July 21, 2019, 10:01:24 AM

Author Topic: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)  (Read 3846 times)

Offline Saraband

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2019, 05:07:08 PM »
Whoever was involved in planning the Battle for Winterfell, for a start. I cannot imagine Jon Snow, Tyrion, Greyworm, Jorah or almost anyone in that room saying: "We don't know exactly what to expect, so let's open with a blind kamikaze Dothraki charge. Also, artillery on the walls? That's too easy, we need a bit of adrenaline, so put them out front and send a single salvo after our cavalry is already charging to its death."

Again, no one batting an eye-lid about getting stuffed in a crypt full of dead people, when all the people I know were like "something's going to happen in the crypt" prior to the episode. Jon and others know the White Walkers bring dead people back to life.

Last episode, given what Cersei's done, conducting "diplomatic" talks in front of a city with various ballistae pointing at you, like everyone's expecting Cersei to respect any rules. I mean, she has the upper hand through that whole exchange, there's no reason for her not to take that chance, since Daenerys and those around her could only run away at that point, being too few to fight. I understand the whole thing was to provoke Daenerys into battle, but Cersei is as smart as she is vile. If she had them in her hand, like she did with the sparrow and all the others, she would've used the opportunity.

There's a succession of small things which ignore Tyrion's intellect from previous seasons, just to make sure that their stupidity suits a narrative of putting Daenerys against the wall to see if she truly becomes mad when cornered, which seems to be the build up so far (in which she'll either make a sacrifice for the sake of everyone, or go fully mental.)

These may be irrelevant details to some, I understand that. The thing to me is that the show was brilliant because of how well some of the details were flashed out, how it all made sense if you kept each characters motivations in mind. Now? It feels like everything is just happening in order to fulfill plot points. Characters serving a plot, in a story that was interesting because of the complex characters (to me).
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Offline Peat

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2019, 05:18:41 AM »
The internal consistency needed to underpin a story's logic is never an irrelevant detail; I was just curious as to which elements you were looking at.

I feel like I agree with most of it except to note that Jon Snow seems to spend most of the show being an idiot so I can believe him continuing to be one.

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2019, 08:11:48 PM »
Oooh they did the cardinal sin of shouting "fire" to loose the arrows! Oooh bad boys!!
 ;D

I didn't like it, sorry.
I don't know if it was their purpose, but
Spoiler for Hiden:
they managed to destroy all strong women of the series, they reduced them to cliches and fixed roles. Emotions. My opinion.
Also, the destruction of the city in this scale was a lazy plot, an easy way out.
I'm really disappointed.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 09:13:11 PM by ScarletBea »
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Offline Peat

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2019, 11:13:27 PM »
I'm torn. I liked it in its own right and as an obvious culmination of where they've been heading for the last series, but in terms of the larger arc, it feels so rushed and forced. With regards to what Bea said, and apologies if it sounds dismissive of those particular disappointments, everything feels like cliches now. It is an unfortunate end for something that took giant swings at those cliches and let events play out at their own pace. The levels of fan discontent are always going to be high when the manner of a story changes so late.

A few more specific points

Spoiler for Hiden:
Being that guy who complains about combat realism gets old but the way that Dany's dragons went from being the Iron Fleet's bitches to all of a sudden destroying the entire thing was not good storytelling.

I'm not sure how I feel about Dany's descent into Mad Tyrant status, but I did think the moment where it was clear she'd won but she was ready to keep on destroying was done well. Good dramatic moment.

Arya's arc might by my favourite thing about the show right now; hopefully her decision that there's more to life than revenge has some meaning in the next episode. The Old Gods knows somebody needs to bring some sanity to the party right now.

I thought Jaime would go out in sacrifice, but I didn't think he'd go out protecting her. Ach well.

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Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2019, 01:43:42 AM »
Have to disagree with you Bea.

Spoiler for Hiden:
There are new powerful women whose arcs are rising to take their place, these being Arya, Sansa, and the last Grayjoy. The villain must always be the most powerful force, and Cersei played that role well, but her time on the stage is over. Raising another woman to take her place is many things, but it is not disempowering. Since Arya defeated the King of Winter (Ice), I foresee she may be the bane of Fire, as well.

I liken the Mother of Dragons to Anakin Skywalker, only this time, we entered the story not knowing how it would end - and seeing a beloved character fall without knowing ahead of time is a very different experience.

I enjoyed the battle, in that it was portrayed the way battles really are: an unholy mess.

