Fantasy Faction

Fantasy Faction => Fantasy Movies, Comic Books & Video Games => Topic started by: m3mnoch on December 15, 2016, 11:51:41 PM

Title: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: m3mnoch on December 15, 2016, 11:51:41 PM
super excited to see this!  just booked our theater tickets for saturday afternoon.

it's crazy.  internal expectations for the movie are pretty tame.  i don't think anyone really knows what to expect since it's the first movie that's outside the main plotline and doesn't have a skywalker in it.

personally, i think it's going to kick ass.

so much excite!!
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on December 16, 2016, 12:14:02 AM
super excited to see this!  just booked our theater tickets for saturday afternoon.

it's crazy.  internal expectations for the movie are pretty tame.  i don't think anyone really knows what to expect since it's the first movie that's outside the main plotline and doesn't have a skywalker in it.

personally, i think it's going to kick ass.

so much excite!!

Seeing it first thing tomorrow morning. My company rented out a theater for everyone. Should be a good time.

Then I'll probably see it two more times just to flip the bird to the white nationalist idiots calling for people to boycott it because the entire cast isn't white men, and that makes then cry. :)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on December 16, 2016, 12:41:03 AM
I saw it this morning before going to work. Overall a great movie but with mixed feelings still floating around. I'll make a spoiler review when I get home.

But m3m, there are skywalkers in the movie. At the very least darth Vader makes a mean appearance and is The Skywalker
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: m3mnoch on December 16, 2016, 12:58:53 AM
I saw it this morning before going to work. Overall a great movie but with mixed feelings still floating around. I'll make a spoiler review when I get home.

But m3m, there are skywalkers in the movie. At the very least darth Vader makes a mean appearance and is The Skywalker

dude!!  spoilers!!
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on December 16, 2016, 01:13:05 AM
Huh... Did you not watch the trailer? Which shows Vader in it?

edit : I'm in the middle of the worst weekend of the year at work and my mom arrives saturday morning besides, so I'm gonna forgo writing anything for a while. Give y'all time to catch up.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: cupiscent on December 16, 2016, 04:46:29 AM
We have tickets (and babysitters) for Saturday night. I am so excited.

Part of what I'm most excited about with this movie is that, for the first time since 1999, it doesn't feel stupid to feel excited about a Star Wars movie. (Going into Force Awakens, I was quietly hopeful, but being excited seemed like asking to be kicked. And I actually enjoy many things about the prequel trilogy. I've written fanfic about the prequel trilogy. But overall, they're just not good.)

The other part, obvs, is that Jyn Erso looks kickass. \m/
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Lady Ty on December 16, 2016, 06:09:23 AM
Australia likes Rogue One (https://numero.co/reports/2016/12/16/rogue-one-flies-first-up) and it's not even school holidays everywhere yet  ;D

Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Rukaio_Alter on December 16, 2016, 07:27:25 AM
I saw it yesterday. And, like Nora, I enjoyed it but I've got a lot of mixed feelings about it.

See, the thing is, the movie has a genuinely really good third act/climactic battle, filled with tense, exhilarating action and a few heart-wrenching moments to go along with it... The only problem is that the first two acts are a muddled, over-plotted mess, where characterisation is more or less shoved out of the way to make room for more meandering plot threads. Seriously, the characterisation for most of the cast is a mess, filled with questionable character arcs and backstory/exposition in the place of actual development (Jyn in particular gets hit by this one). Which is a shame because there are a lot of moments in the (again still fantastic) third act which would've hit all the more harder had the film done a better job of making us care about the characters.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of stuff to like (like the exploration of the greyer side of the Rebellion and Vader who owns every second he's on screen) and the third act is worth the price of admission by itself. But it's definitely a flawed movie and certainly no Force Awakens (although it did have the grand space battle that movie was missing). I'd probably give it a B-.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on December 16, 2016, 11:02:29 AM
Yes, and weirdly enough, it's not the side characters who have it the roughest, but Jyn herself. Her backstory is pretty much everything you see in the trailer, which was very surprising.
It means we follow around someone whose ideas and feelings about the rebellion/empire around her are mostly unpredictable and unknown. We can't really appreciate her changes because we don't know where she starts from.
They kind of tell us, but it's not what you expect out of a goof movie. You're here to see stuff, not have side dialogue fill you in on what you need to know.

Now the two things that still bum me out :

The first was the pace and how it often ruined the third act.
The first act was good, but choppy. We discover a greyer rebellion, storm troopers in dirty armor, impatiently waiting for their rotation out of whatever shithole they got assigned to. Much realism, wow!
But a lot of time was used there to weird ends, for weird plot lines, as Rukaio says, that could have been given to give room to the deaths in the third act.
I mean, I was afraid they wouldn't kill their darlings, somehow, but man, do they tear through them! Sometimes it's well done. The asian Jedi (one thing that pisses me off in this movie is that the cast's names is unintelligible without looking them up on the net) was totally badass and had a great death, along with his buddy.
Others were cut so short by the editing, that I had no time to feel anything before I was back to some space speed chase, cut, someone else dies, cut, back on the planet with a daddy memory, cut, someone dies, cut, space chase... etc.
It wasn't even like the music was doing an incredible build up,folding over each death like a leit motive. People just died like flies, more or less willingly, but with too little time, or actual backstory, for us to really feel their loss.

The second thing was more of an anecdote, something they did both really well, and really poorly in the same movie.
It's the matter of specialised technology. Throughout the film some people struggle to understand what this or that is, and how to use it. There is the "master switch" ("what does it look like!!") and there is the data retrieving bot with handles, where they portrayed the fumbling around really well.
And then, Jane, whose backstory we know virtually nothing about, has to "realign" a bit antenna, and as soon as she's told that by the machine, she turns around to a metal gangway leading away from the main platform and above nothingness, to go to the different machine that changes the parabola alignment.
PLEASE. How does she know it's to be done there, and which lever to push? Is she a communication experts?
Then, why is that simple lever not on the main body of the console? The design sucks.
But most importantly, the moment you see the metal gangway, you do a lot of internal groaning, which becomes entirely justified.. Seriously, it's got to be the biggest star wars trope by now.

Vader was amazing, the last person we see on screen as well, I don't know how they pulled that one out!
The acting was good, the main guy was pretty dislikeable right until the end, a very realistic character, besides his entire absence of backstory as well, you imagine him up just fine.
Mads Mikkelsen does amazingly well for the few minutes he has, though the dad/daughter relationship was a tiny bit pulled by the teeth.
I'd also give it a B-. B for entertainment, the minus for the problems that stay with you.

The visuals were mind boggling, and OMG the sheer size of the names for the visual department in the credits. Solid block of hundreds of names. They all did an amazing job. They make the STAR WARS universe look better and better each episode.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on December 16, 2016, 05:56:13 PM
Man, I dunno if you guys watched the same movie I did. :)

Without spoilers, I'll say I didn't have any problems with the plot, characters, or pacing. Honestly, I thought it was close to a series best. It blew Force Awakens out of the water (while I loved the new characters in Force Awakens, I hated the recycled plot), it went in a completely original direction from every other movie yet made (war movie, really?), and it had some of the best lines since Empire (I won't spoil anything, but one line from Donnie Yen won the movie for me). And K-2SO! So good.

So yeah, respectfully disagreeing with Rukaio and Nora on the flaws. The whole movie was cake for me. Loved it, put it only behind Empire in my personal ranking, and look forward to seeing it again.

Go see it.

The other part, obvs, is that Jyn Erso looks kickass. \m/

Yes, she is. \m/
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on December 16, 2016, 07:49:46 PM
All you list here is stuff I definitely enjoyed. K2 was great and sassy, Asian Jedi was both kickass and full of his own sass.
But I beg you to tell me what half droid clone war dude who raised Jane brought to the plot? What kind of adult life Jyn led? It's murky, and underdeveloped.
Doesn't mean it wasn't awesome in other parts. If you managed to feel what you ought to despite the pacing issues I complained about, good for you! You might just be more sensitive or a faster processor than me.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on December 16, 2016, 10:19:24 PM
But I beg you to tell me what half droid clone war dude who raised Jane brought to the plot? What kind of adult life Jyn led? It's murky, and underdeveloped.
Doesn't mean it wasn't awesome in other parts. If you managed to feel what you ought to despite the pacing issues I complained about, good for you! You might just be more sensitive or a faster processor than me.

Heh, I don't think it's that! I think I just don't expect the characters to be as deep. For me, Jyn had an arc - I didn't mind so much that we didn't delve super deep into what led her to the point where the movie starts. I guess that feels like stuff we might get in an EU Jyn Erso book?

Honestly, most SW movies provide only surface character development, and that's generally fine with me. If you look at Han Solo, his big development in Ep IV was moving from "I'm in it for myself" to "I'll find my heroism and help these scrappy rebels" and even then, he was really helping Luke/Leia. I wouldn't call Han's journey (or the backstory represented in Ep IV alone) deep.

So I guess Jyn felt like Han to me? We did get that brief origin scene, but she kind of comes into the movie fully formed. She's become who she is because of stuff that went on before the movie and, honestly, doesn't matter to me in the context of it. What was important to me is you *did* see why her priorities changed over the course of the movie, and I did buy why her priorities changed. So that's all I needed.

So I think it's less me being more attuned to what was there and more me expecting less to be there in the first place :P
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on December 16, 2016, 11:00:43 PM
In my honest opinion, any movie, really any, that relies on me reading a book to truly enjoy it, is a failure as a movie.

Jyn and Solo are different, because Solo is obviously a "cheeky, reckless smuggler with a price on his head". That alone tells us a lot about what he does with his days, the kind of space ruffles he might have had, etc.
Jyn is much trickier, her dad was hiding from the empire, then raised by who we learn is an extremist rebel, but sort of abandoned that since? No idea what she's doing in jail beyond what is read out. "forgery of imperial papers, resisting arrest..." we have no idea what line she stands on, what job or what qualifications she has!
She doesn't like the empire, neither does she like the rebellion. So what was she doing to win her daily bred for 15 years?
She's hired because of her dad and adoptive dad, but not for any quality of her own. That makes her, imo, a much weirder character to grasp. Her motivations, all along, are pretty murky.

Han Solo, even Cap Cassian Andor (I'm telling you, I have to google their names!), seemed much better defined as "shallow characters".
One is a smuggler and pilot, the other a spy and a pilot. What is Jyn Arso, that makes her so good at aligning parabolas for off planet transmissions? I wish I had even a cliched 'base' to graft skills on her, beyond 'badass'.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: The Gem Cutter on December 17, 2016, 03:58:02 AM
Really enjoyed it. The Imperial Robot dude stole the show for me. The bit about the odds cracked me up! "They're high. They're really high."
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: cupiscent on December 17, 2016, 10:21:35 PM
Wheeeee, I enjoyed it so much. Was it perfect? No.* I felt the final reel got a bit bogged down in the aerial battle, the CGI paste-ins were mostly eerily good but just a touch surreal in movement (though maybe worked better in 3D?), I could have done without a Magical Blind Guy trope, and I would've really liked Jyn to have significant interaction with another woman (or at least to have explored her woman/mother issues a touch more, because I accept she has them, in addition to her abandonment issues). But I enjoyed it a lot.

