not only will we see most of them in the next episode, but it also happens all the time in movies, and people usually don't get that aggravated by it.
Since it's Star Wars, it seems to me that everyone wanted 10h exposure on every single character, and fullfilling answers to every questions. But that's just not how it rolls!

Saw it again yesterday before my day went to hell, and loved it even more. I just love the opening shot! And the desert views... there are som magnificent still shots in this movie, the photography is very beautifully done.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 22, 2015, 04:45:38 PM
Force Awakens tickets: check.

New Star Wars t-shirt (http://www.redbubble.com/people/griffinthemad/works/14617642-rebel-and-restore-the-republic?p=t-shirt&): check.

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/images.hitfix.com/assets/9625/balldroid.gif)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on December 22, 2015, 06:14:56 PM
 8) I just got tickets for viewing #2 tomorrow.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on December 22, 2015, 06:19:57 PM
I've met a lot of Star Wars fans who admit they thought Return of the Jedi was the best movie by far when they were 12, but now look very differently at it seeing it again in their 20s. Seems that attempts to make it more kid friendly actually worked, but that comes at the cost of the movies long term legacy.

I don't expect to love the new movie as much as I love 4 and 5, but I wouldn't rule out that I might compare it favorably to 6.
I think a big difference now is that I have really no interest at all in the new continuity. I still love the early Expanded Universe that we had in the 90s and now I am commited to stick to that. What I am expecting to see is a Star Wars style movie, but not a continuation of my Star Wars.

I remain one of the Return of the Jedi faithful. I just love that movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Yora on December 22, 2015, 06:40:56 PM
What makes the film just feel not quite right is mostly the kid friendliness it got. The Rancor and Sarlac fights are great, as are the parts on the Death Star and the big space battle. But all the cute and funny stuff is too disruptive for my taste. I think it could have been a lot greater than it is, which I find frustrating.

A while back I saw someone editing together only the space battle scenes and removing all the stuff on the Death Star and on the planet, and it's really a very impressive space battle. Jumping in and out between three different fights was a clever idea to build tension, but somehow it also hurt the greatness that each of the individual parts have.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 22, 2015, 08:38:31 PM
8) I just got tickets for viewing #2 tomorrow.
2D or 3D? Just got back from watching it in 2D, think it's marginally better than the 3D. And yeah, it's even better the second time round, probably thanks to no longer being worried that it'd suck.  :P
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on December 23, 2015, 12:37:43 AM
What makes the film just feel not quite right is mostly the kid friendliness it got. The Rancor and Sarlac fights are great, as are the parts on the Death Star and the big space battle. But all the cute and funny stuff is too disruptive for my taste. I think it could have been a lot greater than it is, which I find frustrating.

A while back I saw someone editing together only the space battle scenes and removing all the stuff on the Death Star and on the planet, and it's really a very impressive space battle. Jumping in and out between three different fights was a clever idea to build tension, but somehow it also hurt the greatness that each of the individual parts have.

Yeah I see it, but it doesn't bother me as much. That's all part of its charm.

8) I just got tickets for viewing #2 tomorrow.
2D or 3D? Just got back from watching it in 2D, think it's marginally better than the 3D. And yeah, it's even better the second time round, probably thanks to no longer being worried that it'd suck.  :P

Saw 2D the first time. Going 3D this round.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 23, 2015, 12:43:44 AM
8) I just got tickets for viewing #2 tomorrow.
2D or 3D? Just got back from watching it in 2D, think it's marginally better than the 3D. And yeah, it's even better the second time round, probably thanks to no longer being worried that it'd suck.  :P

Saw 2D the first time. Going 3D this round.
Cool, would be interesting to hear if you notice any difference!  :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: JRTroughton on December 23, 2015, 09:38:52 AM
I'm not a fan of Star Wars, so going to see this was always going to be interesting.

I thought it was the best of the bunch. I haven't seen any of the other films in a loooong time, but this one struck a lot of the right notes. The first 45 minutes in particular were excellent. Loved the Nausicaa vibes during Rey's introduction and I much preferred her as a hero to Luke Skywalker. Kylo was good.

Yeah. Recommended.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nighteyes on December 23, 2015, 12:53:04 PM
Seen it in 2D and 3D now.

Definitely a fun film.  A great film no though, and if it was just a non Star Wars standalone film, it would not be getting such rave reviews.  But I did smile all the way through,  and agreed with the comments about the laughs in it. I loved the scene when
the Stormtroopers hear Renn throwing a tantrum and just head the opposite way.


I also felt it is a brilliant starting point for a new expanded universe.  Comic book writers and pulp sci fi writers are probably emailing in proposition to Lucasfilms as we speak. For example: 
Max Von Sydow's character needs a back story, why is he trusted ally? Why is hiding out on Jakku? 

Things I was disappointed in though. 
Maz seemed a big deal but then she disappeared.  You have Iko Uwais and Mad Dog from the Raid, but instead of them doing awesome martial arts, they just get chased by tentacled beasties.  Admiral Ackbar never says it is a trap. And WTF was the deal with R2D2 suddenly snapping out of low battery mode?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 23, 2015, 03:05:00 PM
I don't get what's wrong with Maz disappearing. Yoda appears first for a while and is left behind on his planet in a similar manner.
She got her bar/temple destroyed, she probably has a lot on her own plate, she's not resistance... why would you see more of her? I'm pretty sure her character will reappear in 8 or 9.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 23, 2015, 04:20:03 PM
Definitely a fun film.  A great film no though, and if it was just a non Star Wars standalone film, it would not be getting such rave reviews.  But I did smile all the way through,  and agreed with the comments about the laughs in it. I loved the scene when
the Stormtroopers hear Renn throwing a tantrum and just head the opposite way.
(note: mini-rant not [entirely] directed at you!)

I've seen a few people say that kind of thing, and I just don't get it. The Phantom Menace has an average rating of 51% on Metascore, 56% on RT, 6.5 on IMDB. That's a Star Wars film too, and it didn't get a high rating just because it's SW. Sure, SW has a huge audience and the name guarantees a huge turnout, but that doesn't mean that people will automatically lap it up.

It's not a deep and nuanced character drama; it's not a terrifying horror film; it's not a heart-wrenching romance film; it's not a suspenseful mystery; it's not a gritty war film. It's not meant to be. It's meant to be a fun and exciting action film, and in that context it's perfect - hence the high rating. Surely rating it based on anything else is like saying someone's curry isn't great food because it's not as sweet as ice cream?!

I also felt it is a brilliant starting point for a new expanded universe.  Comic book writers and pulp sci fi writers are probably emailing in proposition to Lucasfilms as we speak. For example: 
Max Von Sydow's character needs a back story, why is he trusted ally? Why is hiding out on Jakku? 
Yeah definitely, there are numerous moments where a deep backstory is hinted at with a couple of lines of dialogue and then never mentioned again. No way they can explore it all in just three films, so there's a load of material there.

Things I was disappointed in though. 
Maz seemed a big deal but then she disappeared.  You have Iko Uwais and Mad Dog from the Raid, but instead of them doing awesome martial arts, they just get chased by tentacled beasties.  Admiral Ackbar never says it is a trap. And WTF was the deal with R2D2 suddenly snapping out of low battery mode?
I thought Maz was just another of those deeper elements as above, wasn't bothered by how little she was in it (didn't like the character anyway).  :P
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on December 23, 2015, 06:13:23 PM
Okay, 3D was better than 2D in my opinion. It looks a lot cooler, especially
the chase scene from jakku and the starfighters on the weapon planet

Also, for those of you that have seen the movie and read Aftermath. Here is a little tidbit:
Snap is the starfighter that helped make plans to attack At the end. In Aftermath he is
Temmin!
I only know this because wendig posted it on his blog.


Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on December 23, 2015, 09:55:26 PM
One small knock I have on it. Where was Wedge? They had all these other call backs and neither hide nor hair of Wedge Antilles. He was one of the few guys who survived the original Deathstar attack. There was room to fit him in, just as a commander or something in the war room before the attack. He could have actually replaced Greg Grunberg.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nighteyes on December 23, 2015, 10:04:33 PM
One small knock I have on it. Where was Wedge? They had all these other call backs and neither hide nor hair of Wedge Antilles. He was one of the few guys who survived the original Deathstar attack. There was room to fit him in, just as a commander or something in the war room before the attack. He could have actually replaced Greg Grunberg.

The actor who played Wedge wanted nothing to do with the new film.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 23, 2015, 11:54:49 PM
Definitely a fun film.  A great film no though, and if it was just a non Star Wars standalone film, it would not be getting such rave reviews.  But I did smile all the way through,  and agreed with the comments about the laughs in it. I loved the scene when
the Stormtroopers hear Renn throwing a tantrum and just head the opposite way.
(note: mini-rant not [entirely] directed at you!)

I've seen a few people say that kind of thing, and I just don't get it. The Phantom Menace has an average rating of 51% on Metascore, 56% on RT, 6.5 on IMDB. That's a Star Wars film too, and it didn't get a high rating just because it's SW. Sure, SW has a huge audience and the name guarantees a huge turnout, but that doesn't mean that people will automatically lap it up.

It's not a deep and nuanced character drama; it's not a terrifying horror film; it's not a heart-wrenching romance film; it's not a suspenseful mystery; it's not a gritty war film. It's not meant to be. It's meant to be a fun and exciting action film, and in that context it's perfect - hence the high rating. Surely rating it based on anything else is like saying someone's curry isn't great food because it's not as sweet as ice cream?!

I not only agree but will argue further :

Because it's a SW film a lot of fans also got prepared to hate on the smallest detail. The internet is also full of rants from fans of the expended universe that can't deal with the fact that what they're now reading and loving is not cannon any more.
People were swooned because the good aspects of the film overweight the defects, and despite all the myth and deification of the franchise, a good action movie is all that the fans ever wanted.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on December 24, 2015, 04:40:35 AM
Just saw it today, and I think it was pretty awesome! 4.5
The things that caused it not to be a 5.

First, Finn just being able to pic up a lightsaber and be able to fend off Kylo with it at all. Really? He's a storm trooper. He's not supposed to have saber training.
Speaking of Finn, his character wasn't fleshed out enough for me. I understand that he's a former storm trooper, but why did he walk away? Okay, I get that killing a whole village of people is terrible, but that can't be the first awful thing he saw. Also, besides being a coward in the beginning, he didn't truly struggle with much. He didn't act like someone who had been brainwashed since birth. So what makes him different?
Rey could've killed Kylo at least twice in their little final battle. But no. She's just going to stand their and do some dramatic stuff. Just stab him already! I've already heard the argument about that preventing future films, but a good writer can come up with a better scenario to prevent his murder.
And why didn't those angry monster things just kill Finn? Why did they decide to drag him away and give Rey the opportunity to slam the door on the tentacles? What makes Finn so special that it doesn't just pop him in it's mouth?
Oh, and how the  plot was almost a copy paste from A New Hope. There were different things of course, but basically the same thing.
Otherwise though, pretty impressed. I was one of those who had a lot of doubts walking into it. I was prepared to laugh at everyone who wasted their time. But after the reviews, I decided it was worth a shot. I still went in with skepticism as is evident above, but this time, believe the hype.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 24, 2015, 05:03:30 AM


First, Finn just being able to pic up a lightsaber and be able to fend off Kylo with it at all. Really? He's a storm trooper. He's not supposed to have saber training.
For me it's just about believable: Ren is injured (Chewie shot him) and in emotional turmoil (killed his dad), and appears to be toying with Finn (when Finn manages to get a hit on him, Ren suddenly ups his game and disarms & disables him within seconds), plus the entire time Finn is flailing about with the sabre rather than matching Ren's moves. It's definitely one that's close to the edge though.

Speaking of Finn, his character wasn't fleshed out enough for me. I understand that he's a former storm trooper, but why did he walk away? Okay, I get that killing a whole village of people is terrible, but that can't be the first awful thing he saw. Also, besides being a coward in the beginning, he didn't truly struggle with much. He didn't act like someone who had been brainwashed since birth. So what makes him different?
He mentions explicitly at one point that it was his first battle, and later on mentions the kinds of tasks he had were latrine duty, so there are explanations there. I think the stress of his first battle is meant to have broken through his conditioning or something - that's the implication I got from his opening scenes at least. I thought he was one of the better characters.

Rey could've killed Kylo at least twice in their little final battle. But no. She's just going to stand their and do some dramatic stuff. Just stab him already! I've already heard the argument about that preventing future films, but a good writer can come up with a better scenario to prevent his murder.
Not sure which bits those are, would have to watch it again!

And why didn't those angry monster things just kill Finn? Why did they decide to drag him away and give Rey the opportunity to slam the door on the tentacles? What makes Finn so special that it doesn't just pop him in it's mouth?
Yeah that was a bit weird. Maybe they're racist?  ;D
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 24, 2015, 06:17:53 AM
In defense of Kylo Ren :

Jeremy Janhs raises an excellent point in his spoiler video on the movie :
Please let's all remember that ever since Kylo fell to the dark side, Luke went in hiding. Maybe there were other force students, but what ever went down with them, it happened, what? 15 years ago probably, since Ben seems in his early thirties.
So, for 15 years he's been using his saber to throw tantrums and cut down grand fathers or people he immobilizes with the force. There are no jedis out there to oppose him. Rey just showed us she fights to survive in her daily life, while Kylo has been the only fish in his pond and is massively out of shape and training as a result.
Plus he's wounded, in turmoil, and hitting himself to increase his pain to stay strong in the dark side.
And, Snokes says he needs to finish Kylo's training. So what? He's truly just been a menacing puppet all this time, not even properly trained!

In defense of Rey :
Why would you kill the son of your friend? He just died trying to bring him back alive (or else he could've shot him in the back easily) so killing Kylo would make Han's death pointless.
Of course she fights him and sees a monster. But she was also in his head, she also heard him talk. She sees him as a conflicted human being, as we're meant to, not as a pure evil figure. Maybe she never killed before.
And Kylo was ordered to bring her alive. He tries to get her as an apprentice too. He's not going after her life... Maybe just after a cut limb or two :p

For the space monster things, when I saw it the second time, I saw how they played it : the monsters are shown catching the mercenaries in tentacles and shift around with them, while eating one. They keep their prey trapped, maybe while they keep hunting?
Didn't bother me as much as chewie showing up with the falcon on Rey's location (is she wearing a tracker?) or bypassing leia after han's death.
Or the 1min trip through the galaxy at the end. Man she spent longer going up the stairs than traveling across the galaxy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ArcaneArtsVelho on December 24, 2015, 09:43:48 AM
Re: In defence of Rey:
I don't really remember the points in the final battle, that ultament mentioned, where Rey could have killed Kylo, but I think that if the ground hadn't opened up between them, she would have killed him. At least that's the expression I got from her... expression when she stared at him over the chasm. (And btw I feel that Daisy Ridley was really good at showing the emotions of Rey through her facial expressions.) After all, Kylo had just killed her friend (or possibly two as she didn't know how bad Finn got hit), and she probably wasn't as invested as Han in trying to bring Kylo back from the dark side. Hell, even Han himself wasn't sure about getting Kylo back until Leia told him to try. So, in a way, Leia killed Han.  ???

Chewie bypassing Leia was quite a big mistake IMO, but Chewie finding Rey and Finn with the Falcon didn't feel that far-fetched. I mean, they were all trying to get to the Falcon, right? So they probably weren't too far. Also I don't think that the minute-long trip through the galaxy was that bad; it wasn't about the journey, but the destination. I do think that the movie could have been a little longer as there were some parts that felt too rushed (and bothered me more than the trip in the end).
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 24, 2015, 11:33:11 AM
Mmmh...

I got the copy of a pretty bad cam of the movie in order to refresh my memory...

And in the end I don't agree. After Rey quiets down with the force, she over powers Kylo.
When she deals him a leg cut (?) and he falls to the ground, she waits 4 seconds, and attacks only in answer to his swing. Then he stumbles back and she just walks towards him.
She does a full over head swing on him and then kick him in the chest. He's on his back then, and she just prowls around him, looking ferocious. 7 seconds of that, until, again, he swings at her and she defends herself.
Here I can see Ultament's pov, but that also fits my answer that she isn't trying to end him.
Then they're struggling, holding hands (Maybe she'll bring him back to the light side and they'll end up together? Great chemistry. Imagine how powerful their kid would be).
She actually wins the power struggle since she gets his saber deep in the snow, then cuts in with her own (my first reaction here was to wonder if we'd get more cut hands?) and slashes him in the face.
The move is not ample, she definitely didn't aim to behead him.
Then 11 seconds of dramatic music while she catches her breath and we see Kylo looking up with some epic facial scars.

Then the ground splits.

At this stage I'm pretty sure that if she'd had her way, she'd have knocked him unconscious and brought him back to Leia.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ArcaneArtsVelho on December 24, 2015, 12:53:52 PM
Okay, fair enough. I have only seen it once and have no means of refreshing my memory, so my view of it is very much a first impression and probably highly coloured by the whole movie experience.  :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 24, 2015, 01:29:21 PM
Okay, fair enough. I have only seen it once and have no means of refreshing my memory, so my view of it is very much a first impression and probably highly coloured by the whole movie experience.  :)

Bah, even then this is not a scene that is obvious enough, so it's definitely open to interpretation!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on December 24, 2015, 03:15:07 PM
excited!  i'm going to see it for the second time finally.  and i'll get to take the boys this time since the wife and i saw it as part of a work function while they were in school last week.


i've only seen it once so far, but these are the things i remember.

on finn and kylo fighting:
it looked to me like kylo was toying with finn.  he could have swooped in and smashed him anytime.

on rey and kylo:
don't forget too, they were probably at the same force academy (her visions, getting dropped off on the planet, etc.) as kids.  she might even remember him.  brother.  cousin.  friend.  something like that.  also, since it was 30 years after jedi, we know kylo ren is less than thirty years old since han and leia didn't become 'a thing' until the end of the movie.

on the monster not eating finn:
this annoyed the hell out of me.  i think it's the d&d dungeon master in me.

on leia:
she didn't move her stupid lips when she talked.  annoying.  and she didn't have anything that wasn't forced chemistry with han, much less the wookie -- also annoyed me.  leia was plain annoying.  maybe it was just because of the sharp contrast between carrie fisher and how amazing daisy ridley was.  omg -- i'm in love! (wait, did i really just say that?)

starkiller sucking up the sun:
i just could not suspend my belief here.  i was nearly flailing my arms in pain the whole time.  not only is that more energy and heat than whatever stupid battery the starkiller had could hold, but without a sun, what happens to the solar system's gravity?  what about smashing something with the enormous mass of a star into a (relatively) tiny planet?  this part made me want to cry.

on the copy-paste plot:
it was nothing of the sort.  there are flashes of elements that were the same.  like, a kid hiding on a desert planet.  a stupid planet-weapon.  the badguy had a black mask and a lightsaber.  uh...  other than that, it's really just a standard hero's journey.  as for more, this guy goes deeper into why it's not:  http://mashable.com/2015/12/23/force-awakens-is-no-remake

Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on December 24, 2015, 04:40:29 PM


Speaking of Finn, his character wasn't fleshed out enough for me. I understand that he's a former storm trooper, but why did he walk away? Okay, I get that killing a whole village of people is terrible, but that can't be the first awful thing he saw. Also, besides being a coward in the beginning, he didn't truly struggle with much. He didn't act like someone who had been brainwashed since birth. So what makes him different?
He mentions explicitly at one point that it was his first battle, and later on mentions the kinds of tasks he had were latrine duty, so there are explanations there. I think the stress of his first battle is meant to have broken through his conditioning or something - that's the implication I got from his opening scenes at least. I thought he was one of the better characters.


Even then though, why did he suddenly get promoted from latrine duty to soldier? How did he go from janitor to warrior? You would think The First Order would brainwash their people enough to where the first battle wouldn't break them. Otherwise more soldiers would've deserted.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 24, 2015, 05:57:11 PM


Speaking of Finn, his character wasn't fleshed out enough for me. I understand that he's a former storm trooper, but why did he walk away? Okay, I get that killing a whole village of people is terrible, but that can't be the first awful thing he saw. Also, besides being a coward in the beginning, he didn't truly struggle with much. He didn't act like someone who had been brainwashed since birth. So what makes him different?
He mentions explicitly at one point that it was his first battle, and later on mentions the kinds of tasks he had were latrine duty, so there are explanations there. I think the stress of his first battle is meant to have broken through his conditioning or something - that's the implication I got from his opening scenes at least. I thought he was one of the better characters.


Even then though, why did he suddenly get promoted from latrine duty to soldier? How did he go from janitor to warrior? You would think The First Order would brainwash their people enough to where the first battle wouldn't break them. Otherwise more soldiers would've deserted.
Definitely in the realms of speculation now, but I'd assume that younger troopers would be given menial duties while they're being trained for combat. Could be an interesting story to explore in detail though for sure!


As to the brainwashing, they do mention some kind of corrections procedure, so troopers break often enough for that to be a necessity. The reason Finn wasn't re-brainwashed was that he escaped so quickly, and that opportunity was down to pure chance (without Poe's help he would have been screwed).
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on December 24, 2015, 10:33:59 PM


Speaking of Finn, his character wasn't fleshed out enough for me. I understand that he's a former storm trooper, but why did he walk away? Okay, I get that killing a whole village of people is terrible, but that can't be the first awful thing he saw. Also, besides being a coward in the beginning, he didn't truly struggle with much. He didn't act like someone who had been brainwashed since birth. So what makes him different?
He mentions explicitly at one point that it was his first battle, and later on mentions the kinds of tasks he had were latrine duty, so there are explanations there. I think the stress of his first battle is meant to have broken through his conditioning or something - that's the implication I got from his opening scenes at least. I thought he was one of the better characters.


Even then though, why did he suddenly get promoted from latrine duty to soldier? How did he go from janitor to warrior? You would think The First Order would brainwash their people enough to where the first battle wouldn't break them. Otherwise more soldiers would've deserted.
I kind of got the impression that the First Order were a bit like Hitler's Germany in the later stages of WW II, where they were so desperate for man power that they started elevating barely trained Hitler Youth members to the front lines. Finn wasn't ready and he freaked his first time in battle when he saw a friend die.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 24, 2015, 11:32:43 PM
To answer m3mnoch :

Yes, I had that same impression... Kylo seemed to react really badly when he hears there was a "girl", strangling the messanger almost immediately, and being really intent on finding her after that.
But Rey doesn't seem to remember him, or training, or Luke... But it could explain how she got so good with the Force so fast : Maybe she had some light training at a very young age, and was forced later to unlearn what she had been taught. She barely seems 4 or 5 on the shot of her being abandoned.
Which means that if she is being abandoned after Luke's school failed, it failed when she was 5, and if it is when Kylo turned 15, he'd be 10 years older. He hardly looks it... But he'd be thirty and her 20.

Other option could be that whoever Luke's girlfriend was, she might have left him when things got complicated/dangerous, and having his kid with or without him knowing. She'd be justified to abandon her child to such planet because she could have the first order hot on her trail or somesuch.

As for the soldiers... Since they all built and operate Star Killer, which is planet sized, everyone would need to have at least two jobs for sure. Armies keep soldiers busy even in times of peace or rest in the regiment. Some soldiers are electricians, technicians, builders, engineers, mechanics... So why not troopers? And on a planet sized station, you'd have to have a lot of janitors as well, hence Finn's job. It's not a promotion, it's the two sides of his employment.
I thought they made a good job of explaining it. 


Also, honestly, the real copy paste is not so much what you state m3m, but the way they all sit down by the Star Killer sim, identify the weak point, have a 30 seconds meetinsg, break up without assigning squads or anything, and then go and do a basic re-run of the death star destruction, with more cuts in between. But these cuts contain an ominous bridge with no railing, a son and father, a light saber strike and a fall down the chute, then they blow up the place and fly back to camp. It is very similar in that respect. But it honestly didn't bother me. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on December 25, 2015, 12:41:59 AM
riffing a bit with nora.


Yes, I had that same impression... Kylo seemed to react really badly when he hears there was a "girl", strangling the messanger almost immediately, and being really intent on finding her after that.
But Rey doesn't seem to remember him, or training, or Luke... But it could explain how she got so good with the Force so fast : Maybe she had some light training at a very young age, and was forced later to unlearn what she had been taught. She barely seems 4 or 5 on the shot of her being abandoned.
Which means that if she is being abandoned after Luke's school failed, it failed when she was 5, and if it is when Kylo turned 15, he'd be 10 years older. He hardly looks it... But he'd be thirty and her 20.

the key to this is when kylo says something like "you dream of an ocean, and the island" when he's interrogating her.  she's seen luke's spot before -- which, i presume, is the jedi temple.

and, i believe official cannon says rey is 19, so your math sounds pretty spot-on.


