December 12, 2019, 04:58:38 PM

Author Topic: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)  (Read 7792 times)

Offline Magnus Hedén

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2019, 09:14:26 AM »
So many characters I miss, though I do get that it's impossible to put them all in. But no Vargo Hoat ("Kingthlayer!") and no Strong Belwas ("I let every man cut me once before I kill them") made me sad.

However, major changes to the story of existing ones upset me much more, particularly when it's to turn them more tropey and often make them fit a shittily patriarchal narrative (like adding rape to most of the strong women's backstories -- how else does a woman become strong, right? Sigh.)
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Offline Peat

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2019, 10:49:06 AM »
That is, of course, impossible to say. But under the circumstances, I think it would be hard to cram all that character development into 6ish hours of TV while also showing the big battles and bombastic scenes. In season 1 we skip past the battles, now they take up full episodes.

I would have liked to have seen Dany's change more clearly and convincingly. I would have liked for a lot of things to have been done differently. But they weren't, and here we are. I don't pretend that my liking the books and the early seasons gives me any right to claim how the later seasons should have been executed.

And I don't begin to pretend that I know the last bit about writing, directing, or producing a massive TV show with even more massive expectations on it -- all on a deadline. All I know is writing is damn difficult, and the writers here don't have the choice of working on the script for eight years (plus) until it's the best it can be, like GRRM has chosen to do (which is the context of his comment about owing his fans his best work).

Maybe I'm being harsh, but I'm inclined to say that if you've got a body of work to look at and the creation in question is far inferior to the rest of it, you can be safe in that saying they didn't do their best unless there is some huge external pressure on them outside of their making.

Only having sixish hours was their choice. GRRM and HBO both wanted extra and/or bigger seasons; Benioff and Weiss won that fight. That's on them.

Running a massive show - they've showed they can do what it takes. The only thing that changes there is the weight of expectations but it's pretty much a rule of life that if you fail in a huge pressure situation, the most important thing in perceptions is that you failed. The pressure isn't a pass.

I can't be absolutely certain, but I think it goes beyond reasonable doubt that this isn't their best work. And the main thing that people cite as the difficulty/flaw - the rushed feeling we got from a short final season - was their choice.

So where are we in terms of acceptable fan reactions given the very strong likelihood that we didn't receive their best work?
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Offline Magnus Hedén

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2019, 11:41:57 AM »
Of course I think people are allowed to be upset, sad, angry, and disappointed, and of course people should be able to voice that. But personally I think the line is crossed when fans start making demands. It's a basic misunderstanding of who owns the creative project.

The creators own the project, but not their fan's reactions. The fans own their reactions, but not the project.

Crossing that line from either direction is wrong. Creators have no right to tell fans what they should think and feel about their creation. Fans have no right to tell creators how and when to create (and there's a difference between expressing disappointment in a delayed book or the ending of a TV series and making a demand that it be handled a certain way).

I don't know the exact background, but if B&W were offered more time for ending the series but elected to make it shorter, I think that was a huge mistake. That being said, from what I understand they've been running the show pretty much from day one, so it's really their call. If it was a business decision from HBO that curbed the creative department, fans would be much more justified to make demands on HBO. But if the creators of the entire series decided it should end this way... then that's the way it ended.

To me it's obvious that fans are entitled to dislike B&W's decision, but they're not entitled to make that decision for them.
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Offline Peat

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2019, 02:40:39 PM »
Of course I think people are allowed to be upset, sad, angry, and disappointed, and of course people should be able to voice that. But personally I think the line is crossed when fans start making demands. It's a basic misunderstanding of who owns the creative project.

The creators own the project, but not their fan's reactions. The fans own their reactions, but not the project.

Crossing that line from either direction is wrong. Creators have no right to tell fans what they should think and feel about their creation. Fans have no right to tell creators how and when to create (and there's a difference between expressing disappointment in a delayed book or the ending of a TV series and making a demand that it be handled a certain way).

I don't know the exact background, but if B&W were offered more time for ending the series but elected to make it shorter, I think that was a huge mistake. That being said, from what I understand they've been running the show pretty much from day one, so it's really their call. If it was a business decision from HBO that curbed the creative department, fans would be much more justified to make demands on HBO. But if the creators of the entire series decided it should end this way... then that's the way it ended.