As for Drogon's success -
Spoiler for Hiden:
Bronn called it. Catching dragons unaware is one thing. But a lasting principle of war is that anything that does not move is destroyed. Anchored ships and anchored scorpions do not move.
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Offline Jake Baelish

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2019, 06:37:44 AM »
I thought the episode in itself was REALLY good (aside from the sudden uselessness of the Iron Fleet and scorpions). The ends for certain characters were done well mostly (even if I had to juggle with not being disappointed they weren't exactly how I had hoped/imagined).

But, I felt this episode more than any other was missing a whole episode of build up immediately prior that would've justified some bizarre character decisions that don't sit well. I was so baffled that I came up with how I'd personally fix it with an Episode 4.5.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Missandei isn’t killed at the end of Ep4, but is captured. Rhaegal is killed by Euron (though maybe missing a few shots...), the episode ends.

New Ep5 begins with Dany distraught over death of another of her ‘children’, near inconsolable, she is ready to lash out and burn the Red Keep to nothing. Varys and Tyrion advise strongly against it, claiming Dany should remain calm for Missandei (and add that Missandei would not wish her to do anything extreme either). Dany continues a downward spiral throughout the episode.

Varys meets Jon and tells him his wishes (in a quiet room, not out on the beach in front of everyone), but Jon rejects as he does.

Tyrion, Jon and Varys continue to push for negotiation to avoid the devastation of war. And to try to secure Missandei’s safety. Dany, very reluctantly, acquiesces.

Dany and company (now with Jon) meet Cersei at the gate to King’s Landing and events go much as they did in the show (so rather than 2 sudden tragedies and 10 mins later a massacre of epic proportions, we have half an episode of attempting to deal with Rhaegal’s death, trying the ‘right thing’ then seeing her best friend murdered – and we’ll have ‘felt’ that conflict and had time to see it play out).

Dany is furious. At Dragonstone she storms out leaving Tyrion, Varys and Jon alone. Varys departs shortly after. Tyrion and Jon discuss Varys’ talk of treason. Jon tells Tyrion if he doesn’t tell Dany, then he will tell her himself (this negates the idiocy of Tyrion ratting out Varys knowing Dany is not mentally stable - Jon is fond of Tyrion but has no reason to trust Varys, so he'd be doing this for Tyrion).

Tyrion sadly informs Dany of Varys’ actions. She reacts accordingly.

We see Jaime get taken prisoner by unsullied soldiers (so it isn’t just a convenient turn up next episode).

Jon tries to comfort Dany and this scene goes much as it did in actual Ep5. The episode ends with Dany claiming it will have to be fear.

The Battle of King’s Landing episode then proceeds much as it did. Only now we’ve seen Dany’s complete psychological breakdown and it isn’t such a SUDDEN departure from the ‘Mhysa’ the ‘Breaker of Chains’. Some might think it makes it too obvious – but surely most have known the Mad Queen was on the cards from Season 4 at the latest if not earlier. And the actual torching of all the city would be more justifiable if the seeds had been laid more carefully and been allowed to breathe; I think the act of destroying EVERYTHING would also be shocking regardless.

I actually have no issue with Dany's arc and her become the series super-villain, it just hit sonic speed this season and it isn't that believable.

All a bit futile and I clearly have too much time on my hands at the moment, but I enjoyed typing that. Does anyone else see the need for something like this here more than ever?
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Offline Elfy

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2019, 06:47:30 AM »
Have to disagree with you Bea.

Spoiler for Hiden:
There are new powerful women whose arcs are rising to take their place, these being Arya, Sansa, and the last Grayjoy. The villain must always be the most powerful force, and Cersei played that role well, but her time on the stage is over. Raising another woman to take her place is many things, but it is not disempowering. Since Arya defeated the King of Winter (Ice), I foresee she may be the bane of Fire, as well.

I liken the Mother of Dragons to Anakin Skywalker, only this time, we entered the story not knowing how it would end - and seeing a beloved character fall without knowing ahead of time is a very different experience.

I enjoyed the battle, in that it was portrayed the way battles really are: an unholy mess.

As for Drogon's success -
Spoiler for Hiden:
Bronn called it. Catching dragons unaware is one thing. But a lasting principle of war is that anything that does not move is destroyed. Anchored ships and anchored scorpions do not move.

Spoiler for Hiden:
There's a couple of things about Drogon's success that not many people have picked up on. He's the biggest, strongest, fastest of Dany's dragons. He's her favourite, and she rides him into battle. Rhaegal had no rider when he was shot. Drogon's evaded the scorpion bolts before, too.