Other option could be that whoever Luke's girlfriend was, she might have left him when things got complicated/dangerous, and having his kid with or without him knowing. She'd be justified to abandon her child to such planet because she could have the first order hot on her trail or somesuch.

As for the soldiers... Since they all built and operate Star Killer, which is planet sized, everyone would need to have at least two jobs for sure. Armies keep soldiers busy even in times of peace or rest in the regiment. Some soldiers are electricians, technicians, builders, engineers, mechanics... So why not troopers? And on a planet sized station, you'd have to have a lot of janitors as well, hence Finn's job. It's not a promotion, it's the two sides of his employment.
I thought they made a good job of explaining it. 

luke having a girlfriend other than mara jade makes my head hurt.  almost as much as ben being han and leia's kid.  i mean, if it turns out rey and kylo are twins, i'm gonna have a conniption their names aren't jaina and jacen.

but, yeah, rey is totally a skywalker.  i mean, do you know any other characters who a) were good mechanics, b) great pilots, and c) were jedi?


Also, honestly, the real copy paste is not so much what you state m3m, but the way they all sit down by the Star Killer sim, identify the weak point, have a 30 seconds meetinsg, break up without assigning squads or anything, and then go and do a basic re-run of the death star destruction, with more cuts in between. But these cuts contain an ominous bridge with no railing, a son and father, a light saber strike and a fall down the chute, then they blow up the place and fly back to camp. It is very similar in that respect. But it honestly didn't bother me. 

agreed.  they seemed to do that "scene echo" thing in several places.  i guess i'm just saying a scene != entire plot.

personally, they redeemed that trench-run plan with the sort of tongue-in-cheek approach to it.  especially solo with his "there's always a way" bit.

Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 25, 2015, 01:06:14 AM
It'd be nice actually is the Skylwalkers stopped hoarding the pilot-mechano-jedi trinity.

But I honestly think we're all imagining things wrong.

Ok. Besides the weird line, Kylo is also not surprised by her existence. Ok there has been an awakening, but he doesn't ask her for parentage and real origins... He trawls her mind and says :
"At night, desperate to sleep. Imagine an ocean. I see it. I see the island." then goes on to talk about Han.
To me that's no proof of anything, because he asks her to imagine the ocean... But maybe that's just the trick : since JJ did not script anything about Rey's parentage and origins, it's murky enough for us to imagine that Kylo is trapping her by such a move.

BUT my big problem is.... I don't think that Kylo or Rey ever were on the ocean/island planet. After all, if they'd been raised as apprentices there, why would Luke still be there ? Wouldn't that be one hell of a weird place to be hiding? If Leia sent her son there, wouldn't Kylo, or Leia, or Han, know of the location? Or see the road and be like, "huh, looks familiar?"
I doubt you can blindfold your friends in and out of the secret system you wanna live in and train people in..

So if the ocean/island 1st temple planet is a secret, it can't be the training grounds, so Rey can't remember it, nor can Kylo...


Also, pretty sure Kylo could have been conceived on a party night on Endor.. That would explain the disintegrated parenthood as well... Not really planned.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on December 25, 2015, 05:09:12 AM
It'd be nice actually is the Skylwalkers stopped hoarding the pilot-mechano-jedi trinity.

But I honestly think we're all imagining things wrong.

Ok. Besides the weird line, Kylo is also not surprised by her existence. Ok there has been an awakening, but he doesn't ask her for parentage and real origins... He trawls her mind and says :
"At night, desperate to sleep. Imagine an ocean. I see it. I see the island." then goes on to talk about Han.
To me that's no proof of anything, because he asks her to imagine the ocean... But maybe that's just the trick : since JJ did not script anything about Rey's parentage and origins, it's murky enough for us to imagine that Kylo is trapping her by such a move.

BUT my big problem is.... I don't think that Kylo or Rey ever were on the ocean/island planet. After all, if they'd been raised as apprentices there, why would Luke still be there ? Wouldn't that be one hell of a weird place to be hiding? If Leia sent her son there, wouldn't Kylo, or Leia, or Han, know of the location? Or see the road and be like, "huh, looks familiar?"
I doubt you can blindfold your friends in and out of the secret system you wanna live in and train people in..

So if the ocean/island 1st temple planet is a secret, it can't be the training grounds, so Rey can't remember it, nor can Kylo...


Also, pretty sure Kylo could have been conceived on a party night on Endor.. That would explain the disintegrated parenthood as well... Not really planned.
"Kylo, you bastard!" Luke glares down at Kylo from a catwalk far far above. "Oh wait..."
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Doctor_Chill on December 25, 2015, 05:42:20 AM
Saw it. Loved it. Very predictable plot line but who cares.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 25, 2015, 10:06:52 AM
Now you can go three pages back and read everything in spoiler brackets!!  ;D
(http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/anNYZ55_700b_v1.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Yora on December 25, 2015, 10:27:03 PM
Just saw the movie today. I think it was okay. I agree with what they did with the plot and the acting and directing was done quite well, but the script wasn't done well. The pacing and tension just don't really work. It's better than Episode 1 and 2, but I am not sure if it can beat 3.
I don't feel like I have to watch it again, but I think I want to see the next one.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 26, 2015, 12:52:01 AM
Just saw the movie today. I think it was okay. I agree with what they did with the plot and the acting and directing was done quite well, but the script wasn't done well. The pacing and tension just don't really work. It's better than Episode 1 and 2, but I am not sure if it can beat 3.
I don't feel like I have to watch it again, but I think I want to see the next one.

Really? Not beating episode 3?? I'm surprised you could be this disappointed. I think this movie, even without taking into account any SW factoids, beats ep I, II and III by far and large.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Yora on December 26, 2015, 09:23:04 AM
Episode 3 has a number of highly entertaining scenes and even though Anakin's switch to the dark side was done poorly and the acting often much worse than in Episode 7, it managed to create the tension that something big and dramatic is happening and that the situation is dire and the stakes high. Which this movie just doesn't.

The New Death Star is not properly introduced and then it blows up some planets we don't know anything about. Then the New Rebels on New Yavin just suddenly run to their New X-Wings because the New Death Star is apparently there. Did they know they are being followed? Then why did they lead the New Death Star to New Yavin? Luke had been gone for ages, the New Plans were not necessary to stop the New Death Star as soon as possible. They could have gone hiding for a few months and then find a different ship. And why does New Luke have to deliver the lightsaber to Luke? Why didn't Leia go with Chewie to find him. She's the one who has been searching for him all the time.
New Tarkin was not imtroduced and I don't have any clue who the New Emperor is meant to be. Is he another Sith Lord who succeeded the old Emperor or completely unconnected? And is the New Empire still the old Empire with  different brand? And is the Resistance allied or identical to the Republic? (Maybe the German dub used strange translations for the names, but I don't think that's the sole source of the confusion. And New Vader just sucks. He's even worse than Episode 3 Vader. He is just some kid who wears a Vader outfit because he wants to be like his grampa, not because he needs a suit or mask. Nobody respects him and his parents are just sad that he refuses to come back and finish school. And then he gets badly beaten in lightsaber fights against two people who never had any lightsaber training at all and who have never even seen a lightsaber before.

The visuals are okay, the music is okay, the acting is fine and there is nothing to complain about the heroes. Directing and cutting also seems okay most of the time. But the script is just awful. And the villains are lame.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on December 26, 2015, 01:43:18 PM
Interesting @Yora (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=35236), seems like you had very different expectations of the film, and there might have been bits and pieces lost in translation. Loads of stuff was only explained in passing, so it's understandable I guess.

The New Death Star is not properly introduced and then it blows up some planets we don't know anything about.
It's a new death star - what more did you need to know about it?  :P

Agree about not really caring about those planets. I think one of them is meant to be Coruscant, but they weren't particularly meaningful.

Then the New Rebels on New Yavin just suddenly run to their New X-Wings because the New Death Star is apparently there. Did they know they are being followed? Then why did they lead the New Death Star to New Yavin?
I don't think the new death star followed them. Wasn't the whole point that it could shoot planets in any star system in the galaxy? It's a fairly ludicrous idea scientifically speaking, but then again so are laser swords and mind control.

What actually happened was that the first order managed to discover the location of the resistance. The resistance then had to either abandon base or launch a pre-emptive strike and destroy the new death star.

Luke had been gone for ages, the New Plans were not necessary to stop the New Death Star as soon as possible. They could have gone hiding for a few months and then find a different ship.
Not sure what Luke has to do with the death star stuff - which is actually one of the problems I had with the plot. If the story is about finding Luke, then I think there was too much focus on the death star. If not, then it's weird how easily they defeated it.

For some reason they never consider abandoning their base, but then again nobody other than the evil guys ever seems to consider having a mobile base in a massive starship... Clearly, logic isn't strong with them.  :P

And why does New Luke have to deliver the lightsaber to Luke? Why didn't Leia go with Chewie to find him. She's the one who has been searching for him all the time.
Yup that one's weird. It's pretty clear that Rey is Luke's daughter, but since that's not revealed in this film it feels like a really odd decision.

New Tarkin was not imtroduced and I don't have any clue who the New Emperor is meant to be. Is he another Sith Lord who succeeded the old Emperor or completely unconnected?
They don't really answer those questions in the film, probably because they'll be more relevant later on. It's the first film of a trilogy - there's no way they'll give all the answers in the first one.

And is the New Empire still the old Empire with  different brand? And is the Resistance allied or identical to the Republic?
New empire = remnants of the old empire, no longer in power across the galaxy. The republic and resistance are separate, and supposedly their alliance is secret. This bit isn't explained beyond a line or two of dialogue (plus whatever it said in the opening scroll), could definitely do with more information.

And New Vader just sucks. He's even worse than Episode 3 Vader. He is just some kid who wears a Vader outfit because he wants to be like his grampa, not because he needs a suit or mask. Nobody respects him and his parents are just sad that he refuses to come back and finish school. And then he gets badly beaten in lightsaber fights against two people who never had any lightsaber training at all and who have never even seen a lightsaber before.
That's the whole point. He wants to be like Vader, but he's weak, out of practice, arrogant. He's meant to be a flawed villain. He doesn't get badly beaten by Finn - he plays around until Finn manages to hit him, then disables Finn within seconds. He does get badly beaten by Rey, he's weak and out of practice; Rey is apparently the first competent person he's encountered in a decade or more.

I actually have more of a problem with Rey than anything else. She's an absolute Mary Sue - she can speak all languages she encounters (including Wookie and Droid), she's a brilliant pilot, a great engineer, great at fighting with her staff, instantly great at using the force, instantly comfortable wielding a lightsaber. She's very similar to Anakin, which could potentially explain why Luke would wipe her memory and hide her on a desert planet alone I suppose...  :-\

The visuals are okay, the music is okay, the acting is fine and there is nothing to complain about the heroes. Directing and cutting also seems okay most of the time. But the script is just awful. And the villains are lame.
For me, the visuals, direction were miles better than any of the other SW films, and the music was on par. The acting was decent, which instantly puts it far ahead of any of the other SW films (OT included, the acting there is awkward at best). Script-wise I thought it had a few flaws, but nothing really glaring, and it was very entertaining.

As to the villains, I thought the general was decent while Snoke was disappointing, but that Ren was a refreshingly flawed villain - other SW villains have been too inhuman, with Ren they have an opportunity to do something new.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 26, 2015, 03:02:33 PM
Agreed with Raptori, and gotta add :

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    And why does New Luke have to deliver the lightsaber to Luke? Why didn't Leia go with Chewie to find him. She's the one who has been searching for him all the time.

Yup that one's weird. It's pretty clear that Rey is Luke's daughter, but since that's not revealed in this film it feels like a really odd decision.

Why weird? General Leia Organa has a rebelion to lead... Chewie is there, but does Luke even speak his language?
More importantly, why would any of them go to Luke? Imagine reuniting with Leia, after Han was murdered by his own son, turned to the dark side while under the supervision of Luke, the very fact that pushed him to exile himself... If anything it might make him fold unto himself even more.
It's the smart thing to do to send an apprentice. One who was called by the saber, and (presumably) wants to be trained. If she were left alone, Ren or Snoke might get a hand on her. I'm pretty sure Luke felt her awakening if both the baddies felt it as well. He just can't ignore her without risking making a dark-side out of her.
Leia would have duties to return to. What could she do but try to involve him with the resistance?
Forcing Luke to consider a new trainee is a great subtle way to force his involvement.
If she is her daughter, I don't think Leia knows. We say it's obvious, but apparently JJ never decided or scripted anything on her parentage, leaving everything up to the following team. 


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Nobody respects him and his parents are just sad that he refuses to come back and finish school

I've said my piece in the defense of Kylo higher up, and Raptori voiced my opinion, but I've gotta add that what you describe Yora, is exactly what you'd expect in real life.
Staff don't respect him, they fear him. It's bad for morale, and I'm sure that the famous french war call "Qui m'aime me suive!" - "Follow me if you love me!", would leave him quite alone. But I doubt he cares, he gets to give orders and sees them obeyed.
And of course his parents are sad. Do you think Anakin's parents wouldn't have been devastated if they'd lived to see their son murder rooms full of children?
I think they're beyond sad. It's been going on for 15 years or so, it tore their family and couple apart, they're ridden with guilt... But Kylo still is no Darth Vader, and that's why it's more sadness than despair. He's become a pawn, and as parents they worry. He has room to become worth, or back to the light.
To me that doesn't make him pathetic, but more of a tragic, realistic character - so far as space opera fantasy realism goes.

I also agree that in my opinion the acting was infinitely better than any other Star Wars to date. 1 to 3 is best forgotten, and 4 to 6 is good, but typical of these 70's/80's movies, sort of standoffish, and tbh, Han's seduction technique and lines, which used to make me dream as a girl, is actually pretty cringe worthy as an adult.

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Then the New Rebels on New Yavin just suddenly run to their New X-Wings because the New Death Star is apparently there

They learn that they will be fired on in a matter of minutes/hours (can't remember). What if they don't have most of their ships on them? Should only x-wing pilots and some cargos escape? Leave people behind?
They'd also loose their entire base, which, after the destruction of the republic, could well mean the end of their influence for ever.
Politically, running just isn't viable and wouldn't sell on the screen as well.
Attacking is the pro-active way out. We keep saying we don't want characters to only react to enemies, but act. I guess that's what they did. Even though they definitely re-ashed old plots.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nighteyes on December 26, 2015, 03:16:45 PM
Where has this figure of 15 years come from? I would say based on the films being 30 years apart; Ham and Leia had Ben 3 or 4 years after the ending of Return of Jedi. Say he was turned maybe between 18 and 21, that would put the events which tear the Solos/ Skywalkers apart about 5 years ago. I would say 5 years is a credible amount of time for the New Order to form. And for the mystery to surround Luke to have developed. And for me makes it unlikely that Rey is Luke's daughter as she looked about 5 years old in the clips and about 21 now. So that all went down about 15 years ago.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 26, 2015, 03:30:19 PM
Where has this figure of 15 years come from? I would say based on the films being 30 years apart; Ham and Leia had Ben 3 or 4 years after the ending of Return of Jedi. Say he was turned maybe between 18 and 21, that would put the events which tear the Solos/ Skywalkers apart about 5 years ago. I would say 5 years is a credible amount of time for the New Order to form. And for the mystery to surround Luke to have developed. And for me makes it unlikely that Rey is Luke's daughter as she looked about 5 years old in the clips and about 21 now. So that all went down about 15 years ago.

Which is why the 15 yo crops up.

If you assume Kylo is the child of a night of drunken celebration on Endor, he could have been born a year later. Why not? I don't see Han and Leia staying trouble free for 3 years, and having planned parenthood.
If so then Kylo is 29 years old.
We can also assume that he was a bratty, powerful kid jedi, with an absentee father and busy rebel mom who sent him early on to Luke. Jedis were trained from birth no?
Let's say Kylo was sent when he was 8 years old, making him already older than the butchered up kids of ep III.
That takes us 9 years after Endor. Then he trains with Luke for 6 or 7 years before he sours up, and could have spent a handful of years being a knight of Ren.
Imagine! 6 years of training, when Luke had only months!
It's more than enough to imagine, especially when you see what a raw gem Kylo is. 6 years of training and he can't do a saber as smooth as Luke did after months of training? It's almost insulting.
Anyway, it would mean Kylo broke up with the Light side and his family at age 16-17, and spent 13-12 years operating on the dark side.

That's the reflection that birthes the 15 years figure, given that I first assumed he'd have broken earlier, around 15, and that he was 30. But he indeed can't really be more than 29.

Nothing prevents Rey from being Luke's daughter, because he could be ignorant of her (space hookups!) or know that his ex-gf hid a brat somewhere before disappearing, in order to protect her.
He could also have forced the mom to do so after the Kylo debacle. If she is 20 now, and Kylo is 29, it means that when he broke down at 15, she'd have been 6 years old at the time. BOOM! It lines up!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: tebakutis on December 26, 2015, 07:23:22 PM
I saw it last night, and am officially inoculated against spoilers. Whew! I did enjoy it, and I agree it's a good Star Wars movie, but I will admit some stuff bugged me. And not in the "it bothers you after you leave the theater" way, which is fine, but in the "it bugs me as I'm watching it" way. Still, it was a good movie.

My thoughts (DO NOT OPEN IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE)

Stuff I liked:

I sort of love that Harrison Ford must have said, in no uncertain terms, I am only doing ONE of these things. Do not bring me back. Do not leave any doubt I am dead. I'll do the movie and I'm done.

Basically, he has Han Solo get stabbed through the heart with a lightsaber, then fall into an incredibly deep pit, then have the base in which that pit exists blow up, then have the planet on which the base is set blow up. So: stab me in a heart then drop me in a pit in a base that blows up on a planet that blows up.

He literally could not have made Han any deader if he dropped a Death Star on him. I respect that.

Loved the new characters - Rey and Finn especially, but also Poe (even though he didn't get to do as much in the movie). My understanding from reading articles on line is that Poe was originally intended to die in the TIE crash, which is why he doesn't do a whole bunch and just randomly appears at the end.

Rey is NOT a Mary Sue - thank you Internet, for being annoying once again - but she DID get maybe one too many deux ex machinas, which I disliked, especially because there were much better options to keep her agency/awesomeness.

Finn has the best comic chops/lines of any character in any of the Star Wars movies (John Boyega nailed it) and the comedy in this installment was probably the best since ESB, IMO.

I like that some of the First Order stormtroopers had some personality, like the guy who busts out the energy stick to fight Finn's lightsaber (the BALLS on that dude) and the two troopers who just turn around and GTFO when Kylo is having his latest tantrum. Also, I swear Gwendoline Christie emoted THROUGH her Stormtrooper helmet when Finn and Han decide to drop her in the trash compactor. Love that woman.

Generally, they followed the beats and plotlines of Star Wars, and the fanservice/callbacks were somewhat in your face, but it didn't really bother me. And as expected, great action throughout.

Did Not Like:
The Sunsucker/System Killer planet thing. It didn't feel creative to me. It like like pandering, like "Hey, remember how cool the Death Star was? Well here's the Death Star, except it's 80 times as big, and it sucks the energy of a SUN to power it, and it blows up 5 planets at a time instead of one!!!!" They even went so far as to show the little hologram off "Here's the Death Star! See how tiny it is? Oh look how much bigger this new one is!"

Yet it gets blown up under basically the same principle. Note to Empire/First Order: Start building more than one thermal exhaust port, and have ways to shut down the power if it gets overloaded. I'm not saying they should have done the Sun Crusher (bleck) but the Starkiller Base was too much of an obvious "Deathstar 2.0" for me.

How does it suck the power of a sun to fire? Are there multiple suns in the same system? How does destroying the sun NOT send all the planets, including Starkiller Base, out of orbit? Does the sun recharge between sucking? How long does that take? NONE of this makes sense, and it doesn't make sense WHILE I'm watching the movie.

How does the Starkiller base's laser travel from one star system to another in a matter of seconds? We are dealing with the speed of LIGHT here, people. You know how we have light years? We call them light YEARS because it's how long light travels in a YEAR. Guess what. Star systems are more than a few light YEARS apart. So the 30 seconds from firing to blowing up five planets made me groan.

Not sure how we were supposed to care about the planets that blew up either. They were basically introduced 5 seconds before they got destroyed. We heard something about the "New Republic" but I think they had basically 20 seconds of screen time and then get blown up with no real consequences (that we see). It's like, I guess, "fridging" a star system? They blow up just to motivate the characters? So that was the weakest part of it. At least when the Death Star blew up Alderaan, we got to see Leia's reaction to it as she watched, so there was SOME emotion. Did not feel it with Starkiller Base.

Anyway, enough about that. It's Star Wars. I get it. But the second biggest thing that bothered me was Rey and Kylo's fight. She should not have beat him the way she did.

Basically, after Finn goes down (dude, I felt that) Rey grabs Luke's lightsaber and fights Kylo. Kylo is the better swordsman, and backs her up to a cliff. Then he stops, asks to train her, and the "force" fills Rey and magically makes her a super sword fighter. That's it. Rey needs help, the force says "Here, become awesome at lightsabers" and she beats Kylo. Totally a deux ex machina.

It bugs me even worse because they had a perfect way around it, and it was where I was expecting that scene to go. They have this PERFECT scene on Jakku earlier, where Finn first sees Rey. She gets attacked by TWO thugs who are bigger than she is, and totally pwn their faces with her quarterstaff/pole thing. She carries it through the ENTIRE movie. It's in all the art. She's an absolute badass with her staff, because she's trained with it for years (as opposed to using a lightsaber for all of 60 seconds).

So, what I expected was that after Kylo started beating her, she'd either get ahold of one of the First Order energy staffs (remember how they introduced a scene to show energy staffs could specifically fight lightsabers?) and then use her superior quarterstaff skills to beat the snot out of Kylo. Seriously - you've set up she's a badass staff fighter, you've set up there are energy staffs that can go toe-to-toe with lightsabers, and then you go "The Force makes Rey better?" Why, Abrams, why? You teed it up perfectly and then whiffed.

If Rey had looked at Kylo and thought "Why am I using a lightsaber? I'm a staff wielder!", pulled out a staff, and gone to town on Kylo Ren Darth Maul style, I would have been cheering like the audience. Instead, it felt like a  missed opportunity to use Rey's already established skillset and give her real agency, sacrificed so she could beat Kylo with Luke's lightsaber (symbolic, I know) because of magically and "just in time" granted sword skills.

There were other annoyances with the movie, but those were the two biggest. Hopefully, if Rey DOES build her own saber (which she should!) she'll go with the Darth Maul style double-bladed staff and kick ass with it in future movies.

Also, Chewbacca just walks past Leia at the end after Han is killed. Walks past! Not even a hug, or a snarf, or a sad look. Just strolls past Leia after Han is dead. That's cold, and not what Chewbacca would do. Also, considering I don't think Rey and Leia had met previously, why do they hug?

Final nitpick: people talk about Kylo being the best "dark side" example as you see his emotion throughout. But I found him frustrating.  He had no redeeming values (for me, at least) and the only thing he did that elevated him above a petulant child was killing Han Solo (which I guess at least proves they aren't going to try to "redeem" him, thank goodness). The Star Wars universe in general is WAAY too lenient about past crimes.

Vader gets redeemed at the end of Return of the Jedi. Why? Because he took 60 seconds of not being an ass and dropped the Emperor down a tube. Great? Before that, he blew up a planet, force-choked dozens if not multiple dozens of people, killed thousands, betrayed Mace Windu, and walked into the Jedi temple and CUT DOWN A BUNCH OF CHILDREN with his lightsaber. Seriously. Anakin kills a bunch of kids! But then, after all that, he has one second of doubt (which is selfish doubt, by the way, since he's saving his son) and he's magically redeemed? Nope. Not buying it.

Hopefully, killing Han Solo is the equivalent of killing a dog. No one forgives you for killing a dog. Kylo's going to be evil until he gets served (though if he does get redeemed and no one cares about all the crazy evil stuff he did, I'll be annoyed).

Despite all my nits, I'd watch it again, and it WAS the best Star Wars movie since the originals. But it doesn't beat ESB, in my opinion (still the perfect movie) and the cliffhanger at the end felt rushed.