To me it's obvious that fans are entitled to dislike B&W's decision, but they're not entitled to make that decision for them.

This might be semantic but the petition isn't making any demands of how the story should be told. It's simply saying it wasn't good enough and should be redone. It's not seeking to interfere with the creative process, it's just a total rejection of the outcome.

You might regard that as still crossing the line but I'm not sure I do.

What's more - the HBO executives could have stepped in at any time and told them "No", just like editors and publishers can. Creators don't have the unrestricted right to do what they want once money gets involved. The fans have no formal financial control, but they have provided a large amount of the money needed for the show to continue. The fans have no legal rights, but are their moral rights en masse that hugely different? Again, I'm not sure what I think here. Would they have crossed the line if they'd launched a mass petition asking/demanding more than six episodes and threatening a boycott if not, back when it was announced there'd only be six episodes? Or would they simply be trying to use their financial power like a studio would?

Finally - is that you answer as to what fans should be allowed to do when the creators keep to unspoken contracts, or what they should be allowed to do when its broken?
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Online Skip

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2019, 04:15:42 PM »
I lost interest in the books with Feast, so I was actually enjoying the TV version. It moved along better, and the visuals were great. Much of the acting was good, though a couple of the main actors had terribly limited range. But let's put all that to one side. To me, there's something larger at play here than personal preference.

GoT is a cultural phenomenon, in the same way as Star Wars or Star Trek or LotR. It doesn't really matter what B&W want to do with the story. When they undertook it, they were in some sense answerable to the whole culture. They're architecting a myth. And, to this viewer at least, it doesn't look like they took it all that seriously. What I saw were numerous examples of standard TV drama devices and tropes hauled out in service of trying to get Martin's sprawl onto the screen. Git 'er done. In purely TV dramatic series terms, they did fine. They got it done.

But the fans--let's call them viewers because I'm not a fan and I still had these expectations and hopes--the viewers wanted the grand legend that was promised. It was promised by the books and that promise was renewed in the early episodes. They led us to believe we were going to get a grand ending that was worthy of the story.

We didn't. So we're pissed. The anger doesn't stem from this inept scene or that unlikely twist or the dropped characters. Those were just the symptoms, the manifestations. The viewer anger stems from bitter disappointment.

Stories matter. Big stories matter in big ways, and this is a big story. And they muffed it. The reasons aren't reasons, they're just excuses because we were _promised_. It is a sad thing when a story teller fails the reader (or viewer). The bigger the story, the deeper the disappointment.

And that's precisely the point where B&W appear either not to understand, or not to care.


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Offline Nora

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2019, 06:49:24 PM »
This might be semantic but the petition isn't making any demands of how the story should be told. It's simply saying it wasn't good enough and should be redone. It's not seeking to interfere with the creative process, it's just a total rejection of the outcome.

You might regard that as still crossing the line but I'm not sure I do.

Well ok, and what do the fans want, exactly?? It's not like a TV show can be redone off brilliant material, when the brilliant mind behind the story isn't writing or providing the story.
What if the last season is redone, and extended, and the fans still think it isn't on par with GRRM's plans? And what if production starts, and GRRM finally releases Winds of Winter next year, as he's been promising now?
Are you saying that a book series and tv show should go on in parallel with totally different content?

Fans need to chill out. I think their exigences are ludicrous and childish. I was NOT happy with the stupid, unnecessary liberties taken with the end of the Terror tv show, and I didn't go and rant and ask for a more faithful version to be made.
It's done, and maybe one day in some years, someone else will make a tv show of it, or a film, whatever. Who knows it may also suck!
In the meantime, HBO will air up to 4 new spin off series on GoT, with god knows what kind of writing, and fans will simply gobble it up and HBO will bury complaints just fine that way.