As for Dany's 'change' I saw that a long way out, books as well as show.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Ever since she got the dragons and they proved to be an effective weapon, she's used them that way. Whenever she doesn't get what she wants, she just burns it down. She's been isolated and lost since she went to Westeros. She doesn't feel like a Westerosi, she was born and raised in Essos. She bore the Westerosi, especially the southerners, no love. These people killed her father and her brother, and then took her birthright. They forced her and her brother to beg for a living. They didn't welcome her as a saviour or a returning monarch. They gave credit to one of their own for things that she had paid a major part in. She now trusts only Drogon and Grey Worm. Westeros took everything else from her.
I will expand your TBR pile.

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2019, 07:59:46 AM »
I understand your points, where you're coming from....

However for me it just feels too disjointed from the previous seasons, the previous plots. It's not even "I don't believe they would act like that" on its own, because I think that with a little more story those acts would be justified.
It's like reading a 5-page summary of a 500-page book, where just the critical/action/shocking elements of the plot are described.

If the series had always been like this I wouldn't even mind... it's the change that I'm having trouble accepting.

(and I'm one of the few who didn't think that the Lost ending was bad!)
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Offline Peat

Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2019, 12:33:35 PM »
Have to disagree with you Bea.

Spoiler for Hiden:
There are new powerful women whose arcs are rising to take their place, these being Arya, Sansa, and the last Grayjoy. The villain must always be the most powerful force, and Cersei played that role well, but her time on the stage is over. Raising another woman to take her place is many things, but it is not disempowering. Since Arya defeated the King of Winter (Ice), I foresee she may be the bane of Fire, as well.

I liken the Mother of Dragons to Anakin Skywalker, only this time, we entered the story not knowing how it would end - and seeing a beloved character fall without knowing ahead of time is a very different experience.

I enjoyed the battle, in that it was portrayed the way battles really are: an unholy mess.

As for Drogon's success -
Spoiler for Hiden:
Bronn called it. Catching dragons unaware is one thing. But a lasting principle of war is that anything that does not move is destroyed. Anchored ships and anchored scorpions do not move.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Yara and Sansa aren't on screen; Arya is a poster girl for the "Women must give up their femininity to be strong" trope. I get why women would be disappointed about where they've gone with this, even if the path is logical. I'm somewhat disappointed myself, even if I personally found it clear that Dany was going to be a mad queen from the start of this season.

I also make Bea very right about the speed with which she's gone from ruthless tyrant to genocidal madwoman. Her trusted advisers may no longer be there to talk her out of things, but they were talking her out of excessive brutality against the powerful opposing her, not indulging in collateral damage in an already won battle. And if she's gone berserk, why not just go straight to Cersei after she took out the static targets?

Speaking of which - it makes sense to me that she'd make relatively short work of a fleet at anchor, just not that the ballistas which were so accurate that they took out a dragon with three arcing shots (I assume arcing or the dragons would have seen them first) suddenly become Storm Trooper level of effective. It doesn't follow internal consistency to me.

Offline Saraband

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2019, 03:57:07 PM »
This season is the celebration of fanfiction. This is just what it is. Someone trying to have fun with a source material but failing massively to understand it. The writers have opted for visual spectacle over story/character substance. I could have handled anything if it was well-written and respected the universe's own rules, not this shambolic mess.

Every female friend who I speak with about the show has been disappointed with the female character arcs, only exception usually being Sansa, but let's see what's in store for her in the finale - so you're definitely not alone Bea.

Anyway. It's been a few years invested into a relationship that is clearly coming to a sorry end for all involved, like many relationships. We will move on, those of us disappointed, and hope that GRRM may yet bring some solace if/when the books come out.
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Offline Elfy

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2019, 10:41:27 PM »
This season is the celebration of fanfiction. This is just what it is. Someone trying to have fun with a source material but failing massively to understand it. The writers have opted for visual spectacle over story/character substance. I could have handled anything if it was well-written and respected the universe's own rules, not this shambolic mess.

Every female friend who I speak with about the show has been disappointed with the female character arcs, only exception usually being Sansa, but let's see what's in store for her in the finale - so you're definitely not alone Bea.