Anyway. My thoughts, as they are. Whew! Venting/fanboying complete.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nighteyes on December 26, 2015, 08:32:04 PM
I saw it last night, and am officially inoculated against spoilers. Whew! I did enjoy it, and I agree it's a good Star Wars movie, but I will admit some stuff bugged me. And not in the "it bothers you after you leave the theater" way, which is fine, but in the "it bugs me as I'm watching it" way. Still, it was a good movie.

My thoughts (DO NOT OPEN IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE)

Stuff I liked:

I sort of love that Harrison Ford must have said, in no uncertain terms, I am only doing ONE of these things. Do not bring me back. Do not leave any doubt I am dead. I'll do the movie and I'm done.

Basically, he has Han Solo get stabbed through the heart with a lightsaber, then fall into an incredibly deep pit, then have the base in which that pit exists blow up, then have the planet on which the base is set blow up. So: stab me in a heart then drop me in a pit in a base that blows up on a planet that blows up.

He literally could not have made Han any deader if he dropped a Death Star on him. I respect that.

Loved the new characters - Rey and Finn especially, but also Poe (even though he didn't get to do as much in the movie). My understanding from reading articles on line is that Poe was originally intended to die in the TIE crash, which is why he doesn't do a whole bunch and just randomly appears at the end.

Rey is NOT a Mary Sue - thank you Internet, for being annoying once again - but she DID get maybe one too many deux ex machinas, which I disliked, especially because there were much better options to keep her agency/awesomeness.

Finn has the best comic chops/lines of any character in any of the Star Wars movies (John Boyega nailed it) and the comedy in this installment was probably the best since ESB, IMO.

I like that some of the First Order stormtroopers had some personality, like the guy who busts out the energy stick to fight Finn's lightsaber (the BALLS on that dude) and the two troopers who just turn around and GTFO when Kylo is having his latest tantrum. Also, I swear Gwendoline Christie emoted THROUGH her Stormtrooper helmet when Finn and Han decide to drop her in the trash compactor. Love that woman.

Generally, they followed the beats and plotlines of Star Wars, and the fanservice/callbacks were somewhat in your face, but it didn't really bother me. And as expected, great action throughout.

Did Not Like:
The Sunsucker/System Killer planet thing. It didn't feel creative to me. It like like pandering, like "Hey, remember how cool the Death Star was? Well here's the Death Star, except it's 80 times as big, and it sucks the energy of a SUN to power it, and it blows up 5 planets at a time instead of one!!!!" They even went so far as to show the little hologram off "Here's the Death Star! See how tiny it is? Oh look how much bigger this new one is!"

Yet it gets blown up under basically the same principle. Note to Empire/First Order: Start building more than one thermal exhaust port, and have ways to shut down the power if it gets overloaded. I'm not saying they should have done the Sun Crusher (bleck) but the Starkiller Base was too much of an obvious "Deathstar 2.0" for me.

How does it suck the power of a sun to fire? Are there multiple suns in the same system? How does destroying the sun NOT send all the planets, including Starkiller Base, out of orbit? Does the sun recharge between sucking? How long does that take? NONE of this makes sense, and it doesn't make sense WHILE I'm watching the movie.

How does the Starkiller base's laser travel from one star system to another in a matter of seconds? We are dealing with the speed of LIGHT here, people. You know how we have light years? We call them light YEARS because it's how long light travels in a YEAR. Guess what. Star systems are more than a few light YEARS apart. So the 30 seconds from firing to blowing up five planets made me groan.

Not sure how we were supposed to care about the planets that blew up either. They were basically introduced 5 seconds before they got destroyed. We heard something about the "New Republic" but I think they had basically 20 seconds of screen time and then get blown up with no real consequences (that we see). It's like, I guess, "fridging" a star system? They blow up just to motivate the characters? So that was the weakest part of it. At least when the Death Star blew up Alderaan, we got to see Leia's reaction to it as she watched, so there was SOME emotion. Did not feel it with Starkiller Base.

Anyway, enough about that. It's Star Wars. I get it. But the second biggest thing that bothered me was Rey and Kylo's fight. She should not have beat him the way she did.

Basically, after Finn goes down (dude, I felt that) Rey grabs Luke's lightsaber and fights Kylo. Kylo is the better swordsman, and backs her up to a cliff. Then he stops, asks to train her, and the "force" fills Rey and magically makes her a super sword fighter. That's it. Rey needs help, the force says "Here, become awesome at lightsabers" and she beats Kylo. Totally a deux ex machina.

It bugs me even worse because they had a perfect way around it, and it was where I was expecting that scene to go. They have this PERFECT scene on Jakku earlier, where Finn first sees Rey. She gets attacked by TWO thugs who are bigger than she is, and totally pwn their faces with her quarterstaff/pole thing. She carries it through the ENTIRE movie. It's in all the art. She's an absolute badass with her staff, because she's trained with it for years (as opposed to using a lightsaber for all of 60 seconds).

So, what I expected was that after Kylo started beating her, she'd either get ahold of one of the First Order energy staffs (remember how they introduced a scene to show energy staffs could specifically fight lightsabers?) and then use her superior quarterstaff skills to beat the snot out of Kylo. Seriously - you've set up she's a badass staff fighter, you've set up there are energy staffs that can go toe-to-toe with lightsabers, and then you go "The Force makes Rey better?" Why, Abrams, why? You teed it up perfectly and then whiffed.

If Rey had looked at Kylo and thought "Why am I using a lightsaber? I'm a staff wielder!", pulled out a staff, and gone to town on Kylo Ren Darth Maul style, I would have been cheering like the audience. Instead, it felt like a  missed opportunity to use Rey's already established skillset and give her real agency, sacrificed so she could beat Kylo with Luke's lightsaber (symbolic, I know) because of magically and "just in time" granted sword skills.

There were other annoyances with the movie, but those were the two biggest. Hopefully, if Rey DOES build her own saber (which she should!) she'll go with the Darth Maul style double-bladed staff and kick ass with it in future movies.

Also, Chewbacca just walks past Leia at the end after Han is killed. Walks past! Not even a hug, or a snarf, or a sad look. Just strolls past Leia after Han is dead. That's cold, and not what Chewbacca would do. Also, considering I don't think Rey and Leia had met previously, why do they hug?

Final nitpick: people talk about Kylo being the best "dark side" example as you see his emotion throughout. But I found him frustrating.  He had no redeeming values (for me, at least) and the only thing he did that elevated him above a petulant child was killing Han Solo (which I guess at least proves they aren't going to try to "redeem" him, thank goodness). The Star Wars universe in general is WAAY too lenient about past crimes.

Vader gets redeemed at the end of Return of the Jedi. Why? Because he took 60 seconds of not being an ass and dropped the Emperor down a tube. Great? Before that, he blew up a planet, force-choked dozens if not multiple dozens of people, killed thousands, betrayed Mace Windu, and walked into the Jedi temple and CUT DOWN A BUNCH OF CHILDREN with his lightsaber. Seriously. Anakin kills a bunch of kids! But then, after all that, he has one second of doubt (which is selfish doubt, by the way, since he's saving his son) and he's magically redeemed? Nope. Not buying it.

Hopefully, killing Han Solo is the equivalent of killing a dog. No one forgives you for killing a dog. Kylo's going to be evil until he gets served (though if he does get redeemed and no one cares about all the crazy evil stuff he did, I'll be annoyed).

Despite all my nits, I'd watch it again, and it WAS the best Star Wars movie since the originals. But it doesn't beat ESB, in my opinion (still the perfect movie) and the cliffhanger at the end felt rushed.

Anyway. My thoughts, as they are. Whew! Venting/fanboying complete.

I would agree with most of that.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on December 26, 2015, 10:56:20 PM
I didn't think about the staff thing, but that's completely true! That would've been so much cooler!
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on December 26, 2015, 10:57:52 PM
I didn't think about the staff thing, but that's completely true! That would've been so much cooler!
Makes sense with her too, as she uses a staff to defend herself in any case.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 26, 2015, 11:43:53 PM
@tebakutis (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31262) Welcome to the club! Now you can go and read all the spoiler posts!  ::)

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Seriously - you've set up she's a badass staff fighter, you've set up there are energy staffs that can go toe-to-toe with lightsabers, and then you go "The Force makes Rey better?" Why, Abrams, why?

Well, because that's not what they wanted to do. They advertised Finn as a storm trooper ending up doing all the light saber fights, with a girl sidekick, and then boom, every geek got all sweaty as we realised that the true force wielder is the girl, that Finn only uses the saber like because he can't get his hand on his familiar blaster.

The whole point was for her to be strong with the force. I've already written my argument in defense of her duel with Kylo. Because of all the spoilers, let me copy it here :

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Jeremy Janhs raises an excellent point in his spoiler video on the movie :
Please let's all remember that ever since Kylo fell to the dark side, Luke went in hiding. Maybe there were other force students, but what ever went down with them, it happened, what? 15 years ago probably, since Ben seems in his early thirties.
So, for 15 years he's been using his saber to throw tantrums and cut down grand fathers or people he immobilizes with the force. There are no jedis out there to oppose him. Rey just showed us she fights to survive in her daily life, while Kylo has been the only fish in his pond and is massively out of shape and training as a result.
Plus he's wounded, in turmoil, and hitting himself to increase his pain to stay strong in the dark side.
And, Snokes says he needs to finish Kylo's training. So what? He's truly just been a menacing puppet all this time, not even properly trained!

Got to add that in my opinion, the fight scene with Rey was mostly to prove that she knows how to fight, not that she is a staff master. What kind of martial training could she have had? She's probably rough in every field, better at the staff but also competent with shorter weapons. Why not?
What if the Force helps her read his moves before they come?

Anyway, Rey with a green double bladed light staff would be awesome, I'm totally buying into that.

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Not sure how we were supposed to care about the planets that blew up either.

Well, did you ever care about Leia's planet that got blown up? We learnt its name at the same time we learnt it'd be destroyed, and then it promptly exploded, without us ever seeing hair or hide from its inhabitants.
I guess it's more a matter of making you feel what is at stake than anything else?

But there is no arguing that StarKiller base is pushing the realms of science a bit far.
While I'm ready to suspend disbelief long enough to swallow that they have the technology to do it, I'm indeed perturbed by the way they bend the laws of physics without explanation. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: tebakutis on December 27, 2015, 03:30:20 AM
More spoilers below!

Anyway, Rey with a green double bladed light staff would be awesome, I'm totally buying into that.

I can totally see your point and I agree that the way they did it (the Force gives Rey the ability to outfight Kylo) could be plausible. I just didn't like it, subjectively. It's a personal preference, but wherever possible, I like my heroes/villains to succeed or fail based on their own merits.

So for me, Rey figuring out to switch to fighting Kylo with a staff (where she has experience) and beating him by being clever, would have been much more satisfying than Rey being outfought, and only winning with the Force shows up at the last moment to let her fight much better.

In the former case, it would have been Rey's choice to train with a staff and decision to change tactics that would have saved her. A smart, savvy move by a character we've already seen thinks quickly on her feet. It would feel "earned" because we'd set up that she has years of experience fighting with a staff, as seen when she beat up those thugs on Jakku, and then we pay it off in the final fight.

In the latter case, it's "the Force" (in this case, a deux ex machina) that lets Rey win. So she didn't really win the fight with Kylo - the Force won it for her. Sure, you can argue that the fact that she is so sensitive in the Force is the only reason it could help her fight, but still! Getting badass saberfighting skills through the Force at the last minute felt weak by comparison. Rey shouldn't have needed a last minute Force infusion to beat Kylo. She could have done it on her own merits.

Moreover, she already used "sudden Force sensitivity" get out of jail free card earlier in the movie. She mind controls the guard into freeing her, even though she's never done that before. That shows she's extraordinarily force sensitive, but it kind of plays that out. The Force teaching her to do something she'd never done and letting her get out of a jam once was fine. But twice? That bugged me.

But anyway, this is all subjective :)

Well, did you ever care about Leia's planet that got blown up? We learnt its name at the same time we learnt it'd be destroyed, and then it promptly exploded, without us ever seeing hair or hide from its inhabitants.
I guess it's more a matter of making you feel what is at stake than anything else?

I think in the case of Star Wars, I'd never seen a planet get blown up before. It was new and fresh, and shocking since it just such a crazy idea. Plus, we saw Leia (a character we'd gotten to know up to that point) and knew that was HER planet. We saw her facial expressions, her intake of breath, as the Empire points a laser at the planet and blows it up. So you had a double whammy - we see Leia lose everyone she's ever known (parents, siblings, friends, her planet), AND we'd never seen a planet blown up before.

Blowing up five planets in The Force Awakens didn't impress me because it, like Starkiller Base, was something I'd seen before. So we blew up one planet last time. Well, now we blew up five! It just didn't have the same impact for me, because I'd seen it before. Plus, we don't have the personal stake. There's no shot of a single person, who has relatives or friends on those planets, being absolutely devastated by their destruction.

So, I think that's why the destruction of Alderaan in Star Wars works for me (because novelty, and Leia's personal stakes) and why the destruction of the whole system in Force Awakens doesn't (no personal stakes, feels like they just blew up five planets in a failed attempt to regain the shock value of blowing up one).

But it's definitely cool to read how everyone takes everything, and everyone likes different stuff. I've hit that myself recently (eight of my advance readers loved my second book, but the first two reviewers to review it were meh) so I totally sympathize with anyone trying to write a sequel. You're never going to please EVERYONE, nor should you expect too. So if other people liked these elements, I don't think they're wrong. I'm just pointing out why they didn't work for me, on a subjective level.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 27, 2015, 04:31:43 AM
Okay, gotta agree with you, but I want to clear one thing :

The stormtrooper isn't wielding a staff but a sort of electro tonfa :

http://cdn3.whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/ZNYCsSjW.gif

Which I find ironic since it's the police's choice weapon in France. All serious enforcers have tonfas.
Tonfa technique, still isn't staff technique, so even if she'd have one, it'd still wouldn't be her training choice weapon. It would actually be worse, snce you can wield a staff like a sword if it's short enough, but never like a tonfa.
The SW universe seems to have what you hope for though : http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electrostaff
Just didn't happen in this universe. And I still believe that it's for the best, since Rey will do a great Jedi, and I'd love to see her craft her own weapon.


As for the planet, you're right of course. More isn't better, and we'd already seen one planet blow up. 5 wasn't going to be 5 times better. But I guess it's kind of risky business now, since the OT already blew up a planet in one strike, what is left to the baddies of the future? Anti matter and Black holes A la Star Trek? What can be worse than blowing a whole planet up, or a whole system up?
At least now that this is out of the way, I guess they'll be forced into a creative corner. They just can't blow any more planets in episode 8.
And the new director really surprised me by his movie Looper. Very much after my own heart, the ending and idea behind it. If he gets good people on the visuals, I'll expect good things of him
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Yora on December 27, 2015, 03:17:57 PM
people talk about Kylo being the best "dark side" example as you see his emotion throughout. But I found him frustrating.  He had no redeeming values (for me, at least) and the only thing he did that elevated him above a petulant child was killing Han Solo (which I guess at least proves they aren't going to try to "redeem" him, thank goodness). The Star Wars universe in general is WAAY too lenient about past crimes.
Someone made him a mean twitter account (https://twitter.com/KyloR3n).  :D

I've been talking some more about the movie with my parents yesterday and we're pretty much in agreement that the movie feels like a prologue. It introduces all the basics to people who don't know Star Wars and (hopefully) makes you interested in jumping into the main story.
I think it actually would make an amazing pilot episode for a TV show. For that it would be almost perfect. But this is a movie.  :-\
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: tebakutis on December 27, 2015, 07:53:16 PM
Someone made him a mean twitter account (https://twitter.com/KyloR3n).  :D

I <3 Emo Kylo Ren's Twitter. It made me genuinely laugh more than a couple of times.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 28, 2015, 11:02:16 AM
Best quote in the whole movie :

(http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aOVyZbE_460s_v1.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Overlord on December 29, 2015, 09:50:57 PM
The bad first:

Initially I really struggled with the casting and acting... Everything seemed so silly and over-the-top, but by about 30 minutes in I fell into the grove and have to admit that they nailed the tone of the original (dorky, over the top but visually a real treat). Neither of the new main characters were overly likeable for me, perhaps because we didn't know enough about the horrors Finn went through and Rae's origins were a mystery to us too - I never felt she'd lived a hard life and deserved better (although I knew it must be so). Once the story got going though I was hooked on the battles and forward momentum. Although I wasn't attracted to the characters, specifically, I bought into the (ridiculous and implausible - again, acceptably Star Wars - esque) overall story of the struggling resistance trying to stop the first order from rising to become the new empire...

That was until Kyo Ren took his mask off, I'm not sure about the actor (Driver) at all - perhaps it was the scripting, but I never saw him as a threat or very dangerous. He didn't seem volatile enough to me... I'd kept away from ALL press prior to seeing the movie, but I thought it was going to be Cumberbatch playing Kyo Ren and I feel he'd have done a better job. I'm not really sure they needed to remove his mask so early and humanise him the way they did before giving us a bit more info about the atrocities he has already committed.

In addition to that, he is a Jedi who destroyed Luke's school and yet he couldn't defeat a complete novice to fighting and an untrained Jedi... I know he was injured, but yeah.

I think Harrison Ford needed to be in this movie and 100% agree with the person above that it had to be a one time thing. Again, I didn't feel the death was as powerful as it could have been with the right actor.

The good:

It was Star Wars. That's important. it wasn't someone grabbing a franchise and trying to modernise it massively, make it 'grim' and 'gritty' or 'for the family'. It felt like a true continuation of the original three movies and that is going above and beyond what I expected.

The movie flew by. I've heard people say the pacing was poor, but I never really felt that. Despite uncertainty about the characters, the actual overlying storyline and the huge amount of action and visuals meant that it flew by. I wasn't ready for it to end.

There is a lot of promise for the next film. I feel that the main enemy (whoever it may be) will need to be much darker and, if this happens, it will make it much easier to get behind the protagonists who by that time I imagine will be more trained.

The story of Luke's school means that we'll probably see some books about it in the near future and I'm enjoying my Star Wars fiction at the moment (I know there is a Jedi Academy series, but guessing that'll now be classed as 'Legends of Star Wars' rather than official cannon).
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Overlord on December 29, 2015, 10:07:22 PM
I think this - massively spoiler filled - article should be renamed 'the only 5 things annoying about Star Wars VII'

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html)

It has all the things that I struggled with (and a few more on top that didn't bother me as much).
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Overlord on December 29, 2015, 10:16:01 PM
Just spotted this, might help with a few of my issues :)

Star Wars: Before The Awakening

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Star-Wars-Before-Awakening-Awakens/dp/1405280514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451427290&sr=8-1&keywords=Before+the+Awakening (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Star-Wars-Before-Awakening-Awakens/dp/1405280514/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451427290&sr=8-1&keywords=Before+the+Awakening)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on December 29, 2015, 10:42:44 PM
I think this - massively spoiler filled - article should be renamed 'the only 5 things annoying about Star Wars VII'

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html)

It has all the things that I struggled with (and a few more on top that didn't bother me as much).
I agree with 3 out of 5. I didn't have many problems with the dialogue. Nothing was obvious to me. There were some tough moments, but overall it was fine.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Doctor_Chill on December 29, 2015, 10:59:31 PM
I think this - massively spoiler filled - article should be renamed 'the only 5 things annoying about Star Wars VII'

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html)

It has all the things that I struggled with (and a few more on top that didn't bother me as much).

Pretty much hit the nail on the head for me, especially number 2. As with number 4, and your suggestion above, I think Cumberbatch would've cemented Kylo Ren as up there with Darth Vader, especially for the many reasons Nora and Raptori have laid out as it concerns his fantastic characterization (for a Star Wars movie anyway  ;)).
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Overlord on December 30, 2015, 07:24:02 AM
I think this - massively spoiler filled - article should be renamed 'the only 5 things annoying about Star Wars VII'

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html)

It has all the things that I struggled with (and a few more on top that didn't bother me as much).
I agree with 3 out of 5. I didn't have many problems with the dialogue. Nothing was obvious to me. There were some tough moments, but overall it was fine.

Same here. I only had major issues with 2 and 4. I feel 3 was an issue, but an inevitable one... if we are going to set the story after the events of the original trilogy and continue down that path then you need to allow those characters to be there to hand over the torch.

Number 1, yes, but I didn't have an issue with it... that's Star Wars, Star Trek and any other movie from that cheesy Sci-Fi Action era and without those kind of jokes creating that kind of atmosphere you'd end up with Episode 2!

Number 5 I didn't mind too much. Although parts of the storyline were similar, they didn't ruin the film or even bring it down (in my opinion).
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Rukaio_Alter on December 30, 2015, 08:58:10 AM
I think this - massively spoiler filled - article should be renamed 'the only 5 things annoying about Star Wars VII'

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html)

It has all the things that I struggled with (and a few more on top that didn't bother me as much).
I agree with 3 out of 5. I didn't have many problems with the dialogue. Nothing was obvious to me. There were some tough moments, but overall it was fine.

Same here. I only had major issues with 2 and 4. I feel 3 was an issue, but an inevitable one... if we are going to set the story after the events of the original trilogy and continue down that path then you need to allow those characters to be there to hand over the torch.

Number 1, yes, but I didn't have an issue with it... that's Star Wars, Star Trek and any other movie from that cheesy Sci-Fi Action era and without those kind of jokes creating that kind of atmosphere you'd end up with Episode 2!

Number 5 I didn't mind too much. Although parts of the storyline were similar, they didn't ruin the film or even bring it down (in my opinion).
You're both higher than me since I didn't have a problem with any of those. The closest I came to agreeing was with 2 but, on reflection, I ultimately disagree for reasons spoilered below.

I think having Kylo remove his mask for the first time on the bridge would've changed the emotional focus of the scene from 'Han and Kylo's father/son reunion' to 'Holy crap, Kylo took off his mask'. And that would've undermined the former somewhat which, considering what happened next, is not something you want happening. Kylo taking off his mask on that bridge still means something to the audience. Making that the first reveal of his face makes the moment mean something else. Revealing his face early simply stops the audience from being distracted and keeps the focus of the scene on what it needs to be. Han and Kylo's relationship.

Especially disagree with 4 though which misses the entire freaking point of Kylo Ren's character and what, to me, made him fairly intriguing. He's not supposed to be Darth Vader, a cold calculating badass, he's supposed to be a confused, insecure kid desperately trying to be Darth Vader out of a twisted sense of idolisation. And Adam Driver's casting perfectly embodies that and his looks help shows the gap between the masked Sith Lord badass he's desperately trying to be and the baby-faced, immature kid he actually is. Honestly, it all made me far more interested in his character than if he'd simply been Darth Vader 2.0 and I'm genuinely interested to see where they take his character in the next movies.

1 and 3 are completely subjective. Also we tried having it all glum and jokeless in Star Wars before. That's how we got the prequels. (Although that admittedly had more to do with Lucas's inability to write dialogue).

As for 5, who cares that it has a lot of similar story beats to the first film? Almost every story is similar to something else if you step back far enough. All that matters is the way you actually execute the story. And I thought they did an excellent job. Maybe not perfect, I did have some issues with the third act, but still very good.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Overlord on December 30, 2015, 10:11:17 AM
I think this - massively spoiler filled - article should be renamed 'the only 5 things annoying about Star Wars VII'

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html (https://www.yahoo.com/tech/5-most-annoying-things-star-wars-force-awakens-142527410.html)

It has all the things that I struggled with (and a few more on top that didn't bother me as much).
I agree with 3 out of 5. I didn't have many problems with the dialogue. Nothing was obvious to me. There were some tough moments, but overall it was fine.

Same here. I only had major issues with 2 and 4. I feel 3 was an issue, but an inevitable one... if we are going to set the story after the events of the original trilogy and continue down that path then you need to allow those characters to be there to hand over the torch.

Number 1, yes, but I didn't have an issue with it... that's Star Wars, Star Trek and any other movie from that cheesy Sci-Fi Action era and without those kind of jokes creating that kind of atmosphere you'd end up with Episode 2!

Number 5 I didn't mind too much. Although parts of the storyline were similar, they didn't ruin the film or even bring it down (in my opinion).
You're both higher than me since I didn't have a problem with any of those. The closest I came to agreeing was with 2 but, on reflection, I ultimately disagree for reasons spoilered below.

I think having Kylo remove his mask for the first time on the bridge would've changed the emotional focus of the scene from 'Han and Kylo's father/son reunion' to 'Holy crap, Kylo took off his mask'. And that would've undermined the former somewhat which, considering what happened next, is not something you want happening. Kylo taking off his mask on that bridge still means something to the audience. Making that the first reveal of his face makes the moment mean something else. Revealing his face early simply stops the audience from being distracted and keeps the focus of the scene on what it needs to be. Han and Kylo's relationship.