* I was going to say "No movie is perfect" but then I remembered Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy which, for my money, is perfect.

Some more spoilery thoughts:
I love how brief, fiery, mysterious and truncated the character arcs are. I love that we're only just getting to know them when they are cut short. I found it really effective for the war-movie aspect of this one. People come burning into the Rebellion - we don't know from where, we don't know who they really are - but they write their deeds large, bold and tragically anonymous, then are lost to the cause. I loved the relationship between Jyn and Cassian, what they bring to each other, that they both grow, that they find meaning and peace. And that I mourn them fiercely because I want to spend so much more time with them.

Very fond of K-2SO's bleak, belligerent snark. I liked the world-building details - like the similarity between Jyn's childhood home and Luke's, right down to the blue milk. Liked the extended universe references (that I caught; I'm not familiar with the wider new canon, but I associate with people who talk about it a lot). Enjoyed playing Spot The Aussie. :D And I found it very satisfying that the reason that the Death Star is so easy to destroy is because it was designed to be so.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: The Gem Cutter on December 17, 2016, 10:23:59 PM
* I was going to say "No movie is perfect" but then I remembered Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy which, for my money, is perfect.
Love that film!! That and Imitation Game made me sit up and notice Mr. Cumberpatch.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on December 18, 2016, 04:40:59 AM
Do not open if you have not seen the movie! Seriously, do not open until you see the movie. You *will* be spoiled.

(reply to cupiscent in tags)

I love how brief, fiery, mysterious and truncated the character arcs are. I love that we're only just getting to know them when they are cut short. I found it really effective for the war-movie aspect of this one. People come burning into the Rebellion - we don't know from where, we don't know who they really are - but they write their deeds large, bold and tragically anonymous, then are lost to the cause.

Yes! Pardon me while I gush.

I think you encapsulated why I liked the movie so much, even if the characterization wasn't very complex or deep. This is *not* a movie about the start of Jyn Erso's story. This is not even the middle of her story. This is the end. This is the last thing she does before she dies, so naturally, it didn't focus too heavily on giving her a huge character changing arc and tons of backstory and development, and honestly, if they had, I feel that would have bogged things down. The *pacing* in this movie was excellent.

I mean, Jyn's going to end the movie by getting blown up by a Deathstar style nuclear bomb after leading a suicide mission that, quite literally, swung the tide of the war we see in A New Hope. She (and everyone who came with her) also had a pretty good idea that was how it would end for them, and did it anyway. You have this completely selfish character who, by the end of the movie, has changed and does a totally selfless thing. That's really all the arc I needed.

I'd love to know what made Jyn who she is (a badass warrior, emotionally closed off, and out for herself and no others) and we got a bit of that when she talks about Saw abandoning her after her father "abandoned" her, but too much of that and I think I would have been bored. It doesn't belong in this film. It wasn't important to what was going to happen, which was her finding a cause and finding the will inside herself to rally and inspire others.

Each of the characters felt like that - an already developed character reaching the end of their journey. I was curious what led them to become that way, but ultimately, in the context of "this is how the Rebellion stole the plans to the Death Star", the movie kept the focus where it needed to be. In a way, it followed the iceberg theory of writing - you reveal just the tip of something, yet the reader/watcher feels there's so much more beneath the surface. It makes these characters feel real.

Jyn overcomes abandonment and trust issues to truly depend on others and give her life for a cause. She was really the glue that brought all the others together - they may not have trusted each other, but each of them eventually trusted her, and that allowed her to organize them into the final "Rogue One" mission to seize the Death Star plans and, essentially, save the galaxy.

Cassian (and all the other "wet work" rebels) are desperately searching for a way to justify all the questionable things they've done in service to the Rebellion (more on that later). The suicide mission to Sharif gives them that. They know they aren't coming back, and they accept it, because this is their chance to save millions of lives to balance out those they've taken (presumably, including innocents).

Chirrut and Baze were guardians of an order that no longer existed - essentially, ronin who's master had been killed, while they live on. They clung to the ashes of Jedha with nothing until Jyn gave them a new cause to believe in. The end scene where Chirrut chants his prayer while walking blindly through Stormtrooper fire to activate the communications tower - you knew this was his death scene, but he was content because he knew he was serving a greater cause.

Bodhi was just trying to make amends for (presumably) something horrible he'd done while serving the Empire, possibly while under orders. We never learn what drove him to help Galen Erso, but it was obvious it was something that haunted him. He wanted to make up for something he'd done, and in the end, despite lacking the combat skills of the others, he makes that heroic dash through enemy fire to set the uplink.

The only one lacking a real arc was K-2S0, but even then, he finally got to hold a blaster and shoot people, like he'd always wanted. So that's a win, right? :)

But yeah, I can't necessarily explain *why* I loved this method so much, but it was just perfect for me. These characters had one movie to shine before they all died to save others - I liked that we got to see each of them in their proudest/most badass moment before that happened. Each went out like a boss.

I loved the relationship between Jyn and Cassian, what they bring to each other, that they both grow, that they find meaning and peace. And that I mourn them fiercely because I want to spend so much more time with them.

Did I mention how much I loved it that they *didn't* kiss at the end? God, I was so worried about that. When they were in the elevator after sending the plans, and later, when they were on the beach, I swear I was just chanting to myself "Don't kiss don't kiss don't kiss". There were hints that they were going to go the "people meet and fall madly in love in two days" route, and that would have been soooo cliche, yet it didn't.

They did become incredibly close, but as people who literally trusted each other with their lives. When they embrace at the end before the nuke takes them, it's not a romantic/sappy love thing ... it's a "we saved the galaxy together, BFF, so let's take some comfort before we die" moment, and I loved that so much. A romance would have felt forced, but a bond forged over a journey to a pyhrric victory? I bought that.

I also liked how neither of them won the argument after Galen (Jyn's dad) dies. At first, you think Jyn has the moral ground (how could you agree to assassinate my father?) but then Cassian comes right back at her by pointing out he's been fighting and sacrificing for others since he was 6, while she was fending for herself. It was a great character moment for Cassian because you finally see that he does carry grief around for all the immoral things he's had to do for the Rebellion. I mean, he opens the movie by literally shooting a friendly spy in the back, because it's "safer" for the Rebellion to kill him than risk him being captured.

And I found it very satisfying that the reason that the Death Star is so easy to destroy is because it was designed to be so.

Yes, that was a big win with me too. The fact that the Empire somehow *missed* that when designing this thing (and even the fact that shooting a torpedo into a single stupid exhaust port could somehow cause a chain reaction that blew up a moon size station) always bugged me. It felt cheap. Yet by retconning it so that flaw was intentional and created by Galen, who gave up his child and went deep undercover for decades just to give the Rebels a *chance* to stop this unspeakable weapon, it made it all feel great again.

And finally, finally (this was the huge one for me) - they admitted the Rebellion had shades of gray. This was, by far, the thing that has always bugged me the most about 4, 5, and 6. The Rebellion is good, and not just chaotic good - lawful good. They are the goodiest goody two shoes in the galaxy.

Moral compromises? Nope, never had to make those. Tough choices? Only which of our selfless pilots we're going to sacrifice in a selfless mission for selflessness. Collateral damage? Nope, that's never been a problem for our scrappy Rebellion. Not a single innocent was harmed in years of guerilla warfare.

As a kid, that was great, but as an adult, it felt so fake. You have a ragtag, underequipped, desperate group of people fighting a vastly superior military force. You know someone, somewhere, planted a bomb to take out a bunch of Stormtroopers knowing it might also frag a few innocent taxpayers, or someone had to assassinate a perfectly moral governor because it was the only way to destabilize the empire.

The reveal of Cassian and his "wet work" crew cemented that yes, the Rebellion did have to do some nasty, hard, immoral things for the greater good, and also showed us the people who had to do it. All the sudden the Rebellion had some genuinely gray characters, and it vastly improved the universe for me.

So yeah. A summary of the many, many reasons I loved this movie so much. There are more (like everything else about it) but this was the core of what cemented it as my second favorite (behind Empire). It totally did its own things, felt like a genuine Star Wars movie without being a rehash of anything before (I'm looking at you, Force Awakens!), it fixed plot holes from the originals, and it improved my sense of the Star Wars universe overall.

Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: The Gem Cutter on December 18, 2016, 07:46:09 AM
Thoughts on the grayness and grittiness of the Rebellion

When the informant was killed I nodded with understanding. It's not called "Cloak" after all, it's called "Cloak and Dagger", and where the dagger goes is foggier than some would like to believe. The film does a good job of showing the crucial and brutal nature of military intelligence, as does the Imitation Game, when they let the bombing raid happen (true story) to conceal the fact that they now can see into enemy plans and intentions.

Although this film doesn't beat the audience over the head with it, they treat the topic of intelligence very well. It's worth dying for and killing for, whether it's the Death's Star's true capabilities, the fact that it has vulnerabilities, what those vulnerabilities are, and how severe they are - these are incredibly important, victory-enablers, without which there simply couldn't be a victory at all.

ETA: Forgot to mention that just as important as this information is, it's just as important to conceal that A) this information exists; B) that its existence is known to your side; C) that your side has it; D) that your side understands its importance; and of course, E) that your side's going to use it. Hence killing the shaky informant.

And in the scope of a regime about to start blasting planets into dust, it's absolutely worth any number of shady acts to stop it. Doesn't mean it's fun to do or easy to live with, but there you have it.

The movie has a lot in common with For Whom the Bell Tolls, which also gets into being prepared to kill / killing people (theoretically) on one's own side, innocents, etc. As someone who has fought against and supported rebellions, I think this is realistic. Too often people ask "is it worth dying for?", a good question, but it's close cousin "is this worth killing for?" is a much more open-ended question than many believe, including myself at one time. For the record, I am not advocating or defending anything, or claiming anything about the morality/immorality of warfare; I am merely pointing to the realism and frequency of gray people doing gray things for gray reasons in the real world and its accurate depiction here.

One thing that bothered me was the Rebel Command's indecisive reaction to the reality of the Death Star's capabilities. It was sort of realistic, in that it depicts politicians doing what politicians do - whining, running, and focusing on their own survival/prosperity, but it's sad that without Jyn's decisive action and Luke's use of the Force, there's no way those babies were ever going to win. Sort of Force-enabled reverse Darwinism.

Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: cupiscent on December 18, 2016, 10:02:44 AM
Outrageously spoilery discussion continues, proceed at your own risk. :D


I'd love to know what made Jyn who she is (a badass warrior, emotionally closed off, and out for herself and no others) and we got a bit of that when she talks about Saw abandoning her after her father "abandoned" her

Yes, tbqh, I think we get all of the explanation we need. Why is she a badass warrior? She was basically raised as one of Saw's guards, apparently one of the best of them by age 16. Why is she emotionally closed off? She was abandoned by everyone - her father, her mother, Saw. (Not to mention running solo through the shady elements of the galaxy since.) Which is also why she's out for herself. No one else can be trusted. No one else will stick around. No one else cares. She says herself at one point, she's not used to anyone sticking around when things get messy.

Quote
Bodhi was just trying to make amends for (presumably) something horrible he'd done while serving the Empire, possibly while under orders.

He's the weak link, honestly. I felt he got over the octopoid mind-rape a little easily, and I never really got any sense that he, as a cargo pilot, could possibly have done anything that warranted amends. Then again, he'd been drafted in and trusted by Galen Erso, so clearly he's got strong reasons. I guess it's completely immaterial what they were, what matters for the story is what actions they cause him to undertake.

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Did I mention how much I loved it that they *didn't* kiss at the end? God, I was so worried about that. When they were in the elevator after sending the plans, and later, when they were on the beach, I swear I was just chanting to myself "Don't kiss don't kiss don't kiss". There were hints that they were going to go the "people meet and fall madly in love in two days" route, and that would have been soooo cliche, yet it didn't.

I was torn on that! lol. I mean, as I noted, I loved their relationship. It was equal and challenging and mutually fulfilling and a whole lot of other awesome stuff that often gets missed out of insta-bonds. So when they get their big finale - he stands by her, and she stands by him, and then after he falls, he comes back - I was very much omgkiss. And I would've bought it as a relief of tension (mine, theirs, everyone's!) and celebration of victory on many levels, not necessarily even as a romantic thing. But I am equally very, very happy that they didn't, because it suits the characters. They're both so tightly bound in themselves. In a way, a kiss would've been too glib, but their embrace is intimate, tender, vulnerable, and all the more powerful for that.

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...it fixed plot holes from the originals, and it improved my sense of the Star Wars universe overall.

A friend of mine (who is an enormous new-Star-Wars-canon nerd) pointed out that the movie also provides good coverage for the "how does Luke just waltz into a fighter squadron?" criticism of New Hope. Given the losses sustains both militarily and politically in this movie, it's hardly surprising they'll take any eager kid who can use the hardware.

One thing that bothered me was the Rebel Command's indecisive reaction to the reality of the Death Star's capabilities. It was sort of realistic, in that it depicts politicians doing what politicians do - whining, running, and focusing on their own survival/prosperity, but it's sad that without Jyn's decisive action and Luke's use of the Force, there's no way those babies were ever going to win. Sort of Force-enabled reverse Darwinism.

That aspect of the film made me really sad that all of the burgeoning-Rebellion stuff got cut from Revenge of the Sith. I mean, I was sad already, because that was basically Padme's arc of actually doing stuff in that movie, but it's also a sad lack because that stuff included Mon Mothma. And I am so interested in her, because she's the continuity of the Rebellion through the last days of the old Republic to the fall of the Empire. (Bail Organa's in there too, of course, but Mon survives because she's not on Alderaan.) She's such a politician, and I think her brief scenes in Rogue One gave some fascinating glimpses at a woman who's been walking fine lines and making hard decisions her entire adult life.

All that also makes Mon another candidate for reprimand on the topic of "a kid called Skywalker shows up in your Rebellion and you don't mention that other famous Skywalker you knew?" But hey, Plot Reasons, right? ;)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: m3mnoch on December 18, 2016, 06:57:09 PM
kk.  after digesting for a day, these are my thoughts on the movie.

spoiler-free tl;dr:  i loved it and i'm somewhere in between nora/rukaio and teb/cup in terms of character empathy.  i still loved episode seven WAY more because "omg, rey!"


- the first ten minutes felt like a tangle of plot-disaster and i was fairly sad in looking at the mess.  then, it all swept cleanly together, and i was happy.

- i never really attached to any of the characters.  i didn't necessarily need more from them either, tho.  they weren't bad, but they weren't rey.  i'm still in love with rey.  i guess mrs. m3mnoch just has to share me with a jedi.  did i mention my love for rey?

- i loved the admission of terrible with the dark and gritty gray areas the rebellion was working with.

- i LOVED, LOVED the character motivations throughout the movie.  every time i went, "that's dumb.  why would they do that?"  the character answered my question, most of the time almost immediately.  and, with fantastic answers.

for example, the epic one, "why would that scientist guy go willingly after they killed his family?  screw that!"  but, after it was answered, i was all, "holy shit!  that's brilliant!  THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING!!"

- the mini-blasts from the deathstar were kinda lame.  felt cheap.  i get the theory in that they're just warm-ups, but still.

- speaking of mini-blasts, saw gerrera was my favorite character in the film.  paranoid and fractured from the alliance, he proudly operated in that morally compromised grayness.  and his breathing mask!  tho, he was followed closely by k-2so for all the obvious reasons, most especially because he held off about a trillion storm troopers with his little blaster.

- speaking of k-2so, it took me about halfway through the movie to remember he was cgi and not a real robot hanging out with the actors.  my suspension of disbelief with him was super-thick and saucy.  goddamn brilliance.

- speaking of cgi:  i HATED grand moff tarkin every time he was on the screen.  the uncanny valley was too wide, and elicited hot, visceral anger from me.  (even his voice actor irritated me)  which was weird since i didn't read anything about him prior to seeing the movie, so the opinions of other internet nerds did nothing to saddle me with any predisposition.

but, yeah, they might as well have subbed in the model from star wars rebels.  leia also afflicted me in the same way, but luckily i only had to look at her for a brief moment at the end.

those cgi characters were the epitome of awful and hands-down the worst part of the movie.  awful, awful, awful, and jarring.

- i have many, many conflicting feels about all the death.  all the sacrifice.  on one hand, i wasn't super-invested in the characters, but on the other hand, i still tear up when i hear "the force is with me and i am one with the force", goddammit.  or when i think about bodhi finishing his call with the fleet after he plugged in the antenna.  shit.  stupid feels.

- for the record, i am on the "DON'T KISS!" train.

- guys.  GUYS!  that scene at the end with vadar!?!  omg!!  all i wanted to do is run home and watch episode four!!

Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: The Gem Cutter on December 18, 2016, 07:30:41 PM
Cupiscent, it's probably a side-bar topic, but I am very interested in Mon Mothma's character and role. I am looking for examples for a female rebellion-leader, one who is not just a gender-switched male character, but not a princess pouting at problems waiting for others to solve them, either. Perhaps this is the exemplar I've been looking for?
That aspect of the film made me really sad that all of the burgeoning-Rebellion stuff got cut from Revenge of the Sith. I mean, I was sad already, because that was basically Padme's arc of actually doing stuff in that movie, but it's also a sad lack because that stuff included Mon Mothma. And I am so interested in her, because she's the continuity of the Rebellion through the last days of the old Republic to the fall of the Empire. (Bail Organa's in there too, of course, but Mon survives because she's not on Alderaan.) She's such a politician, and I think her brief scenes in Rogue One gave some fascinating glimpses at a woman who's been walking fine lines and making hard decisions her entire adult life.

All that also makes Mon another candidate for reprimand on the topic of "a kid called Skywalker shows up in your Rebellion and you don't mention that other famous Skywalker you knew?" But hey, Plot Reasons, right? ;)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on December 18, 2016, 07:37:37 PM
To m3mnoch


- speaking of cgi:  i HATED grand moff tarkin every time he was on the screen.  the uncanny valley was too wide, and elicited hot, visceral anger from me.  (even his voice actor irritated me)  which was weird since i didn't read anything about him prior to seeing the movie, so the opinions of other internet nerds did nothing to saddle me with any predisposition.

but, yeah, they might as well have subbed in the model from star wars rebels.  leia also afflicted me in the same way, but luckily i only had to look at her for a brief moment at the end.

Yup yup, right there with you. The Tarkin CGI was hitting all my uncanny valley creepiness. It's odd though, because I've read about other people who had no idea he was CGI at all. So I'm wondering how much the fact that I read that they'd recreated Tarkin with CGI influenced me seeing him as CGI. Once you see it, you can't unsee it ... that sort of thing.

And Leia CGI gave me the heebie jeebies.

I think they overreached. I've heard many suggestions for Tarkin (show his reflection in a window, show him as a hologram, have him not turn around when he speaks, etc) and same for Leia (show her in silhouette as she takes the plans) but nope, they went full lit face closeup. We're not there yet, sadly.

- guys.  GUYS!  that scene at the end with vadar!?!  omg!!  all i wanted to do is run home and watch episode four!!

The best thing about that scene? It *totally* changes the opening scene with Leia and Darth Vader in episode 4. Her line about being on a diplomatic mission? That wasn't an attempt to fool Vader. That was SASS.

Think about it. Vader invades the Tantive IV. He literally SEES a rebel hand another rebel the Death Star plans, and then watches the Tantive IV escape. He SAW THEM TAKE THE PLANS.

Remember this exchange? (taken from IMDB)

Quote
Princess Leia Organa: Darth Vader. Only you could be so bold. The Imperial Senate will not sit still for this. When they hear you've attacked a diplomatic...

Darth Vader: Don't act so surprised, Your Highness. You weren't on any mercy mission this time. Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you.

Princess Leia Organa: I don't know what you're talking about. I am a member of the Imperial Senate on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan...

Darth Vader: You are part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor! Take her away!

So yeah, in the new canon, now that we've seen how Rogue One ends? They both know he saw the Tantive IV escape with the plans at the end of the battle over Scarif. Leia is literally just ****ing with him. :)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Elfy on December 18, 2016, 08:47:20 PM
I enjoyed it, especially the 3rd climactic act, however none of the characters, except maybe K2SO, connected with me. Not sure if this was due to acting, writing, directing, or a combination of all 3. Fun, but not classic for me.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: m3mnoch on December 19, 2016, 03:01:55 PM
a bag of interesting feels, heavily laden with spoilers, from the writers of kotaku:
http://kotaku.com/what-we-liked-and-loved-about-rogue-one-a-star-wars-st-1790258571
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on December 20, 2016, 05:59:18 AM
Kotaku and IO9 have actually been doing my favorite Rogue One coverage recently.

http://kotaku.com/every-rogue-one-shot-that-was-in-the-trailers-but-not-1790297993 (http://kotaku.com/every-rogue-one-shot-that-was-in-the-trailers-but-not-1790297993)

This is another article I liked (don't watch it you haven't seen the movie, as it's sort of ... inverse spoilers ...?) Basically, it's a cut someone put together of all the footage in the trailers/teasers etc that was NOT in the movie. When you take a close look at some of it, it suggests the movie (before the reshoots) was very, very different. Interesting speculation.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nighteyes on December 20, 2016, 07:10:06 PM
I saw it yesterday. And, like Nora, I enjoyed it but I've got a lot of mixed feelings about it.