I think people need to get real. There is no way their opinion matters now that the show has ended. What are they going to do? Cancel their HBO accounts, and reopen them for the next GoT series or His Dark Material?


edit : Also, I found this and thought many might approve. :-p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAhKOV3nImQ
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 07:16:36 PM by Nora »
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Offline Peat

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2019, 07:33:14 PM »
This might be semantic but the petition isn't making any demands of how the story should be told. It's simply saying it wasn't good enough and should be redone. It's not seeking to interfere with the creative process, it's just a total rejection of the outcome.

You might regard that as still crossing the line but I'm not sure I do.

Well ok, and what do the fans want, exactly?? It's not like a TV show can be redone off brilliant material, when the brilliant mind behind the story isn't writing or providing the story.
What if the last season is redone, and extended, and the fans still think it isn't on par with GRRM's plans? And what if production starts, and GRRM finally releases Winds of Winter next year, as he's been promising now?
Are you saying that a book series and tv show should go on in parallel with totally different content?

Fans need to chill out. I think their exigences are ludicrous and childish. I was NOT happy with the stupid, unnecessary liberties taken with the end of the Terror tv show, and I didn't go and rant and ask for a more faithful version to be made.
It's done, and maybe one day in some years, someone else will make a tv show of it, or a film, whatever. Who knows it may also suck!
In the meantime, HBO will air up to 4 new spin off series on GoT, with god knows what kind of writing, and fans will simply gobble it up and HBO will bury complaints just fine that way.

I think people need to get real. There is no way their opinion matters now that the show has ended. What are they going to do? Cancel their HBO accounts, and reopen them for the next GoT series or His Dark Material?

*shrugs* I don't know what the fans signing the petition want; I've only talked to one person who's said they've signed it. I suspect many of them know nothing would ever happen and simply want to stick their middle finger up.

I suspect most of them are pretty chill as well, except for when other fans say things like "chill out".
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Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2019, 08:05:03 AM »
I. Am. Not. Chill!!!!

Wait, what were we talking about again?

Offline D_Bates

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #83 on: May 31, 2019, 01:50:04 PM »
I'm totally with Nora. At risk of triggering, and having read the comments with great intrigue, GoT has always been more hype than substance. Complaining of characters teleporting around is especially interesting since the very reason I gave up on the first book was illogical plotting and character movements. Catelyn in particular baffled me as to why or how she managed to travel to King's Landing only to be sent straight back home where she somehow bumps into Tyrion in a situation where one or the other is doing something entirely illogical for it to occur.

In terms of character motivations, those magical shades of grey--aka, a character without a clear motivation--I found nothing more head scratching than why Danaerys decided to go on a campaign for the Iron Throne, an object that she'd never seen, had no influence over the land she grew up in, was her brother's quest--a brother she outright dismissed in his entirety when she turned her back on him to let him die--and was arguably the source of all her misery. But power and birthright, I guess? Likewise the King's efforts to assassinate her seemed more a case of force plotting to create drama than any logical reason he had to fear she was going to depose him.

People attack this last season because GRR Martin thought it needed to go to 10. I don't doubt that. But he also said the book series was going to be finished in 3. Having wasted 800+ pages on the first book for it to ultimately go nowhere, I never thought he had an ending in mind, and nothing I've followed from the series since has convinced me that's the case. This is a magical story where winter is always coming but never actually arrives, and I believe he laid out in the opening when he stated there hadn't been a winter for centuries.
You can argue that in the course of a story you have diversions, but you have to question whether or not an author's grasping at straws to drag things out when you introduce a formerly dead Targaryen male five books in, just because you done fucked up by killing off the original male so you didn't have to deal with how his master plan of selling out his sister for a cavalry army to attack a fortified port city across the ocean would pan out.
Spoiler for Hiden:
It doesn't.

From my understanding the plot in the books has been coming apart since the third, and every TV series since 5 has been panned as 'disappointing'. Interestingly people here acknowledge how 1-5 was awesome, and 7 was a let down, but completely forget 6 even existed. People shouted down season 7 as 'filler to build to the big finale', and now they have that finale they're saying they need even more filler to bulk it out? The logic and reasoning behind the shock twist hooks never made any sense, they only worked early on because you put your faith in the creator that something WAS going to happen next as a result of them. 'Oh my God, the King just got killed by a random boar while hunting. How does this move things on?'