Especially disagree with 4 though which misses the entire freaking point of Kylo Ren's character and what, to me, made him fairly intriguing. He's not supposed to be Darth Vader, a cold calculating badass, he's supposed to be a confused, insecure kid desperately trying to be Darth Vader out of a twisted sense of idolisation. And Adam Driver's casting perfectly embodies that and his looks help shows the gap between the masked Sith Lord badass he's desperately trying to be and the baby-faced, immature kid he actually is. Honestly, it all made me far more interested in his character than if he'd simply been Darth Vader 2.0 and I'm genuinely interested to see where they take his character in the next movies.

1 and 3 are completely subjective. Also we tried having it all glum and jokeless in Star Wars before. That's how we got the prequels. (Although that admittedly had more to do with Lucas's inability to write dialogue).

As for 5, who cares that it has a lot of similar story beats to the first film? Almost every story is similar to something else if you step back far enough. All that matters is the way you actually execute the story. And I thought they did an excellent job. Maybe not perfect, I did have some issues with the third act, but still very good.

It wasn't the 'bad ass' thing for me. I totally understand they wanted a softer, more conflicted 'villain' (who is borderline that). He just didn't seem dangerous or volatile enough in my eyes. The guy destroyed the Jedi School Luke was building and killed his father, and yet I didn't get that impressive/scary/shocking swing of emotions you'd expect from that kind of character.

I know he is a very different villain... but look at Heath Ledger's Joker. That wild swing of emotion and instability was terrifying... I know this is a very different film and it is unfair to compare Driver to one of the most perfectly acted roles of my lifetime, but I do feel as though a different actor could have done a better job. Again though, appreciation for an actor portraying a role is a very personal thing. Although I didn't appreciate Driver, I fully understand others may (and, indeed, did) find him brilliant and perfectly suited for the role.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 30, 2015, 10:35:28 AM
Mmmh. But it doesn't compare really. Joker and Kylo are both villains, but one plays on insanity, builds his own character around a real joker's spooky image.
That's not remotely close to what kylo is supposed to be. That's not what Heath would be playing, if he were playing the role...

Overall I think the villainy was somewhat spread with Hux as well, with his own fanatic side.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Overlord on December 30, 2015, 11:12:06 AM
Mmmh. But it doesn't compare really. Joker and Kylo are both villains, but one plays on insanity, builds his own character around a real joker's spooky image.
That's not remotely close to what kylo is supposed to be. That's not what Heath would be playing, if he were playing the role...

Overall I think the villainy was somewhat spread with Hux as well, with his own fanatic side.

Of course, I didn't mean I wanted a Joker-like Kylo, I just meant that he never had the kind of volatile nature that I'd presume one would need to kill his friends, teacher and father. My example of the Joker was that ability to change from almost normal to completely unreasonable in a second. Driver's not showing this meant I struggled to find his character believable or threatening (enhanced by the fact he got beaten by two characters who had never used the force or a lightsaber before). As an example: the bit where he was talking to Vader's mask about the light side; he didn't seem distraught enough or unsure enough for me... he was never going to choose light. Or when he killed Han, he was always going to kill him... never a question.

I understand the argument people who appreciated the performance and scripting are making and accept it: Kylo is not meant to be Darth Vader or even a really bad dude. He is not meant to be incredibly skilled or seem unbeatable. He is meant to seem young, vulnerable, foolish and a maker of bad choices. I guess Driver and I just don't click as actor and member of the audience :P I'm glad other people appreciate him though :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Rukaio_Alter on December 30, 2015, 12:29:28 PM
Mmmh. But it doesn't compare really. Joker and Kylo are both villains, but one plays on insanity, builds his own character around a real joker's spooky image.
That's not remotely close to what kylo is supposed to be. That's not what Heath would be playing, if he were playing the role...

Overall I think the villainy was somewhat spread with Hux as well, with his own fanatic side.

Of course, I didn't mean I wanted a Joker-like Kylo, I just meant that he never had the kind of volatile nature that I'd presume one would need to kill his friends, teacher and father. My example of the Joker was that ability to change from almost normal to completely unreasonable in a second. Driver's not showing this meant I struggled to find his character believable or threatening (enhanced by the fact he got beaten by two characters who had never used the force or a lightsaber before). As an example: the bit where he was talking to Vader's mask about the light side; he didn't seem distraught enough or unsure enough for me... he was never going to choose light. Or when he killed Han, he was always going to kill him... never a question.

I understand the argument people who appreciated the performance and scripting are making and accept it: Kylo is not meant to be Darth Vader or even a really bad dude. He is not meant to be incredibly skilled or seem unbeatable. He is meant to seem young, vulnerable, foolish and a maker of bad choices. I guess Driver and I just don't click as actor and member of the audience :P I'm glad other people appreciate him though :)
I thought they got Kylo's volatile nature across very well with the scene where he goes berserk with his lightsaber on that computer console. That kind of temper more than convinced me the character was dangerous. Not in the typical cold, calculating Darth Vader way, but in the wild emotional, not-fully-in-control-of-himself way. Also I don't think the Joker comparisons really work because, while the Joker could switch from normal to unreasonable on a dime, he was always in control and assured of himself no matter which way he turned. His actions made sense to his messed up internal sense of values. Kylo Ren is the complete opposite. He's not assured of himself. He has serious doubts and issues and isn't always in control of his emotions, no matter how hard he tries to be.

Also, about the lightsaber fight, give the guy some credit, considering a) he was fairly emotionally unstable after killing his father and b) he'd been shot in the stomach by Chewbacca. That would put a damper on anyone's game. And he still managed to utterly school Finn and nearly beat Rey before she had her big 'Force' moment.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Overlord on December 30, 2015, 12:49:24 PM
Mmmh. But it doesn't compare really. Joker and Kylo are both villains, but one plays on insanity, builds his own character around a real joker's spooky image.
That's not remotely close to what kylo is supposed to be. That's not what Heath would be playing, if he were playing the role...

Overall I think the villainy was somewhat spread with Hux as well, with his own fanatic side.

Of course, I didn't mean I wanted a Joker-like Kylo, I just meant that he never had the kind of volatile nature that I'd presume one would need to kill his friends, teacher and father. My example of the Joker was that ability to change from almost normal to completely unreasonable in a second. Driver's not showing this meant I struggled to find his character believable or threatening (enhanced by the fact he got beaten by two characters who had never used the force or a lightsaber before). As an example: the bit where he was talking to Vader's mask about the light side; he didn't seem distraught enough or unsure enough for me... he was never going to choose light. Or when he killed Han, he was always going to kill him... never a question.

I understand the argument people who appreciated the performance and scripting are making and accept it: Kylo is not meant to be Darth Vader or even a really bad dude. He is not meant to be incredibly skilled or seem unbeatable. He is meant to seem young, vulnerable, foolish and a maker of bad choices. I guess Driver and I just don't click as actor and member of the audience :P I'm glad other people appreciate him though :)
I thought they got Kylo's volatile nature across very well with the scene where he goes berserk with his lightsaber on that computer console. That kind of temper more than convinced me the character was dangerous. Not in the typical cold, calculating Darth Vader way, but in the wild emotional, not-fully-in-control-of-himself way. Also I don't think the Joker comparisons really work because, while the Joker could switch from normal to unreasonable on a dime, he was always in control and assured of himself no matter which way he turned. His actions made sense to his messed up internal sense of values. Kylo Ren is the complete opposite. He's not assured of himself. He has serious doubts and issues and isn't always in control of his emotions, no matter how hard he tries to be.

Also, about the lightsaber fight, give the guy some credit, considering a) he was fairly emotionally unstable after killing his father and b) he'd been shot in the stomach by Chewbacca. That would put a damper on anyone's game. And he still managed to utterly school Finn and nearly beat Rey before she had her big 'Force' moment.

Again, it is more the impact of that change I felt absent with Driver - not the change itself. That same impact could have been achieved between unassured and frustrated youth to out of control and angry. In fact, you say you felt something like that when he smashed up the console. I wasn't really hit by that, so it probably is as simple as me just not liking the actor, which is a preference thing. I just didn't connect with him as an actor, despite seeing what the script and director was trying to do.

I understand the issues that would bring down his performance, but he still became the only person in history to struggle one on one with a Storm Trooper :P I can't remember it fully, but didn't Han and Luke ambush two Stormtroopers and steal their clothes within about 10 seconds in episode 4? (Can't remember if it was hand to hand or at gunpoint). That wasn't a huge issue, I was just pointing out that he never seemed fearsome to me through volatility (likely due to my being unimpressed with the actor and, therefore, taste) or skill-level (probably purposeful by the writers and directors),
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on December 30, 2015, 01:44:18 PM
Mmmh. But it doesn't compare really. Joker and Kylo are both villains, but one plays on insanity, builds his own character around a real joker's spooky image.
That's not remotely close to what kylo is supposed to be. That's not what Heath would be playing, if he were playing the role...

Overall I think the villainy was somewhat spread with Hux as well, with his own fanatic side.

Of course, I didn't mean I wanted a Joker-like Kylo, I just meant that he never had the kind of volatile nature that I'd presume one would need to kill his friends, teacher and father. My example of the Joker was that ability to change from almost normal to completely unreasonable in a second. Driver's not showing this meant I struggled to find his character believable or threatening (enhanced by the fact he got beaten by two characters who had never used the force or a lightsaber before). As an example: the bit where he was talking to Vader's mask about the light side; he didn't seem distraught enough or unsure enough for me... he was never going to choose light. Or when he killed Han, he was always going to kill him... never a question.

I understand the argument people who appreciated the performance and scripting are making and accept it: Kylo is not meant to be Darth Vader or even a really bad dude. He is not meant to be incredibly skilled or seem unbeatable. He is meant to seem young, vulnerable, foolish and a maker of bad choices. I guess Driver and I just don't click as actor and member of the audience :P I'm glad other people appreciate him though :)
I thought they got Kylo's volatile nature across very well with the scene where he goes berserk with his lightsaber on that computer console. That kind of temper more than convinced me the character was dangerous. Not in the typical cold, calculating Darth Vader way, but in the wild emotional, not-fully-in-control-of-himself way. Also I don't think the Joker comparisons really work because, while the Joker could switch from normal to unreasonable on a dime, he was always in control and assured of himself no matter which way he turned. His actions made sense to his messed up internal sense of values. Kylo Ren is the complete opposite. He's not assured of himself. He has serious doubts and issues and isn't always in control of his emotions, no matter how hard he tries to be.

Also, about the lightsaber fight, give the guy some credit, considering a) he was fairly emotionally unstable after killing his father and b) he'd been shot in the stomach by Chewbacca. That would put a damper on anyone's game. And he still managed to utterly school Finn and nearly beat Rey before she had her big 'Force' moment.

Again, it is more the impact of that change I felt absent with Driver - not the change itself. That same impact could have been achieved between unassured and frustrated youth to out of control and angry. In fact, you say you felt something like that when he smashed up the console. I wasn't really hit by that, so it probably is as simple as me just not liking the actor, which is a preference thing. I just didn't connect with him as an actor, despite seeing what the script and director was trying to do.

I understand the issues that would bring down his performance, but he still became the only person in history to struggle one on one with a Storm Trooper :P Most of them end up dead pretty quick when running into someone with the force (or Han)!

Well... We wrote a lot in defense of the fight between Kylo and Finn then Rey. I still believe it's not as you see it. Kylo (injured, bleeding, struggling to stick to the dark side) makes fancy saber moves like he's showing off and warming up, then corners Finn, burns him up a bit, like a sadist wanting to make him cry, but the second Finn scratches him, he turns around and pretty much rips his spine off.
Kylo was a cat playing with his mouse then.
After that, we all defended Rey... I mean, she was shown as being fully able to fend off two attackers at once, she obviously knows how to fight. Again, we said Kylo has no experience dueling.
Why would he? The only other person who would indulge him in saber duels is Luke, in hiding. For at least 10 years Kylo used his saber on old men, force-paralized people and consoles. Rey is also probably way more fit.
I only wish she hadn't taken such a heavy blow, being thrown on that tree, and then acting like she never even fainted, it was a bit much.

I still find this duel believable.

As for Kylo, I did not feel him as the type of character that was meant to be volatile -besides his temper tantrums.
Ultimately he is filled with self loathing and uncertainties, even probably well aware of being used.
What I found interesting and ironic with him, is how he accuses the resistance of being traitors, and being so uptight about it, while, when you consider it, he was a bloody traitor to his master, his family, ect.
I'm really pleased with Driver. I actually got pulled out from the movie on the first time I saw the bridge scene, I was so stunned by his quivering chin. I even wondered if he wouldn't really give his saber away (I'm a very good public type of person).
So while his temper is volatile, I think the forces that move through him move more slowly and ooze off his play in a more subtle way than with other characters.

I mean, did anyone ever wondered about the inner struggles of other SW villains? What was the name of the one who killed Qui Gon again?

By the by, if anyone is interested in speculation, the latest I've heard is a theory on Rey being a Kenobi. Grand-daughter to our Ben.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Overlord on December 30, 2015, 01:52:17 PM
Mmmh. But it doesn't compare really. Joker and Kylo are both villains, but one plays on insanity, builds his own character around a real joker's spooky image.
That's not remotely close to what kylo is supposed to be. That's not what Heath would be playing, if he were playing the role...

Overall I think the villainy was somewhat spread with Hux as well, with his own fanatic side.

Of course, I didn't mean I wanted a Joker-like Kylo, I just meant that he never had the kind of volatile nature that I'd presume one would need to kill his friends, teacher and father. My example of the Joker was that ability to change from almost normal to completely unreasonable in a second. Driver's not showing this meant I struggled to find his character believable or threatening (enhanced by the fact he got beaten by two characters who had never used the force or a lightsaber before). As an example: the bit where he was talking to Vader's mask about the light side; he didn't seem distraught enough or unsure enough for me... he was never going to choose light. Or when he killed Han, he was always going to kill him... never a question.

I understand the argument people who appreciated the performance and scripting are making and accept it: Kylo is not meant to be Darth Vader or even a really bad dude. He is not meant to be incredibly skilled or seem unbeatable. He is meant to seem young, vulnerable, foolish and a maker of bad choices. I guess Driver and I just don't click as actor and member of the audience :P I'm glad other people appreciate him though :)
I thought they got Kylo's volatile nature across very well with the scene where he goes berserk with his lightsaber on that computer console. That kind of temper more than convinced me the character was dangerous. Not in the typical cold, calculating Darth Vader way, but in the wild emotional, not-fully-in-control-of-himself way. Also I don't think the Joker comparisons really work because, while the Joker could switch from normal to unreasonable on a dime, he was always in control and assured of himself no matter which way he turned. His actions made sense to his messed up internal sense of values. Kylo Ren is the complete opposite. He's not assured of himself. He has serious doubts and issues and isn't always in control of his emotions, no matter how hard he tries to be.

Also, about the lightsaber fight, give the guy some credit, considering a) he was fairly emotionally unstable after killing his father and b) he'd been shot in the stomach by Chewbacca. That would put a damper on anyone's game. And he still managed to utterly school Finn and nearly beat Rey before she had her big 'Force' moment.

Again, it is more the impact of that change I felt absent with Driver - not the change itself. That same impact could have been achieved between unassured and frustrated youth to out of control and angry. In fact, you say you felt something like that when he smashed up the console. I wasn't really hit by that, so it probably is as simple as me just not liking the actor, which is a preference thing. I just didn't connect with him as an actor, despite seeing what the script and director was trying to do.

I understand the issues that would bring down his performance, but he still became the only person in history to struggle one on one with a Storm Trooper :P Most of them end up dead pretty quick when running into someone with the force (or Han)!

Well... We wrote a lot in defense of the fight between Kylo and Finn then Rey. I still believe it's not as you see it. Kylo (injured, bleeding, struggling to stick to the dark side) makes fancy saber moves like he's showing off and warming up, then corners Finn, burns him up a bit, like a sadist wanting to make him cry, but the second Finn scratches him, he turns around and pretty much rips his spine off.
Kylo was a cat playing with his mouse then.
After that, we all defended Rey... I mean, she was shown as being fully able to fend off two attackers at once, she obviously knows how to fight. Again, we said Kylo has no experience dueling.
Why would he? The only other person who would indulge him in saber duels is Luke, in hiding. For at least 10 years Kylo used his saber on old men, force-paralized people and consoles. Rey is also probably way more fit.
I only wish she hadn't taken such a heavy blow, being thrown on that tree, and then acting like she never even fainted, it was a bit much.

I still find this duel believable.

As for Kylo, I did not feel him as the type of character that was meant to be volatile -besides his temper tantrums.
Ultimately he is filled with self loathing and uncertainties, even probably well aware of being used.
What I found interesting and ironic with him, is how he accuses the resistance of being traitors, and being so uptight about it, while, when you consider it, he was a bloody traitor to his master, his family, ect.
I'm really pleased with Driver. I actually got pulled out from the movie on the first time I saw the bridge scene, I was so stunned by his quivering chin. I even wondered if he wouldn't really give his saber away (I'm a very good public type of person).
So while his temper is volatile, I think the forces that move through him move more slowly and ooze off his play in a more subtle way than with other characters.

I mean, did anyone ever wondered about the inner struggles of other SW villains? What was the name of the one who killed Qui Gon again?

By the by, if anyone is interested in speculation, the latest I've heard is a theory on Rey being a Kenobi. Grand-daughter to our Ben.

It's actually becoming much more of an issue that I saw it as ;) I thought it was a great film, I just didn't love the actor's portrayal of Kylo Ren. That's just a preference thing, the more I explain my thoughts the more it sounds as if I hated the movie or thought it was the worst casting decision since Clooney played Batman - nothing like that. Just felt a different actor could have potentially done a better job.

I've seen it suggested that she was at the school when Ren slaughtered everyone, but you'd think he'd show a bit more recognition if that was the case. I like the idea of her being Ben's daughter.

As of 2016 this discussion can go on without spoiler tags, because this is getting crazy ;) No one is going to come in here without having seen the movie anyway, you'd hope :P
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on December 30, 2015, 02:59:18 PM
personally, i'm more aligned with rukaio.

1) cheesy jokes?  totally subjective.  the original trilogy had lots of cheese.  i like cheese.

2) copy-paste exactly what rukaio said.

3) this is the one on the list i can get behind.  it seemed to me like carrie and harrison hated each other.  zero chemistry.  in fact, han solo was pretty annoying the whole movie.  all of the 'jerk' with none of the 'charm'.  especially when you go back and watch episode 4 immediately afterwards.

4) no, no, no.  i LOVED kylo ren as a character.  i loved adam driver's portrayal of him.  he and rey were my two favorite characters in the movie.  cumberbatch would have brought too much dryness to the character where driver had that sticky, unpredictable emo thing going on.  it was awesome.  seeing it the second time?  even more awesome.

5) same plot?  that's stupid and confuses plot with plot elements.  afterall, episode 4 was totally a movie about a scavenger who gets tangled up with a former storm trooper before she gets captured by the badguys and discovers her latent force powers and defeats the main badguy who's a force apprentice himself.  destroying the super-weapon?  sub-plot.  rey's plot line was escaping captivity.  sure, they're the same plot if you bake it down to a dozen words.  those twelve words will also the same plot as every hero's journey ever penned.  http://www.thewritersjourney.com/hero's_journey.htm

and don't get me started on the whole "rey is a mary sue" thing.

Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on December 30, 2015, 08:19:33 PM
I think I'm seeing Overlord's point. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
He wasn't a villain that I expected. Kind of like this. Okay, we hear about how he betrayed Luke and killed an entire Jedi school and all that. I've seen that happen already, and it sucks, but I didn't know any of those guys. okay, he blew up an entire star system which we had no emotional connection to. okay, he killed Han Solo, but we've all seen Game of Thrones and saw that one coming, especially with the similar plot structure to A New Hope.
Point is, there's no hate for him in my mind. Even if I understand a villain's reasons, I still should be able to hate them. But he hasn't done anything to provoke an emotional reaction from the audience. He's just... Well... A confused kid thrust into a situation that he doesn't fully understand, and that we don't understand either. Let's face it. Pretty much all of what we've said here is speculation. Star Wars doesn't explain why Kylo betrayed Luke, what the deal with Rey is, nothing. And, while that's great when setting up a series, it makes it hard to hate him.
And when you mask a villain and give him the Vater feel, that's what I expect. If you don't want me to expect a villain I should hate, then why bother with the mask? Let me see him first without it, and then have him put it on when he's trying to look intimidating. He's just not... Scary.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Overlord on December 30, 2015, 08:29:38 PM
I think I'm seeing Overlord's point. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
He wasn't a villain that I expected. Kind of like this. Okay, we hear about how he betrayed Luke and killed an entire Jedi school and all that. I've seen that happen already, and it sucks, but I didn't know any of those guys. okay, he blew up an entire star system which we had no emotional connection to. okay, he killed Han Solo, but we've all seen Game of Thrones and saw that one coming, especially with the similar plot structure to A New Hope.
Point is, there's no hate for him in my mind. Even if I understand a villain's reasons, I still should be able to hate them. But he hasn't done anything to provoke an emotional reaction from the audience. He's just... Well... A confused kid thrust into a situation that he doesn't fully understand, and that we don't understand either. Let's face it. Pretty much all of what we've said here is speculation. Star Wars doesn't explain why Kylo betrayed Luke, what the deal with Rey is, nothing. And, while that's great when setting up a series, it makes it hard to hate him.
And when you mask a villain and give him the Vater feel, that's what I expect. If you don't want me to expect a villain I should hate, then why bother with the mask? Let me see him first without it, and then have him put it on when he's trying to look intimidating. He's just not... Scary.

I presume (and hope) that is going to be the focus of the second movie. I've been reading most of the new canon work and it's interesting that even the pre-Awakens stuff keeps away from Kylo's character and Luke... you'd have thought a prequel book focusing on Luke would come pretty quick, but it doesn't seem it will (they've released a schedule of upcoming titles and it doesn't seem to be in it).

I've been told the Force Awakens book is very good and fills a number of holes. It's one of the only new canon books I've not read yet, so I'll probably check that out and see if it shines some light on things :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on December 30, 2015, 11:02:51 PM
I think I'm seeing Overlord's point. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
He wasn't a villain that I expected. Kind of like this. Okay, we hear about how he betrayed Luke and killed an entire Jedi school and all that. I've seen that happen already, and it sucks, but I didn't know any of those guys. okay, he blew up an entire star system which we had no emotional connection to. okay, he killed Han Solo, but we've all seen Game of Thrones and saw that one coming, especially with the similar plot structure to A New Hope.
Point is, there's no hate for him in my mind. Even if I understand a villain's reasons, I still should be able to hate them. But he hasn't done anything to provoke an emotional reaction from the audience. He's just... Well... A confused kid thrust into a situation that he doesn't fully understand, and that we don't understand either. Let's face it. Pretty much all of what we've said here is speculation. Star Wars doesn't explain why Kylo betrayed Luke, what the deal with Rey is, nothing. And, while that's great when setting up a series, it makes it hard to hate him.
And when you mask a villain and give him the Vater feel, that's what I expect. If you don't want me to expect a villain I should hate, then why bother with the mask? Let me see him first without it, and then have him put it on when he's trying to look intimidating. He's just not... Scary.

I presume (and hope) that is going to be the focus of the second movie. I've been reading most of the new canon work and it's interesting that even the pre-Awakens stuff keeps away from Kylo's character and Luke... you'd have thought a prequel book focusing on Luke would come pretty quick, but it doesn't seem it will (they've released a schedule of upcoming titles and it doesn't seem to be in it).

I've been told the Force Awakens book is very good and fills a number of holes. It's one of the only new canon books I've not read yet, so I'll probably check that out and see if it shines some light on things :)
Most of the novelisations have filled in holes and as The Force Awakens is written by Alan Dean Foster it should be quite good. Unfortunately the hardcover isn't published until Jan 5, 2016 and is only available as a e-book at present.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Rukaio_Alter on December 31, 2015, 01:50:05 AM
I think I'm seeing Overlord's point. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
He wasn't a villain that I expected. Kind of like this. Okay, we hear about how he betrayed Luke and killed an entire Jedi school and all that. I've seen that happen already, and it sucks, but I didn't know any of those guys. okay, he blew up an entire star system which we had no emotional connection to. okay, he killed Han Solo, but we've all seen Game of Thrones and saw that one coming, especially with the similar plot structure to A New Hope.
Point is, there's no hate for him in my mind. Even if I understand a villain's reasons, I still should be able to hate them. But he hasn't done anything to provoke an emotional reaction from the audience. He's just... Well... A confused kid thrust into a situation that he doesn't fully understand, and that we don't understand either. Let's face it. Pretty much all of what we've said here is speculation. Star Wars doesn't explain why Kylo betrayed Luke, what the deal with Rey is, nothing. And, while that's great when setting up a series, it makes it hard to hate him.
And when you mask a villain and give him the Vater feel, that's what I expect. If you don't want me to expect a villain I should hate, then why bother with the mask? Let me see him first without it, and then have him put it on when he's trying to look intimidating. He's just not... Scary.
Yeah, definitely don't agree with that.