See, the thing is, the movie has a genuinely really good third act/climactic battle, filled with tense, exhilarating action and a few heart-wrenching moments to go along with it... The only problem is that the first two acts are a muddled, over-plotted mess, where characterisation is more or less shoved out of the way to make room for more meandering plot threads. Seriously, the characterisation for most of the cast is a mess, filled with questionable character arcs and backstory/exposition in the place of actual development (Jyn in particular gets hit by this one). Which is a shame because there are a lot of moments in the (again still fantastic) third act which would've hit all the more harder had the film done a better job of making us care about the characters.

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of stuff to like (like the exploration of the greyer side of the Rebellion and Vader who owns every second he's on screen) and the third act is worth the price of admission by itself. But it's definitely a flawed movie and certainly no Force Awakens (although it did have the grand space battle that movie was missing). I'd probably give it a B-.

Agreed

And agreed with m3mnoch

peaking of cgi:  i HATED grand moff tarkin every time he was on the screen.  the uncanny valley was too wide, and elicited hot, visceral anger from me.  (even his voice actor irritated me)  which was weird since i didn't read anything about him prior to seeing the movie, so the opinions of other internet nerds did nothing to saddle me with any predisposition.

And what was with punning Darth Vader?!
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on December 20, 2016, 07:24:34 PM
Darth Vader owned every single second he was on the screen. He was awesome and I wish he'd get his own in-between-episodes movie, from the point of view of the empire, it'd be neat.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on December 20, 2016, 08:43:10 PM
Darth Vader owned every single second he was on the screen. He was awesome and I wish he'd get his own in-between-episodes movie, from the point of view of the empire, it'd be neat.

It's been done, actually ... but in comics! The "Vader Down" comic series just concluded (telling a complete story) where Vader goes around just beating the snot out of everyone and being a general badass. It's told completely from his POV and shows what was going on with him and the Empire in the Rogue One/ Ep 4 time range.

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Vader-Down-1-ebook/dp/B0176XVO94/ (http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Vader-Down-1-ebook/dp/B0176XVO94/)

Also, if you ever get to watch the second season of Star Wars: Rebels, Vader shows up there too, and proceeds to kick all sorts of ass.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: The Gem Cutter on December 20, 2016, 09:14:33 PM
It's older than most of you, but the book Splinter of the Mind's Eye takes place between Ep. IV and V and I thought it was terrific. It's the (original?) first place where I saw kaiburr (sp?) crystals mentioned. Leia and Luke end up stranded on a swampy planet and Vader arrives. Very good fight at the end. It's a little darker than most SW movies, but my only expedition into the EU, beyond the Bane novels.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on December 20, 2016, 09:32:11 PM
Darth Vader owned every single second he was on the screen. He was awesome and I wish he'd get his own in-between-episodes movie, from the point of view of the empire, it'd be neat.

It's been done, actually ... but in comics! The "Vader Down" comic series just concluded (telling a complete story) where Vader goes around just beating the snot out of everyone and being a general badass. It's told completely from his POV and shows what was going on with him and the Empire in the Rogue One/ Ep 4 time range.

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Vader-Down-1-ebook/dp/B0176XVO94/ (http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Vader-Down-1-ebook/dp/B0176XVO94/)

Also, if you ever get to watch the second season of Star Wars: Rebels, Vader shows up there too, and proceeds to kick all sorts of ass.

There is also the series "Darth Vader". I've read a few of those online.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MSD4gUpypFE/Vvzqgq93FQI/AAAAAAABrLE/WpZcIXgnFqIdy2hyjWN71oNgHCmMvXifQ/s1600/08_00.jpg)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on December 22, 2016, 11:30:31 PM
Saw Rogue One again today with the wife. Happy to say it holds up well! Also, I was watching closely this time to evaluate the the first two acts for problems - but honestly, I didn't see any. While it jumped around a bit to introduce the characters (since they started scattered around the galaxy) every scene had a purpose, whether to introduce a character, plot point, or move the story forward (or often all at once).

I won't completely discount the complaints about not enough characterization (they definitely went the route of giving you hints and letting you fill in the blanks, rather than blatantly putting everything in your face) but I still understood what each character wanted, what they were doing, and how it fit into the overall story.

So my opinion remains positive. And that third act - man. Just as great as the first time!

Oh, and to the CGI question!

My wife had NO IDEA Tarkin was CGI. I told her at the end, and she said she didn't notice anything unusual or off about him at all. Similarly, she thought Leia looked fine, though she *did* say she knew they had done something, as she knew the actress was much older.

But yeah. I'm starting to think the people who pick up on the CGI are those who know, going in, that he's CGI (and are looking for it) or people who work in entertainment industries (like game dev). My wife is not a gamer, and rarely watches anything CGI. So if the idea of a CGI character isn't something you encounter on a regular basis, and the fact that you COULD make an entire character in a live action movie CGI is not something you think about being an option, I'm betting the illusion works pretty well.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on December 23, 2016, 12:37:10 AM
I didn't know about Tarkin going in, but also guessed for the second one.

However Tarkin was a bit off, but at the back of my mind I thought maybe the man was over-maked-up!  ;D
Didn't guess about CGI at all, because I assumed he was a different actor looking very similar (I haven't seen the originals in over a year and a half, and Tarkin is hardly engraved in my memory)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on December 23, 2016, 05:37:27 AM
An interesting article here discussing the lack of any main romantic plot in Rogue One. Not entirely spoiler free, but it avoids spoiling anything major.

http://www.teenvogue.com/story/rogue-one-jyn-erso-romantic-storyline (http://www.teenvogue.com/story/rogue-one-jyn-erso-romantic-storyline)

Definitely something to think about next time you write a book with a female lead.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Yora on December 24, 2016, 01:52:43 PM
I had not planned to see it but the family is all together for christmas and want to watch it on monday. I really know absolutely nothing about the movie except the name, a vague recalling of stolen plans for a battle station, and a single picture of a woman in a hallway.
This might be the blindest I ever went to a movie.

And I just realized that a movie about stealing death star plans really should have Darth Vader in his prime in it!
Could be fun to see Classic Star Wars in a big movie again. That clone wars stuff and New Wars stuff didn't do anything for me.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on December 24, 2016, 03:41:21 PM
Don't get yourself too pumped up for classic waterver @Yora, Darth Vader is in it, and is pure badass, but maybe 2min in total.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: JMack on December 24, 2016, 04:20:13 PM
Saw it last night. While I'm not all way over to Tebakutis's rating, I did really enjoy it.

And yes, there are some true badass moments. Vader's brief appearance makes you remember he was so awesomely nasty in the first place, and the Death Star is shown to be freaking terrifying.

The movie breaks into prologue (origin), act 1 (temple city), act 2 (engineering station), act 3 (security planet). I had to get well into act 2 before the movie kept me entirely in the story. Part of this was that my son had seen it, and polluted my brain with his take on the movie. So I spent the first section of the movie comparing his ideas to what I was seeing. Yrg.

In some ways, I feel that this movie was closer in spirit to "Revenge of the Sith" than to "A New Hope". Or, maybe it was just out on its own in terms of approach. I sure can't see kid's dolls made from any of these characters.

And now, on to Episode 8! (Star Wars: Order of the Dark Side?)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Yora on December 26, 2016, 10:33:24 PM
I just watched it tonight, and this New Star Wars really just isn't for me.

George Lucas might have written terrible scripts and can't direct actors to save his life, but he seems to have been the guy who nailed down the Star Wars feel of the first six movies. These two new ones just don't have it. It's all too hectic now and doesn't have the light footed swashbuckling. They look and feel like mid-2010s action movies and don't have the magic. (And again, 3D made the movie look worse, like it always does.)

I did like the last part which reminded me a lot of the old Rogue Squadron books, which I was already planning to read again. It just got too long and I wished they'd hurry up.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on December 26, 2016, 11:27:30 PM
I'm watching it again tomorrow with my local group of nerds. I'll keep an eye out for details now, but I can already tell it's not on par with episode 7 for me, as I was way more excited to see that one twice. I went back asap. Here I'm only watching it because I'm going with friends.
It's not bad, I just feel like Rey-Kylo-Fynn is a trio of characters I care for in much deeper ways, and I'm curious about them and who they'll become.
Not only is the rogue one cast short lived, I really didn't connect with any of them, not even Jane.
The more time passes the more I feel that.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: night_wrtr on December 27, 2016, 05:35:56 PM
I give it 4/5. I am glad that I read Catalyst first, because it made the movie far richer IMO. Knowing how some of the characters had interacted and their own motivations was a big bonus.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Justan Henner on December 28, 2016, 02:51:18 PM
OMG I hate you guys. I was sitting here going, "Wow, they cast Tarkin really well." F OFF. I'm going to work.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Yora on December 28, 2016, 05:31:14 PM
And somehow CGI Tarkin is really tall, while Meat Tarkin was very short.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on December 28, 2016, 06:32:22 PM
Late Meat Tarkin, please.

Upon re-watching the movie, I think the skin was fine, it's more the mouth that still has some stiffness.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Hedin on January 01, 2017, 03:03:49 AM
Finally saw the movie today, I really liked but it fell a little short to get up to a love level. The main issue for me was the pacing in Acts 1 & 2. When stuffed happened in those sections I enjoyed it but it seemed to take awhile to get to the important parts.  Characterization didn't bother me, this was a heist movie so just give me their motivation and show me they gave skills (which the movie did)  and for me the backstory doesn't really matter.   

Other thoughts:


- I knew about CGI Tarkin going in and...it didn't bother me. I could tell it was CGI but it never took me out of the movie when he showed up.
- CGI Leia, on the other hand, hit me a little bit considering the news of this past week.
- Why the hell did Jyn's mom ditch her to go get herself killed?  I know the plot needed Jyn to be without both parents but that setup just seemed needless and a little stupid.
- So about the whole Alliance meeting when they decided not to do anything. I get not making a large scale attack but really a covert operation wasn't even considered? 
- Loved badass Vader. One of the problems with the prequel trilogy is that I associate Vader to the whiney Anakin and he lost some luster.  This movie & Rebels has helped to bring back the fear factor.