Then there are those who are now upset with the portrayal of women. I don't know if you're aware, but this was just how women were treated in medieval times. At least that's what's been drummed into my head whenever I've questioned this in the past. Then again, a famous American author once said of 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' that if you want a bestseller make sure to sprinkle in a healthy dose of misogyny. Sex also sells hadn't you heard, so it's also not surprising that softporn in a primetime TV slot draws a lot of eyeballs. But no, it's all about those unbelievable characters and tight exquisite plotting.

At the end of the day people are entitled to enjoy what they like, and the deep analysis of character motivations even in this forum thread is a goldmine of interest, even if I think people are filling in the blanks. But that's the magic of stories. How they are interpreted is unique to each of us. As much as Martin's characters made me want to gauge my eyes out, I thoroughly enjoyed his world description. I still rate his scene with Eddard and the King in the crypt up there with the best I've ever read.

But yeah, it is what it is. GoT was never going to be the next LotR, because it never had the clear cut mission toward an ending from the get go. It was just a big fancy world made up of big fancy feuding families, most of which were probably copied from some obscure history book and renamed with odd spellings of real world names. But now it's done, winter succumbed to global warming, democracy won out and brought Starbucks to the kingdom, and now it's time to all move on to different things. Petitions to remake the series, attacks on the directors, using it to foreshadow the collapse of other franchises like Star Wars, all splashed in with GRR Martin love letters is taking the hype to an unhealthy level.
Spoiler for Hiden:
newsflash, Star Wars doesn't need GoT or its directors to run itself into the ground
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 02:06:31 PM by D_Bates »
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Offline S. K. Inkslinger

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2019, 08:08:53 AM »
I've watched the finale of GOT, and I have to say that it is quite better than I had thought it's going to be. There were some blurbs/ errors and disappointments for sure, but it's still pretty high in quality compared to other shows. The ending is kind of bittersweet but I guess everyone left alive kind of got what they wanted in the end.

Offline isos81

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2019, 11:17:13 AM »
I remember seeing a meme about Tyrion saying "who has a better story than Bran the Broken".  This was the header of the meme and there were 9 characters including the girl whose brother was killed and carried Bran  ;D Even that girl had a better story :)
Kallor shrugged. 'I've walked this land when the T'lan Imass were but children. I've commanded armies a hundred thousand strong. I've spread the fire of my wrath across entire continents, and sat alone upon tall thrones. Do you grasp the meaning of this?'

'Yes' said Caladan Brood. 'You never learn'

Offline S. K. Inkslinger

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2019, 04:34:27 AM »
I remember seeing a meme about Tyrion saying "who has a better story than Bran the Broken".  This was the header of the meme and there were 9 characters including the girl whose brother was killed and carried Bran  ;D Even that girl had a better story :)

But but, he's got them CCTV eyes and could access his own Branhub though (if you knew what I meant)  ;D.

Online Skip

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #87 on: June 10, 2019, 12:42:54 AM »
I just saw Avengers Endgame (been sick; finally well enough to go to a public theater!) and the difference could not have been more striking. Where GoT ends in such a mess that people have spent weeks explaining and justifying it to each other, Endgame tied up the story with an expert hand. That story arguably sprawled even more than GoT, but everyone's individual arc came to a satisfying conclusion. Nearly miraculous, considering how many hands were at the helm.

So, no, I don't let the creators of the GoT series of the hook, not even a little bit. Feige &cetera knew they were telling a cultural epic, took their responsibility seriously (which means they took the *fans* seriously), and delivered a conclusion that was worthy of the story that brought us there.

For all of its waywardness, the Star Wars saga also has seemed consistently like the creators were trying. They missed more often than did the Marvel folk, but there too it seemed they knew they were telling an epic, and I'm grateful to them for it. The GoT crew seemed closer to the makers of 1950s SF flicks. Who cares if it makes sense. Show some flesh, throw in some scares, some monsters, and take home the money. If it's just the B movie at a double feature, I don't mind. But when it's a story that captures millions, you need to swing for the fences, not burn them down.

I've long since said my spiel on this. It's just that Endgame was so good, it reminded me why I was so disappointed with GoT.