Don't forget he opened up the movie by murdering Max von Sydow's character and having an entire village massacred. It doesn't matter that we didn't get to know every single person in that village, basic human empathy should provoke an emotional response. We hate Grand Moff Tarkin in Episode IV for destroying Alderaan, even though we don't know anyone on that planet, because we all know slaughtering innocent people is bad. (And honestly, I thought the planet destroying scene worked better here than in Episode IV solely because of that one shot of the terrified inhabitants as the beam is fired towards them. Don't get me wrong, it would've worked even better if we had any idea what the Republic actually was, but I digress). And besides, Han Solo is most certainly a character we've grown an emotional attachment to. Just because a lot of us guessed where the scene was going the second he stepped onto that bridge doesn't suddenly mean we don't care when he dies.

Also, the entire point of the mask is that he's trying to mimic Vader. And indeed, the movie starts by trying to fool you into thinking he will be Vader 2.0, simply so the reveal of his true motives and personality later on comes all the more as a surprise. It's a deliberate subversion of what you're expecting of the character which, in my opinion, makes him inherently more interesting.

At this point though I think I can understand Overlord's opinion and he can understand mine. Adam Driver's performance just obviously didn't work as well for him as it did for me. Which is a shame, but there's nothing either of us can really say or do to change that.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Jmack on December 31, 2015, 11:49:22 AM
FINALLY!!!!!!!

I finally got to the most recent post on this thread after reading through all of them: spoilers, links and all.
And now that I have, I don't have the time right now to take each point and work them through. But here are my thoughts:


Overall:
> As a movie, 3 out of 4
> As re-entry to a Star Wars, 4 out of 4
It's sort of like, you did aaaaallllllll this work to make such a fantastic experience, you couldn't eliminate the really stupid things from the plot?

Characters and Performances:
> I agree with m3mnoch. I'm sort of in love with Ray. And the actress was pitch perfect.
> Finn = great fun character, super performance.
> Kylo = pretty good. Went too far on the emo side after the first removal of the helmet. It should have been him ordering the Death Star World-killer-thing-a-bobber to destroy planets, and him giving speeches to the crowd. We need the weakness, but we need the strength and horror to continue. But maybe by avoiding it, the set up for the fratricide scene is better. Not sure. Meanwhile, I had no issue with Driver's performance; had never seen him before; felt that the physical connection/similarity to Hayden was a good idea. In fact, I really liked the performance.
> X-Wing pilot dude. Yawn. What was his name? Never saw anything other than an actor speaking lines.
> Han Solo: My geeky side wins out; loved it.
> Leia: Yawn, but geeky wins again. I just rolled with it.
> Most irritating character for me? C3PO by a mile! I wish there'd been a way to leave him and R2 out of the movie entirely. They are the first trilogy, not this one.

Awesome Parts:
> Spelunking in Corellian Battleship (or whatever they're called), and the whole scavenger econoy. Awesome.
> Blood on the storm trooper's helmet. So awesome. Such a break with expectation, and perfect way to introduce Finn.
> X-wing (Yawn) Dude blowing total shit out the planet killer instead of one torpedo down one tube.
God, there are just too many awesome parts. Did I say I was out of time?

And I'm seeing it again tomorrow!
I'll add more awesome parts.

Unawesome parts:
> Total reliance on chance and reduction of geography, complete disregard for how anything would be built, operated, powered, maintained, designed, you name it.
> R2D2 wakes up! So totally WRITER INTERCEDES!. Oh! he has the star map. Problems solved.
God there are just so many stupid parts. Did I say I was out of time?
> Too much director/writer saying: "We have to make sure X happens, because people will want it." I believe this is how Ray and Leia end up hugging and Chewie is forgotten.
> And where the hell is Chewie's grief, other than he's pissed off and shoots storm troopers really well for a bit.
So much they could have chosen to get right but felt they had so many elements to cover and couldn't take the screen time from those.

And I'm seeing again tomorrow!

Did I say I love this movie?
I do, warts and all.



Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Eli_Freysson on January 02, 2016, 02:37:58 PM
I watched this the other day with my friends, and I LOVED IT!

To my joy I was able to avoid every trailer and spoiler (beyond the weird memetic bellyaching over Kylo's lightsaber) which I feel is the proper way to see a movie. I don't like thinking "Oh yeah, that badass scene is coming up". I prefer being surprised.

Much as it has been misused at times, I love the Star Wars setting for its size, colourfulness and mixture of different elements, and seeing it in the hands of talented people, working with modern technology was a real treat. I think Rey is a fantastic new character and the rest are good as well.

This may be a small thing, but I also appreciated that the desert planet isn't Tatooine. A setting this big has plenty of other backwaters.

Some spoilery points:


*I gotta say I feel TFA had the best lightsaber fights yet. They were more down-to-earth, and therefore more tense (and dignified) than the prequel wire-fu nonsense.

*We finally have a female Jedi. And, y'know, more than one female character per film.

*In my mind TFA managed to make the Force mysterious and cool again. I felt awe when Rey tapped into it while fighting Kylo.

*As for people complaining about Kylo going down to someone with no actual training, keep in mind that Kylo isn't fully trained himself, and had just been gutshot with a powerful weapon. Finn may not be a Jedi but he IS a trained soldier, and by Rey's turn Kylo's dominant arm was wounded, and Rey had been established as having decent melee skills.
It's weird how easily female characters get the Mary Sue stamp, while Batman and James Bond get a pass.

*BB-8 is fun. I generally thought of him as a little dog. The lighter thumbs-up got a big laugh in my theatre.  :)


Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Jmack on January 02, 2016, 04:39:47 PM
Saw TFA for the second time yesterday. (My new stepmother is an action movie fiend, so we organized an eight person expedition from various family members.)

Loved it more. At this point, the only things that dont work for me are everrything to do with the big planetary gun in terms of its gunness. As a Death Star one-up, I'm fine; and the whole destrcution sequence works great. But:

>We'll destroy a whole planetary system, and everyone on some other planet gets to watch, then
> We'll suck the life out of presumably the same sun in order to charge the gun
Way beyond the ridiculousness that space opera is allowed.

But I agree with Eli about the lightsaber battles and Ray's Mary Sue-ness - that is, her lack thereof.
One theory I have, and I don't care there's no real justificaiton for it  ;D, is that her turning of the mind-f$ck on Kilo allowed heer to tap into his awareness of the Force and basically jump started (of re-started) her skills.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on January 02, 2016, 05:04:37 PM
To those saying Rey isn't a mary sue: what are her character flaws? And what other character is as competent as her in as diverse a range of skills?

Not saying she's a massive problem, but as she has no flaws and is good at pretty much everything she's a mary sue to me.  :-\
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Eli_Freysson on January 02, 2016, 05:18:29 PM
To those saying Rey isn't a mary sue: what are her character flaws?

What were Luke's character flaws?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on January 02, 2016, 05:31:10 PM
To those saying Rey isn't a mary sue: what are her character flaws?

What were Luke's character flaws?
I don't think he's a brilliant character either - he's quite bland - but the main difference is that he fails, repeatedly. He has to be rescued by pretty much every other major character at least once each, and badly loses his first saber fight. In the first film, his only real strength is that he's a brilliant pilot. One of the central storylines of the OT is his growth, and the only reason that's possible is that he was fairly useless to begin with.

In comparison, Rey's skills include hand-to-hand combat (with her staff), speaking pretty much every language she encounters, enough survival skills to live on a harsh planet entirely alone, brilliant flying skills (the first time she ever flies as well), learns to use the force over the course of ten minutes (including telekinesis and mind control, both of which were meant to be very difficult), learns to wield a lightsaber within minutes... Did she encounter a single problem that she couldn't solve?

Sure, some of those could be explained in the next film (for example if Rey had been trained as a Jedi when she was young), but in the context of what we're shown in the first one I really think she's a bit over the top!  :P
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on January 02, 2016, 06:25:53 PM
To those saying Rey isn't a mary sue: what are her character flaws?

What were Luke's character flaws?
I don't think he's a brilliant character either - he's quite bland - but the main difference is that he fails, repeatedly. He has to be rescued by pretty much every other major character at least once each, and badly loses his first saber fight. In the first film, his only real strength is that he's a brilliant pilot. One of the central storylines of the OT is his growth, and the only reason that's possible is that he was fairly useless to begin with.

In comparison, Rey's skills include hand-to-hand combat (with her staff), speaking pretty much every language she encounters, enough survival skills to live on a harsh planet entirely alone, brilliant flying skills (the first time she ever flies as well), learns to use the force over the course of ten minutes (including telekinesis and mind control, both of which were meant to be very difficult), learns to wield a lightsaber within minutes... Did she encounter a single problem that she couldn't solve?

Sure, some of those could be explained in the next film (for example if Rey had been trained as a Jedi when she was young), but in the context of what we're shown in the first one I really think she's a bit over the top!  :P

anakin in episode 1:

luke in episode 4:

rey in episode 7:

she's not a mary sue.  she's a skywalker.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Rukaio_Alter on January 02, 2016, 06:35:59 PM
To those saying Rey isn't a mary sue: what are her character flaws? And what other character is as competent as her in as diverse a range of skills?

Not saying she's a massive problem, but as she has no flaws and is good at pretty much everything she's a mary sue to me.  :-\
Except Rey does have flaws. The big one, obviously, being her trusting insistence that her family will return for her (despite it being obviously clear that's not going to be the case) and the inner conflict that creates when given the chance to go off planet and do the things she's always dreamed. But even then you have subtler flaws like her occasional abrasiveness and her ignorance and naivety towards a lot of things outside of Jakku, especially compared to Finn and Han. They're not spelt out for the audience but they are there.

Also, 'brilliant flying skills'? She nearly crashed the Millenium Falcon about 5 times when she first tried it. She was barely able to outfly a mook-piloted Tie Fighter. That's hardly what I'd call brilliant. Also, the only real languages we come across that she can translate are Wookie and Droid, the latter of which most people in Star Wars seem able to understand so it's hardly that impressive. As for the 'surviving on the harsh planet', Jakku is tough but it's hardly inhospitable. Plenty of other people seem to live there just fine. I suspect it's no worse than Tattooine.

But either way, being a Mary Sue is more than being fairly good at a number of things and having no glaringly obvious flaws. And, indeed, she's no worse at that than most blockbuster heroes, very few of which get called Gary Stu's.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on January 02, 2016, 07:01:46 PM
anakin in episode 1:
  • highly competent mechanic
  • highly competent pilot
  • wins a ridiculous pod race never won by a human before
  • uses his jedi reflexes according to qui-gon: "He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait."
  • child prodigy that doesn't fail -- not even with the ladies...
luke in episode 4:
  • competent mechanic  (going to tosche station for power converters, repairing the droids, services the vaporators on the south ridge)
  • highly competent pilot  (flying what?!  his land speeder?)
  • skilled marksman (bullseying womp rats, shooting tiny door locks from across the hanger, etc.)
  • is using a ligthsaber to block blaster shots blindfolded 30 minutes into the movie.
  • gets knocked out and taken prisoner (sorta by the tusken raiders)
rey in episode 7:
  • highly competent mechanic
  • highly competent pilot
  • sucks with a blaster, but not a melee weapon (because she fights and struggles to scavenge)
  • gets knocked out and taken prisoner
  • touching the lightsaber AND the visions kylo sees in her head both point to jedi training in the past.
  • kylo ren actually shows/reminds her how to use the force (go back and watch -- when he does something, she mimics it shortly aftwards)
she's not a mary sue.  she's a skywalker.
Yup, they're all as bad as each other!  :P

Actually that's another one: doesn't she miss with the blaster once, then hit with every other shot (excepting shots at Ren)?

To those saying Rey isn't a mary sue: what are her character flaws? And what other character is as competent as her in as diverse a range of skills?

Not saying she's a massive problem, but as she has no flaws and is good at pretty much everything she's a mary sue to me.  :-\
Except Rey does have flaws. The big one, obviously, being her trusting insistence that her family will return for her (despite it being obviously clear that's not going to be the case) and the inner conflict that creates when given the chance to go off planet and do the things she's always dreamed. But even then you have subtler flaws like her occasional abrasiveness and her ignorance and naivety towards a lot of things outside of Jakku, especially compared to Finn and Han. They're not spelt out for the audience but they are there.

Also, 'brilliant flying skills'? She nearly crashed the Millenium Falcon about 5 times when she first tried it. She was barely able to outfly a mook-piloted Tie Fighter. That's hardly what I'd call brilliant. Also, the only real languages we come across that she can translate are Wookie and Droid, the latter of which most people in Star Wars seem able to understand so it's hardly that impressive. As for the 'surviving on the harsh planet', Jakku is tough but it's hardly inhospitable. Plenty of other people seem to live there just fine. I suspect it's no worse than Tattooine.

But either way, being a Mary Sue is more than being fairly good at a number of things and having no glaringly obvious flaws. And, indeed, she's no worse at that than most blockbuster heroes, very few of which get called Gary Stu's.
That's a minor flaw imo, and it has negligible impact on the plot. If anything, it's played as a positive - it felt like an obvious attempt to win the audience's affections for her. Like, say, Bella from Twilight: her "flaws" are that she's clumsy - which is meant to be endearing - and that she isn't that good at maths - which has absolutely no effect on the story. Bella's complete lack of self awareness and how people view her is also meant to be endearing, and make her seem modest and humble.

Rey nearly crashed the Falcon while she was getting the systems online, yes. It was in awful condition - she called it junk, the guns jammed, etc - yet she was just such a brilliant pilot that she won anyway. Once she was in the air, she outmaneuvered anything that came near her. She pulled some insane stunts through the belly of a downed starship. She even managed to line up Finn's sights on the final enemy while his gun is broken. How is that not brilliant flying skills? Even if you don't think they're brilliant, how can you not think it's a little ott for someone who has never flown the Falcon before?

You must have a really weird definition of Mary Sue then. For me, it's always been someone with few character flaws - and usually any notable ones have no impact on the story - who is exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas (and I'm partially quoting from TV Tropes there, so I know I'm not alone).

And yeah, she's no worse than most blockbuster heroes. I loved the film, and her being overpowered was a minor issue for me personally. That doesn't mean that she's not a MS.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Jmack on January 02, 2016, 08:10:20 PM
Ok, I'll give you Mary Sue. Just a delightful one rather than bogus boring one.  8)

On to the fight with Kylo.
Some of us were talking about the number of seconds we watched her not killing him.
I looked for that in the movie and noticed two things.

First, put yourself in character rather than audience. She doesn't know she's supposed to win. She's worried he's got enough in the tank to hurt her, so she circles, studying him for danger. And she's operating in the moment. We're aware of the tropes, etx. So we think, f! kill him already. But to her it's still movinging really really fast.

Second, she had to wait for the musical moment to resolve. I mean, there a whole leit motif section that goes in there!  :P

But seriously, the whole thing worked me on second viewing. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ArcaneArtsVelho on January 02, 2016, 09:18:28 PM
she's a skywalker.
I really hope that's not the case. I feel we have seen this whole 'is related to Luke/Vader' thing too many times.  ::)

And if that is the big revelation of episode 8? Well, I don't think I'll even really want to see episode 9 then.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nighteyes on January 02, 2016, 09:49:49 PM
I am on the fence here. I acknowledge that arguements being made that she is a Mary Sue but it also does seem to be short hand for 'THIS PERSON IS A JEDI KNIGHT!' It annoyed me a lot more in TPM when baby Annakin destroyed the Death Star ship which controlled the droid army. Now I come to think of it, TPM was also simply a NH rehash but done very very badly. TFA has much better dialogue, acting, effects and better characters.

I really really hope as well that Daisy isn't a Skywalker. Otherwise it is basically saying that the Jedis are only emerging from one limited pool of DNA. Surely it could just be that her powers showed from an early age, and her family hid her away out of fear of what her powers meant. And that could be kinda cool as means there are potentially other Jedis who have been hiden away out of fear.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on January 02, 2016, 09:54:14 PM
Surely it could just be that her powers showed from an early age, and her family hid her away out of fear of what her powers meant. And that could be kinda cool as means there are potentially other Jedis who have been hiden away out of fear.
That really would be an interesting approach. I felt it was obvious they were setting her up to be Luke's daughter (while dropping misleading hints that she might be Han/Leia's) though.  :-\
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Eli_Freysson on January 02, 2016, 11:12:49 PM
I am on the fence here. I acknowledge that arguements being made that she is a Mary Sue but it also does seem to be short hand for 'THIS PERSON IS A JEDI KNIGHT FEMALE CHARACTER

Maybe I'm overly reactionary about this, but over the years I've noticed that every. single. movie. in which a woman does something violent or adventurous WILL cause certain kinds of individuals to flock to imdb message boards shouting Mary Sue and starting threads with titles like "Let's settle this once and for all" before going into a zealous rant about why the fight scenes were unrealistic (as opposed to Sylvester Stallone's highly realistic oeuvre about titanium-boned monsters), as if they're fighting for some important cause.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: tebakutis on January 02, 2016, 11:26:59 PM
That's a minor flaw imo, and it has negligible impact on the plot. If anything, it's played as a positive - it felt like an obvious attempt to win the audience's affections for her. Like, say, Bella from Twilight: her "flaws" are that she's clumsy - which is meant to be endearing - and that she isn't that good at maths - which has absolutely no effect on the story. Bella's complete lack of self awareness and how people view her is also meant to be endearing, and make her seem modest and humble.

Rey nearly crashed the Falcon while she was getting the systems online, yes. It was in awful condition - she called it junk, the guns jammed, etc - yet she was just such a brilliant pilot that she won anyway. Once she was in the air, she outmaneuvered anything that came near her. She pulled some insane stunts through the belly of a downed starship. She even managed to line up Finn's sights on the final enemy while his gun is broken. How is that not brilliant flying skills? Even if you don't think they're brilliant, how can you not think it's a little ott for someone who has never flown the Falcon before?

You must have a really weird definition of Mary Sue then. For me, it's always been someone with few character flaws - and usually any notable ones have no impact on the story - who is exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas (and I'm partially quoting from TV Tropes there, so I know I'm not alone).

And yeah, she's no worse than most blockbuster heroes. I loved the film, and her being overpowered was a minor issue for me personally. That doesn't mean that she's not a MS.

Sorry, I have to jump in here with a defense of Rey, or at least a definition of a "Mary Sue". :) The thing is, that term (which is derogatory) has become way overused in the past few years, especially as strong, hyper-competent female characters become more common (which is good!) To sum up, hyper-competent != Mary Sue.

So, to start, the main characters/heros of movies and books have ALWAYS been hyper-competent. That's what attracts us to them. For example, from recent films with a MALE lead:


None of these characters are "Gary Stu"s (the male equivalent of a Mary Sue). They are, at worst, hyper-competent characters (more competent than the average person) and this is true of many, many lead characters in SFF media across all genres. Sure, they have flaws, but often, as mentioned, those flaws are more like strengths. Neo's flaw is his refusal to believe he's The One (not a big deal). Luke's kind of whiny. Ender gets totally depressed after he exterminates a species, etc. They remain hyper-competent throughout.

So what makes Rey different? Simply put, she's female. That does not make her a "Mary Sue". It makes her a hyper-competent protagonist, like Harry, Neo, Luke, and Ender. Now, if you want to argue that Rey's competence makes her a Mary Sue, then you must also acknowledge that Harry, Neo, Luke, and Ender are Gary Stus. Which is fine, if you want to define it that way, but I just want to point out all the lead male characters in all the media that preceded Force Awakens are at least (if not more) competent than Rey.

However, even this definition of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu is incorrect, by classical understanding. As mentioned, the term "Mary Sue" has been inflated and overused, applied to any competent female unjustly (IMO). Just to bring the term "Mary Sue" back to its origin (as in, where it originated) my understanding is that the term originated in fanfic.

Here's an example of a "Mary Sue" in a Harry Potter fanfic. This Mary Sue is written by Young Female Author.

Mary Sue goes to Hogwarts, where she is immediately befriended by Harry, Hermione, and Ron. Immediately, Mary Sue proves herself as competent (if not more so) than Harry Potter, who is suitable awed and impressed by her incredible magic power. Hermoine tries to compete, of course, but Mary Sue is also as studious as Hermione and more intelligent, meaning she bests Hermione in academics of well. Naturally, Mary Sue is also very beautiful (perhaps one of the most attractive students at Hogwarts) and her beauty, combined with her incredible magical talent and smarts, means Harry and Ron soon start competing to woo her, both captivated by her simple awesomeness.

Eventually, Voldemort shows up at Hogwarts, and though Harry, Ron, and Hermione try to defeat him, they can't. They're beaten! Then, at the last moment, Mary Sue shows up and uses her awesome powers to defeat Voldemort. Even Voldemort can't stand against her! Harry and Ron cheer her (and each ask her out) and Hermione becomes her best friend, admitting that Mary is one of the most intelligent and beautiful girls she has ever met. Dumbledore shows up and congratulates Mary Sue on saving Hogwarts.

In case you haven't guessed, Mary Sue is a surrogate for the female author of the fanfic.

THAT is a Mary Sue (or a Gary Stu, the male equivalent). A character who is better at everything than everyone (including the main cast), has literally no flaws, and is obviously the author inserting themself into the story. She is beautiful, intelligent, skilled, and looked at in admiration by everyone else in the fanfic, especially the (previous) main characters. She is an author inserting a surrogate into a fanfic so she can date Harry and Ron and befriend Hermione while saving Hogwarts from Voldemort and becoming the best student ever to attend there.

That's not hyper-competent. That's godlike. And that is a Mary Sue.

Luke, Neo, Harry, and Ender don't qualify. They're simply hypercompetent protagonists, as is Rey.

Anyway, I've rambled here, but I hope this explains why I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue. The term originated in fanfic and RP circles, and is most definitely NOT what Rey is. If she WAS a Mary Sue, she would outpilot Poe Dameron (who would fall in love with her), have Han Solo tell her she's the most amazing pilot he's ever seen and give her the Falcon, get a life debt from Chewbacca, end up leading the Resistance when Leia falters about what to do, and finally save Luke Skywalker from Kylo Ren.

Also, she isn't an surrogate for JJ Abrams. :0
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: tebakutis on January 02, 2016, 11:38:23 PM
I really really hope as well that Daisy isn't a Skywalker. Otherwise it is basically saying that the Jedis are only emerging from one limited pool of DNA. Surely it could just be that her powers showed from an early age, and her family hid her away out of fear of what her powers meant. And that could be kinda cool as means there are potentially other Jedis who have been hiden away out of fear.

There's one theory I've heard that I actually quite like. I hope it's true!

Some have theorized that Rey is not a Skywalker, as so many believe, but a Kenobi. Basically, when "Old Ben" retired to Tatooine after Order 66, he wasn't that old. Obi-Wan met a lady (or hooked up with his princess girlfriend from Clone Wars), they made love (with the Jedi Order erased, Obi-Wan was no longer bound by the Jedi code). They had a child, which they hid, probably with Obi-Wan's wife/girlfriend, rather than on Tatooine.

That child, naturally, was Rey's father (or mother), meaning that Rey is, in fact, a Kenobi. So she's got a strong Jedi bloodline, but not the Skywalker bloodline. It also opens up the Jedi descendents so not everyone is a Skywalker.

Anyway, not sure if it's true, but it'd be a nice alternative and one I'd actually like to see made true.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on January 02, 2016, 11:56:05 PM
I'm completely behind Tebakutis on the Mary Sue thing, and will add this :

Wasn't there other things that annoyed you in Rey's character?

To me she was fresh, unassuming, a bit childlike in her reactions (it's like the two sides of a coin, she's not completely disillusioned, she still hopes beyond measure and trusts quickly and seeks guidance...).

More importantly, she's all to go and help BB8, even going so far as to fail to understand Finn's point of view and actions (she obviously look like she feels betrayed) - yet minutes later she's ready to abandon BB8, the whole team she was rooting for, only because that saber unearthed things she didn't want to face.
Obviously some of it was the past, and some of it was the future (since she sees the snowy forest where she'll duel Kylo) and it truly doesn't reveal that much.