- it was weird not hearing the classic theme at the start of the movie.
- Supposedly the initial cut had too brutal of an ending.  I'm a little curious as to how they would have upped the antenna even more.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 03, 2017, 06:52:16 PM
Yahoo posted a really interesting article from the editors talking about how they cut the film together, including some illumination on what the reshoots actually added.

https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/rogue-ones-editors-reveal-scenes-added-in-the-star-wars-standalone-reshoots-exclusive-110124381.html (https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/rogue-ones-editors-reveal-scenes-added-in-the-star-wars-standalone-reshoots-exclusive-110124381.html)

A lot of this article resonates with me, particularly how they talked about reorganizing action and dialogue, and how little changes affect other parts of the story. I also felt them when they said they were worried how people would receive the movie, since they didn't preview it. As someone who constantly revises, rejiggers, and rearranges scenes and other elements of my novels, I empathized with their process.

I found this a fascinating read, so for any writers (or anyone curious about how the movie changed) I thought I'd share.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: The Gem Cutter on January 03, 2017, 11:08:05 PM
Jenny Nicholson does an interestingly effective job of popping my Rogue One balloon. And I'm not sure how I feel about it. It's still fun on the bubble-gum levels and my personal take on spy vs. spy stuff, but she makes a pretty good case.

Obvious insanely detailed deconstructing spoiler alert:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3gf6qyAHOw[/youtube]
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on January 03, 2017, 11:41:14 PM
Good to see some no-nonsense people agreeing on the shallowness of the characters and the pointlessness of their death.
She has a fair point about Vader. I know a person who went to see this as their first Star Wars and it also bothered me that it was not a true stand-alone. Bad breathing half robot step dad was also shadily tied to the prequels.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Hedin on January 04, 2017, 01:09:11 PM
...and it also bothered me that it was not a true stand-alone. Bad breathing half robot step dad was also shadily tied to the prequels.

I don't quite get this.  The trailers made it pretty clear that this movie was about getting the plans for the Death Star.  The first scene of A New Hope is Leia trying to run from Vader who is chasing her because she has the Death Star plans.  While it can be considered a standalone because it goes off the episodic nature of the rest of the movies it was very clearly an interconnected movie. 
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: JMack on January 04, 2017, 02:36:48 PM
...and it also bothered me that it was not a true stand-alone. Bad breathing half robot step dad was also shadily tied to the prequels.

I don't quite get this.  The trailers made it pretty clear that this movie was about getting the plans for the Death Star.  The first scene of A New Hope is Leia trying to run from Vader who is chasing her because she has the Death Star plans.  While it can be considered a standalone because it goes off the episodic nature of the rest of the movies it was very clearly an interconnected movie.

I think the term stand-alone as applied here just means that these characters and this specific pre-ep4 storyline do not continue.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: m3mnoch on January 04, 2017, 03:34:04 PM
yup.  same universe.  pockets of stories.  fitting in the gaps left by the mainline series.  think of them like an anthology of short stories.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Anthology_Series

so, we've already got rogue one.  we'll have a young han solo story.  and finally, "reportedly" we'll have a boba fett story.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on January 04, 2017, 04:11:31 PM
...and it also bothered me that it was not a true stand-alone. Bad breathing half robot step dad was also shadily tied to the prequels.

I don't quite get this.  The trailers made it pretty clear that this movie was about getting the plans for the Death Star.  The first scene of A New Hope is Leia trying to run from Vader who is chasing her because she has the Death Star plans.  While it can be considered a standalone because it goes off the episodic nature of the rest of the movies it was very clearly an interconnected movie.

Have you seen her video? Her point about Vader is very true and very clear. A movie should not pretend to be a stand alone if it isn't. And it truly isn't : you have zero instalment of Vader's character for exemple. If you don't already know who he is, you have no clue what his position is, why he gets to boss kredik around, and worse, why he ends the movie on some epic battle scene. We loved it, but to a new comer like my friend it was probably exceedingly confusing, to end on such a display from some unknown bad guy.

Just like I should never have to read a book to understand any movie - ever, I see it as complete failure - needing to watch another film is more tolerable but then don't make it a stand alone. It isn't one.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 04, 2017, 05:58:28 PM
Heh. I think Jenny is hilarious, but we're just going to have to disagree about disliking Rogue One. That said, that's how subjectivity works! The very things that charmed me about the movie might annoy other people, so I'm not going to delve into a deep argument about whether something worked or didn't.

I can just say the movie worked for me, and put me in my own little happy place. It was a brand new story (rather than a beat for beat recycle of Ep 4), I loved the characters, and it added some new twists to the revised canon. And that third act! Personally, I have nothing to complain about, but don't begrudge other folks their nitpicking. That's what we all do.

Personally, I'm also really looking forward to seeing what Rebels does with their parallel timeline as well, and *love* that Rogue One dropped references to the Rebels TV show into one of the main movies. Chopper (Kanan's psycho little droid) actual rolls through a shot in Rogue One, and the Ghost (the main ship from Rebels) was even at the battle of Scarif!

This sort of show to movie synergy is the sort of thing I love which Marvel has yet to do ... Agents of Shield certainly references the movies, but the movies don't reference Agents of Shield. This gets strange and also disappoints me. So overall, the interconnected SW universe is ahead on the "interconnected" bit.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on January 04, 2017, 06:06:16 PM
I personnally don't see what's so cool about the third act. I found the first two more interesting. In all aspects, it was samey-samey to me.

I didn't like it as much as episode 7. As I said, I never cared about any of the characters, and never even understood half of their names even while watching it. I still need google each time I want to speak about anyone besides cassian-Jyn-K2.
For me to watch heroes die on screen and not care, not even get tense, means the characterisation was sketchy.
There is far fewer lives in danger and far fewer deaths in Interstellar, and yet that movie had a father-daughter relationship that had me crying like a baby, and entire scenes spent at the edge of my seat.
I never felt 1/8th of what interstellar made me feel. To me Rogue One ends up being passable. I'd rewatch it for a marathon but not on its own.

Of course I understand others might love it. I know a few people who dearly love much shittier movies anyway.
I just wonder what non Star Wars fans rate this movie like, being puzzled by Vader and the vague mentions of the emperor.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 04, 2017, 07:47:42 PM
I personnally don't see what's so cool about the third act. I found the first two more interesting. In all aspects, it was samey-samey to me.

Yup, different strokes! Seeing how people react differently to the exact same media and books (some people are like "This is the best thing ever!" and others are like "This is bad") is why I never stress too much when people don't like my own work.

You will never please everyone. As long as *someone* likes it, I'm good. :p
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: cupiscent on January 05, 2017, 07:28:25 AM
Max Gladstone has written a very thoughtful, wide-ranging and interesting blog post (http://www.maxgladstone.com/2017/01/rogue-one-least-effort-fixes/) (...does he write any other kind?) about Rogue One, the problems he sees, how they could be fixed with least effort, and - as a bonus for the other writers among us - how this sort of problem-identification and -solving can be applied to our own writing.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: The Gem Cutter on January 05, 2017, 09:09:08 AM
Max Gladstone has written a very thoughtful, wide-ranging and interesting blog post (http://www.maxgladstone.com/2017/01/rogue-one-least-effort-fixes/) (...does he write any other kind?) about Rogue One, the problems he sees, how they could be fixed with least effort, and - as a bonus for the other writers among us - how this sort of problem-identification and -solving can be applied to our own writing.

Great read Cupiscent, and applicable to other things (as I wade into a 95K word revision  ::)).

For my part, the movie is fun and enjoyable, and though I wish there was more X, less Y, and [random descriptor] Z, I almost always come away from films and books feeling that way.

It is ironic that the Hobbit MIGHT have been two better movies, SHOULD have been only one awesome one, but actually WAS three (crappy imho) films; and yet here is a single film that really could have been made into two really good stories:

1) Jyn's recruitment from prison and entry into the Rebellion as they determine a game changing weapon is in the works and work hard to find out more while going about Rebellion business of blowing up Imperial supply depots and communications nodes - in essence fighting a winning campaign whose tide is going to be turned by whatever the Emperor's up to. It would end with the revelation of what it is and that her father's key in its development, and Darth Vader's been posted to oversee the security of the weapon's construction.

2) The planning, preparation, and execution of a (smart and resourced) daring raid, rather than an improvised mess (tactically speaking). It would certainly involve distracting/diverting Vader away. Enter our Jedah badass, the closest thing to a Jedi, and easily capable of pretending to be one to lure the Dark Lord from protecting the station's plans. Now there's a sacrifice - no way this monk's going to beat Vader, but if he can hold his attention just... long... enough...

I think one of the big issues I have is the tossed-together nature of the raid at the end. I think many of us expected an updated and energized Force 10 from Navarone (Harrison Ford movie!),  Dirty Dozen, or Where Eagles Dare kind of film. These approaches are better, but impossible in this film, choosing as they did to meander around being all "Way Darker than other SW movies".  So it's a lost opportunity.

The good news - door's wide open for someone else to tell a story like that. Lord knows, I'm waiting for it!
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 05, 2017, 10:06:10 PM
ABC recently aired an interesting segment discussing the process involved in using CGI used to recreate certain actors for the film. Since we've been discussing the CGI used in the movie and whether they convincingly recreated certain people, I found the clip interesting.

This clip in spoiler tags WILL spoil elements of Rogue One for you if you haven't seen it (even the title is a spoiler!) so see the movie first or be aware of that.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMB2sLwz0Do[/youtube]
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: JMack on January 05, 2017, 10:13:52 PM
Meanwhile, I heard the first glimmer of how to deal with the passing of Carrie Fischer in terms of the third movie. CGI looking?
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: S. K. Inkslinger on January 06, 2017, 04:33:52 AM
Meanwhile, I heard the first glimmer of how to deal with the passing of Carrie Fischer in terms of the third movie. CGI looking?

I think I heard from somewhere that episode 9 would need to be rewritten, considering General Leia is going to play a major part in it. A little bit off topic, but there is a joke on the internet that goes,

"Breaking News! Leaked trailer of the sequel to Rogue One, to be directed by George Lucas!"

Let's see who get this.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 06, 2017, 02:27:55 PM
Meanwhile, I heard the first glimmer of how to deal with the passing of Carrie Fischer in terms of the third movie. CGI looking?

I think I heard from somewhere that episode 9 would need to be rewritten, considering General Leia is going to play a major part in it. A little bit off topic, but there is a joke on the internet that goes,

"Breaking News! Leaked trailer of the sequel to Rogue One, to be directed by George Lucas!"

Let's see who get this.

I saw the trailer. I have to say, I'm ambivalent. First, it looks like the tone of the sequel isn't anywhere near Rogue One. I liked Jyn, but it seems like the lead of the sequel is some whiny blond kid. Lucas will probably have him complain about sand or something.

Also, the droid characters (some tall golden one and a little rolling trashcan) don't seem nearly as cool as K2-SO. I'm hoping the gold one at least knows martial arts or something, otherwise he's useless. Maybe the trashcan has little thermal detonators it can throw?

Also, I'm hoping maybe the trailer is misleading (like they did with The Force Awakens) and the lead is actually the chick with cinnamon buns for hair. Weird style, but she had a few good lines in the trailer, like "Into the garbage chute, flyboy!"  I'd totally watch a movie where she was the lead.

