November 20, 2019, 07:54:40 AM

Author Topic: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)  (Read 7066 times)

Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2019, 07:26:10 AM »
GRRM in an interview before the start of S8 explicitly said that he had no idea how the show was going to end.  I really don't think he would throw away character development like that, and he can reach a bittersweet ending without it being utterly stupid, which this ending was.  I don't care if all of them died or how tragic the ending might be, it has to make some sense within the internal logic of the story, and this just doesn't, not just because there's not enough time, because there's absolutely nothing to precipitate the character changes, plus theres nooooo way he's gonna have the battle of winterfell occur at that time in the story in that way.  I give him way more credit than that.  A twist requires a set-up not a "WTF was that?"

LOST didn't have a terrible ending because it was big, it had an unsatisfying ending because it was run by JJ Abrams.  It came out that they had absolutely no idea where they were going with the show and just made the ending up on the spot, and it shows.  JJ Abrams whole thing is "wouldn't it be weird if..." there's a polar bear in the jungle! There's the numbers!  Misleading people into thinking there's something deep going on when he's really just generating intrigue with no punch line.  None of his stuff makes any damn sense.

BSG was great until the last half of the last season, when they too couldn't figure out how to tie up all their lost threads.  What was the deal with Starbuck returning?  Do the writers even know?  But it wasn't even a fraction as god-awful as LOST. 

I can't comment on the other shows b/c I didn't see them.  But I think it really comes down to two things: Pantsing doesn't really work for mysteries that span years of TV seasons.  and proper plotting has to also plot character transformations and make sense within the world.

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2019, 12:51:17 PM »
Have to disagree with you Bea.

Spoiler for Hiden:
There are new powerful women whose arcs are rising to take their place, these being Arya, Sansa, and the last Grayjoy. The villain must always be the most powerful force, and Cersei played that role well, but her time on the stage is over. Raising another woman to take her place is many things, but it is not disempowering. Since Arya defeated the King of Winter (Ice), I foresee she may be the bane of Fire, as well.

I liken the Mother of Dragons to Anakin Skywalker, only this time, we entered the story not knowing how it would end - and seeing a beloved character fall without knowing ahead of time is a very different experience.

I enjoyed the battle, in that it was portrayed the way battles really are: an unholy mess.

As for Drogon's success -
Spoiler for Hiden:
Bronn called it. Catching dragons unaware is one thing. But a lasting principle of war is that anything that does not move is destroyed. Anchored ships and anchored scorpions do not move.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Yara and Sansa aren't on screen; Arya is a poster girl for the "Women must give up their femininity to be strong" trope. I get why women would be disappointed about where they've gone with this, even if the path is logical. I'm somewhat disappointed myself, even if I personally found it clear that Dany was going to be a mad queen from the start of this season.

I also make Bea very right about the speed with which she's gone from ruthless tyrant to genocidal madwoman. Her trusted advisers may no longer be there to talk her out of things, but they were talking her out of excessive brutality against the powerful opposing her, not indulging in collateral damage in an already won battle. And if she's gone berserk, why not just go straight to Cersei after she took out the static targets?

Speaking of which - it makes sense to me that she'd make relatively short work of a fleet at anchor, just not that the ballistas which were so accurate that they took out a dragon with three arcing shots (I assume arcing or the dragons would have seen them first) suddenly become Storm Trooper level of effective. It doesn't follow internal consistency to me.
Regarding ballistas and scorpions vs. dragons, with all primitive ranged weapons up to the mid-1800s, there is a huge difference in effectiveness between volley fire and aimed shots. The difference is even more pronounced on moving targets, which typically only move in 2 dimensions. Flying targets move in three. Similarly, an ambush of volley fire (a tactic still used against aerial targets today) is even more effective. But once the flyer knows where the weapons are, they're doomed. Static things die. Hence the wheels on almost every anti-air platform dating back to the 1940s.

Don't get me wrong, the shock of the scene was not worth the drama that could have been developed. I wouldn't call it excellent storytelling. But throughout the series, we have seen Tywin's comment of Aegon "changing the rules" played out over and over. The Night King changed the rules. Robb Stark did. Then the Lannisters did by shifting from warfare to treachery. The dragons changed the rules, then scorpions did, then Denarys read some history and discovered the counter for them, and it worked, just as it did in Westeros' history. So yes, some apparent inconsistency - that is actually just surprising.

People keep looking at this series and misapplying medieval warfare. "Why would you not have your troops INSIDE the walls?" has been applied to both Winterfell and King's Landing. The not-that-complicated answer:  DRAGONS and the need to be able to fix and finish them by forcing the dragon-rider to either not support the main effort or risk the loss of the dragon. Denarys won by realizing that destroying the scorpions WAS the main effort. I don't know why she bothered with the fleet at all, actually.