Anyway, I think Kylo's actions are what forces her to confront darker sides of herself, which is also probably why she didn't make a killing move on him.

She wavers, she's immature, in a youthful way. What I really liked was how she easily acknowledges how awesome others are (Finn's shooting) and how wrong she was (Finn saying her idea to press the switches being a mistake and she replies "huge!"). To me that's a refreshing trait, that while being positive, still helps making her human - hence not a Mary Sue.

Finally, let's all just take a moment to wonder just how many of us vocally complain about Batman being a Gary Stu...

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbk2ycKJ4C1rtvb1so1_1280.jpg)

How realistic is that character hum? Oh sure he has a couple of flaws and a dark mood. It never balanced things out enough for me, I've always disliked that specific character.

Anyway, I've read the theories about Rey being a Kenobi, and the arguments pulled from the movie are insufficient to make it solid.
But it doesn't matter. It's plausible. But I'd really like her to be a nobody. After all Luke is said to have started a Jedi School. One student doesn't make it a school, so there was more than just Kylo.
I'D love for her to be a powerful nobody that was barely 4 when Kylo went south on everyone, and was put on Jakku for safety.

As for languages, what about implants?? They have faster than light travel, why can't they get basic skin implants that allow the wearer to understand some technical languages, like droid speech?
It wouldn't even make C3PO useless, since he's meant to be a protocol droid. Even though it's never mentioned, I assume by myself that it is what is going on when someone just masters a tongue like wookie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nighteyes on January 03, 2016, 12:04:55 AM
Away from Mary Stu discussions, here is a fun question for the Fantasy Faction.  The phone rings.  It is the Lucasfilms division of Disney.  They are big fans of your writing, and would like you to pitch to write in the new Force Awakens Expanded Universe.  Which characters would you volunteer to explore?  I quite fancy writing about the characters played by the actors from the Raid, asu Leech and Razoo Quin-Fee, members of the criminal gang, Kanjiklub.  Though would probably pitch it as a comic book with some cool action sequences, exploring how the gang travel across the galaxy, swindling every one they meet. 
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on January 03, 2016, 12:12:55 AM
None. I have too little knowledge of SW universe, and I wouldn't feel like it'd be my cup of tea, but I'd read yours Nighteyes.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on January 03, 2016, 04:56:36 AM
@tebakutis (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31262) Yeah I think the base of the disagreement is the definition of Mary Sue. I'd have no problem using a different word/phrase for what I mean if you can think of something better. :P

I think that the original definition has such a narrow application that it's pretty useless, so I don't have a problem for it to have been widened (or relaxed, depending on how you look at it) to encompass any character who is both over-competent and under-flawed. The other factors for me are whether the flaws and skills are relevant to the plot, and whether the character actually fails at things.

Still, you raise some interesting examples, every one of which is a story that I love, so I'll reply to those too. :)

Harry Potter
I don't think he's hyper-competent at all. He's unequivocally not one of the most powerful wizards to study at Hogwarts, and is in fact just a little above average in most subjects (the exception being Defence). He's not really that gifted at magic, and often struggles to learn the spells that are key to his success. Aside from Defence, his only truly exceptional skill is his flying ability.

He is the "chosen one", but that's not really relevant. That whole prophecy isn't about someone being super-powerful, and instead is more that he's the one who has the right tools in the right situations to defeat Voldemort. Almost all of his success is down to luck and guesswork, and most of the skills he does have are hard-earned. Examples of hard-earned skills are the spells for summoning (accio) and patronuses, which he was only able to perfect through hard work and perseverence.

Personality-wise, he's very flawed. He's stubborn and headstrong, ignorant, conceited, arrogant, impatient, and so on. That's one of the things I always found ironic actually: the accusations people like Snape and Malfoy throw at him are all true.

So overall he doesn't fulfil either of my criteria for being a MS.

Neo
In this case I think we should ignore the sequels, since after the first he's explicitly meant to be a demi-god. In those he's easily a big MS.

In the first film it's not as clear. Since it's a story about a guy going from average to demi-god it's guaranteed to end up with an overpowered protagonist, but as that's the whole point of the story I'm not sure the MS label really applies. He starts off with zero skills (other than hacking, which isn't actually used in the film), and he fails several times throughout the story. Character-wise he's not very deep at any point.

I tend to think of him as MS-ish, but not in a bad way.

Luke
As mentioned above, Luke's only real strength to begin with is that he's a brilliant pilot. He fails repeatedly, has to be rescued by every other major character at least once each, and badly loses his first saber fight. He's similar to Rey (and Anakin), but the difference for me is that he starts off weak and fails often as he grows. Even then, he relies on others to solve his problems a lot of the time.

I don't really think he's a MS at all. Towards the end he's pretty powerful, but we watched him earn that power.

Ender
Definitely a MS. It works for the story though, plus there's an interesting conflict between his caring nature and his ruthless actions - arguably his "goodness" is a major flaw within the story as it hinders his progress. It's more noticeable in the sequels, but in those cases the story is more about the Lusitanians and the Piggies rather than him.

Gender is irrelevant for me - I don't get why people bring that into the discussion. I didn't say "she's too competent to be a realistic woman", I said "she has no flaws". Besides, it's not like people don't identify male characters as MS when they're over the top - Kvothe anyone? I'd call any protagonist who has mastered a diverse range of skills (especially when they're too diverse), does not fail, and does not have any relevant character flaws a Mary Sue/Marty Stu.  To me Rey arguably fits those criteria more than those four examples you cited.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Eli_Freysson on January 03, 2016, 11:35:52 AM
Eh, let's not argue semantics. Let's just go see the movie again. It's much better than internet arguments.  :)

Away from Mary Stu discussions, here is a fun question for the Fantasy Faction.  The phone rings.  It is the Lucasfilms division of Disney.  They are big fans of your writing, and would like you to pitch to write in the new Force Awakens Expanded Universe.  Which characters would you volunteer to explore?  I quite fancy writing about the characters played by the actors from the Raid, asu Leech and Razoo Quin-Fee, members of the criminal gang, Kanjiklub.  Though would probably pitch it as a comic book with some cool action sequences, exploring how the gang travel across the galaxy, swindling every one they meet.

Oooh, good question. As soon as Han and co entered Maz's place I leaned over to a friend and said "EU characters", because I'm pretty sure every single extra visible in the Mos Eisley cantina now has a detailed backstory.

I don't really know if any minor characters in the movie would suit my writing style, but maybe those two guys Finn was going to get a ride with? One can always do something with wandering low-life spacers. And when I say something I mean anything.
*Crime thriller: They rob the wrong person and get targeted by bounty hunters.
*Action: They get dragged into a fight between the First Order and the Resistance.
*Space horror: They come across a drifting derelict...
*Comedy: Get-rich-quick scheme backfires hilariously.
And so on...

Maz herself was certainly interesting, but again I don't think her story would fit my style.

Maybe that one badass stormtrooper who fought Finn on Takodana. I would have him come to after everyone leaves, severely wounded and behind enemy lines...
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Jmack on January 03, 2016, 02:18:56 PM
A story about Captain Phasma just clicked - or at least a concept...

She is assigned to a planet on the ass-end of the empire as punishment for escaping the planet in an armored trash compactor and having no explanation for her failure to die. She tries to be the marshall in this mining dump, but can never quite catch this particular kid who ends up humiliating her in every way possible.

That could be fun.  8)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on January 03, 2016, 03:32:35 PM
Quote from: Nighteyes
Which characters would you volunteer to explore?

I would read a kanjiklub story for sure.

Has anyone ever written a lightsaber origin story? There must be one.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on January 03, 2016, 05:47:32 PM
Gender is irrelevant for me - I don't get why people bring that into the discussion. I didn't say "she's too competent to be a realistic woman", I said "she has no flaws". Besides, it's not like people don't identify male characters as MS when they're over the top - Kvothe anyone? I'd call any protagonist who has mastered a diverse range of skills (especially when they're too diverse), does not fail, and does not have any relevant character flaws a Mary Sue/Marty Stu.  To me Rey arguably fits those criteria more than those four examples you cited.

the whole mary sue discussion is completely started by max landis.  he's basically a jerky misogynistic douche that everyone loves to hate on:
http://jezebel.com/screenwriter-bro-just-might-be-hollywoods-biggest-fuck-1440597536
http://www.bustle.com/articles/6245-screenwriter-max-landis-doesnt-understand-women-and-neither-do-you-hollywood

note those links were from 2013.

anyway, he's the guy who first yelled loudly about her being a mary sue and fired up all the mra (mens rights activist - http://mensrightsactivism.com) fools.  those are the same people populating gamer gate and the sad puppies.  so now, it's a thing.

anyway -- here's a guy who's actually doing a lot of deconstructing on the topic:
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/LeMeFansite/news/?a=129203
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Rukaio_Alter on January 03, 2016, 06:25:36 PM
That's a minor flaw imo, and it has negligible impact on the plot. If anything, it's played as a positive - it felt like an obvious attempt to win the audience's affections for her. Like, say, Bella from Twilight: her "flaws" are that she's clumsy - which is meant to be endearing - and that she isn't that good at maths - which has absolutely no effect on the story. Bella's complete lack of self awareness and how people view her is also meant to be endearing, and make her seem modest and humble.
Wait wait wait wait what? Minor flaw? Negligible impact? Are you serious? Did you miss the fact that her blind faith in her parents leads her to deliberately self sabotage herself in achieving her dreams? She finally gets off planet with a ship and the freedom to go wherever she wants. She immediately wants to return. She gets an offer to work with Han Solo, that she obviously wants to accept. She refuses because she wants to return. She gets a lightsaber and the opportunity to learn about her own destiny. She runs away. How is that a 'minor flaw' like Bella's? It deliberately changes her thought processes and actions on multiple occasions and makes her make decisions for the worse. That, to me, is more than a simple minor flaw.

Quote
Rey nearly crashed the Falcon while she was getting the systems online, yes. It was in awful condition - she called it junk, the guns jammed, etc - yet she was just such a brilliant pilot that she won anyway. Once she was in the air, she outmaneuvered anything that came near her. She pulled some insane stunts through the belly of a downed starship. She even managed to line up Finn's sights on the final enemy while his gun is broken. How is that not brilliant flying skills? Even if you don't think they're brilliant, how can you not think it's a little ott for someone who has never flown the Falcon before?
I'm certain those techniques definitely looked impressive, but let's point out here that the mook Tie Fighter pilot was able to follow them through all of that with relative ease. So are they really all that outstanding? In the end, they only really took that pilot out with a lucky shot (that I at least got the impression was slightly force-assisted). If she's so super brilliant at piloting, what does that make that guy? And remember, these Tie Fighters are usually shot down in the dozens in these films. It's hard to call Rey's notable struggle to outmaneuver a single one 'outstanding'. Hell, Poe alone took out about 10 when we see him. Why is he not being called a Mary Sue? Hell, he fits the trait better (although that's largely because we don't get to see enough of him to understand his flaws). It can't be because he got captured at the beginning, because Rey got captured as well partway through them film, yet the claim apparently applies to her.

Of course, I'm not saying either of them should be called Mary Sues (partially because it's untrue and partially because I just hate the label), but it does kinda demonstrate the unintentional double standard surrounding this issue.

Quote
You must have a really weird definition of Mary Sue then. For me, it's always been someone with few character flaws - and usually any notable ones have no impact on the story - who is exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas (and I'm partially quoting from TV Tropes there, so I know I'm not alone).
Tebakutis already brought up some excellent points, but a Mary Sue is someone who, as well as being positively perfect in every single way, gravitates the story towards them and is important in every single aspect of it. Poochie in the Simpsons 'Itchy and Scratchy and Poochie' episode is a prime example and explanation of the trope. When other characters are onscreen, they should be asking 'Where's Poochie?', etc etc. If you step back and look at the plot, Rey is actually kind of a side note in the grand scheme of things. The important thing for most of the galaxy is the Resistance vs First Order stuff, of which Rey is only tangentially involved because she's helping BB-8. She's not the primary concern or barely even a blip in the First Order's radar. She gets kidnapped by Kylo Ren not for her supah-speshul Force abilities but for the information she has. Heck, she wasn't even the one to destroy the Starkiller Base. That was Poe. If Rey was a Mary Sue, she would've taken down the Starkiller single-handedly and the entire plot would've revolved around finding her instead of Luke.

Honestly though, I'll admit the entire Mary Sue label simply gets on my nerves nowadays. Certainly it has its place here and there, but more often than not I just see people simply mislabeling to any character who's vaguely talented and whose flaws aren't printed in neon letters (and even then...). And it's got such a unnecessary negativity to it that it's little more than an insult. The implication nowadays is that if a character is a Mary Sue, they're automatically a bad character. Certainly most are, but like most things, if handled well could be perfectly tolerable. Hell, that's the reason people keep bringing up other blockbuster protagonists and how they tend to get a clean rap. Even if Rey was a Mary Sue (which she provably is not), is that really that bad? Is it really even that worthy of comment or criticism compared to those other blockbuster protagonists?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Jmack on January 03, 2016, 06:30:15 PM
And, in any case, either-or, I love the character.
Here endeth the lesson?  :o
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on January 03, 2016, 06:46:05 PM
Honestly though, I'll admit the entire Mary Sue label simply gets on my nerves nowadays.
Thought as much, since you're ignoring what I've actually explained about my perspective, and instead are focusing on what you assume anyone who uses the term is implying. Par for the course I guess.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Saurus on January 03, 2016, 06:48:15 PM

the whole mary sue discussion is completely started by max landis.  he's basically a jerky misogynistic douche that everyone loves to hate on:
http://jezebel.com/screenwriter-bro-just-might-be-hollywoods-biggest-fuck-1440597536
http://www.bustle.com/articles/6245-screenwriter-max-landis-doesnt-understand-women-and-neither-do-you-hollywood

note those links were from 2013.

anyway, he's the guy who first yelled loudly about her being a mary sue and fired up all the mra (mens rights activist - http://mensrightsactivism.com) fools.  those are the same people populating gamer gate and the sad puppies.  so now, it's a thing.

anyway -- here's a guy who's actually doing a lot of deconstructing on the topic:
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/LeMeFansite/news/?a=129203

Well as it happens it was actually *I* who first pointed out she had no relevant flaws - straight after we were done watching the film, before we even left the theatre. Neither of us has read max landis or know who he is, and the fact that he's a misogynistic idiot doesn't mean that anyone who shares his opinion about Rey being a Mary Sue is automatically a misogynist idiot as well. This is literally the only discussion of the film that either of us has taken part in, so our views aren't corrupted by anyone else's opinions. ;)

Instead of focusing on the interpretations and beliefs of the more vocal and prominent champions of either side of the debate, why don't we look at the story and characters, and come to our own conclusions? Same thing happened with everyone claiming Force Awakens is *identical* to A New Hope - which is isn't. Yes, there were strong similarities and shared motifs, but the plot was not the same, and the characters were not the same. It's so frustrating when people focus on the meta argument rather than what's actually under discussion.

To add to the discussion about Rey's personality (or lack thereof):

The film makes a big point about how hard her life is; she spends her days scavenging alone - which is clearly exhausting work - only to receive 1/4 rations as payment. In other words, she's essentially starving. When she rescues BB8 and rejects the offer of 60 rations in exchange for him (and at this point even the people in the queue gasp in shock and horror at the amount of food), it stuck out to me as unrealistic for the situation she's in. That's a perfect example of how everything we see of her in the films is positive. Other characters had many flaws that impeded their success in the film, and that just made her stand out to me.

Note: I don't think she should have sold BB8 - if she had, she would have been a complete arsewart and I and everyone else would have hated her forever. I just think the decision should have been harder. An actual moral person in her situation would have done what she did, but they would have likely broken down in despair because they've just rejected months worth of food for a droid they don't even know, simply because it was the right thing to do.

FYI just like Raptori, I LOVED the film, and didn't mind the fact that Rey was a Mary Sue. It's probably my favourite Star Wars film to date, and that means it's good.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Eli_Freysson on January 03, 2016, 06:48:26 PM
And, in any case, either-or, I love the character.
Here endeth the lesson?  :o

Yes, please. An internet forum never changed anyone's mind on anything.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: tebakutis on January 03, 2016, 07:58:28 PM
@tebakutis (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31262) Yeah I think the base of the disagreement is the definition of Mary Sue. I'd have no problem using a different word/phrase for what I mean if you can think of something better. :P

I totally get what you're saying, @Raptori (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=38840) - we're talking about a concept, and trying to agree on a word for it. Like you, I think what we're saying is that we're simply not on the same page about the term to use to describe a character who is really talented. I don't think "Mary Sue" is the best term for that type of character, because it is derogatory, and because it is gender-specific (directed at female characters ONLY). That's two strikes against it.

If you're asking what term I think might work better, I'd suggest "hyper-competent" instead. The reason I like hyper-competent is because it is gender-neutral (a male OR female character can be "hyper-competent") and you can apply it equally to any fictional character you think isn't written realistically. In this regard, you could easily label James Bond, Jack Bauer, Jason Bourne, and Ethan Hunt "hyper-competent" because they are all super good at what they do and have basically zero flaws that matter in the context of completing their jobs.

Like Rukaio, I feel the biggest problem with the term "Mary Sue" is that it is too often tossed onto ANY female character who is as competent as a male character. If Rey had been Ray, a male, I feel like she could have been written EXACTLY as Rey was written, but no one on the Internet would have said anything about her being a Mary Sue. That's the problem, in my eyes.

Male characters with the same level of competence as Rey get a pass, whereas female characters are penalized for being hyper-competent. Nora's example of Batman being hyper-competent is a great one. He's competent to a ridiculous extent, yet no one bats an eyelash about it. Why? If he were Batwoman (and yes, I know Batwoman exists, but she's a different character) I bet people would be clamoring about him being a "Mary Sue" all the time.

Also, some of the same people clamoring about Rey recently labeled Furiosa (from the new Mad Max) a Mary Sue, which again (at least IMO) she is not. I simply don't feel it's fair to apply that negative label to a competent female character who, as others have pointed out, is not the sole focus of the movie. Rey is one competent character among others, except she's a female, so she gets called out for being too competent while characters like Poe Dameron are given a pass.

Anyway, I also want to make it clear that I don't want this to come across as a personal attack on anyone in this thread (please no! I like you guys!) and so far as I'm concerned, we're just discussing the merits or demerits of characters in the movie. That's totally cool, and what nerds do. :)

Basically, Raptori, if we just used the term "hyper-competent" to describe Rey, I'd be totally down with that. I might not agree, but that's just my subjective opinion, and I certainly don't have any objection to anyone saying Rey is too competent or has too few flaws. I only object to the term "Mary Sue" and would be perfectly happy if it faded back into the depths of 4Chan.

Cheers :)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on January 03, 2016, 08:19:45 PM
@tebakutis (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31262) Yeah I think the base of the disagreement is the definition of Mary Sue. I'd have no problem using a different word/phrase for what I mean if you can think of something better. :P

I totally get what you're saying, @Raptori (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=38840) - we're talking about a concept, and trying to agree on a word for it. Like you, I think what we're saying is that we're simply not on the same page about the term to use to describe a character who is really talented. I don't think "Mary Sue" is the best term for that type of character, because it is derogatory, and because it is gender-specific (directed at female characters ONLY). That's two strikes against it.
Yep exactly, though to me the term doesn't have much of a gender imbalance - for me "Mary Sue" intrinsically contains the concept of "Marty Stu" as well, and the first character that comes to mind at all times is Kvothe. But yeah, it'd be good to find a term with less baggage attached.

If you're asking what term I think might work better, I'd suggest "hyper-competent" instead. The reason I like hyper-competent is because it is gender-neutral (a male OR female character can be "hyper-competent") and you can apply it equally to any fictional character you think isn't written realistically. In this regard, you could easily label James Bond, Jack Bauer, Jason Bourne, and Ethan Hunt "hyper-competent" because they are all super good at what they do and have basically zero flaws that matter in the context of completing their jobs.
Myeah, the problem with that is that the hyper-competence is only half of the problem - it's a perfect term for saying that the character doesn't encounter any external challenges that really faze them, but it doesn't really convey the idea that they don't face character challenges either. A character can be hyper-competent but still face internal problems which make them a more compelling character (Ender being a decent example). Conversely a character can have a perfect personality but be incompetent, and their journey towards competence makes them compelling (most characters that follow the hero's journey archetype fit that pretty well).

Like Rukaio, I feel the biggest problem with the term "Mary Sue" is that it is too often tossed onto ANY female character who is as competent as a male character. If Rey had been Ray, a male, I feel like she could have been written EXACTLY as Rey was written, but no one on the Internet would have said anything about her being a Mary Sue. That's the problem, in my eyes.

Male characters with the same level of competence as Rey get a pass, whereas female characters are penalized for being hyper-competent. Nora's example of Batman being hyper-competent is a great one. He's competent to a ridiculous extent, yet no one bats an eyelash about it. Why? If he were Batwoman (and yes, I know Batwoman exists, but she's a different character) I bet people would be clamoring about him being a "Mary Sue" all the time.

Also, some of the same people clamoring about Rey recently labeled Furiosa (from the new Mad Max) a Mary Sue, which again (at least IMO) she is not. I simply don't feel it's fair to apply that negative label to a competent female character who, as others have pointed out, is not the sole focus of the movie. Rey is one competent character among others, except she's a female, so she gets called out for being too competent while characters like Poe Dameron are given a pass.
Yep that's all the baggage that some people associate the term with, none of that comes to mind for me whatsoever. Guess I just don't frequent the places where it's used like that!

Haven't seen Mad Max so can't comment on that. Poe I don't think is even close to over-competent since he has one skill: flying. Then again, I don't really think of him as that interesting a character, I'm a bit nonplussed at how so many people rave about him!

Anyway, I also want to make it clear that I don't want this to come across as a personal attack on anyone in this thread (please no! I like you guys!) and so far as I'm concerned, we're just discussing the merits or demerits of characters in the movie. That's totally cool, and what nerds do. :)

Basically, Raptori, if we just used the term "hyper-competent" to describe Rey, I'd be totally down with that. I might not agree, but that's just my subjective opinion, and I certainly don't have any objection to anyone saying Rey is too competent or has too few flaws. I only object to the term "Mary Sue" and would be perfectly happy if it faded back into the depths of 4Chan.

Cheers :)
Yep, same here - it's great fun to discuss things like this, don't understand why people get so upset over it and take things so personally!  :P
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Saurus on January 03, 2016, 08:22:01 PM
@tebakutis (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31262)

The problem is that "hyper-competent" only refers to her amazing skills. The point is that she's super amazing at everything - which most likely turns out to be because she was trained as a Jedi when she was a child - AND she's a perfect person; kind, selfless, empathic, humble, hard-working, patient, trusting*, brave, loyal, etc. Absolutely no flaws. Yes, she's naive, which actually conflicts with the fact that she's supposed to be very intelligent. Anyone with half a brain would see that her family abandoned her on a planet and left her to fend for herself some 10-20 odd years ago (not exactly sure how old she's supposed to be) and would assume that they're not coming back. Not necessarily because they don't love her or care about her; something might have happened to them, and the chances of them coming back after all those years are minimal.

Most people growing up in an environment like that would have to be a little selfish. She's clearly very independent and has no friends, it seems very much like a everyone-for-themselves kind of environment. When the guys after BB8 attack her as Finn is watching, no one comes and helps. The viewer's attention is even drawn to this by Finn looking around like "WTF why isn't anyone helping!?".

That's not the only thing; throughout the film there are no points at which she has major problems due to character flaws.

*Well, technically 'trusting' could be another flaw filed under naive, but again, it causes no problems.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: tebakutis on January 03, 2016, 08:43:57 PM
@tebakutis (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31262)

The problem is that "hyper-competent" only refers to her amazing skills. The point is that she's super amazing at everything - which most likely turns out to be because she was trained as a Jedi when she was a child - AND she's a perfect person; kind, selfless, empathic, humble, hard-working, patient, trusting*, brave, loyal, etc. Absolutely no flaws. Yes, she's naive, which actually conflicts with the fact that she's supposed to be very intelligent. Anyone with half a brain would see that her family abandoned her on a planet and left her to fend for herself some 10-20 odd years ago (not exactly sure how old she's supposed to be) and would assume that they're not coming back. Not necessarily because they don't love her or care about her; something might have happened to them, and the chances of them coming back after all those years are minimal.