Anyway, I'm reserved judgment on the Rogue One sequel until we get more details.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on January 06, 2017, 02:37:51 PM
Read this on my fb timeline this morning, coming from a guy from tor.com. I very often dislike opinion pieces on that website, as somehow they are often from people who are more here to self advertise, or seem a bit narrow in their recommendation, or whose opinion is too far from mine to seem very sensical (I am but human).

OK, so instead of bashing Rogue One, he covers how he would make the film better, more dramatic, with minimal script edition. And I fully, sooooo fully agree with him, that I came to love the movie he depicted in my head, and it made me long for it.

http://www.tor.com/2017/01/05/least-effort-fixes-for-rogue-one/

The main edit he suggests being :

Quote
Show Us Jyn; Make Galen a Reveal


Adult Jyn never has a chance to shine. The first five minutes of Rogue One do beautiful, efficient work. We know exactly what everyone wants—to survive, to protect one another—and those desires almost kill them all. Jyn escapes with a lesson: love, and trust, and die. Then we cut forward fifteen years. Jyn’s in prison. We don’t know what she’s been doing all this time. She’s not enjoying any part of her shitty life. She’s not happy to be in prison—but she doesn’t do anything to escape. (Compare Steve McQueen’s similarly misanthropic character in the opening of The Great Escape, who makes his first attempt in the first five minutes.) When the Rebellion springs Jyn, we get a whole pile of information and back story: “Empire building a superweapon! Need to talk with your old buddy Saw! Put you back in prison! Also your father is alive and working on the Death Star!” All of which seems to be much more about who Jyn is (defined, for the most part, by the men in her life), rather than what she can do. For that matter, we don’t know what she can do. We’ve only seen her hit some rebels with a shovel, and sit moodily. Everyone in Jyn’s life is more important than her. And to make matters worse, we don’t get much of a sense of Jyn’s particularity until the firefight on Jedah—even then, she saves a kid, which is great, and beats up some stormtroopers, but that doesn’t characterize her as anything other than a generic “good guy.” The line about the blaster in Cassian’s ship is far more effective.

[One thing I think about when I start working on a story, on a character: what do they enjoy, what captivates them, about the life they’re living? Readers want to have fun; they like people who are having fun! The catch is, fun can mean a lot of things. Some people enjoy their own misery—the narrator of Notes from the Underground belongs in this category, as does Philip Marlowe. Some characters who seem to hate life (Adam in Only Lovers Left Alive) actually have a profound love of louche nihilistic disaffection. Self-hatred is a hard sell in a protagonist, unless you show that they like self hatred. If they don’t like at least some part of their existence, why haven’t they changed already? When we meet Baru, in The Traitor Baru Cormorant, she loves her family, and watching birds; even after she loses everything and ends up living in a crapsack colonialst world under constant threat of torture-murder, she really likes using people. Katniss loves her sister, enjoys hunting, and I get the impression at the beginning of The Hunger Games that she’d be perfectly happy to spend the rest of her life in District 12.]

So we need to make the opening about Jyn, not about Galen or Saw; to do this, we need to convey to the viewer what Jyn likes, what drives her emotionally. “Freedom” seems a natural choice. Jyn’s core song is “Me and Bobby McGee.” (Actually, it might be “One Jump Ahead” from Aladdin…) To keep the focus on Jyn Erso, we remove Galen: at the beginning of the film, Jyn thinks her Dad is dead. Jyn is sprung from jail, as seen, and taken to the comm room in Yavin 4.

    Mon Mothma: “Welcome back to the rebellion.”

    Jyn: “I’m not in the rebellion any more. I left.” (possibly “I rebelled” if you really want to save that line.)

    MM: “And we rescued you.”

    J: “Thanks for that. Why?”

    MM: “Are you really asking why you were rescued?”

    J: “I’ve been in prison a year and a half. There were other rebels in there. You came for me because you need something. What?”

    MM’s uncomfortable, but the point can’t be denied: “When did you last hear from Saw Gerrera?”

    J: (beat)

    J: “That’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time.” [Callback spotters in the audience go wild]

    General Rando: “We think the Empire is building something. An enormous weapon. A planet killer. Saw Gerrera captured a defector from the project.”

    J: “So, ask Saw. You’re friends.”

    GR: “Not any more.”

    MM: “Saw Gerrera split with the Rebellion. He’s an extremist. But he raised you. He will talk to you.”

    J: “When I last saw him, he gave me a blaster and told me to fend for myself.”

    GR: “We sent people to Saw; they came back in body bags. You fought together for ten years. He’ll meet with you, if he meets with anyone.”

    J: “Why should I help you?”

    MM: “Because we rescued you.”

    J: “This is not my fight.”

    GR: “You can help us, or we’ll send you right back to that cell.”

    J: “If I do this, you’ll give me a ship, and let me go. And you won’t follow me.”

    GR: (glowers, does that jaw muscle thing.)

    MM: Very well.

Or, you know, something like that. Jyn has a clear core objective, with minimal pipe-laying: go to Jedah, get the plans, GTFO of the Rebellion forever. (I love that line about how flags don’t matter if you don’t look up.) Jyn knows Jedah is enormously dangerous; she knows Saw might kill her. But if this gets the Rebellion off her back, so be it. Jyn is a selfish loner; we know she has a heart of gold, but it’s buried deep down.

(I’d personally change the prison break a bit, so the rebels’ attack gives Jyn an opening to make a break for it—almost like what happens in the film, but with a slight change of emphasis so Jyn does most of the escaping herself before the rebels find her, thus giving her a chance to shine, and establishing her love of freedom and her desire to stay the hell out of the rebellion—and then change the Jedah sequences so she leads Cassian around, since after all this is Saw Gerrera territory and she’s the resident Saw expert—but we’re talking about least-effort fixes here, and you could almost fix the Mon Mothma conversation with Aftereffects and a rainy afternoon.)

This saves the revelation that Galen Erso is alive, and working for the Empire, for the next act, when we really need it. Saw’s religious awe at the coincidence of Jyn’s arrival makes a lot more sense now—how can the Ersos have come back to haunt me after all these years?—and plays in to the central theme of destiny-as-bear-trap. When Saw asks what Jyn wants, we should know the answer is, “freedom,” and “to be left alone.”

But the hologram changes everything.

Jyn learns her father is alive, and worked on the Death Star, and placed a flaw in the plans. He’ll help the rebels if they can extract him. Then Jedah blows up. Everyone leaves. We know things now that we did not know before, and the act break leaves us in profound uncertainty. What comes next?

 
Getting to Edou Should be a Conflict that Jyn Wins

The scene leading up to Our Heroes’ trip to Edou (sucky rain planet) is one of the most tangled and weird in the film. There has to be a transition scene bridging the two planets, but everyone wants to go to the same place. They have different reasons for getting there—Jyn wants to rescue Dad, but Cassian wants to kill him. But Cassian can’t say that. Yet a scene must have conflict! So the argument between Jyn and Cassian about Edou comes off as a “I say your three cent titanium tax doesn’t go too far enough” moment on the iMax screen. What if, instead, Cassian wants to go back to Yavin to report; Jyn argues, no, we have to rescue my father. Jyn used to want to disappear; now, she wants her family. Cassian thought Galen was dead—now he’s a living collaborator! Jyn claims her father was secretly sabotaging the Death Star—but, Cassian points out, the Death Star works just fine! Finally, as in the film, Cassian sets course for Edou. But when Cassian fills in Rebel High Command, General Rando orders him to execute Galen, not rescue him.  The Death Star is too dangerous. Erso must be destroyed. DUN DUN DUUUUUN!

Now, instead of frontloading Galen’s survival and Cassian’s betrayal, both enter the story as new information at an already tense moment, driving our heroes to dramatic action (and conflict). Yes, we lose a little by not having Cassian’s orders to kill Galen hanging over his entire relationship with Jyn, but then, Cassian’s introduction features him shooting a buddy in the back; we know he’ll do the same to Jyn if the situation requires. Having him receive the kill order here would feel like the dramatic flowering of a seeded tendency to Just Follow Orders and Do the Needful Thing. These two small fixes get us a lot, and all they ask in return is a reshot scene in a U-Wing cargo hold.

From there, everything proceeds exactly as shot. With one addition: Galen, dying, tells Jyn she can find the Death Star plans on Scarif. Jyn goes back, tries to rally the rebellion, fails, and the movie proceeds more or less to credits.

It’s not a perfect fix, but playing the film through in my head, I think these two changes make Jyn a clearer, more active character, and transform muddled, pipe-heavy scenes into lean, active ones. All the acts, at least, have purpose, and each phase of action feels markedly different from the one before.

There’s a risk, of course—Galen being alive again, then dead, might incur whiplash. But the current sequence is a bit whiplash-inducing too!

Honestly recommend reading the whole piece, I think he's quite smart about it.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 06, 2017, 03:11:44 PM
Honestly recommend reading the whole piece, I think he's quite smart about it.

Ha, it's so interesting that we have such different opinions on this movie. For instance, when I read his rewrite for the scene with Jyn and Mon Motha, I cringed. It felt so "As you know, Bob" that I probably would have tuned out. I'm *really* glad this guy wasn't writing the movie.

It was obvious that the writer was trying to deliver the character exposition that (I felt) was clear and was efficiently sprinkled through the movie, but doing it all at once, hitting me over the head with "Oh, did I mention I'm a loner who's been betrayed several times?". It's a dialogue scene where both characters are telling each other what they already know for the benefit of the audience. As we got further into the movie, I *knew* why Jyn wanted nothing to do with the rebellion, and I figured it out on my own, which made me enjoy how the story was told more.

As an example, I much more liked the place where we the movie revealed that Saw abandoned Jyn ... when they meet again for the first time in many years. Jyn's *finally* seeing the man who left her for the first time and finally has the chance to confront him ... THAT is when she'd bring up the "you left me behind" line, because that's when it has the most weight. After a decade of being hurt by it, she brings up the way Saw betrayed her to the man who betrayed her and you can see her emotional facade start to crack.

If she randomly brought it up in a conversation with Mon Motha at the start of the movie? It totally falls flat, and is just a "meh" detail. Boooooring.

But again, this just goes to show how subjective entertainment can be. For me, I think the reason I didn't have the same problems with characterization in Rogue One that others did was because the movie really does "Show, not tell" to the point where it really does trust the viewer to understand the characters based on their actions and scenes, without handholding. The scene in the Tor article is extremely "telling" - it's literally a conversation where Jyn lays out her past and conflict in a bullet point like dialogue exchange with a woman she doesn't know (Mon Motha). Not nearly as good as what was in the movie (IMO).