Anyway. It's been a few years invested into a relationship that is clearly coming to a sorry end for all involved, like many relationships. We will move on, those of us disappointed, and hope that GRRM may yet bring some solace if/when the books come out.
I actually think its the opposite of fan fiction. Fan fiction is what will change what happened in the show, because that's largely what fan fiction does, when fans don't get the endings they wanted they write their own.
The show, whether people like it or not, is giving the audience the ending as imagined by GRRM. There have been a few changes (Sansa's arc is one), but most of the really big things are what GRRM told D&D would happen. I could see a lot of this going this way from the books. People also tend to have short memories about the reaction to the last 2 books of the series. They were not favourable. I personally didn't mind Dance, but Feast was an awful mess that Dance couldn't fix.
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Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2019, 02:42:39 AM »
This season is the celebration of fanfiction. This is just what it is. Someone trying to have fun with a source material but failing massively to understand it. The writers have opted for visual spectacle over story/character substance. I could have handled anything if it was well-written and respected the universe's own rules, not this shambolic mess.

Every female friend who I speak with about the show has been disappointed with the female character arcs, only exception usually being Sansa, but let's see what's in store for her in the finale - so you're definitely not alone Bea.

Anyway. It's been a few years invested into a relationship that is clearly coming to a sorry end for all involved, like many relationships. We will move on, those of us disappointed, and hope that GRRM may yet bring some solace if/when the books come out.
I actually think its the opposite of fan fiction. Fan fiction is what will change what happened in the show, because that's largely what fan fiction does, when fans don't get the endings they wanted they write their own.
The show, whether people like it or not, is giving the audience the ending as imagined by GRRM. There have been a few changes (Sansa's arc is one), but most of the really big things are what GRRM told D&D would happen. I could see a lot of this going this way from the books. People also tend to have short memories about the reaction to the last 2 books of the series. They were not favourable. I personally didn't mind Dance, but Feast was an awful mess that Dance couldn't fix.

@Elfy that might have been true for a couple of things in earlier seasons (Hodors story) but they are well beyond GRRM's notes and GRRM has said a long while ago that he has no idea how the television series will end. In earlier seasons he even wrote an episode or two but GRRM had no involvement in S8, and I'm not sure what his level of involvement was in S7 but he seems to have tapped out of the show some time ago

I also think S8 has some basic storytelling faux pas that it's highly unlikely a seasoned storyteller would make
Spoiler for Hiden:
killing the Night King before the climax, building character arcs only to randomly reverse them 
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 02:48:33 AM by J.R. Darewood »

Offline J.R. Darewood

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2019, 02:53:18 AM »
(and I'm one of the few who didn't think that the Lost ending was bad!)

You're dead to me.

(jk)

Offline The Gem Cutter

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2019, 06:28:55 AM »
Have to disagree with you Bea.

Spoiler for Hiden:
There are new powerful women whose arcs are rising to take their place, these being Arya, Sansa, and the last Grayjoy. The villain must always be the most powerful force, and Cersei played that role well, but her time on the stage is over. Raising another woman to take her place is many things, but it is not disempowering. Since Arya defeated the King of Winter (Ice), I foresee she may be the bane of Fire, as well.

I liken the Mother of Dragons to Anakin Skywalker, only this time, we entered the story not knowing how it would end - and seeing a beloved character fall without knowing ahead of time is a very different experience.

I enjoyed the battle, in that it was portrayed the way battles really are: an unholy mess.

As for Drogon's success -
Spoiler for Hiden:
Bronn called it. Catching dragons unaware is one thing. But a lasting principle of war is that anything that does not move is destroyed. Anchored ships and anchored scorpions do not move.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Yara and Sansa aren't on screen; Arya is a poster girl for the "Women must give up their femininity to be strong" trope. I get why women would be disappointed about where they've gone with this, even if the path is logical. I'm somewhat disappointed myself, even if I personally found it clear that Dany was going to be a mad queen from the start of this season.

I also make Bea very right about the speed with which she's gone from ruthless tyrant to genocidal madwoman. Her trusted advisers may no longer be there to talk her out of things, but they were talking her out of excessive brutality against the powerful opposing her, not indulging in collateral damage in an already won battle. And if she's gone berserk, why not just go straight to Cersei after she took out the static targets?

Speaking of which - it makes sense to me that she'd make relatively short work of a fleet at anchor, just not that the ballistas which were so accurate that they took out a dragon with three arcing shots (I assume arcing or the dragons would have seen them first) suddenly become Storm Trooper level of effective. It doesn't follow internal consistency to me.
Regarding ballistas and scorpions vs. dragons, with all primitive ranged weapons up to the mid-1800s, there is a huge difference in effectiveness between volley fire and aimed shots. The difference is even more pronounced on moving targets, which typically only move in 2 dimensions. Flying targets move in three. Similarly, an ambush of volley fire (a tactic still used against aerial targets today) is even more effective. But once the flyer knows where the weapons are, they're doomed. Static things die. Hence the wheels on almost every anti-air platform dating back to the 1940s.