Well, maybe the argument should just be that she's flawless, then? That's certainly a word that fits the description you've laid out, but again, it's gender neutral and lacks a negative connotation.

While I might disagree with the assertion, calling a character "flawless" certainly wouldn't bother me the way "Mary Sue" does.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on January 03, 2016, 09:09:06 PM
@tebakutis (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31262)

The problem is that "hyper-competent" only refers to her amazing skills. The point is that she's super amazing at everything - which most likely turns out to be because she was trained as a Jedi when she was a child - AND she's a perfect person; kind, selfless, empathic, humble, hard-working, patient, trusting*, brave, loyal, etc. Absolutely no flaws. Yes, she's naive, which actually conflicts with the fact that she's supposed to be very intelligent. Anyone with half a brain would see that her family abandoned her on a planet and left her to fend for herself some 10-20 odd years ago (not exactly sure how old she's supposed to be) and would assume that they're not coming back. Not necessarily because they don't love her or care about her; something might have happened to them, and the chances of them coming back after all those years are minimal.

Well, maybe the argument should just be that she's flawless, then? That's certainly a word that fits the description you've laid out, but again, it's gender neutral and lacks a negative connotation.

While I might disagree with the assertion, calling a character "flawless" certainly wouldn't bother me the way "Mary Sue" does.
Yeah I guess that's close, though you might end up with people objecting when characters have minor flaws that don't affect theplot, plus some would inevitably end up thinking you mean the character is flawlessly written!  :P
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on January 03, 2016, 09:25:10 PM
The film makes a big point about how hard her life is; she spends her days scavenging alone - which is clearly exhausting work - only to receive 1/4 rations as payment. In other words, she's essentially starving. When she rescues BB8 and rejects the offer of 60 rations in exchange for him (and at this point even the people in the queue gasp in shock and horror at the amount of food), it stuck out to me as unrealistic for the situation she's in. That's a perfect example of how everything we see of her in the films is positive. Other characters had many flaws that impeded their success in the film, and that just made her stand out to me.

Note: I don't think she should have sold BB8 - if she had, she would have been a complete arsewart and I and everyone else would have hated her forever. I just think the decision should have been harder. An actual moral person in her situation would have done what she did, but they would have likely broken down in despair because they've just rejected months worth of food for a droid they don't even know, simply because it was the right thing to do.

FYI just like Raptori, I LOVED the film, and didn't mind the fact that Rey was a Mary Sue. It's probably my favourite Star Wars film to date, and that means it's good.
Here's the problem. That's based on how you think you would react if you had to witness the trauma of everyone being murdered in front of you, and then left to be abandoned. And we see how she's blocked out the memories as soon as she goes to pick up the lightsaber. It's something that lots of people do. They witness an event that's so traumatic for them that they block it out of their memory.
I'm sure she would've broken down after she gave up the rations if there was time. Almost right after that happens, they get attacked. She doesn't have time for crying.
@tebakutis (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=31262) Yeah I think the base of the disagreement is the definition of Mary Sue. I'd have no problem using a different word/phrase for what I mean if you can think of something better. :P

I totally get what you're saying, @Raptori (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=38840) - we're talking about a concept, and trying to agree on a word for it. Like you, I think what we're saying is that we're simply not on the same page about the term to use to describe a character who is really talented. I don't think "Mary Sue" is the best term for that type of character, because it is derogatory, and because it is gender-specific (directed at female characters ONLY). That's two strikes against it.

If you're asking what term I think might work better, I'd suggest "hyper-competent" instead. The reason I like hyper-competent is because it is gender-neutral (a male OR female character can be "hyper-competent") and you can apply it equally to any fictional character you think isn't written realistically. In this regard, you could easily label James Bond, Jack Bauer, Jason Bourne, and Ethan Hunt "hyper-competent" because they are all super good at what they do and have basically zero flaws that matter in the context of completing their jobs.

Like Rukaio, I feel the biggest problem with the term "Mary Sue" is that it is too often tossed onto ANY female character who is as competent as a male character. If Rey had been Ray, a male, I feel like she could have been written EXACTLY as Rey was written, but no one on the Internet would have said anything about her being a Mary Sue. That's the problem, in my eyes.

Male characters with the same level of competence as Rey get a pass, whereas female characters are penalized for being hyper-competent. Nora's example of Batman being hyper-competent is a great one. He's competent to a ridiculous extent, yet no one bats an eyelash about it. Why? If he were Batwoman (and yes, I know Batwoman exists, but she's a different character) I bet people would be clamoring about him being a "Mary Sue" all the time.

Also, some of the same people clamoring about Rey recently labeled Furiosa (from the new Mad Max) a Mary Sue, which again (at least IMO) she is not. I simply don't feel it's fair to apply that negative label to a competent female character who, as others have pointed out, is not the sole focus of the movie. Rey is one competent character among others, except she's a female, so she gets called out for being too competent while characters like Poe Dameron are given a pass.

Anyway, I also want to make it clear that I don't want this to come across as a personal attack on anyone in this thread (please no! I like you guys!) and so far as I'm concerned, we're just discussing the merits or demerits of characters in the movie. That's totally cool, and what nerds do. :)

Basically, Raptori, if we just used the term "hyper-competent" to describe Rey, I'd be totally down with that. I might not agree, but that's just my subjective opinion, and I certainly don't have any objection to anyone saying Rey is too competent or has too few flaws. I only object to the term "Mary Sue" and would be perfectly happy if it faded back into the depths of 4Chan.

Cheers :)
I have to pick on one thing here. Jason Bourne doesn't fit that description. In the movies, he has so many opportunities to finish the job and end all his struggles. There are also several alternatives than killing everyone. Yet, the confusion, the memories trying to flood back in, the girl... They all make things complicated for him. If he was going to be the perfect guy, he would've killed his companion in the bathroom when he had the chance.
I also don't associate Mary Sue with a guy or girl. I've heard Percy Jackson described the same way, not even substituting Marty Sue in there. It's a gender neutral term depending on how you look at it. I don't care for it only because it's a label. Characters are characters. What's important is how fleshed out and how deep they are.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Saurus on January 03, 2016, 10:01:01 PM
Here's the problem. That's based on how you think you would react if you had to witness the trauma of everyone being murdered in front of you, and then left to be abandoned. And we see how she's blocked out the memories as soon as she goes to pick up the lightsaber. It's something that lots of people do. They witness an event that's so traumatic for them that they block it out of their memory.
I'm sure she would've broken down after she gave up the rations if there was time. Almost right after that happens, they get attacked. She doesn't have time for crying.

I'm actually coming from the assumption that she doesn't remember the massacre because her memory was wiped - this is what I assumed had happened, and that's why she doesn't remember her parents either (*cough*Luke*cough*). As far as we know, her memories start from the moment she was left on Jakku at age whatever (8 at MOST).

When she picks up the lightsaber she is terrified, in part because the visions themselves are terrifying, and in part because she doesn't understand them.

After she turns down the rations the scene cuts to Finn, so we don't actually know how much time has passed since walking off with BB8 and them running into Finn. If everything happens in real time, it's quite a while. Either way, at no point does she seem very torn about turning away from all that food and sticking with the droid, and as far as we know, the droid has given her no good reason to defend him or help him.

It's difficult for most westerners to imagine what starving is like, and it's easy to say you'd do the right thing in that situation. Even though I have very strong sense of right and wrong, I find it hard to believe that someone growing up in such harsh conditions wouldn't have stronger selfish impulses, even if they're able to resist them to do the right thing. Hell, most people do the wrong thing despite them having ample options and opportunities.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on January 03, 2016, 11:17:09 PM
So, in the end Saurus, you have a problem with her honesty and integrity?

I can see your point, but I don't think she's starving really. Something bugs me a bit in the memories she has : when we see her crying for her parents to come back (to me she looks 5 or 6 at most) the hand holding her belongs to the ugly fat alien who sells rations.
Yet Rey isn't a slave, isn't a possession. So it would mean (I think), that she was entrusted to him. She couldn't have survived alone as a scavenger that young, she must have been taught and cared for to an extent.
I think that this ugly alien keeps her captive by keeping her dependent.

As for not selling the droid... I personally never got the impression she'd be crying, or breaking down, after refusing the food. And I saw no problem with her integrity. Think about it. Droids are goods, but lots of sci fi tend to consider AI as almost independent intelligent beings. Think of LoveLace in The Long Way or Justice of Torren.

Not saying it's necessarily the case in the SW universe, but can't you imagine how such a lonely girl could bond quickly with a droid, and get an amazing kick out of helping out someone else, someone who needs her, asks for her help?
People in terrible situations helped others they did not know. The last world war in France is full of such examples, of people risking death and deportation by hiding total strangers. People went really hungry then as well.
Dire situations either get the best or the worst out of us.
What kind of a person would Rey be, if she didn't do the good thing in such an easy dilemna?

Besides she complains that some pieces of equipment were worth 1/2 ration each days before, hinting at the fact that his under paying is a bit of a new thing in this case. He probably does it often, but she eats everyday, I'm sure.


I honestly don't get what the flawless thing is about. I usually never weight out the flaws against the competences or good character streaks, I only judge whether the character seems realistic or not.

To me Rey is realistic. And a lot of her good humor and easiness is due to her youth and inexperience. I'm pretty sure episode 8 will see her struggle even more with the dark events that could make her sour/disillusioned, ect.
I mean, here is a girl who "didn't know there was that much green in the whole universe".
Whatever she's seen on Jakku, dotting on her parents as she does, I'm sure she also never thought there could be "that much evil" when she sees Kylo murder his own dad.

She admitted making mistakes, got a bit of a temper, had trusting issues and painful memories, made terrible blunders (like making a panicked run for it after the saber), was terrified while moving around in Star Killer, dabbled with the force as if she got to test the stories about it for the first time (the scene with the ST releasing him looked a lot like she knew you could do that with the force but wasn't sure if it was true)... She gets grumpy (fixing the Falcon) or excited (after flying it) in a human way.
To me she felt very real. Not too flawed of course, but then she's young, optimistic... She's got room to turn darker, greyer.

Hence I'm actually glad they made her more on the nice side, since it gives her a lot more room to be properly tempted by the dark side and struggle with the discoveries she'll make - about her parents, her stranding on Jakku, ect.

I thought the same of all main characters. Finn, with his sense of humor and excitable nervousness in battle felt like a guy I could go have a drink with.
Emo Kylo Ren felt just as real, because of his struggles. He might not be the kind of person we like, but can't we picture him as one of these guys we get to see, arrested on tv after going on a rampage, and having lousy justifications for it? Being revealed ultimately as a lost youth, indoctrinated, ect? 

Overall Star Wars is a universe of Hyper Competent people. What of Jedis? Morally good and stuck to a strict code of life that won't even let them have a lover, yet do good and are proficient in combat, force, and pilot? What were the flaws of someone like Qui Gon, Yoda, or even Ben Kenobi? All such perfect mentor figures, so powerful...
I'd love to see a strong female Jedi become someone's mentor.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Saurus on January 04, 2016, 03:29:33 AM
@Nora (http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=40237)

You've misunderstood me completely. I'll respond to all your points, so prepare for an essay, lol.

I don't have a problem with her honesty and integrity. These are traits I admire greatly and precisely why I *DO* like her as a character. My problem is with the little facts, like how they make it seem like she has a rough life and lives on tiny rations, and yet she doesn't even hesitate to turn down the food for a strange droid. She clearly wants the food, that much is made obvious by the way she hugs it to herself and looks at it like she's never seen anything so glorious. This is by no means the only way to have a flaw, just one of the most obvious ones in my opinion. I imagined Jakku as a very harsh place. Knowing what people are like, it's highly likely scavengers would steal from each other and attack each other, since bringing in better stuff means more food. Like I said, it seems very much like a "everyone for themselves" kind of place.

None of the bonding between her and BB8 is shown, so it's very unclear how she actually feels about him. The way she behaves shows that she's being kind helping him, but has no interest in becoming friends with him - to begin with. Yes, I think it very likely she would bond with BB8 (because this is exactly what I would do), but none of this is shown in the film, and is therefore just conjecture and theorising. Of course after she's refused to sell him to the ugly alien, the bond is sealed, and she defends him again when the men come for her, right before they run into Finn, whom she beats up when BB8 tells her he's stolen Poe's jacket.

Like I said, most people do the wrong thing even when they have the option to avoid doing it. Would it have been evil for her in her situation to accept the food? Are people who kill animals for mere palate pleasure evil? If she had done it, a decent person would have immediately regretted it, perhaps tried to back out, and if that wasn't possible, they would have tried to rescue the droid back. However, like I said, she could have even for just a moment hesitated, as MOST (not all) people would have, and still refused the food. Perhaps that was actually the writers' intention and the actor just didn't convey it strongly enough, in which case the fault isn't really in the character, but the actor for failing to perform and the director for failing to force it. However even if that was their intent, it's not a flaw that would have any impact on what happens to her after that.

Either way, as I mentioned earlier, this is but an example of the many ways they could've added flaws but didn't do so. To me Rey lacks depth as a character. Don't get me wrong, she's still more interesting and a better written character than most characters in the original or prequel series, and I like her, but that doesn't mean I can't criticise her at all. I love Ender as a character, but he's not perfect either (as in perfectly written).

- I don't agree with her having a temper, or trusting issues. The only example of a temper I can imagine you referring to, is the moment I mentioned: where she attacks Finn because she assumes he's harmed Poe? She'll be full of adrenaline after the other guys just attacked her to try and get BB8, and she'll have assumed Finn was with them. To me, having a temper is someone getting very upset very quickly, and usually over minor provocation, which doesn't apply here.

- Can't imagine what you mean about trusting issues; she trusted everyone as far as I could tell.

- Not having depth doesn't mean she didn't have emotions. Completely separate issues.

- Any flaws that may or may not be hinted at cause no issues, which makes them irrelevant.

- She makes mistake when operating a strange computer. If she hadn't, that really would have been a bit too incredible. And admitting that you made a mistake is by no means a flaw, it shows honesty and ability to admit to being wrong, something the vast majority of humans lack. Perhaps this is exactly why - like you, they consider it a flaw?

Finn is a good example; he's naive and ignorant, and NOT super intelligent at the same time, he's not a brilliant fighter despite having been trained his entire life, although he holds out quite well against the injured Kylo. He's good, and empathic, which is why he leaves the first order, yet originally his only goal is to escape as far as possible
 and not have anything to do with the resistance, which shows an average amount of selfishness and lack of bravery. I think he's a great character.

Likewise when Rey runs away from the lightsaber, that is a normal reaction. If she had just accepted it and been like "woo I'm a jedi!", that would have been incredibly unrealistic and over the top. While I think she lacks depth, she's still quite human - I am by no means saying she is completely one-dimensional and unrealistic. If I thought that, I wouldn't have said I liked her.

Jedis earn their power, they train for years and give up all else in life. It is essentially a religion - haven't you ever heard of monks who give up all carnal pleasures to practise their religion? And in the real life those monks don't even gain super powers in return ;) Anyway, like I said earlier (I wonder if anyone actually read my comments?), her being super good at everything is very likely due to being trained as a Jedi when she was a child. Not to mention that she's very probably a super Jedi, with a "high midi-chlorian count" just like Anakin. ;) How else would she be so powerful despite her training stopping at such a young age - some 15 years before the beginning of the film.

I honestly don't get what the flawless thing is about. I usually never weight out the flaws against the competences or good character streaks, I only judge whether the character seems realistic or not.

To me Rey is realistic. And a lot of her good humor and easiness is due to her youth and inexperience. I'm pretty sure episode 8 will see her struggle even more with the dark events that could make her sour/disillusioned, ect.

It's about characters that are more realistic and easier to empathise with. By virtue of some good storytelling Rey is easy to empathise with despite her lack of flaws, but even so her story could have been stronger if we had seen her struggle with things more. It's not a complaint, as I absolutely loved the film, more an acknowledgement that they missed an opportunity to make the film deeper and more meaningful.

There's a world of difference between "flawed" and "dark/grey" - a character could be flawed in that they're optimistic to a fault; the growth there would be that they learn to be more realistic and therefore more effective and less likely to cause themselves problems. Since Rey's personality doesn't cause her any problems, there is no potential for such growth.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on January 07, 2016, 06:44:05 PM
this is an amazing read:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/matty-granger/at-long-lastmy-star-wars-episode-vii-review-the-force-awakens-the-rise-of-idiot-/10153163095086277

Quote
We are very close to reaching the end of social media’s usefulness. Anyone with a keyboard can write anything they want with little to no training or skill. More often than not, the articles don’t even need to be true or have any sort of back up research and sadly all it takes is a bold, contrarian statement to convince people who aren’t interested in doing research for themselves that something wildly incorrect is truth.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on January 07, 2016, 07:08:23 PM
this is an amazing read:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/matty-granger/at-long-lastmy-star-wars-episode-vii-review-the-force-awakens-the-rise-of-idiot-/10153163095086277 (https://www.facebook.com/notes/matty-granger/at-long-lastmy-star-wars-episode-vii-review-the-force-awakens-the-rise-of-idiot-/10153163095086277)

Quote
We are very close to reaching the end of social media’s usefulness. Anyone with a keyboard can write anything they want with little to no training or skill. More often than not, the articles don’t even need to be true or have any sort of back up research and sadly all it takes is a bold, contrarian statement to convince people who aren’t interested in doing research for themselves that something wildly incorrect is truth.
That was great!  ;D
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on January 07, 2016, 11:55:11 PM
Wow. that guy must've watched the movie 5 or 6 times. I didn't notice another guy being dragged away. I thought they all just got eaten except Fin.
With a lot of those other plot holes, we really won't know until the next movie comes out. It just seems that way at the moment. Very good explanations though.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on January 08, 2016, 12:23:37 AM
One of the big problems with the HuffPo piece was that a lot of the 'plot holes' weren't actually plot holes, they were just things that for whatever reason bugged the 'reviewer' and as the rebuttal often points out all he really had to do to answer many of his own questions was actually watch the film.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Eli_Freysson on January 08, 2016, 08:48:49 AM
this is an amazing read:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/matty-granger/at-long-lastmy-star-wars-episode-vii-review-the-force-awakens-the-rise-of-idiot-/10153163095086277

Quote
We are very close to reaching the end of social media’s usefulness. Anyone with a keyboard can write anything they want with little to no training or skill. More often than not, the articles don’t even need to be true or have any sort of back up research and sadly all it takes is a bold, contrarian statement to convince people who aren’t interested in doing research for themselves that something wildly incorrect is truth.

That IS a good read. Thanks for posting it.

"Unforgivable"? Seriously? The perfect story has yet to be created. The man is just whining about basic storytelling tropes, and complete non-issues.

It is damn strange how negative the internet has gotten. Any time I've just seen a movie I liked and look it up online I get a face full of weirdly intense hatred and aloof snobbery. I mean, according to imdb message boards, not a single good movie has ever been made. The posts are almost uniformly negative.

Weird.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nox on January 08, 2016, 09:56:25 AM
Uhh, you guys know you're talking about Huffington Post?
They're not journalists, they're bloggers who rely on click-bait to ensure people continue talking about them...as you are doing now.


It's like buzzfeed, The Verge, Polygon, perezhilton etc.


It's as much news as The Onion. Just sad, instead of funny.


I understand wanting to defend things you like but defending from Huff is like taking human rights criticism from Saudi Arabia.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on January 08, 2016, 12:39:52 PM
Uhh, you guys know you're talking about Huffington Post?
They're not journalists, they're bloggers who rely on click-bait to ensure people continue talking about them...as you are doing now.


It's like buzzfeed, The Verge, Polygon, perezhilton etc.


It's as much news as The Onion. Just sad, instead of funny.


I understand wanting to defend things you like but defending from Huff is like taking human rights criticism from Saudi Arabia.

Ah well, the fight against the unthinking masses is a perpetual one, and not one we can ever win.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on January 08, 2016, 02:39:19 PM
Uhh, you guys know you're talking about Huffington Post?
They're not journalists, they're bloggers who rely on click-bait to ensure people continue talking about them...as you are doing now.


It's like buzzfeed, The Verge, Polygon, perezhilton etc.


It's as much news as The Onion. Just sad, instead of funny.


I understand wanting to defend things you like but defending from Huff is like taking human rights criticism from Saudi Arabia.

this is where i point out the last two recipients of the everett mckinley dirksen award for distinguished reporting of congress award were huffpo and buzzfeed.
http://nationalpress.org/awards/everett-mckinley-dirksen-awards-for-distinguished-reporting-of-congress/?a=4951

and then there was that time huffpo won the pulitzer for national reporting.
http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/7161

awkward....
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nox on January 08, 2016, 03:25:36 PM
this is where i point out the last two recipients of the everett mckinley dirksen award for distinguished reporting of congress award were huffpo and buzzfeed.
http://nationalpress.org/awards/everett-mckinley-dirksen-awards-for-distinguished-reporting-of-congress/?a=4951 (http://nationalpress.org/awards/everett-mckinley-dirksen-awards-for-distinguished-reporting-of-congress/?a=4951)

and then there was that time huffpo won the pulitzer for national reporting.
http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/7161 (http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/7161)

awkward....


Both of those people are from Roll Call and the one for which Matt got the award was while he was at Roll Call, it's only attributed to Huff because he's there now. David Wood looks like a freelancer to me, at least based of the wall of text at the bottom that never mentions Huff in his bio.


But, be that as it was, that was 2012. Things change. In 2012 CNN still had a fully staffed investigative section as well.


As it is, Huff is now blatantly taking news from REDDIT (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/sep/12/huffington-post-banned-reddit-aol)while buzz has such hard hitting articles as:
22 Tweets About Pokémon That Will Get You Every Time (http://www.buzzfeed.com/jasminnahar/tweets-about-pokemon-guaranteed-to-make-you-laugh#.pm2ydzx5ne)


Things change. Not always for the better.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on January 08, 2016, 04:26:27 PM
Both of those people are from Roll Call and the one for which Matt got the award was while he was at Roll Call, it's only attributed to Huff because he's there now. David Wood looks like a freelancer to me, at least based of the wall of text at the bottom that never mentions Huff in his bio.

uh...  okay.  from the link:
Quote
Gregory D. Johnsen is a writer-at-large for BuzzFeed News. In 2013, Johnsen was named as BuzzFeed News’ first Michael Hastings Security Fellow. Johnsen is the author of The Last Refuge: Yemen, al-Qaeda, and America’s War in Arabia. He has been a Peace Corps volunteer in Jordan, a Fulbright Fellow in Yemen, and a Fulbright-Hays Fellow in Egypt.

John Stanton is the Washington bureau chief for BuzzFeed News. Previously Stanton was a reporter at Roll Call covering Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court.

Kate Nocera is a congressional reporter for BuzzFeed News. PreviouslyNocera covered Congress and health care for Politico. Nocera began her career at The New York Daily News, covering everything from state and city politicians to murders and building collapses.

so...

gregory was named buzzfeed news’ first michael hastings security fellow in 2013.

stanton has been buzzfeed's washington bureau chief since 2012.

kate had been with buzzfeed since 2013.

all relevant.

sure, matt fuller was at roll call right before joining huffpo.  but, regardless, that's where he works now.  does that mean now that he's won an award, he's going to change jobs just so he can write clickbait?

finally, david wood is the senior military correspondent for the huffington post and has been on staff since early 2011.  so, no -- not a freelancer.


But, be that as it was, that was 2012. Things change. In 2012 CNN still had a fully staffed investigative section as well.

just out of curiosity, do you always sling so much random ad-hominem?


As it is, Huff is now blatantly taking news from REDDIT (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/sep/12/huffington-post-banned-reddit-aol)while buzz has such hard hitting articles as:
22 Tweets About Pokémon That Will Get You Every Time (http://www.buzzfeed.com/jasminnahar/tweets-about-pokemon-guaranteed-to-make-you-laugh#.pm2ydzx5ne)


Things change. Not always for the better.

totally.  ripped from the pages of reddit:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/navient-student-loans_568edd6ce4b0a2b6fb6f6486

i suspect all the the confusion comes from conflating the front page of a newspaper with its funny pages.


p.s.  i CANNOT believe i'm defending huffpo and buzzfeed.  /sigh
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nox on January 08, 2016, 04:58:41 PM

just out of curiosity, do you always sling so much random ad-hominem?
[/color]

Do...do you know what ad-hominem means? The only way I can see that being ad-hominem is if you are some kind of anthropomorphic personification of CNN?

I can see it being composition fallacy or texas sharpshooter but no idea how you got to ad-hominem...

Do you just like using big words in order to add credibility to your arguments? <---This is ad-hominem.