I've now seen the odd battle tactics explained as both the result of trying to apply Medieval Tactical Thinking vs an enemy they don't know, and as Leaving Behind Medieval Tactical Thinking vs a new enemy.

That merely reinforces my belief that the writers simply haven't explained or made clear what is happening via the internal logic of the story, which is the most important logic anyway. It is simply one big rorshach test.

Also I'm well aware of the efficacy of volley fire vs single aimed shots, which is why the internal logic is all the more borked by three single shots at extreme range being far, far more effective than a volley against a target at close range.

Offline Brand J Alexander

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2019, 04:03:56 PM »
Just watched the most recent episode last night. First and foremost, why does Cersei get such a good death? She's beheaded, burned and tortured people, yet she is allowed to die in the arms of the man she loves. Dany goes insane and Cersei gets an emotional death while being comforted, WTH? They actually diminished Jaime's death and character with that scene while improving hers. They wanted you to feel sympathy for her. I don't want sympathy I want a fitting death. Or even better permanent imprisonment with the nuns. I would have accepted Cersei marrying the Night King raising her children from the grave and ruling the 7 kingdoms as the undead high queen more than her getting a death that good.

Clegane bowl I think was done well. I don't understand how the writers saw the clear path to his story's end but completely missed the mark on so many others.

I'm mostly just watching to finish the story now. The Battle for Winterfell left me completely turned off by the story shift. Although, it made me understand why HBO called it Game of Thrones and not A Song of Ice and Fire. They didn't want the magic of ice and fire. They wanted the reality tv show drama at the core. They just used the other stuff as the backdrop and discarded it as soon as they could to move on to Big Brother King's Landing.

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Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2019, 01:49:58 AM »
I can't really watch it from here in the Amazon, I'm just sort of watching the end of the season through hilarious internet memes:

Spoiler for Hiden:

















« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 01:55:48 AM by J.R. Darewood »

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2019, 01:55:09 AM »
I need to find a good photoshopper to help me with getting the internet to recognise the fact that Euron is in fact Bennett from Commando. Except less interested in man-man love.

Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2019, 10:34:19 AM »
I never really got into the show because I was too much of a book purist, but I've been reading summaries to keep track of what happens just out of interest. It's pretty obvious D&D aren't the writers George is, and even George has been struggling with the later books. He writes fantastic characters but his plotting can be very messy and I have a feeling that if 'A Dream of Spring' ever comes out the ending won't be all that great.

That said, I'm sure it will be better than whatever we see tonight.

I was never a fan of 'Game of Thrones' but it brought fantasy into the mainstream and we got a lot of fantasy adaptations getting greenlit because of it, so I'll always be grateful to it for that.

Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2019, 01:18:50 PM »
It's pretty obvious D&D aren't the writers George is,

Ok my last case against this sentiment: you can almost see exactly where D&D diverged in the writing scene by scene early on then episode by episode and now entire season.

1) Brans storyline
2) Character teleportation
3) Maggy the Frog's prophecy

Offline Neveesandeh

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2019, 06:13:15 PM »
So I found a clip of the burning of King's Landing on youtube and... wow. I mean, I know it kind of came out of nowhere and probably would have benefitted from coming after a few more episodes but it's an amazing scene. It's just so brutal.

Got to feel sorry for all those people who named their kids after Daenerys, though.

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2019, 11:02:32 AM »
Spoiler for Hiden:
Stayed up to watch it.

Nice dramatic start. All set up for big drama and...

Then skip to vanilla ending.

It was alright I guess, but could have been so much more
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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2019, 08:51:15 PM »
^ Yep, I agree.
It wasn't as bad I almost expected hehe, but it could have been so much more!
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Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2019, 11:03:16 PM »
I'm not going to watch it, but quick question:

Spoiler for Hiden:
Were the freefolk spoilers correct in indicating that Sam invents democracy out of left field based on some book he found?

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2019, 11:12:43 PM »
I'm not going to watch it, but quick question:

Spoiler for Hiden:
Were the freefolk spoilers correct in indicating that Sam invents democracy out of left field based on some book he found?

Spoiler for Hiden:
He suggests democracy; I don't think its suggests where he finds the idea though. Why the hell someone who was part of an organisation selecting their HBiC through one man, one vote, would need a book to think of democracy is beyond me anyway.
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Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2019, 05:45:42 AM »
I'm not going to watch it, but quick question:

Spoiler for Hiden:
Were the freefolk spoilers correct in indicating that Sam invents democracy out of left field based on some book he found?

Spoiler for Hiden:
He suggests democracy; I don't think its suggests where he finds the idea though. Why the hell someone who was part of an organisation selecting their HBiC through one man, one vote, would need a book to think of democracy is beyond me anyway.

Good point

Offline J.R. Darewood

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Offline Magnus Hedén

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2019, 08:05:51 AM »
I can't with this writing anymore. So many cringes this season (and 7, for that matter).

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