For me, Rogue One was classic "iceberg" storytelling. I actually UNDERSTOOD what the characters were about and where they were coming from, even though the movie only revealed the "tip" of the iceberg. I felt I understood the characters very well, and additional nuggets of info (like Jyn's exchange with Saw in the movie as an adult) helped refine my understanding. Rogue One builds its characters by letting you, the viewer, figure out their backstories and motivations from the clues you get during the movie, gradually revealing new facets and facts that either let you fill out your existing understanding or reevaluate it.

That's much better than having characters bleed their hearts out in dialogue. But again, this is one guy's opinion. People seem to be rather split on how Rogue One told its story, but it worked for me!
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: The Gem Cutter on January 06, 2017, 03:51:10 PM
It felt so "As you know, Bob" that I probably would have tuned out.
Snickered at that one  ;D
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on January 06, 2017, 05:26:05 PM
I disagree in so far that he is not telling you how to word-for-word rewrite the script, but showing how the character arcs should be altered.
Jyn hardly has an arc. I felt entirely different from you, as I felt there was a huge amount of telling. Maybe it's because I sometimes don't understand everything on first hearing, but movies with too much accented, mumbled exposition make me strain, and Rogue One made me strain to understand what was going on in the first meeting with Moffat, but also the whole Saw arc.
I repeat : I did not understand anyone's name beside Gallen's, Jyn's, K2SO's and Kredik's. All the others were "kickass asian dude", etc. Even while watching the movie, they seem to often have potato mouthed ways of using names, or key sentences... For exemple, that Saw might be a bit religious completely flew over my head. That Jun might have lived on Jedah completely escaped me. I was straining to understand all the Moffat meeting, and it felt, and is, in my eyes, an enormous info-dump moment.

I found Jyn's scene with Saw, and Saw's character, entirely pointless. He's here purely as a trick device. In a less convoluted plan, Jyn's mom would have done the right thing and escaped with her daughter, raising her instead of going to die for nothing.
Jyn accuses Saw of leaving her behind so many years ago, and she looks SO unconvincing. There are no emotions at all in that scene. Only Mikkelsen managed to deliver some, through hologram...
Seriously, making a jaded Jyn discover her father is alive in that scene would have packed so much more of a punch.
Imagine then Cassian receiving his orders to kill the very person who just sent a flicker of hope, motivation, of optimistic life in his new friend's eyes? The tension that would skyrocket, as Jyn gains trust in the rebellion again, just as Cassian looses a bit of his, facing the orders that he does, in the face of Jyn's mood.
As the movie is, the scene of him receiving his orders is weak, a side thing, he happily agrees to. He doesn't care a damn for Jyn or her feelings.
Besides, going to "rescue" Gaden makes little sense since they already know where the plans are. Think about it, what is gained from those scenes? Jyn loses her father to friendly fire, Cassian gets to not pull the trigger but his own angry ambivalence made me at a loss as to whether he was having second thoughts or not, or cared at all.

I'm telling you, this movie has very uncompelling character arcs, and characters in themselves.
All these weeks have passed, and I still have no idea why Jyn was in jail, and why was she jaded with the rebellion.

In the initial trailer, I was thrilled by the idea that maybe she was plucked off the street by the rebellion, because she was such an underdog on her own. The fact that she has been associated with it, and is just conveniently not really into it at the start of the film sort of cheapened things. She is indeed only chosen so she can emotionally reach at the men in her life. She does very little of her own volition.

People keep complaining to me that Rey is a Mary Sue, but Rey felt a lot more like an independent, growing spirit with a will she slowly defines. She often gets drawn out by the plot and its people, but it's often going the grain of what she wants to do, she feel she must do, and says so herself. 'I wanna go back to Jakkuuuuu!'
She was a bit of a bubbly personality, despite a tough life. She felt more real in her motivations and hope than Jyn ever could be.

I was also a bit saddened by the fact that once again a character of the universe was plagued by flagrant daddy issues. I mean, please, use Mikkelsen all you want to be anyone's daddy, but at least Rey's inheritance didn't feel like anything she felt like questing on, and she focused on the plot as it unfolded. Likewise orphan trooper Finn mentioned the parents he'll never know, it's not like it's something eating at him or anything.
It's Kylo who has daddy issues. But they were pretty understandable (I also wouldn't Solo for a dad), and didn't drive the plot, only his own arc.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 06, 2017, 06:14:48 PM
I'm telling you, this movie has very uncompelling character arcs, and characters in themselves.
All these weeks have passed, and I still have no idea why Jyn was in jail, and why was she jaded with the rebellion.

So, I just want to be clear ... I'm not disagreeing with you! All I'm saying is that we experienced the movie differently, which is why entertainment is subjective (and why everyone has different advice on how to write). I found the character arcs easy to follow, interesting, and compelling, and you didn't, for reasons you've explained well. Neither of us is "right". We just have different subjective opinions.

For my part, the very first time I saw Rogue One I understood the character motivations, I felt like I could infer their backstory from the clues I was given, and I *did* feel like each character had an arc ... but that was me. The second time I watched it, I confirmed that the story worked really well for me and the arcs I saw the first time existed. But! You had a totally different (but equally valid) experience.

So I'm not trying to convince you the characters in Rogue One had a good arc or were well-developed. It's clear it fell flat for you. I'm simply offering a counterpoint that they worked for me when I saw the movie, and whatever method of storytelling they used, it got the story across without issue for me personally.

Sometimes a book/movie works for everyone. Sometimes it works for no one. In Rogue One's case, I think the storytelling method they chose worked for some people (like me!) and not as well for others. It's probably the same reason I couldn't get past the fact that The Force Awakens retold the story of Star Wars, beat for beat (and that aside, I *loved* the new characters) while other people didn't have any issues with that at all. Just different strokes for different folks. :)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Hedin on January 06, 2017, 06:28:36 PM
What does it make me when I didn't have any major issues with either movie (there are things I can nit pick from both but nothing major) and either really liked them (Rogue One) or loved them (TFA)?  Maybe Lucasfilms/Disney needs to hire me to be one of their stooges.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 06, 2017, 06:35:01 PM
What does it make me when I didn't have any major issues with either movie (there are things I can nit pick from both but nothing major) and either really liked them (Rogue One) or loved them (TFA)?  Maybe Lucasfilms/Disney needs to hire me to be one of their stooges.

Haha! I don't think it makes you anything, honestly. I just think different people respond differently to different methods of storytelling and/or different stories, in general. So if the fact that you liked both makes you anything, it makes you another person with a subjective opinion about Star Wars movies! :)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on January 06, 2017, 06:40:51 PM
I'm telling you, this movie has very uncompelling character arcs, and characters in themselves.
All these weeks have passed, and I still have no idea why Jyn was in jail, and why was she jaded with the rebellion.

So, I just want to be clear ... I'm not disagreeing with you!

Sorry, that's my fault, that turn of sentence sounds way more aggrieved than I truly am or feels, and whatever I feel is against the movie, of course, never you. We have different opinions, there is no changing that, but it's interesting to delve into things through the confrontation of them.
I wasn't even trying to force you into my point of view. Sorry if it sounds like I got carried away! I very much wanted to love Rogue one, and found a lot that was great, but the averageness of it all left me wanting. That's the reason i like debating its flaws.
*shrugs*

Now though... Would you care to explain what arcs we have for each main character?  :D
Quite a few have none to speak of, in my eyes. It's a good "slice of life" movie in that respect, except that little deep change takes place in that time.

Would you also please tell me what you think Jyn's job is? Before she was in prison, what do you think her day to day life was like?

I'm understanding you liked those arcs, I'm curious as to what was in them, in your eyes, since I find so thin that I never teared up at anyone's death. I'm puzzled the gap in experience would be so wide.


@Hedin : I feel like the SW universe will never catch up to the more thoughtful movies made by people like Wes Anderson, Jeff Nichols or C. Nolan (in my eyes). Which I find extremely puzzling as well. I mean, if you gave Cooper 3 or 8 movies to develop his character, you'd wear the poor man thin with a life of adventure and heart rending emotions, you'd know him like your brother.
In that respect i was very pleased with Kylo Ren, whom I feel has the best range of emotions and inner life and monologue. The temper they gave him also builds him starkly. To be honest the more time flows, the more Kylo becomes my number 1 reason to want for more SW. If they screw up his arc Imma gonna be piiiiiissed.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 06, 2017, 06:45:21 PM
I wasn't even trying to force you into my point of view. Sorry if it sounds like I got carried away! I very much wanted to love Rogue one, and found a lot that was great, but the averageness of it all left me wanting. That's the reason i like debating its flaws.
*shrugs*

No worries! :)

Now though... Would you care to explain what arcs we have for each main character?  :D
Quite a few have none to speak of, in my eyes. It's a good "slice of life" movie in that respect, except that little deep change takes place in that time.

Would you also please tell me what you think Jyn's job is? Before she was in prison, what do you think her day to day life was like?

I'm understanding you liked those arcs, I'm curious as to what was in them, in your eyes, since I find so thin that I never teared up at anyone's death. I'm puzzled the gap in experience would be so wide.

Same! Actually, I was just thinking about how we got different things out of the movie, and mentally examining why I took what I took away from it. Maybe I'm filling in the story in my own head! I dunno!

Regardless, I haven't done a blog post for my main site in awhile, so I think explaining why I thought Jyn had a character arc in Rogue One (and what specifically made me think that) would be a fun exercise. So, yes! I'll give it an attempt in the next few days. Will link here when it's ready.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on January 06, 2017, 06:56:18 PM
@tebakutis great idea, but beware, my making tied comes from the lack of arc for others too. To me several characters were not needed in any way in the movie, besides their sometimes advancement of the plot. Saw was anecdotal, the pilot as well, the two pseudo Jedi were nothing beyond cool and homeless. Their sacrifice was surprising and not logical or even emotionally explained. They just come along for the ride, and die the same as they ever lived, without having bonded or altered others around them in any way.

The cast could have focuses on the cassia-Jyn-k2 trio and delve into them more (or poor, arcless Gaden) without hurting it at all.
A lot of the extra characters feel to me like they were here to pad the movie, to make it a bit more like the main line, where a large cast is supported by many movies.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Hedin on January 06, 2017, 09:17:15 PM
@Hedin : I feel like the SW universe will never catch up to the more thoughtful movies made by people like Wes Anderson, Jeff Nichols or C. Nolan (in my eyes). Which I find extremely puzzling as well. I mean, if you gave Cooper 3 or 8 movies to develop his character, you'd wear the poor man thin with a life of adventure and heart rending emotions, you'd know him like your brother.

The thing is I don't always need or want a thoughtful movie.  Arrival was great in that respect but sometimes I just want to have fun.  Star Wars mostly fills that aspect for me.  I find the overall world interesting and the events (most of the prequels aside) mostly lead to an enjoyable experience for me.  The lack of characterization and depth hurts those movies in your eyes but it never bothers me as the world and events are more than enough to sustain me.