Don't get me wrong, the shock of the scene was not worth the drama that could have been developed. I wouldn't call it excellent storytelling. But throughout the series, we have seen Tywin's comment of Aegon "changing the rules" played out over and over. The Night King changed the rules. Robb Stark did. Then the Lannisters did by shifting from warfare to treachery. The dragons changed the rules, then scorpions did, then Denarys read some history and discovered the counter for them, and it worked, just as it did in Westeros' history. So yes, some apparent inconsistency - that is actually just surprising.

People keep looking at this series and misapplying medieval warfare. "Why would you not have your troops INSIDE the walls?" has been applied to both Winterfell and King's Landing. The not-that-complicated answer:  DRAGONS and the need to be able to fix and finish them by forcing the dragon-rider to either not support the main effort or risk the loss of the dragon. Denarys won by realizing that destroying the scorpions WAS the main effort. I don't know why she bothered with the fleet at all, actually.
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Offline Elfy

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Re: Game of Thrones season 8 (with spoilers)
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2019, 07:13:22 AM »
This season is the celebration of fanfiction. This is just what it is. Someone trying to have fun with a source material but failing massively to understand it. The writers have opted for visual spectacle over story/character substance. I could have handled anything if it was well-written and respected the universe's own rules, not this shambolic mess.

Every female friend who I speak with about the show has been disappointed with the female character arcs, only exception usually being Sansa, but let's see what's in store for her in the finale - so you're definitely not alone Bea.

Anyway. It's been a few years invested into a relationship that is clearly coming to a sorry end for all involved, like many relationships. We will move on, those of us disappointed, and hope that GRRM may yet bring some solace if/when the books come out.
I actually think its the opposite of fan fiction. Fan fiction is what will change what happened in the show, because that's largely what fan fiction does, when fans don't get the endings they wanted they write their own.
The show, whether people like it or not, is giving the audience the ending as imagined by GRRM. There have been a few changes (Sansa's arc is one), but most of the really big things are what GRRM told D&D would happen. I could see a lot of this going this way from the books. People also tend to have short memories about the reaction to the last 2 books of the series. They were not favourable. I personally didn't mind Dance, but Feast was an awful mess that Dance couldn't fix.

@Elfy that might have been true for a couple of things in earlier seasons (Hodors story) but they are well beyond GRRM's notes and GRRM has said a long while ago that he has no idea how the television series will end. In earlier seasons he even wrote an episode or two but GRRM had no involvement in S8, and I'm not sure what his level of involvement was in S7 but he seems to have tapped out of the show some time ago

I also think S8 has some basic storytelling faux pas that it's highly unlikely a seasoned storyteller would make
Spoiler for Hiden:
killing the Night King before the climax, building character arcs only to randomly reverse them 
George was contracted to write an episode a season in the earlier seasons, but that ended when it became clear that the show would outstrip the books. He also signed a contract early on in the piece to give the showrunners the outline of what was going to happen in the event that he couldn't keep pace with the show. He's known how the books, and I assume the show, would end from the beginning. I once attended a con he was at and he spoke about the process of writing the books and why 5 took so long. He was in Melbourne at the time so he explained it like this. For him writing the series is like taking a road trip from Melbourne to Perth without a detailed map. So he knows where he's started and he knows where he'll wind up, but he's going to encounter a few unforeseen obstacles along the way, everything from book 3 has been an unforeseen obstacle, but he always knew what the final destination would be. He also doesn't do happy endings. He's said all along that it will be at best a bittersweet ending. He also doesn't really care what people think about his choices as to what he does with characters. They're his characters, his story, so if other people don't like it, that's just tough.

Having said that I think the showrunners have done the show a disservice in electing to cram everything into a much shorter season. They were offered longer and given the marketing juggernaut the show has become, they would have been given a commensurate budget to do that justice, but they turned it down. The comments of one of them indicated that they kind of checked out a while back, I think, like George, the whole process has worn them down and burned them out and they just wanted to be done with it.

Sadly big shows like this don't seem to do satisfying endings: Lost, Battlestar Galactica, I'm in the minority, but I don't think the ending of Breaking Bad was particularly good, The Sopranos, Deadwood, even Rome, although that was largely caused by circumstances beyond their control.