That said, your argument goes to pieces due to you appealing to authority, "pulitzer says they good so they must be good". It's also composition fallacy because you present the evidence that one person, part of a whole, winning an award somehow makes the whole sites credible. It's also texas sharpshooter because you cherry picked the positives and applied them over the whole.

All of those can also be applied to my arguments which is why we don't use logical fallacies that often as they tent to make every argument redundant.

What a pointless waste of time this was. I don't even like Star Wars movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on January 08, 2016, 06:16:15 PM
Do...do you know what ad-hominem means?

irony is so awesome.


The only way I can see that being ad-hominem is if you are some kind of anthropomorphic personification of CNN?

oh.  i'm sorry.  i had assumed you were talking about the people who run cnn and make the staffing decisions.  or were you talking about the inanimate brand and how it cut back on the staff?


I can see it being composition fallacy or texas sharpshooter but no idea how you got to ad-hominem...

Do you just like using big words in order to add credibility to your arguments? <---This is ad-hominem.

That said, your argument goes to pieces due to you appealing to authority, "pulitzer says they good so they must be good". It's also composition fallacy because you present the evidence that one person, part of a whole, winning an award somehow makes the whole sites credible. It's also texas sharpshooter because you cherry picked the positives and applied them over the whole.

this sounds like you've just googled 'logical fallacies' for the first time.  tho, i do like the texas sharpshooter one because i grew up in san antonio.

(omg -- so layered!  i'm hilarious!)


All of those can also be applied to my arguments which is why we don't use logical fallacies that often as they tent to make every argument redundant.

What a pointless waste of time this was. I don't even like Star Wars movies.

awww...  don't take your ball and go home.  i won't have anyone to argue with then.  this was fun!

tho, it does seem a bit off topic.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nox on January 08, 2016, 06:32:40 PM
An ad hominem Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin)] for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attack on an argument made by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, rather than attacking the argument directly.

So, unless you are CNN, it doesn't apply.

Perhaps googling logical fallacies was something you should have done as well.

Also, that's not what irony is or would be either...
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nighteyes on January 08, 2016, 06:33:53 PM
Oh god. Not ad hominems. That seems to be the new version of calling someone a Nazi.

Ummm. I get the orginal poster's frustrations with huffington Post, but really did not like the tone of the article on the book of face. Came across as very comic book shop guy from the Simpsons. How dare you critise something I love, now I ll call you an idiot and waste several 1000 words of text telling you in a very condescending way you are wrong.  And I still don't buy that Rey is a Skywalker or a Kenobi and think it will be really pants if she is.  Not every Force sensitive individual needs to be related and would be kind of odd if they were.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on January 08, 2016, 06:42:18 PM
Perhaps googling logical fallacies was something you should have done as well.

i wonder how many of these ad hominem things i can get you to post.


Oh god. Not ad hominems. That seems to be the new version of calling someone a Nazi.

right?!  godwin would be proud.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nox on January 08, 2016, 07:10:44 PM
Perhaps googling logical fallacies was something you should have done as well.

i wonder how many of these ad hominem things i can get you to post.


Oh god. Not ad hominems. That seems to be the new version of calling someone a Nazi.

right?!  godwin would be proud.



*sigh* That's not ad-hominem because the argument was about you not knowing what it was...
Ad-hominem would be me insulting your hair or the fact you don't know the function of the shift key. Something unrelated to the actual argume-nevermind.


I guess there really is no place left on the internet where you won't meet a person that's just "trolling for the lulz", even places like this.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on January 08, 2016, 07:38:47 PM
the fact you don't know the function of the shift key.

does that one count?


I guess there really is no place left on the internet where you won't meet a person that's just "trolling for the lulz", even places like this.

also, that's a fabulous piece of martyrdom for the guy who came charging into the conversation with this trolly post:

Uhh, you guys know you're talking about Huffington Post?
They're not journalists, they're bloggers who rely on click-bait to ensure people continue talking about them...as you are doing now.


It's like buzzfeed, The Verge, Polygon, perezhilton etc.


It's as much news as The Onion. Just sad, instead of funny.


I understand wanting to defend things you like but defending from Huff is like taking human rights criticism from Saudi Arabia.

just sayin'.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on January 08, 2016, 10:05:12 PM
Could we all please now behave like grown-ups and either move the harsh arguments back to Star Wars or simply end it?

I'm a massive Schopenhauer fan, so I've read The Art of Being Right, and you guys are not even trying to use the more subtle techniques here!
Come on, you make it look like a brawl... over the Huff?

If you can't believe you're arguing over it, then please stop.
It's an online news paper now as well, so of course they do shitty click bait, among more serious articles, but whoever staffs them, they're not worth the space you've given them on this thread. They're not Fox News, but they're not the Time either, and the FB guy isn't going to win the pullitzer for his insulting back-review.
I reckon he's right but too offended, like Nighteyes says, it diminishes his argument.

Now please guys, go insult each other over PM if you're really going to take the ad nominem all the way to arguments ad personam.
It's just awkward for the rest of us now  :-[
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on January 08, 2016, 10:14:42 PM
Could we all please now behave like grown-ups and either move the harsh arguments back to Star Wars or simply end it?

I'm a massive Schopenhauer fan, so I've read The Art of Being Right, and you guys are not even trying to use the more subtle techniques here!
Come on, you make it look like a brawl... over the Huff?

If you can't believe you're arguing over it, then please stop.
It's an online news paper now as well, so of course they do shitty click bait, among more serious articles, but whoever staffs them, they're not worth the space you've given them on this thread. They're not Fox News, but they're not the Time either, and the FB guy isn't going to win the pullitzer for his insulting back-review.
I reckon he's right but too offended, like Nighteyes says, it diminishes his argument.

Now please guys, go insult each other over PM if you're really going to take the ad nominem all the way to arguments ad personam.
It's just awkward for the rest of us now  :-[

heh.

yes, ma'am.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Arry on January 08, 2016, 10:58:21 PM
Could we all please now behave like grown-ups and either move the harsh arguments back to Star Wars or simply end it?
Yes, please :)

(Thanks Nora)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: DBASKLS on January 08, 2016, 11:32:08 PM
DBASKLS walks back in the room, looks confused and walks out again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on January 08, 2016, 11:59:32 PM
It may have been discussed earlier but I didn't go through all of the spoilers (at what point can we freely discuss them?)  but what do people think of the
Rey is a Kenobi
  theory?   Not sure I buy it but could see it being plausible.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Doctor_Chill on January 09, 2016, 12:16:43 AM
It may have been discussed earlier but I didn't go through all of the spoilers (at what point can we freely discuss them?)  but what do people think of the
Rey is a Kenobi
  theory?   Not sure I buy it but could see it being plausible.

I prefer it over any other rheory I've run in to.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on January 09, 2016, 12:31:01 AM
Nah. no way. She's a skywalker. If she were Ben's kid, she would be way older. If he even had a kid, he would've likely came up in the original trilogy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on January 09, 2016, 12:54:16 AM
Nah. no way. She's a skywalker. If she were Ben's kid, she would be way older. If he even had a kid, he would've likely came up in the original trilogy.
The theory isn't that she's Ben's daughter, but his granddaughter. Google 'Is Rey a Kenobi?' it brings up the original article by Ben Ostrower which contained this theory, but there are just as many arguments against it. The more interesting theory now going around is that Rey could possibly be both a Skywalker and a Kenobi. There's been a lot less theorising and discussion of who her mother was. As soon as I saw her master the force as quickly as she did (although I think she used it in small ways to survive on Jakku without actually realising it) I wondered if her mother was also a Jedi. Of course I also like the fan theory that Ben, not Anakin, is the real father of Luke and Leia.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on January 09, 2016, 01:24:49 AM
Nah. no way. She's a skywalker. If she were Ben's kid, she would be way older. If he even had a kid, he would've likely came up in the original trilogy.
The theory isn't that she's Ben's daughter, but his granddaughter. Google 'Is Rey a Kenobi?' it brings up the original article by Ben Ostrower which contained this theory, but there are just as many arguments against it. The more interesting theory now going around is that Rey could possibly be both a Skywalker and a Kenobi. There's been a lot less theorising and discussion of who her mother was. As soon as I saw her master the force as quickly as she did (although I think she used it in small ways to survive on Jakku without actually realising it) I wondered if her mother was also a Jedi. Of course I also like the fan theory that Ben, not Anakin, is the real father of Luke and Leia.

her mother a jedi?

what if she were the daughter of luke and mara jade?  that's a pretty potent, force-wielding combination.

or is it too much from "legends" to become canon?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on January 09, 2016, 03:03:43 AM
Mara Jade? I think I missed something...
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Doctor_Chill on January 09, 2016, 03:54:41 AM
Mara Jade? I think I missed something...

EU canon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on January 09, 2016, 03:57:01 AM
Mara Jade was in the old Extended Universe that is no longer officially canon.   She ended up marrying Luke and having a son with him that they named Ben.   IIRC she was killed by Han & Leia's son Jacen.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on January 09, 2016, 04:45:17 AM
That could be interesting. So if Kylo killed Jade too, then Rey's life would really suck. Two family members dead and one gone into exile.
She would wished she had stabbed Kylo before the chasm separated them both.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on January 09, 2016, 06:36:45 AM
When I first considered her mother being a Jedi I did wonder if it would be a way for the new entries to bring Mara into it and make her canon. A lot of fans do still like Mara.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nighteyes on January 09, 2016, 07:40:42 AM
If what some of you are suggesting happened in a book I d throw it across the room in anger.  Star Wars takes place across an entire Galaxy, yet you guys are all suggesting that every jedi comes from the same limited gene pool. You are also suggesting the new stories should basically copy the previous stories beat for beat by giving Rey nearly the entirely same story arc as Luke from the original trilogy. You might be right but would be annoyed if you are. 

I hope it turns out that Rey's parentage has nothing at all to do with existing families in the Star Wars stories. We already have Kylo Ren/ Ben Solo as a continuation of the Starwalker/ Solo line. I hope the mystery is something competely new and surprising. My own theory is that she was hidden away as her powers manifested at an early age, and her family were fearful of what it meant.  Maybe because of Darth Vader and the knights of Ren - people are now fearful of the force.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Yora on January 09, 2016, 10:55:15 AM
I would say that since the 90s, Star Wars has been left in the hands of too few people with too much free reign who don't really understand what the collective effort in the 70s and 80s had produced.
I don't see why Abrams would be any more capable than Lucas. He seems to be making many of the same mistakes again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on January 09, 2016, 03:34:01 PM
I would say that since the 90s, Star Wars has been left in the hands of too few people with too much free reign who don't really understand what the collective effort in the 70s and 80s had produced.
I don't see why Abrams would be any more capable than Lucas. He seems to be making many of the same mistakes again.

i was just reading something that might make you hopeful, yora!

this time around, it seems like it's more of a collaborative effort.  see the bits about jj and rian collaborating to make adjustments to the story in 7 which would make sense in 8.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/jj-abrams-responds-rip-criticism-853352

it seems super-interesting to me that different writers are cooperating in the hand-off of all the different episodes within the same trilogy.  has that ever been done?  off the top of my head, the only thing i can think of that's close is the alien franchise.  tho, even then the directors didn't cooperate, they just picked up where the last movie left off.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on January 10, 2016, 11:37:00 PM
Now THAT'S a movie I'd pay to see!!!

(http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/arKKPLV_700b.jpg)

And since it's all spoilers free now :

(http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aOVvy52_700b.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on January 11, 2016, 01:01:09 PM
I like that comic because it reminds me of something Calvin would do with his snowmen.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ScarletBea on January 15, 2016, 08:26:34 PM
I finally watched it today :D
I'm a little bit in love with Rey, I think she is AMAZING ;D

And now I'll read all those spoiler thingies...

ETA: people usually ask you "when did you start feeling old?" - here I am: apart from the characters from the old trilogy, everyone is.just.so.young :o ;)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on January 15, 2016, 11:14:02 PM
I finally watched it today :D
I'm a little bit in love with Rey, I think she is AMAZING ;D

And now I'll read all those spoiler thingies...

ETA: people usually ask you "when did you start feeling old?" - here I am: apart from the characters from the old trilogy, everyone is.just.so.young :o ;)
I think the old thing happened with me the first time I saw TFA and I briefly overheard the father behind me explaining the Deathstar to his kids. Then you suddenly realise that ANH came out 40 years ago, and I was one of those people who saw it in the cinema when it was originally released.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on January 20, 2016, 07:53:48 PM
It was just announced that the next movie will be delayed about 7 months will now come out in December 2017 (where it will supposedly be competing against Avatar 2) instead of May 2017.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Eli_Freysson on January 20, 2016, 08:21:32 PM
It was just announced that the next movie will be delayed about 7 months will now come out in December 2017 (where it will supposedly be competing against Avatar 2) instead of May 2017.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Raptori on January 20, 2016, 08:33:17 PM
Well that sucks.  >:(
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: ultamentkiller on January 20, 2016, 09:53:12 PM
There's something coming out this December to tide us over I think. Star Wars 3.5? Rogue One.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_One
Looks interesting.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on January 21, 2016, 02:01:29 PM
There's something coming out this December to tide us over I think. Star Wars 3.5? Rogue One.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_One
Looks interesting.

My guess is that they're going to try to own the Christmas season for the next 5 years.  Rogue One comes out this December and then Episode 8 will be in 2017.  I imagine the Han Solo prequel will be in 2018 and then Episode 9 in 2019.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on February 13, 2016, 12:50:23 PM
Found this cool little piece of fanart. Not usually a fan of movie fanarts, but this one is quite stunning I think :

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/a5/ba/f7/a5baf77001838c4e436a77f51e277604.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Eli_Freysson on February 13, 2016, 04:29:29 PM
I quite like this one:

http://yggi11.deviantart.com/art/Rey-579943051

(I don't know how to put deviantart pictures up in forums)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: xiagan on February 13, 2016, 07:36:27 PM
Did someone say cool fanart? :)

(http://i.imgur.com/9rFkV6U.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/npeJL3m.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/JX7e1fl.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/YV2xSiC.jpg)
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on February 13, 2016, 10:47:12 PM
I quite like this one:

http://yggi11.deviantart.com/art/Rey-579943051

(I don't know how to put deviantart pictures up in forums)

Hmmm. See, that's what I don't like in fanart. I don't get the point of this, because while this guy has obvious talent and could do hyper realistic characters, in the case of Rey, we have movie stills. Painstakingly copying from the original without originality, just with crazy skill, sorts of misses the point, in my eyes.
But then again even back in art school I felt like people doing hyper-realistic paintings and drawings were losing their time.  ;D

The Calvin ones are awesome. It's a perfect cross.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Eli_Freysson on February 14, 2016, 08:15:28 PM
SNL isn't shown in Iceland, but I just found out about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlKVj_L7-kU

And it rocks.  ;D
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on April 06, 2016, 01:16:20 PM
Got the DVD last night and watched the movie for the second time.  It still holds up nicely on a second viewing and I'm 100% convinced now that Han knows who Rey is.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on April 06, 2016, 02:13:38 PM
Got the DVD last night and watched the movie for the second time.  It still holds up nicely on a second viewing and I'm 100% convinced now that Han knows who Rey is.

I did the same thing. My 2 year old even watched it with me (she likes chewbacca), which makes me happy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on April 06, 2016, 02:34:31 PM
Got the DVD last night and watched the movie for the second time.  It still holds up nicely on a second viewing and I'm 100% convinced now that Han knows who Rey is.

I did the same thing. My 2 year old even watched it with me (she likes chewbacca), which makes me happy.

Wow! How did the stabbing daddy part work out though? xD
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on April 06, 2016, 03:08:44 PM
Got the DVD last night and watched the movie for the second time.  It still holds up nicely on a second viewing and I'm 100% convinced now that Han knows who Rey is.

I did the same thing. My 2 year old even watched it with me (she likes chewbacca), which makes me happy.

Wow! How did the stabbing daddy part work out though? xD

Oh that was easy! Cookies distract the best of us! Though, I didn't want to see that again either. Its a wound that will never heal.

(http://img.ifcdn.com/images/afd2d19aa4c067246b91ba0541ee172c87ae4b8f88ea4b0731c0148331b430aa_1.jpg)

It will always be too soon.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on April 06, 2016, 03:20:43 PM
Got the DVD last night and watched the movie for the second time.  It still holds up nicely on a second viewing and I'm 100% convinced now that Han knows who Rey is.

I did the same thing. My 2 year old even watched it with me (she likes chewbacca), which makes me happy.

My 2 year old daughter keeps saying she wants to name her baby sister Chewbacca (when I say no to that she decides on Cinderella instead).  She likes Chewy a lot, however when we were at Disney a few months ago we went to a Chewy character picture greet thing and she completely freaked out.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on April 06, 2016, 03:32:25 PM
Got the DVD last night and watched the movie for the second time.  It still holds up nicely on a second viewing and I'm 100% convinced now that Han knows who Rey is.

I did the same thing. My 2 year old even watched it with me (she likes chewbacca), which makes me happy.

My 2 year old daughter keeps saying she wants to name her baby sister Chewbacca (when I say no to that she decides on Cinderella instead).  She likes Chewy a lot, however when we were at Disney a few months ago we went to a Chewy character picture greet thing and she completely freaked out.
Yeah, that's probably the normal response lol. Same thing happens with the mouse from chuck-e-cheese. Its all fun and games until he comes out in real life.

We got her Star Wars bandaids a while back. She also has Disney princess ones which she now refuses. Star Wars bandaids only from now on.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Nora on April 06, 2016, 04:13:53 PM
Adorable.

I used to watch the Star Wars movies on rote back on VHS. I had little figurines and all the books detailing the universe, the ones like mini encyclopedia. Also had a super sweet green light saber that had batteries in it and actually made noises if you hit it hard enough. It's a shame though since my siblings were all much much younger than me, and the oldest was a girl uninterested in Star Wars, I never got to really bash anybody with it.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on April 06, 2016, 10:29:18 PM
Got the DVD last night and watched the movie for the second time.  It still holds up nicely on a second viewing and I'm 100% convinced now that Han knows who Rey is.

I did the same thing. My 2 year old even watched it with me (she likes chewbacca), which makes me happy.
There's a Star Wars based car advert down here, with all the kids dressed up as stormtroopers and their dog (a fluffy little thing that I've always referred to as a 'moccasin on a string') has the Chewie bandoliers draped over him, it's very cute.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Eli_Freysson on April 06, 2016, 10:54:21 PM
Say, I'm interested in the new Star Wars EU. Has anyone here read any of the books associated with the new canon?
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: tebakutis on April 07, 2016, 12:26:30 AM
Say, I'm interested in the new Star Wars EU. Has anyone here read any of the books associated with the new canon?

I've only read one book from the new EU (Lost Stars by Claudia Gray) and it was decent, though it does suffer a bit from cameo-ism (is that a word?). The two protagonists (who are both new to the universe) end up tangentially crossing paths with pretty much all of the big players in the movies, which felt a bit contrived at times. Also, it does suffer a bit from being limited in that it can't change any events from the movies, so by design the protagonists have to be sidelined in certain cases ... but not enough that I wouldn't recommend the book.

The main hook is that the two protagonists start as friends, end up in love, and then end up participating on different sides of all the big battles from the movies - one for the Rebellion and one for the Empire. Since that's revealed in the description, it's not a spoiler. But the main draw for me was seeing a "ground level" view of the big battles from the movies (Yavin, Hoth, Endor, and so on) ... basically, the way the average person on each side experienced it, rather than the movie heroes. And the book does a good job there.

Lost Stars didn't reach the heights of Zahn's trilogy for me (of all the EU that went away, the first Timothy Zahn trilogy is by far the thing I'm saddest to lose) but I found it an enjoyable read.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Hedin on April 07, 2016, 01:13:30 PM
Say, I'm interested in the new Star Wars EU. Has anyone here read any of the books associated with the new canon?

I'm also a little interested but when I see how much is out there I'm a little hesitant about putting my toes in the water.  What I hope they do is once Rebels is over maybe they create a show that takes place during the OT, when that is over then go to the period between the OT and the new trilogy, and so on.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on April 07, 2016, 08:05:30 PM
Say, I'm interested in the new Star Wars EU. Has anyone here read any of the books associated with the new canon?


I've read Aftermath. It was decent. I just put a big chunk of the books I am interesting in reading on Goodreads. So sometime soon, i'll try some more.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: m3mnoch on April 14, 2016, 07:00:05 PM
just saw this:
http://mashable.com/2016/04/14/star-wars-force-awakens-comparison/

pretty sweet.  they do a minute-by-minute walkthrough of the whole movie comparing it to the original star wars.

verdict:
The verdict
Out of 12 reels, I found similarities in 6. In 3 of those 6, the similarity was kind of a stretch.

That leaves us with 3 reels, or 30 minutes of a 2 hour 10-minute movie, that felt uncomfortably similar. This sounds about right. I would venture to suggest that number actually makes The Force Awakens more of its own movie than, say, the prequels. (Revenge of the Sith echoed an awful lot from Return of the Jedi, quite deliberately.) 

So The Force Awakens is categorically not Star Wars, though it's easy to see why some viewers walked away with that conclusion. Will the as-yet-untitled Episode VIII have the darker, more mature feel of Empire Strikes Back? We'll find out in 2017.

Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: night_wrtr on July 16, 2016, 10:37:05 PM
Really awesome q&a with Mark Hamill from the Star Wars celebration a couple days back. I haven't seen him outside of the movies, I was suprised about how funny he is!

And he does a Joker scene halfway through.  8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN_Fyjw0UCY
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: treadmikeway on July 17, 2016, 04:46:08 PM
Say, I'm interested in the new Star Wars EU. Has anyone here read any of the books associated with the new canon?

Yeah, I've read Lords of the Sith, Aftermath, and Bloodline. They were each all right. Lords of the Sith was...OK. Bloodline is pretty interesting–lots of familiar faces. Aftermath's style is kind of off-putting. Worked better as an audiobook.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Eli_Freysson on July 17, 2016, 04:50:10 PM
Say, I'm interested in the new Star Wars EU. Has anyone here read any of the books associated with the new canon?

Yeah, I've read Lords of the Sith, Aftermath, and Bloodline. They were each all right. Lords of the Sith was...OK. Bloodline is pretty interesting–lots of familiar faces. Aftermath's style is kind of off-putting. Worked better as an audiobook.

Alright. What about the Force Awakens tie-in novel? I don't normally read tie-in books, but the new movie has done the impossible and revived my interest in SW.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: treadmikeway on July 17, 2016, 05:10:24 PM
Yeah, I did read that one. I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would.

It was a bit odd, as there were almost no blocks of description whatsoever. Pretty much, if you didn't have the movie playing in your mind the whole time, I don't know what it is you would have been able to visualize. Now, I don't know anyone who would read it without seeing the movie first, so I suppose that's fine. But still. Just kind of...flat? Like soda losing the carbonation flat.

However, there were a lot of cool scenes in the story that didn't happen in the movie. They fleshed out little points here and there, and they added some good things to consider, and that's why I would recommend reading it.

Plus, it's pretty breezy and easy to crank it out. I think it was less than or just right around 300 pages. And since you know the bulk of the story already, it just goes by.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: The Gem Cutter on August 20, 2016, 06:34:20 PM
Anyone familiar with an ancient (possibly the first) SW EU book "Splinter of the Mind's Eye"? It fell between Episode IV and V.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on August 21, 2016, 06:38:45 AM
Anyone familiar with an ancient (possibly the first) SW EU book "Splinter of the Mind's Eye"? It fell between Episode IV and V.
Yep, really enjoyed that, although it's been years since I last read it. Alan Dean Foster after he worked on the novelisation of A New Hope, or as it was called back then: Star Wars: The Adventures of Luke Skywalker, with Lucas, got permission to write a sequel; which was called Splinter of the Minds Eye. After the book came out, Lucas took things in a very different direction for The Empire Strikes Back, which kind of made a lot of Splinter of the Minds Eye redundant. Brian Daley's Han Solo trilogy which covered some of Han and Chewie's adventures prior to meeting Luke and Ben in that cantina at Mos Eisley was also very good.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: The Gem Cutter on August 21, 2016, 07:09:22 AM
I loved the Yuzzem! And the saber fight is a very good example of how to write such scenes well.
Title: Re: Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens
Post by: Elfy on August 21, 2016, 10:36:26 PM
I loved the Yuzzem! And the saber fight is a very good example of how to write such scenes well.
The Yuzzem were cool. In fact most of what ADF created in that book was really fun SF of the time. His Icerigger trilogy is also quite fun.