I find Anderson's movies to be overly pretentious and dull (Rushmore aside), I have never seen a Nichols movie, and while I enjoy a lot of Nolan's work I can't pretend that they don't tend to have some pretty significant flaws themselves. But they work wonderfully for you!  It basically just comes down to everyone has something different they want to get out of the media they consume (whether it be games/books/tv shows/movies) and we just find the stuff that works for us.  It doesn't mean for me that I don't branch out and try something new every now and then but I know where my comfort zone is and I look for stuff that slides comfortably in that zone.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Nora on January 06, 2017, 10:00:51 PM
I might have given off the wrong impression. SW movies aren't not for me, and any Anderson or Nolan or X-Y isn't better for me. I enjoy various things for various reasons. I'm only saying the SW are never going to be like the others, that they can't be, it's not in their nature. It's a bit saddening because it's a universe with lots of potential, but I don't think it's so much in the characterisation, but in the acting and arcs. Kylo, Poe, Finn and Rey all have very promising arcs, I'm thrilled. As an actor, they all have good chemistry, and Adam Driver is playing so well he sets the scene almost in reality.
I don't know why I said 'puzzling'?
All I meant was to give exemples of movies that delve deeper into human nature, and character motivation and growth. The original SW have some of that, the scenes between Luke and Vader are great, but not very deep acting wise.
Now the new KR situation might change that (crossed fingers), but SW has too upbeat plots to focus on the human turmoils of its characters, that's for sure.

I remain convinced that Han Solo as a cliched character, works a 1000x better than Jyn Arso as a cliched character. The former is easier to follow than the last.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 07, 2017, 03:23:04 AM
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand it's done.

Thanks for the idea, Nora. I don't expect you to agree with me, but regardless, our discussion gave me a fun idea for a blog post. I had a blast writing this. And so, an explanation of why I loved Jyn's character arc...

https://tebakutis.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/dissecting-rogue-one-a-writing-exercise/ (https://tebakutis.wordpress.com/2017/01/07/dissecting-rogue-one-a-writing-exercise/)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: cupiscent on January 07, 2017, 09:09:35 AM
Great post! I was doing a lot of nodding as I went through, though for me, a core element of Jyn was less about resenting / hating the rebels, and more about having lost hope. Especially the line “It’s not a problem as long as you don’t look up” for me was less about being it in for herself, and more about the bigger things having no impact on her life grubbing in the dirt. She's lost hope that her life could be better. That the galaxy could be better. (That there could be people she can trust / rely on.) There's no room for that in the life that she has. So it was super powerful for me when she accepts a glimmer of hope back into her life, and shares it with others. Also it resonates so beautifully with the title of the first ever Star Wars, that her actions allow to happen. ;)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: ultamentkiller on January 08, 2017, 05:01:37 PM
Just saw this yesterday, expecting the best Star Wars movie to have been released.

3.5/5

The ending didn't do anything for me. It was just... Predictable? Boring? I only cared about one character surviving, because he was the only one I thought had a chance. So I winced when he died. Everyone else... Who cared? I felt no emotion almost the entire movie. There are only two things I gained from it. The weakness in the Death Star was put their on purpose, which could've been guessed without the movie. The crystals in lightsabers come from space, and lots of them were located on this planet. Okay? I'm assuming that's somehow going to be relevant to movies 8 and 9, because those lines were dropped so randomly and out of context that it screams, "Pay attention!" So pretty much anyone interested who hasn't seen it, I've been telling them the following. If you're a fan of the original trilogy, don't bother. You don't gain anything from this movie. It's not dark, so don't see it for that factor like I did. You will feel no emotions for most of the characters, because you know how it ends. However, if they've never seen the original trilogy, like the two people I went with, then they'll love it because they don't know where it's going to go.

The video that was posted a while back, I mostly agree with it. I thought a lot of those same things when reading this discussion as I went. I think that Vader did need to be their, but she's right about the last scene. It was more villain worship than anything else. If it had been shown in a way that impacted the main characters, it would've made sense. But it didn't.

I will not b watching this movie again unless it happens to be on in the background. Not worth it.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Lady Ty on January 19, 2017, 10:45:48 AM
Coming in late, having avoided all these comments, so finally saw Rogue One yesterday. I was apprehensive because, after Attack of the Clones, I stopped altogether and this was the first Star Wars I have seen since then.

First reaction was that it was great fun, I enjoyed the whole of the Jyn story, and all the special effects.  K2SO was magnificent and the glorious space battle and the theme music took me back to the first Star Wars total awesomeness.  The brief appearance of R2D2 and C3PO raised a few cheers in the cinema, lovely touch, and the Darth Vader rampage was tops.


Having read all the comments and much enjoyed @tebakutis dissection, a few things are clearer.  I understand Saw Gerrara's place later in the story which had seemed rather unnecessary. I didn't realise Tarkin was CGI, which is really dumb of me, because Peter Cushing was star of my youth. It just didn't sink in and then, in the moment of shocked sadness at suddenly seeing Carrie Fisher, I completely forgot to even question how she was there.

I think you need to be Star Wars aware to get the full benefit of so many touches in this film, and I probably didn't pick up on some things or recognise characters who become more relevant later, but with faith restored, now I will watch The Force Awakens.



Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Elfy on January 19, 2017, 10:50:44 AM
Just saw this yesterday, expecting the best Star Wars movie to have been released.

3.5/5

The ending didn't do anything for me. It was just... Predictable? Boring? I only cared about one character surviving, because he was the only one I thought had a chance. So I winced when he died. Everyone else... Who cared? I felt no emotion almost the entire movie. There are only two things I gained from it. The weakness in the Death Star was put their on purpose, which could've been guessed without the movie. The crystals in lightsabers come from space, and lots of them were located on this planet. Okay? I'm assuming that's somehow going to be relevant to movies 8 and 9, because those lines were dropped so randomly and out of context that it screams, "Pay attention!" So pretty much anyone interested who hasn't seen it, I've been telling them the following. If you're a fan of the original trilogy, don't bother. You don't gain anything from this movie. It's not dark, so don't see it for that factor like I did. You will feel no emotions for most of the characters, because you know how it ends. However, if they've never seen the original trilogy, like the two people I went with, then they'll love it because they don't know where it's going to go.

The video that was posted a while back, I mostly agree with it. I thought a lot of those same things when reading this discussion as I went. I think that Vader did need to be their, but she's right about the last scene. It was more villain worship than anything else. If it had been shown in a way that impacted the main characters, it would've made sense. But it didn't.

I will not b watching this movie again unless it happens to be on in the background. Not worth it.
I took the tning about the crystals to be a nod to Alan Dean Foster's A Splinter of the Mind's Eye (the first official Star Wars sequel novel) which deals with them. It suffered from prequelitis in that the audience already knows the outcome, so it loses a lot of tension right from the get go.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 19, 2017, 03:12:47 PM
I think you need to be Star Wars aware to get the full benefit of so many touches in this film, and I probably didn't pick up on some things or recognise characters who become more relevant later, but with faith restored, now I will watch The Force Awakens.

Despite my complaints about The Force Awakens, I still enjoyed it. If nothing else, the new characters make the movie worth watching. Rey, Finn, and Poe are awesome.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: The Gem Cutter on January 19, 2017, 03:59:12 PM
I took the tning about the crystals to be a nod to Alan Dean Foster's A Splinter of the Mind's Eye (the first official Star Wars sequel novel) which deals with them. It suffered from prequelitis in that the audience already knows the outcome, so it loses a lot of tension right from the get go.

I thought that too, and remember that book very clearly - it's very old! I disagree about the loss of tension - it's there, it's just shifted from "What will the outcome be?" to other questions "What will be the price?" "How will they arrive at that outcome?" and "Who will be instrumental?" That shift and their failure to fully account for it are the root cause of our underwhelming reactions to some aspects.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 25, 2017, 02:04:10 AM
Loosely related (since it came up during a discussion of people working on Rogue One) but ... holy ****.

I am among the many, many people who have labored under a false assumption for more than twenty years.

The Death Star's trench is vertical, not horizontal.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/youve-been-wrong-about-where-the-death-star-trench-was-1791582520 (http://io9.gizmodo.com/youve-been-wrong-about-where-the-death-star-trench-was-1791582520)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: The Gem Cutter on January 25, 2017, 02:17:31 AM
Interesting article. "Man, no one ever pays attention in meetings. Not even in Star Wars." Totally true :)
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: tebakutis on January 27, 2017, 05:37:37 AM
Oh hai, novels that fill in lots of time we skimmed in the movie.

Two new Star Wars YA novels are coming out. Rebel Rising will explore Jyn's time as a teen working with Saw Gerrera. Guardians of the Whills (middle-grade ... really?) will follow Chirrut and Baze (or blind awesome guy and giant gun guy, if you missed their names) as they resist the Empire's takeover of Jedha.

http://www.starwars.com/news/new-novels-rebel-rising-and-guardians-of-the-whills-will-explore-rogue-one-backstories (http://www.starwars.com/news/new-novels-rebel-rising-and-guardians-of-the-whills-will-explore-rogue-one-backstories)

This is a bit odd. The YA Jyn Erso book I get, but middle-grade Chirrut and Baze? Interesting choice, considering how the movie ends...
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: JCkang on March 08, 2017, 07:09:23 PM
Late to the party on this thread, but I thought I'd add my two cents.  I saw it twice.  First time, I was disappointed by the lack of the crawl (even though they'd announced that) and the music that only hinted at the Star Wars theme. It just didn't feel like a Star Wars movie from the start.  Then, the first few scenes were all over the place.  I had a hard time connecting with the characters, and was beginning to worry that this was Phantom Menace plot chaos, all over again.

The raid on the archives made it all worth it, and, after Episodes 1-3 watered down Anakin Skywalker, it was good to see the Vader put back in Darth Vader for that climactic scene.

The second time, I enjoyed it so much more.  The character chemistry was great.  Donnie Yen and K2 steal the show.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: Peat on May 14, 2017, 06:24:42 PM
Finally watched it with the wife. She didn't like it. I was a bit wishy-washy on it. I didn't really get into the characters for most of the movie - I think there there was maybe too much story for one movie.
Title: Re: Rogue One -- It's here!
Post by: JMack on May 14, 2017, 08:42:39 PM
I often find that movies linked strongly to other movies and steeped in expectations work better the second viewing and forward. I stop worrying about lol the things that bother me, and let the movie just be whatever it is.

For example, and yes, this is a ridiculous example:
Mamma Mia:
Viewing 1: These actors can't sing!
Viewing 2: Look at the actors ham it up!  ;D

Meanwhile, it doesn't always work.
The Phantom Menace
Viewing 1: OMG, this kid can't act! And this script is awful. And medichlorides(or whatever)!
Viewing 2: OMG, this kid can't act! And this script is awful. And medichlorides(or whatever)!